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Ep. 81: What to do about teenage anxiety when they don't feel like they fit in
349 Plays10 months ago
Dr Beth Mosely MBE talks to Helen about feeling different as a teenager, rebelling agains her parents to figure out her own identity, and trying to fit in with her peer group. We talk about what causes anxiety in teenagers, how it manifests, and what we can do as parents to help teens accept themselves in order to manage anxious feelings.
We discuss:
- Social media - why it isn't to blame, and what to do about it
- Why filters in photos might be a good thing
- Feeling different
- Why teenagers don't really trust their friends
- Preparing our children for the reality of growing up in a world we didn't experience
- How to understand how your child sees the world, and support it when we don't get it
Who is Beth Mosley?
Dr Beth Mosley, MBE, is a clinical psychologist who works with children and adolescents, and the author of Happy Families, a family handbook to help parents understand their child's mental health, and how to help them with anxiety. Beth is often asked to appear on TV and radio to talk about mental health on BBC News, ITV, Channel 4 news, as well as BBC radio.
Her book Happy Families is available now (affiliate link).
More teenage parenting from Helen Wills:
Helen wills is a teen mental health podcaster and blogger at Actually Mummy, a resource for midlife parents of teens.
Thank you for listening! Subscribe to the Teenage Kicks podcast to hear new episodes. If you have a suggestion for the podcast please email [email protected].
There are already stories from fabulous guests about difficult things that happened to them as teenagers - including losing a parent, becoming a young carer, and being hospitalised with mental health problems - and how they overcame things to move on with their lives.
You can find more from Helen Wills on parenting teenagers on Instagram and Twitter @iamhelenwills.
For information on your data privacy please visit Zencastr's policy page
Please note that Helen Wills is not a medical expert, and nothing in the podcast should be taken as medical advice. If you're worried about yourself or a teenager, please seek support from a medical professional.
Transcript
Introduction to Teenage Challenges
00:00:00
Speaker
young people are using filters sometimes as a way of being able to talk about really difficult stuff, because if they can use a filter to improve how their face looks in that moment, they're often then talking about really vulnerable, difficult stuff. Welcome to the Teenage Kicks podcast, where we take the fear out of parenting or becoming a teenager.
00:00:34
Speaker
I'm Helen
Teenage Anxiety and Conversations
00:00:35
Speaker
Wills and every week I talk to someone who had a difficult time in the teenage years but came out the other side in a good place and has insight to offer to parents and young people who might be going through the same.
00:00:53
Speaker
Today I'm talking to Dr. Beth Mosley, MBE, about teenage anxiety. Beth is one of the UK's most experienced and respected consultant clinical psychologists and she works with children, young people and their families every day.
00:01:09
Speaker
She's written a new book, Happy Families. It's a practical guide to help parents understand what causes anxiety and how they can help their child to manage it, as well as one of the hardest things I find, how to broach difficult conversations with my kids around subjects like low mood or even self-harm. I don't know about you, but if you've ever asked your child how they're feeling when you're worried about them and they go, fine,
00:01:37
Speaker
it's then impossible to get under their skin and get them to say, well, you know, actually, I'm feeling a bit sad or a bit lonely. Am I right,
Parenting Challenges and Identity
00:01:45
Speaker
Beth? Absolutely. And having three kids myself, knowing all the theory about what you should do, being a psychologist, and actually having to do it myself as a parent are two completely different things. So particularly with my adolescence, it's been really tough.
00:02:03
Speaker
That just makes me feel so much better. I know, that's all parents say when I do parent workshops and I say, God, this is hard. This is what went wrong today for me. And everyone's like, wow, it goes wrong for you too. It makes me feel so much better.
00:02:19
Speaker
Yeah, oh gosh, if even the experts find this hard, then I could be really defeatist and say, what hope has the mortals among us parents got? But actually, I think there's a different way to look at it. And you'll tell me about this as we move into it, Beth.
00:02:35
Speaker
I try to let my kids know that life is hard for everyone at every stage, just as much as it is beautiful and fun and easy and exciting. We've just got to learn to take the rough with the smooth and do whatever we can on a given day. Take it one day at a time to support our own mental health.
00:02:58
Speaker
Beth, is it OK if we just start with a little bit about your own teenage years, what your childhood was like and anything you experienced that was difficult and how it's maybe shaped you? That's an enormous question I've just realised. I've said it all in one go. No, I mean, I think it's such an important part of who we become as adults, isn't it, our experience?
00:03:22
Speaker
as in childhood and adolescence and some of the things that happen to us when we're younger help us be different from what we've experienced and some of the things can be traps that we fall into in adulthood because we can end up going back into cycles or patterns of
00:03:38
Speaker
of being based on what we experienced. So for me really, I think I had a challenge as a young person about feeling really different from my peer group and trying to work out where I belonged. And some of that was driven by my parents choices really around religion. My parents were quite religious. They actually when I was a younger child were part of
00:04:01
Speaker
a religion called Jehovah's Witnesses. And so as a child, I felt exceptionally difficult at school. So for example, I wasn't allowed in assemblies, I wasn't allowed to celebrate Christmas birthdays. So I had to sit, I just still remember this when I was, you know, 10, 11, 12, such an important years for
00:04:25
Speaker
defining your identity, feeling part of a peer group. And they used to sit me outside the assembly hall on a chair. And everyone just used to walk in past me and out past me, like I'm the kind of oddest creature in the world. And, you know, there was no getting away from the sort of humiliation and
Adolescent Social Dynamics
00:04:45
Speaker
shame of just feeling so different. And I think I can really remember just that sense of
00:04:52
Speaker
kind of how do I handle the fact that this isn't the thing that defines me entirely, but it is, it just makes you stand out like a sore thumb, really. So I think going into adolescence, actually, at that point in time, my parents were no longer Jehovah's Witnesses, they actually left
00:05:11
Speaker
that. But they did kind of move from that to quite strict sort of more Brethren Christian type religion. And I guess what I struggle with is like the normal teenage rebellion that I needed to have as a teenager in order to kind of find my own way.
00:05:31
Speaker
was very much perceived as kind of outrageous and beyond normal. So, you know, you're trying to fit in with your peer group and make an kind of, you know, make your own person out of, you know, who you are, your experiences, and you're getting quite a difficult response from your family and trying to work out what's
00:05:57
Speaker
what's right. And what and I mean, I think adolescence, it's all about that you're hypersensitive to criticism, you're hypersensitive to being left down. That's all part of the biological nature of protecting you as an adolescent, because you need to be able to fit in with your peer group in order to essentially say safe. And, you know, if you think about gazelles out there, when they're teenage gazelles, the way they're gonna survive not being picked off by a lion is kind of
00:06:24
Speaker
fitting in with the crowd. So it's a biological instinct for teenagers to fit in with their teen crowd and to keep them safe. So, you know, you're trying to fit in, but you're also trying to stand out as being unique and, you know, cool or whatever it might be. And then you've got your kind of parents in the background who have quite, you know, different views on what's acceptable and what's not acceptable. And amidst all of that, you're trying to work out
00:06:54
Speaker
Am I okay? Am I a bad person? And, you know, who am I letting down? So that kind of, we all got that kind of critic inside us, haven't they? That kind of level of self-criticism. So if you've got it coming from peer groups and possibly your parents, it can feel really overwhelming. So I think I found that really challenging during my adolescent years and experienced quite a lot of bullying because of those differences, which were really obvious.
00:07:22
Speaker
And that's really tough because, you know, we know that bullying has such a big impact on young people's wellbeing, not just in the moment, but actually in their future as they go into adulthood. So I think that for me, you know, what got me through it all is my imagination, actually. Like I just was always a bit of a dreamer and good at sort of my dad's a great storyteller. And I think that kind of helped me.
00:07:51
Speaker
sort of get through and make sense of who I am outside of all of this noise. And just being able to dream about the things that you want to be able to achieve in life will do seems to help me
00:08:07
Speaker
get through
Digital Technology and Identity
00:08:08
Speaker
those more difficult times really, not be defined by them. Oh my god you just covered so much stuff. I felt a little bit tearful when you were describing being sat outside the hall with everyone parading past you. Schools were brutal in the past weren't they? I mean I know things still go wrong and aren't done perfectly in schools today but
00:08:30
Speaker
The more people I talked to who went to school around in the same sort of 10 to 20 year period that I did, the more I realised quite how much has changed because mental health just wasn't on the agenda, was it? No one really thought, oh, that kid who's being bullied for being crap at netball, which I'm talking about me here. That was me too. I'm so useless at sports and I think that's it. If you're not
00:08:54
Speaker
you kind of, if you haven't got something you're really good at, it can be really hard to find where you fit in, can't it? Yeah, well, and talking about having to experience the excruciating psychological pain of being very different
00:09:12
Speaker
alongside, it was what you said about you're already, you're trying to fit in, you're trying to stand out and attract attention so that you're valid and valuable to the, to the, to the herd. But you're also trying to figure out, are you a good enough person? And of course, that's what's going on. I mean, that goes on for all of us all of the time. And that's, we're probably come to talking about that, because that's certainly what drives my anxiety sometimes. But just,
00:09:40
Speaker
You've just kind of painted a picture for me of adolescence as being this sudden awakening of, I don't know, maybe a sense of shame that as a child you may never have had because as a child we're just born existing, aren't we? Yeah, I think it's really challenging if I think about how hard it can be for young people today because that experience of me sitting on a chair outside an assembly hall is
00:10:10
Speaker
is kind of a moment in time. And I think young people have, with the pressures of digital technology, they have that experience on the chair, you know, constantly throughout their day on a group chat, you know, I remember when my daughter said to me, Mom, you've got to get rid of all photos you've posted me of me on Facebook over the years, because there's a trend at the moment where people are just trawling through finding photos of each other when they were younger, and then kind of like, sort of,
00:10:40
Speaker
making them into something else and then posting them and kind of humiliating. I'm not taking off all my precious moments of you just to protect you from what's happening in your peer group. It just felt a brutal harshness and quite transient for some young people in their peer groups. They're just having to really be quite tough because
00:11:10
Speaker
world is, is, I mean, a really fascinating thing. I just, all of them were on a group chat, my daughter with her friends, and they all had these filters on their face, like funny filters, like they look like a fish, or they just look like something completely different. And I just said to my daughter, why have you got filters on your face? And she was like, well, it's to, it's to make sure if anyone screenshots and records the call, we're not actually identifiable.
00:11:36
Speaker
because, and so they're having like a friendly chat with one another. And, and it doesn't seem like there's any malice. I mean, it's a friendship group. But it's almost like they've all learned that actually, although this is a friendship group, some of the reality is one of us might scream, record this and post this and share it with, you know, however many other people, and we don't want our faces
00:11:59
Speaker
And it's like, there's a kind
Social Media's Impact on Teens and Parents
00:12:00
Speaker
of acceptance that that's just the way it is. And this is the tools we need to protect ourselves. And it just really was fascinating, because an adult looking into that, oh, you know, I actually asked loads of other adults, why do you think they do that? And, and they, they didn't work out the actual reason. And I thought, gosh, our children are really growing up with different challenges. But they do link back to identity, belonging, shame, being shamed by others within your peer group. And
00:12:28
Speaker
Quite often, I guess, young people not realising just how much impact they can have with a post that they do in a nanosecond. And I think, obviously, I work with young people struggling with their mental health. And often they're coming with things that have happened in these moments, which to that other person are completely irrelevant. And actually, but for that person on the receiving end are totally
00:12:55
Speaker
you know, destroying in that, you know, just completely that work that young person's world implodes. So yeah, it's a real really challenging for our adolescents at this point in time, I think, how to manage that. Well, what I feel like you're describing is that our kids are learning to live with mistrust.
00:13:19
Speaker
before they've even needed to live with mistrust. They're learning that they can't trust their friends even before they've had a really difficult experience with their friends. It's really hard. It is hard. I'm a psychologist here and I'm trying to work out what it means in terms of, is it a bad thing? Because
00:13:46
Speaker
If this is the reality of the world our young people are living in, and it's the reality of the world they may go into living as young adults, then are they being prepared for the reality of that world as horrible as that feels to us as the adults who grew up in a different world? So it's kind of like, I just, I can't quite work it out myself. If some of these things that we see as really bad are actually helpful protective adaptations,
00:14:15
Speaker
that they need to do in order to survive the world they're going to be living in. And if you think about the conversations about the role of AI technology and the environment, the challenges, we don't know what the future is going to look like. And so some of the things that we look at as being really bad right now actually could be quite healthy adaptations.
00:14:38
Speaker
because they are preparing our children for a future that may be very different from now and very different from our experience of growing up. So I think as a parent, you're juggling all that around in your mind when you're trying to work out what do I, what guidance do I give my kids? You know, how do I actually help them in this situation?
00:14:59
Speaker
because I don't have all the answers and that's really scary. I mean it really is because we want to be kind of wise and help protect our children and we can often feel quite out of our depth in that area.
00:15:13
Speaker
Yeah, completely. And it comes up again and again in the discussions that I have with parents of children who are worried about their teenagers. And I will say that the vast majority of parents that I speak to and work with are
00:15:32
Speaker
anti-social media. Social media is the bad guy. It's the cause of all the problems. We just need to control the heck out of social media and prevent our kids from accessing it.
00:15:44
Speaker
Then there are the other parents who realize that social media isn't a thing in its own right. It is part of our lives and it's an integral part of our children's lives and will be forevermore. What I think the issue is, is that as parents who didn't grow up with social media, we don't have our own experiences of how to
00:16:09
Speaker
be resilient and strong and cope with what goes on on social media. So we're effectively trying to teach our kids how to live with social media and we're beginners ourselves, which is always going to feel really out of our depth. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it is a massive challenge. And I speak to lots of young people and they're often quite keen to make the point that
00:16:39
Speaker
Social media is something they find. Well, it's like you said, it's a part of their lives. They don't see it as this bad thing or this good thing. It's just, you know, the thing that's in their life and they really value elements of it. And I think they find it really annoying when we as adults kind of almost blame it for the problems.
00:17:03
Speaker
And I suppose it's the challenge we have in life at the moment, isn't it? How do you get that balance between acknowledging the good things that something brings whilst also kind of acknowledging the challenges it brings? And if we just write it off as all being bad, you know, we're not going to be particularly helpful to our teenagers to try and navigate that world because they're never going to come to us and say, God, you know what, this thing went wrong for me today.
00:17:29
Speaker
on social media or with my friendship group because they just know the response they're going to get from us. Told you so. Yeah, exactly. That's why I shouldn't be on it. And I think that's the bit that I've had to learn as a parent to sort of park my own judgment and reservations and be way more curious and open-minded about elements of stuff that I just naturally want to go
00:17:59
Speaker
Yeah, that's a problem. Yeah, that's terrible.
00:18:02
Speaker
And like, TikTok has been a big learning curve for me, because obviously, you know, everyone's like, well, if you're gonna write a book, you need to get on TikTok. And you need to get on Instagram. And it's like, oh my goodness me, it's like a whole other world. And I just discovered, you know, I've always been like filters, you know, they're like, that's not great. And actually, I found out that like having a little bit of a filter to smooth out your wrinkles and make your teeth just not
00:18:31
Speaker
you know, look quite as yellow as they actually are. It's actually quite a helpful thing when you're trying to record something which you know, loads of people are going to look at because it sort of frees you up from not worrying about what your face looks like. Because you can actually then just focus on the content. And it just makes you realise how we're all so kind of self conscious and how
00:18:54
Speaker
Yeah, there are massive expectations. And
Body Image and Vulnerability
00:18:57
Speaker
I started looking at a lot more of young people's content and realizing that young people are using filters sometimes as a way of being able to talk about really difficult stuff. Because if they don't have to, if they can use a filter to improve how their face looks in that moment, they're often then talking about really vulnerable, difficult stuff.
00:19:18
Speaker
And it just really made me think actually the filter sort of a shield to enable them to open up and be more vulnerable. It just gave me a completely different perspective. And yeah, and it just enabled me to actually have completely different different conversations with my teenage daughter about it all. And she really opened up and was able we were able to try and learn from her about different things. And, and I just found it so valuable. But before I'd just been
00:19:46
Speaker
that's all not great. You know, and it was really eye opening and it gave me a completely different view and understanding of some of the challenges that young people are facing. So I just yeah, curiosity and just parking the judgment and our own emotional response to things can often
00:20:07
Speaker
as a parent, just give you a massive gateway into actually having completely different conversations with our adolescents and learning as well, like opening our eyes to different ways of viewing things and understanding things.
00:20:22
Speaker
Yes, oh my God, that is such a good way of putting it because, I mean, it's great in some respects, the mental health advocacy around social media is you shouldn't have to change how you look, how you look as fine, you're given what you're given. Just been talking about this on another podcast that's going out.
00:20:46
Speaker
around the same time about boys' body image and the whole practice of cutting and bulking, which I knew nothing about, but it sounded terrifying, but it's about limiting and changing and restricting how you take calories in in order to bulk up muscle.
00:21:05
Speaker
And the message that is out there to combat all of that is you're born the way you're born, you stay healthy, and that's enough. If people don't like the fact that you have a mole on your chin, then that's their problem, not yours. You're perfectly beautiful as you are.
00:21:21
Speaker
But that's a really good way of looking at it, that if you feel self-conscious about your appearance for whatever reason, you don't have to wait until you've got your mental health completely straight with that and you're ready to accept yourself exactly as you are before you have a voice. It's a brilliant way of looking at it. Yeah, and I think that's really tough. I mean,
00:21:48
Speaker
I'm 48 and I'm a pretty confident person, but I still worry about how the fat looks on the top of my legs. I worry about what I look like. I'm not a really self-conscious person. I think it's really hard to
00:22:10
Speaker
have that expectation that it's okay to be okay and who you are. I think as much as that is absolutely the message that we want everyone to feel and believe in, it's really hard to actually do it in real life, isn't it? And I think if you're an adolescent, even harder, because you're wired, your brain is wired to care about this stuff,
00:22:37
Speaker
So it's a, it's a really healthy message. And I love seeing things on Instagram and TikTok, where people show, you know, me sitting naturally versus me sitting in a pose, you know, all of those, those kind of influences who are brave enough to go, actually, this is what I really look like. Yeah. I mean, this is what I look like when I'm posing. I just think that's so wonderful, because it really shows, you know,
00:23:02
Speaker
the truth behind some of those more posed pictures. And I think that's very important for young people to get and understand that what they're often seeing isn't real, and it's putting an unrealistic expectation on them. But I guess it's not demonizing it when people do do that, because it kind of is then quite
00:23:29
Speaker
are disrespectful to those people, I guess, who are trying to kind of find their way or, yeah, so I think balance is the key, isn't it? How do we help young people not feel bad if they do care about the mole on their chin? And yes, it's a really tricky one, though. And I think you're right, there's a lot more pressure, in some respects, on boys now in terms of their own body image, and the pressure to
00:23:58
Speaker
look a particular way and like you say, bulk up, have that muscle definition. And yes, it's a tough climate that young people are in. They're constantly exposed to images of people who look flipping brilliant. It's tough for me as a woman to not look at the images of Liz Hurley and think, wow, she's 50 something. She's amazing. You know, how come I don't look like that?
00:24:24
Speaker
And so, yeah, I can really understand for our teenagers how difficult it is. Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess.
00:24:33
Speaker
What they don't see is how much money, well, what we don't see is how much money is, and time and energy is being spent on Liz Hurley's body. And that's not realistic for most of us to expect, but that that's okay. But what I think you're talking about is vulnerability and being, when you were talking about how I really look when I'm relaxed versus how I'm posing, when you're relaxed and you don't look quite as sharp,
00:25:03
Speaker
You're showing your vulnerability, your true authentic self, but your true authentic self is also the person that likes to sometimes look great in a gorgeous outfit and suck their stomach in and that that is also okay and that we should be forgiving of ourselves and our teens for feeling like they want to do that in any given moment.
00:25:26
Speaker
as you said, balance that I'm waffling a little bit. But that's what's going on about what
Generational Perspectives on Media
00:25:32
Speaker
if our children, it's a hard thing, you know, when my daughter comes out of her bedroom sometimes, and she's, especially in the early days with like makeup, she's, she's really talented, actually, at
00:25:46
Speaker
applying makeup. I'm really impressed by how she's mastered it. And they really show a massive interest because they can learn how to do everything through YouTube and watching TikTok actually. You know, I have I've had to be so careful about my reactions.
00:26:01
Speaker
Because in that moment when my daughter spent like two hours doing her face to look a particular way that I think why do you look like you're 24? I really need to like make sure my response isn't going to make her feel that shame like she because there is a it there's even a vulnerability to spending two hours putting your makeup on isn't there? And the first reaction you get when you walk out of the room is Oh my God, what do you look like?
00:26:29
Speaker
You know? And it's so easy to do because it's an automatic response as a parent. And I've had to really work on that. Like, this is really valuable to my daughter right now in time. And I actually watched Barbie on Wednesday night. And oh, such an interesting film to watch, really deep. And a lot of these issues coming up around the pressure on young people to be perfect.
00:26:59
Speaker
and how tough that is. And actually it's really interesting because my daughter said she found the film really sad and I couldn't quite, she couldn't articulate why. And I just wondered is there's something about that film that almost captures some of the lost things in our children's youth and adolescents that they don't have because of these pressures that they can't quite articulate almost.
00:27:27
Speaker
Yeah, it was really interesting, quite kind of philosophical experience. And I think I viewed it as a film, as a mother and a woman. And my daughter was viewing it as a girl and a teenager. And it was different messaging for both of us. But yeah, I just found that really interesting. It was nice to be able to go and watch something together that that kind of was meaningful for us both in different ways, but also represented the challenges of gender.
00:27:58
Speaker
and identity and the pressures on us to kind of be successful in one way or another, whether we're male or female and some of the roles we get stuck in.
00:28:12
Speaker
And yeah, so really interesting, were for watch, I'd say. Yeah, I agree. And I had exactly the same kind of conversations with my daughter, who's 18. We really enjoyed it at face value for the fun of it, but also the messaging, it's very multi-layered, isn't it, that film? And it bears, yeah, I think 14 is a good age to go. 14 and up, maybe younger, some of it's maybe a little bit lost. But yeah.
00:28:41
Speaker
What was I thinking as you were talking? Actually, I'm going to just skip back a section to where you were talking about
00:28:52
Speaker
kids doing things that feel brutal to each other without even thinking about it. As a psychologist, I'm interested in this because it's been the problem for kids, as far as I can tell, since mankind began, and it's probably the same in the animal world as well. They want to be friends, they want to be like, they want to fit in, they want to connect.
00:29:14
Speaker
but they are capable of being so bloody horrible to each other without really thinking too hard or even thinking really hard and really going for it and being really mean. From a psychological point of view, given that that's been around forever and isn't going anywhere, why do they do that? What's your take on it?
Teenage Brain and Behavior
00:29:36
Speaker
Well, you know, it kind of goes back to some really
00:29:40
Speaker
important brain science like so we know that during adolescence the brain is firing differently and typically adolescents feel emotions more intensely and they can be more impulsive and at the same time social relationships with their peer group are massively important to them.
00:30:03
Speaker
So if you combine that all together, as well as the fact that teenagers actually need to take more risks in order to feel the same amount of enjoyment and pleasure out of life. So if you're a teenager ever reports, this is boring.
00:30:18
Speaker
To be honest, their experience of it probably is boring because dopamine, which is that kind of neurochemical that makes us feel good, gives us drive and energy, our children need more stimulating activities just to produce as much dopamine as they used to when they were little. So they're hunting for things that are going to kind of give them that vibe, that kind of feel-good factor, which is why they're often taking more risks in adolescence.
00:30:48
Speaker
We don't need to do that because we want them to get out in the real world and we want them to be brave enough to get out there without us. So it's kind of a biological programming to help them move away from just being in the family to getting out there and being in the real world. But if you combine all of those things together, you end up in scenarios where your experience of a social
00:31:14
Speaker
event, whether it's an argument with a friend, or it's, I want to be the funniest kid in this space right now. It's kind of like the perfect storm really, because you're going to be more impulsive, you're going to feel things more intensely. So right now, I'm really angry with whoever, because they did whatever. And I am going to
00:31:39
Speaker
send something or do something or say something that's going to have maximum impact. And I'm going to do it without even thinking about it, because I am driven to be more impulsive. So I think the challenge is, is that our adolescents, this is all going on in their brains. And then of course, you know, a few minutes later after you've posted that thing, you wished you hadn't posted or said that thing you wished you hadn't said or even done something.
00:32:08
Speaker
you're kind of back in the zone of, Oh, I feel really bad about that. And your way to escape feeling bad about that might be something a bit more destructive, like now I've got to justify my behavior by going through why that person is such a B I T C H and they deserved everything they got. And so I think our children get stuck in these really unhelpful cycles. Sometimes they're
00:32:33
Speaker
protective, because it's like, well, that's what everyone else is doing. I mean, these group chat sessions, how many young people are swept up with the vibe in the room, and thinking, I don't really want to be doing and saying this, but you know, I can't really control my impulses, my emotions are high, and I need to be part of this. So I think, you know, surprising how much these things influence our adolescence and
00:32:57
Speaker
My son's 18 and he's got through that phase. And he was actually, his temperament isn't, he wasn't particularly like that anyway. But I can see how he looks back to what he was like when he was 15, 16. He's like, oh, mom, I remember that. It's a bit embarrassing now. I don't know what's going on. And so I think our children grow through this and they look back and they go, oh, yeah. And I hold on to that. Because when I'm having these moments with my daughter at 14, I think it won't always be like this.
00:33:26
Speaker
This is a lot about her reactivity because of the way her adolescent brain is functioning. And we will get through this. And there will be a day when she looks back and goes to me, oh, mom.
00:33:38
Speaker
I'm really sorry about that. I was really difficult, wasn't I? Excellent. Yeah. Oh my God. You really just summarised it so perfectly. And the more, in fact, could we just like have a coffee every Friday? Because the more I hear you speak, the more I let myself, I'm letting myself off the hook.
00:33:56
Speaker
for some of the things that I think I just got that so wrong and I needed to do it differently. And actually some of it is biologically necessary. I love that for them to be capable of leaving home and living independent lives. I just love that and it makes so much sense. And as you were talking about the vicious cycle that they get into thinking, if you're in a WhatsApp group chat and everyone's slagging off one person,
00:34:26
Speaker
I could, whilst you know you shouldn't, I can see how it would feel protective to join in because if that person's being victimized, then I'm not being victimized and therefore I fit and I'm wanted. And that's my ultimate goal. And it's just so odd. It is hard. I mean, I just sometimes visualize that
00:34:48
Speaker
gazelle pack, you know, and the lion in the kind of distance and just when I'm in these moments, I actually think that what my daughter's trying to do is be in the pack because biologically, she's not that lion is going to get her. And I think it's actually a very physiological
00:35:08
Speaker
I think young people we're talking, you mentioned anxiety at the beginning, I think the level of anxiety teenagers are experiencing in their bodies when they are trying to fit in is massive. So they've got that pressure, which is driving them. And when we're overwhelmed with emotions, we are less good at making decisions. That kind of thinking part of our brain is completely disconnected.
00:35:35
Speaker
So our adolescents have that double whammy, really. Yeah, no, that's a really good point. And actually, let's move on to specifically discussing anxiety. Although all the way through this chat, I've been aware that anxiety is an undercurrent of all of those things that you've been describing. Your book is about helping parents to understand where their child's anxiety is coming from and support them with it. How do we...
00:36:04
Speaker
Okay, and answer my original question in the intro first. How do I get my child who
Creating Safe Spaces for Teens
00:36:11
Speaker
never wants to admit that there's anything wrong with them to open up and be vulnerable with me and tell me, yeah, I am feeling sad, lonely, angry, scared, frustrated, whatever it is. How do we, first of all, get a conversation started? Well, I think it starts before the conversation.
00:36:33
Speaker
So it's kind of getting your perspective as a parent into a zone where you're not going to freak out when your child tells you they feel anxious, they feel sad, they feel frustrated, they feel angry. And in that freak that moment, you're not going to be like reacting with all your fears and anxieties about what that means and then trying to move to resolve the difficulty with your child. So if you can get yourself in the zone where you're thinking,
00:37:02
Speaker
I'm really curious about what's going on for my child right now. And the feelings that they're experiencing are going to tell me and them something really important about what's going on in their world. They're not things to be afraid of. Sadness is not something to be afraid of. Anxiety isn't something to be afraid of. It's going to tell me if my child is sad because they got left out of their friendship group
00:37:31
Speaker
and they didn't get invited to a party, that tells me what's important to my young person. It tells me they value friendship, they value loyalty, they value a sense of belonging and feeling loved. Gosh, that's something that's so important to know about my child and for them to know about themselves. So, you know, they're feeling anxious about going to school.
00:37:56
Speaker
Is it because they're worried about their performance at school? Are they going to do well enough in their studies? Is it because they're worried about the social pressures in school that they want to be part of a friendship group? If so, that anxiety is telling me they care. They care deeply about doing well in their studies. They care deeply about friendship and relationships. Wow, beautiful values for them to have. So if before we have our conversations with our kids, we're in that mindset,
00:38:24
Speaker
If something comes up, I want to help my young person make sense of the feeling in the context of what is going on in their life. We can then go into that conversation in maybe a different way, which will enable our children to be vulnerable, to open up. And I mean, the key thing that all young people say to me is, I hate it when my parent comes in my room and says, what's wrong then?
00:38:50
Speaker
or, you know, or just says, we're gonna have a conversation, I need to know what's going on. Yeah, like they're a problem to be fixed. Yeah, and the pressure of having to articulate what's wrong. And I mean, I think that's the other thing we take for granted. A lot of the time, our children or adolescents don't know what's wrong. They just feel a particular way. And they're not quite sure why. So to be able to miraculously tell you in words, is
00:39:20
Speaker
difficult in itself. So kids and teenagers always tell me the same thing. If you're going to give my parent any advice, tell them to have a conversation with me when we're doing something else, which is kind of low key. So you're on a journey in the car somewhere, you're clearing up the kitchen together, making dinner together, going for a walk with a dog, that kind of activity where the intensity is taken out of the moment.
00:39:47
Speaker
And then it's starting the conversation with less of a what's wrong and more of, I'm just a bit curious. I noticed you seem a bit down last week. I wondered what might be going on.
00:40:00
Speaker
And then just immediately you're setting the template of, I'm curious, I'm just wondering, I've noticed, no judgment there. You know, I'm not here to fix it or say it's a bad thing you're feeling like, I'm just really interested. And then you invariably will find that actually you might not even have to ask that question if you're on a walk and you're just chatting about other stuff and you're relaxed and in the right space.
00:40:27
Speaker
your adolescent or child is going to tell you what's the problem. And then it's how you respond to them opening up that conversation. The other thing that's so important to know is our body language. Adolescents are super sensitive to picking up on negative body language.
00:40:47
Speaker
So if you think your worried face looks like your kind, caring face, it doesn't to your teenager. It looks like your super angry face. I'm judging you right now. I can't believe you're telling me this. So I have to tell adolescents in the therapy room, this is my worried face. It's not my angry face. It's just me feeling lots of feelings for you and wanting to be able to support you. Because even as a therapist, my worried face looks like
00:41:17
Speaker
an angry face or a disapproving face. And so sometimes I have to say to my kids, you know, I'm not actually angry right now. I'm just really, you know, worried because I want to help. And I think that's important for our kids to know because what we might find is our
00:41:33
Speaker
adolescents start opening up to us and then for some unknown reason, they clam up or they get really distressed by our reaction. We're thinking, hey, wait a minute, I was just doing my, you know, Oscar winning face of concern. And, and I think having these conversations with our children, when we're not in that moment, just saying, look, did you know that, you know, adolescents typically see faces, you know, neutral faces as being aggressive.
00:42:02
Speaker
It just is really helpful to give our children and adolescents that knowledge too so that they understand not just with their relationship with you but with other adults, with other adolescents that quite often they might over interpret a negativity because their brain is wired to be super sensitive to negative social information so that they will do pro-social behaviors to keep them safe in the group.
00:42:31
Speaker
So it's all programmed into them. But of course, they're not aware of that. We're not aware of that necessarily. And then we get really surprised. So yeah, and I think, you know, I just build in times in the day now. Like I know my eldest likes to kind of come down quite late to make like last late night snack. And I just hang around like I know I'm just there. And he knows that's a good time of day to bring something up. He's bothering him. My youngest, I just watch something most nights for 10 or 20 minutes with him. His choice.
00:43:01
Speaker
Modern Family is a good one. And just sit there with them. And I promise you, if they know you're kind of making an effort to be relaxed, you're enjoying their programme with them. They love that. And then that's when the stuff comes out, the little conversations. And there are your opportunities really to respond with that curiosity.
00:43:24
Speaker
And just helping them work out what's going on in my book, actually, I've got this thing called the well being abacus. And it's, I've actually got an abacus and I use it with my 10 year old to say, what's going on with your relationships with people out of 10 and he and we can often just work out why is today being such a tricky day? Why are you so worried about going to school tomorrow?
00:43:44
Speaker
And using that abacus, it just gives you something concrete to really work out what's going on in your life, which is contributing to how you're feeling. And then after you've connected with your young person, you can then move on to problem solving because they feel understood, their experiences feel validated, they feel like they can. Even if you don't totally agree with what they're saying, you know, hold on to just validating their experience and then they're much more likely
00:44:13
Speaker
to be able to move on to thinking, how are we going to solve this problem? And then what can we do? And helping them come up with the ideas so they're not totally dependent on you is just and then you can have these really collaborative conversations. And you can think about what you can do to help what they can do to help. And it's it's it can revolutionize your relationship with your child because they start to learn, actually, I can trust if something's going wrong,
00:44:39
Speaker
my parents actually gonna, it's gonna count. I don't have to hide it. It's not a bad thing that I'm feeling like this. It's actually a helpful thing that I'm feeling like this. And you know, what amazing skills and tools to be able to give our children for life because that is the task of being an adult, isn't it? Working out why the hell do I feel like this? And what can I do based on these feelings to kind of make sense of my life and make some different choices so I can, you know, resolve some of those difficulties.
00:45:09
Speaker
Yeah completely and actually I try to come at it from another angle as well and that sometimes all they really need is to as you said feel like you've heard them listen to them validated their experiences that their their experience of feeling hurt or angry is valid and that's all it that's all they need to know is that it's okay for them to be angry about something
00:45:38
Speaker
And that's enough for them to help process and move through it. Because I think you said earlier on, there's no such thing as a bad emotion. There is difficult emotions, but it's our window of tolerance, if you like, for sitting with and allowing ourselves to feel angry and justified in feeling angry without the need to go out and then punish somebody for it, just working through it. So just being able to talk. And when you
Mental Health Guidance for Parents
00:46:04
Speaker
said about
00:46:06
Speaker
going on a walk or sitting in the car. It reminded me of you saying sometimes you might need a social media filter in order to tell the world about how painful it is. It's the same thing, isn't it? It's like a buffer so that you can get vulnerable somewhere else emotionally. All really good tips. Tell me a little bit about how you've laid out the book, what people can expect from reading the book.
00:46:33
Speaker
Well, I guess I've tried to make it as interesting and engaging as possible whilst providing all those top tips that I've used as a therapist working in mental health services for the NHS for the last 20 years. So everything in there has got a solid evidence base.
00:46:50
Speaker
based on years and years of research, but I've made it as practical and entertaining and as real as possible. So I've been able to talk about families I've worked with to kind of make it feel relatable and real so you can see how these ideas actually relate to the real world. I've talked about myself and my own experience as a parent, bringing up my own children.
00:47:13
Speaker
And what I've tried to do is make the book, and there's no other book out there that's managed to do this so far, I've tried to make it relevant from the ages of 4 to 21. And actually, you know, the concepts in it are exactly relevant to us as adults too. So we're struggling with anxiety, or we're struggling with low mood, or we're struggling to manage big emotions.
00:47:37
Speaker
you know, the the information I'm providing and making it more applicable to the younger and adolescent age range is completely useful and relevant to us as as parents and adults too. So the book really just takes you through some of those key questions we might have about what is mental health? How do I sort of support my child's well being? It thinks about digital technology, social media, all of those additional pressures that our children and us as parents are facing as we're trying to work out how to
00:48:07
Speaker
kind of break into our children's world because they're often just completely online. It also talks about then moves on to thinking about managing emotions, making sense of emotions, being able to have those conversations with our young people about the difficult, the tough stuff and how we can use that in a meaningful way to help our children learn about themselves and who they are as people and develop that kind of moral compass in life.
00:48:34
Speaker
And then I moved to focus on anxiety. Anxiety is such a prevalent issue and difficult part of being a young person and an adult. The additional pressures we're all facing in our lives at the moment, it's very natural that we're struggling to manage anxiety more. So I cover anxiety and the different ways that you as a parent can support your child in that area. Then move on to thinking about low mood and communication tips for working, not working,
00:49:04
Speaker
you know, supporting your relationships with adolescents in particular, because that can be a time when those communication avenues can break down. And then I think specifically about adolescents and some of the challenges that are for adolescents and for us as parents of adolescents. It kind of takes you through the journey, really.
00:49:24
Speaker
You can just dip into the bits that feel relevant to you. So if your child struggles, particularly with low mood, there's kind of three key chapters in there, which will help you with that. And then anxiety is the same. If you specifically interested anxiety, you can just look at those three key chapters, but every part of the book compliments the other parts of the book. You can dip in and out. And there is a section on self-harm because it is something we're seeing more and more young people using as a way to cope with distress.
00:49:51
Speaker
And I think it's a topic that's really difficult for parents. It's frightening, it's really frightening. If you've ever had a call from your school to tell you, it's often sometimes that's what happens is that someone at school notices that your child is self-harmed. It just can completely throw you as a parent. So that's a really, I think that's a really helpful chapter for those families who've experienced that as well, or are worried about that as an issue.
00:50:20
Speaker
Yeah, and I will just mention that I've got a really great episode with a wonderful woman, Rosie Millender, back right at the beginning, I think it's episode two or three, for anybody who does want to listen to something a little bit more in depth on self-harm.
00:50:38
Speaker
I was going to say, I think that's all I want to ask you, but it's not. I'd like to keep you here until tea time if that's okay. But is there anything else that you feel the need to say in terms of tips for parents? And then can you tell us a bit more about the book in terms of where people can get it and where they can find you online if you're online?
00:51:05
Speaker
I guess, you know, the tips I can give parents really is I know I'm a parent myself and my children, it hasn't been easy being a parent, a single parent too. And I think one of the things I've noticed about those moments when you're just really worried about your children is you run to an internal panic about where you've messed up, how you've got it wrong. And that fear can be paralyzing and
00:51:34
Speaker
And it can lead to you just feeling like you're such a failure and it can feel so intensely lonely in those moments. I'm sure parents who are listening to this podcast have had those nights where they just can't sleep because they're so worried about what's going on for the young person and what role and part they've played in it.
00:51:57
Speaker
And I guess, you know, it's just holding on to that the majority of us as parents have this experience and this feeling. It's not just you.
00:52:10
Speaker
And I have it and I've worked with children for 20 years and I've learned. I've got so much knowledge about it and I have it all of the time. And a lot of the times when I'm doing the right thing as a parent, it feels so hard that the kickback I might be getting, the moments where I'm really coming alongside my child when they're really struggling and it's so painful. And it's not because I'm getting it wrong necessarily, it's just because it's
00:52:40
Speaker
hard. So finding your cheerleaders, your support network, the ways that you can look after yourself. So important, you know, just finding the things that work for you to release that tension. And just reminding yourself, you know, you are good enough, you can do this. And if you need support and help, that's brilliant. We all need support and help. It takes a village to raise a child. Historically, you know, we would never have had to have done this so much on our own as we do it now with a
00:53:10
Speaker
all our children up in tribes. So it's not feeling like you failed in some way if you have to ask for help as well. So I guess that's kind of just a bit to hold on to because I meet so many parents who are at that point where they just feel feeling completely desperate and lost. So yeah, try and avoid getting there, I suppose, by, you know, recognizing what's going on and if you need help asking for it.
00:53:35
Speaker
And yes, in terms of the book where you can get it from, it's in all bookshops. I would say all good bookshops. And it's also on Amazon and it's in Kindle version and Audible version.
00:53:49
Speaker
So yeah, it's accessible. And I'm actually narrating it, so I'm not sure how people feel about that. Well, I mean, you sound great. So I'm sure it's fine. I always think the choice of narration is really interesting, but it must feel really hard to narrate your own book. It was a really moving experience, actually, because you have one person that you're reading the whole book through with. It's kind of
00:54:18
Speaker
Yeah, it's quite symbolic in a way. It's a bit, I've never written a bit before. So it was, it was the first time I think I'd ever read it through from start to finish. So it was quite an amazing experience. And it was really lovely to have this great person who was kind of witness to that. And yeah, it's quite emotional at the end, like finishing off the acknowledgments at the end. The only thing I could relate to was having a baby. Because like kind of when you have a midwife who looks after you through the book, through the kind of
00:54:46
Speaker
you know, giving birth moment, you kind of feel this like weird emotional attachment. So it was that
Beth's Social Media Journey
00:54:52
Speaker
vulnerable, that level of vulnerability and exposure that you go through when you have a child.
00:54:57
Speaker
So that was the only, that was the closest I could relate it to, which is really bizarre. I never dreamed I would feel like that at the end. You're making me want to write a book now. I know, it's a really weird feeling. It's a very vulnerable exposing thing to do. I've just suddenly panicked yesterday when it came out. I was like, oh my goodness, am I ready for this? Exciting. So yeah, it is a strange, strange feeling. But yeah, I hope it's as helpful to
00:55:24
Speaker
families as it was to me writing it really. Yeah, yeah. Oh no, I'm sure it will be. And you mentioned you're on social media. Do you want to share where you are if people want to follow you? So I'm trying my best to be on social media. I'm not brilliant at it yet.
00:55:39
Speaker
But practice makes perfect. So I'm on TikTok and I'm on Instagram and it's just Dr. Beth Moseley is the handle. And yeah, if you want to come follow me, that'd be great because I probably need some more followers. It's not because I work so much for the NHS. I have so little time, so I need to spend a bit more time on it. But yeah, I am there.
00:55:59
Speaker
And I got lots of tips for parents and adolescents, got loads of adolescents who follow me. And I love that because it's like giving the two sides of the story. Yeah, definitely. Oh, look, and it's quality, not quantity. That's the most important thing. That's right. Yeah. I think you just see so many of these incredible
00:56:17
Speaker
like Dr Julie Smith, I mean her things. They're just like a next level and you just, I have to cope with that. I'm not that great at that, but that's okay. Yeah, that is absolutely okay. And you're not that
Podcast Conclusion and Engagement
00:56:29
Speaker
great at that yet. Exactly, exactly. A growth mindset. Oh, Beth, thank you so much. It's been really fascinating talking to you. I'm going to come and follow you now. Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. And thank you for having me on.
00:56:49
Speaker
Thank you so much for listening. I really do appreciate it. Thank you too to everyone who's already rated and reviewed the podcast. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts or Amazon, it would mean the world to me if you could leave a review. It really helps get the word out as well as making me very happy to read what you have to say. If this episode strikes a chord for you, please share it with anyone else you know who might be in the same boat and hit subscribe so you don't miss the next episode.
00:57:17
Speaker
If you have a story or suggestion for something you'd like to see covered on the podcast, you can email me at teenagekickspodcast at gmail.com or message me on Instagram. I am Helen Wills. I love hearing from all my listeners. It really makes difference to me on this journey. See you next week when I'll be chatting to another brilliant guest about the highs and lows of parenting teens. Bye for now.