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Shame, Your Name, and Mary Magdalene
55 Plays10 months ago
[Well, it almost rhymes! :-) ]
Fun episode here, folks. We'll bet good money that this may be the first podcast episode EVER mentioning both Mary Magdalene and a herd of angry mama elephants. (But if you find another one, by all means let us know and we'll give you a prize. Seriously.)
A poignant scene from an episode of the groundbreaking TV series "The Chosen" (Season 3, so spoiler alert if you have not gotten that far yet) prompts a heartfelt & encouraging discussion about the relentlessness of evil, the paralyzing power of shame, and the ongoing struggle to hold on to one's new identity in Christ. What even does it mean to have a "new identity," and how does the grace of God fashion such a thing in anyone?
Wendy and Chris each share about their own internal battles to remain rooted in Jesus, and what kinds of things bring them back around when the old self threatens to rise up and wreck the room.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Surviving Saturday Podcast
00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome to Surviving Saturday, a podcast about holding on to hope in the midst of life's difficulties, disappointments, and dark seasons.
Transformative Impact of Easter Saturday
00:00:12
Speaker
Times like that remind us of the agony and despair the followers of Jesus felt on the Saturday of Easter weekend, in between the Friday on which he was crucified and the Sunday on which he rose from the dead.
00:00:23
Speaker
That someday forever changed the way that humans can relate to God. But what does it look like to be honest about the very real pain we experience in the in-between? To fervently cling to hope in the God who promised us his peace and his presence at times when he feels distant or even cruel.
Meet the Hosts: Wendy and Chris
00:00:40
Speaker
I'm Wendy Osborne, a licensed counselor in Charlotte, North Carolina. And I'm her husband, Chris, a marriage mediator, conflict resolution coach, and trauma-informed story work coach.
00:00:51
Speaker
Join us each episode for authentic conversations about how life not turning out as we'd expected has created the contextual soil for the growth of a tenacious hope in the resurrection and in a God who is still making all things new.
The Chosen: Impact on Understanding Scripture
00:01:07
Speaker
Hey there, I am Chris Osborne. And I'm Wendy. Welcome to the Surviving Saturday podcast. We have been talking about my favorite episode so far of The Chosen.
00:01:20
Speaker
Well, and we've been talking about sometimes about just how much we love the chosen just because it's made scripture passages that we've heard for years and sort of run through and read really fast and in a very white Western way. It's really brought them to life. It's given context to the people who were involved in Jesus' ministry, the people who traveled with it. Yes. Yes. You were saying there was an episode that really kind of struck you and you've been sort of chewing on a little bit. Which one was that?
00:01:50
Speaker
Yeah. The one I think we saw maybe like a week ago. Um, and we're behind a little bit. We're not yet on season four or season, not done with season three. So, um, they were in the camp, all the apostles and Jesus and a demon possessed man wanders in and he's clearly in distress. He's
00:02:17
Speaker
He seems angry. He seems demanding.
Conflict with Evil and Personal Identity
00:02:23
Speaker
He seems afraid. His body is cut. And he's been harming himself. You can tell to either the demon's telling him to, or he's trying to do it to get the demon out. You really don't know. But it is painful to see, very painful to see. And Mary steps over with a couple of others to try to help him.
00:02:46
Speaker
And, you know, I'm not a, I don't have an MDiv, so I don't know exactly what here is completely true to Scripture and what is not. But what struck me as I was watching is that as she tries to speak
00:03:07
Speaker
help to Him and care for Him. He begins to call her by a name that the story would imply in the series that she went by before she met Jesus. Now,
00:03:22
Speaker
I don't know if she, I know Lilith is not in scripture, but I don't know if she had had a name change, but where it took me was, you know, Jesus and everyone who knows her now uses this name Mary, Mary Magdalene. Mary Magdalene, not his mother Mary, who's also with them, which was a surprise to me how much she's traveling with him, which is scriptural and I had no idea.
00:03:47
Speaker
And so I was thinking about, you know, the passage that says Jesus has called us by name. We're His. I've called you by name. You're mine. And that just led me to think there are names that I believe evil uses for us.
00:04:08
Speaker
that are in contradiction to the glory that God designs for us to live out of and that keep us far more contained and far less free in who Jesus is making us to be.
00:04:27
Speaker
Yeah, well, there's a passage in Revelation, I don't remember where it is, but that talks about Jesus will give everybody, will have a new name. There's the name that was written for you in the book of lies. It's written on a stone without getting bogged down in the actual theology of it. But I resonate with that whole idea of there's a true name, a true self.
00:04:47
Speaker
I think people I know I'm gonna have an album years ago. It's called myself when I am real and I love that title because it's like yeah, there's a difference between the me that's real that's grounded that's present can engage with others and the me that's It's still me, but it's it's less me.
Wendy's Journey: From Childhood to Empowerment
00:05:04
Speaker
It's more the shadow side. Yeah, you might use a union term but and I was struck by that same scene in that
00:05:13
Speaker
Mary is the one who recognizes what's going on in the man because we do know from Scripture she had had demons cast out of her. Yes, which is such a precious part of the story and I think why she was among those who stepped over to help him. Yes, so she's drawn to him. She recognizes she knows, okay, don't just, you know, shame him.
00:05:33
Speaker
But rather recognize this is this is serious evil going on. I think she saw the larger battle. Yes. That was at play. And then when she steps into it, the demon sort of takes over. You can see in the guy. Yeah. And it's not even is he there? Is he trying to, you know, is he making sense? All of a sudden the demon is dressing her directly.
00:05:52
Speaker
and says, Lilith, we know you, essentially. Yeah, it felt to me in watching it like the retaliatory nature of evil, of who do you think you are? Yes, it definitely had not. To live into who Jesus is calling you to be. Yes, and there's this mockery and this scorning and this
00:06:13
Speaker
Attempted power and thankfully Jesus shows back up in time and is able to cast him out He hadn't done that before in the presence of everybody So it's kind of a big huge moment. You can see this man come back to himself But I think what you said too that you were struck by was
00:06:28
Speaker
what effect did that have on Mary afterwards? Kind of facing that angle. So Mary began to question who she was. That's how I interpreted it. And so we see her then go back to some of her former ways of life. And no one knows where she's gone, but suddenly she has disappeared. And so I began to think about how often I have done that.
00:06:58
Speaker
or the pull that I often feel from evil to not believe who Jesus says that I am. What would you say are things that sort of pull you in that direction or make you forget the redemption that you've experienced?
00:07:19
Speaker
I think when I get afraid and I think particularly if I taste rejection of some sort, then I can go into a place of feeling futile that my efforts are meaningless and a sense of why try? Is it even worth it?
00:07:44
Speaker
And so what does that look like if a person saw you kind of going that direction? How would they how would they pick up on or would they how would they know so I think first You could probably notice on my face that the joy and the hope Drain and I think I I've become less
00:08:12
Speaker
outwardly focused and I've become very self-protective. So you know I think the name that evil would often use and there are many I'm sure but the ones that come immediately to mind are small and contained or small and compliant. Yeah. And I think that
00:08:37
Speaker
In my early days of life, like as a kid, I got a lot of affirmation for being both physically and behaviorally small. Yeah.
00:08:54
Speaker
and very cooperative. So that's what teachers liked about me. She's a bundle of joy. She is such a good girl. Um, I remember Pat's on the head from my, you know, relatives, you're such a good little girl. And that felt to me like the most important thing I could do. Like don't ruffle feathers, don't make waves, be good and don't really require much.
00:09:24
Speaker
And do you remember times that you maybe experimented with being something different or took up more space and there was a consequence or some kind of way that somebody communicated, this is not welcome?
00:09:39
Speaker
Yeah. So I think for me, a lot of the time it was around, um, the way that I expressed emotions. I was too afraid, um, to really act out and like misbehave, but, um, you know, I was the only girl in my family. And so my emotions might have been closer to the surface than that of my brothers who just were more physically oriented.
00:10:09
Speaker
And so I think people in my life didn't know what to do with big expressions of anger or of sadness. And so I might be told things like, are you really gonna let that bother you? Or you're never gonna make it if things upset you this way. And so I just internalized that I needed to be unaffected.
00:10:37
Speaker
The message kind of sounds like it wasn't worth it to get upset. Right, right. And I guess there's almost a resignation to your fate. Well, what are you going to do? You know, people disappoint you or whatever.
00:10:52
Speaker
Yep, yep, exactly. And it's funny, because I was thinking about it, when our 23-year-old turned 18, she wanted to get a tattoo. And so she and her childhood best friend were going to get a matching tattoo. And she and I decided we would get a matching tattoo.
00:11:14
Speaker
And so she wanted to get a tattoo of an elephant. And so she told me, you know, mom, I'm learning that elephants mean to take up your space in the world. Yes. And so I was like, well, that sounds great. That's what I'm wanting to learn to do.
00:11:30
Speaker
And so we both got this cute little elephant tattooed on our ankle and, um, it kind of has been a frequent reminder that I'm learning to not be so small and to grow maybe into who God has made me to be.
Symbolism of Elephants in Wendy's Growth
00:11:50
Speaker
And so this has been, you know, this was five years ago.
00:11:55
Speaker
And back in December, I was talking with a friend and she was telling me, um, well, we were first talking about this documentary on elephants that you and I have been watching. Yes. The Secrets of the Elephants on Disney Plus. Because apparently there are a lot of documentaries made about elephants.
00:12:14
Speaker
That's right. But they're not all narrated by Natalie Portman, which this one is, which makes it really good. And this one's broken up into bite-sized episodes. Yes. But I was struck by how human-like elephants are. They band together. Yes. They surround each other at milestone times of life. They're kind of matriarchal in this sort of societal structure. The male elephants go off on their own.
00:12:43
Speaker
and disappear, looking for more conquest or something. But the females travel together, but they sort of raise their kids as a pack. They raise their kids together, and they grieve, and they mark the place where a loved elephant died. Yes.
00:12:58
Speaker
And so we were talking about this documentary and my friend shared about a story she had read in the news and it happened last fall and I think it was in Malaysia. Okay. And a man and his wife and 20 something year old son were driving on a highway in a remote part of Malaysia and they came around a curve and they hit an elephant cup.
00:13:26
Speaker
And I don't know how badly the cub was injured. It was stopped in its tracks. I'm assuming it let out a screech because part of what we've learned in this elephant documentary is they have a language. Yeah. They had the one woman on there who was saying she knows all the different braids and bleeds and she could tell what's about to happen when she hears a particular noise. Yeah. If they're hungry or mad or grieving. Yeah. And so this elephant cub said something.
00:13:55
Speaker
and because like you said it's a matriarchal society all these mama elephants are walking ahead of it and they hear what has happened and they turn around and they surround the car
00:14:11
Speaker
And they start smashing the bumper and stepping on the hood. And my friend said, you know, breaking out the windows of the car. I didn't see that part of the news report I read, but she seemed to have seen that. And when they were satisfied that they had made their message clear, they took the cup and they left.
00:14:35
Speaker
And I don't know if this man could drive his car. I don't know how terrified the family was. But I was like, wait a minute. Mama elephants, I said this to somebody, and they were like, forget Mama Bear. Mama elephant is where it's at. Because they travel in a pack, that's the thing. And they're all going to mess you up. Yeah. And so I was thinking more about this tattoo and this largeness
00:15:04
Speaker
that I decided at least five years ago to begin to claim. Like I don't want to live small.
00:15:13
Speaker
or compliant, I'm not out to break all the rules. Or all the windows. Or all the windows. Right. But there are times when life has needed me to advocate for the powerless. Yes. Or I have needed to step in and lift someone up who has been oppressed in a way. Right. Right. Which you do by cruel power. Right.
00:15:40
Speaker
I was struck as you were saying that too, like in thinking about kind of our journey and conflict. And I'm remembering early on
Relationship Dynamics: Wendy and Chris
00:15:49
Speaker
when we would have arguments and we didn't even know what they were, you would go small and you would almost go mute or at least silent and you couldn't even name what you were feeling. And for me, that was terrifying because I couldn't fix anything. All I knew was you're upset, but you didn't know why. So I didn't know why.
00:16:10
Speaker
And, but I did notice what you were talking about earlier, how you would, you kind of get small and I would say, you know, you lose eye contact. Like you don't want to look and see, you, you stopped looking and it feels like it's punishment to me, but for you, it's often, I don't want to see, I don't want to be seen.
00:16:24
Speaker
Yeah. And I think, you know, as you say that, so when I was really young and I would feel the loss of connection that came from me exhibiting an emotion that the adults in my life didn't know what to do with.
00:16:40
Speaker
I would go and be alone. I would go outside or I would go in my bedroom because when you talk about the eye contact, if I was looking for an adult to comfort me in an emotion that they didn't know what to do within their own bodies, then the searching with my eyes
00:17:05
Speaker
was painful. Oh, that makes a lot of sense. And so I learned to go into my room and do something to distract or comfort myself, play with my dolls, play outside in the woods, you know, do something. And so, yeah, I brought that into marriage of I'm going to retreat and I'm not going to look at you, which is another way of saying, I will not need or rely on you. I will turn inward and do what I have to to be okay.
00:17:34
Speaker
and you're not necessarily doing it with the intent to punish me. No. But it felt that way to me. I mean, I'm sure there were times that I so wanted you to be able to help me. Sure. That it was like, oh no, you're not doing it so fine, you've lost me. Right. But I think more so, it was, I didn't know what to do when I felt those big feelings. Yes, yes.
00:18:00
Speaker
Um, I didn't trust that you or anyone else could really meet me there. Yeah. And I'm struck by, I can tell a difference now. There are times when we're having a disagreement, we're frustrated about something, but you meet me with this strength.
00:18:17
Speaker
that is noticeable. And it's not you powering up and saying, here I come, I'm going to smash your car and smash your windows. It's not that energy. There's a presence in the solidity where you're like, I'm going to stay with this. And I know this is upsetting you, or you don't like to hear this, but I think it's important.
Embracing Goodness and Connection
00:18:36
Speaker
There's a different vibe.
00:18:37
Speaker
that is compelling. I'm not gonna say I love it and I automatically just cave on everything, but I take notice. That'd be nice. It would be nice if it just worked. Not really, though. No, but there's a strength and a solidity to it that's really attractive because you are holding the space that you are supposed to have right-sized. You're not disappearing and retreating and not showing up, but you're also not trying to power me through. You will see this.
00:19:06
Speaker
Um, there's a solidity and it's hard to hard, much harder to argue with because I'm like, you know, you're not wrong and you're not threatening me. You're just being and you're, and you're saying I have this need, I have this desire. I want this to be different. And there's times I've ignored that or I've tried to dismiss it or explain something away. Well, and I think it's moving out of isolation and shame and claiming hope.
00:19:36
Speaker
that just maybe this time you might meet me there, or someone might. That maybe the rejection I feel, and that may be in another sphere, that may have nothing to do with you, but maybe the rejection will not have the final word. Maybe there's a way that I can continue to hold onto my goodness
00:19:58
Speaker
no matter what is happening with the way another person engages me. Yes. And I think an interesting dynamic then is how often are we able to catch ourselves drifting into that older way of reacting and how we pull ourselves back. In The Chosen, what happens is Mary goes off the grid, disappears, but everybody in the Apostolic crew loves her so much. They're like, we got to go find her. And they go and find her. And at first, she's like,
00:20:27
Speaker
You know, don't bother with me. I don't deserve his love. I'm not worthy. I've gone back so many times is what she says in the episode. Yes. And I love the tenderness that they bring her of like, do you, you know, she's worried about what Jesus is going to think because she went back to it. And they're like, don't you remember him? You know him. He's going to love you like he has. He's going to be that same welcoming and she doesn't trust it
00:20:55
Speaker
instinctively, but she trusts them enough to go back. Yes. But she's still battling that shame. You can tell I love how they depict that. And she's still like, oh, I'm going to be reprimanded.
00:21:07
Speaker
Well, and I love this scene where they take her to Jesus tent. And again, this is the producer's conjecture, but it was beautiful for me in my own faith development because they, you know, make sure he's willing to see them. Yeah. And then the way that they remove the curtain to the tent. Yeah.
00:21:30
Speaker
To me reminded me of the veil in the temple. Oh, yeah And so like that is removed and then she and those who have brought her back to him are face to face with Jesus. Yes, and he even says that
00:21:46
Speaker
Again in the episode, but I like to think this is how it would have really happened Will you lift your eyes up and look at me? Yeah, because she has the same thing, you know and shame and fear Leave us dropping our eyes. We use the word downcast Yeah, like downcast your face down. Yeah down eyes down. Yeah, and he says will you lift your eyes and look at me? Yes, I
00:22:11
Speaker
And then as he's hugging her, he says something about, you know, all that you have to do every time has come back.
Standing Firm in Faith and Redemption
00:22:20
Speaker
And that reminds me of another passage in scripture that I've clung to for years, you know, where the scripture is saying, and after all of this has happened, you're just called to stand. Like just, I remember a pastor telling me at one time, you know, it just means you just got to get back up.
00:22:39
Speaker
Yes. You're going to fall. You're going to return to the old way. And will you just stand up again? Yeah. And so I was just so struck by the grace and this playing with these categories of our true name that Jesus is calling us to live into. Yes. Yes. And this name that darkness would have us believe and therefore live according to.
00:23:07
Speaker
Yes, I'm thinking two different things in that, and I'll spit them out quickly, see which one gets traction, but one, there's a Toby Maxx song that keeps coming to my head, and of course it's just, we lose our way, we get back up again, it's never too late to get back up again. Get up, you're gonna shine again, maybe knock down, but knock down forever. You know, I love that. Just, hey look, yes, those, we're gonna get pulled back into evil sometimes, even after we've tasted redemption. And they keep depicting that, it's the other thing, on the Disciple crew, everything,
00:23:37
Speaker
Everybody's pulled back and forth and their old self still, you know wants to rise up and then one of the other you know People in the crew will say hey, but we're different now remember like we just watched the episode where the 12 are sent out and they send out Simon the zealot who's been training for war with Rome and Matthew the tax collector who had been working working for Rome and got rich and Taking advantage of all the Jewish people and everybody's like how are those two gonna go together and Jesus like hey
00:24:07
Speaker
You're not who you were. None of you are. That's why you're here with me. And that resonates really that you're not who you were. The truest, what's true about you is not that small, compliant, disappearing person. What's truest about you is the kindness and wisdom that you can bring.
00:24:28
Speaker
And a woman who loves truth and loves goodness and yet is not compelled by fear to pursue those things, but is driven by love.
Communication and True Identity
00:24:43
Speaker
Yes, because I feel that when you are coming to me with love,
00:24:48
Speaker
the message that you're bringing, even if it's hard, I'm more likely to receive it, again, not always right away, but I can't write it off. You're just afraid or you're just demanding or whatever. And I would say there's the same difference. There's different energies with which I come to you, right? You can tell when I am doing something or moving towards you in a way that's really more about me
00:25:18
Speaker
whether I could name it or not. And it's more about what I'm worried about or fearful of versus I'm coming to you in true kindness. Yeah. Oh yeah. Like we don't realize we give off that vibe as much. Yeah. So I love just that metaphor of, you know,
00:25:37
Speaker
being able to dial into who you really are and let that be the war. Let that be the war of, is this really in any particular situation, am I living out the identity that God's given me, that he's rescued me from, that he's let me taste redemption in, or am I defaulting to something? Am I defaulting to a way that
00:26:00
Speaker
is natural for my body. Like it's almost like Mary's encounter with the demoniac is like it has this gravitational pull. Oh, that's really the world for me. Yeah. And she went back. We don't know what her intentions were, but she gets sucked back into it. And that part resonated for me of
00:26:19
Speaker
I gravitate back to things that I've been freed from that I know bring only death, but there's some times, some things that work in me, the pull is too strong.
Balancing Identity and Overcoming Past
00:26:30
Speaker
And for me that's, and we can talk about that in another episode, but the feeling of overwhelm, the feel of powerlessness, there are ways that my body learned to sort of cope with that or to try to stave it off. So that's, any other thoughts that you have? Yeah, so I was just thinking kind of,
00:26:49
Speaker
The way I picture vacillating between these two names Yeah Is the name and the way that Jesus calls me to live I feel is going to have a lot to do with The battle that I have done with evil Against the way it has named me to keep me contained and so by that I mean
00:27:17
Speaker
without his redemptive work to counteract the small and the compliant, I'll be big and here I am and you will listen and I will be unapologetic. And that would not be living into the name where Jesus says, you are more than you have been. Like my word for this year is more.
00:27:44
Speaker
And I want to bring more risk and consider my goodness more and where it might be beneficial to the world that I live in. But that is very different than just a reaction against evil's desire to keep me small. Yeah, I was talking about this with somebody recently who had expressed, you know, a struggle that I could relate to as well.
00:28:14
Speaker
running into their own anger and how it's expressed and feelings were terrified and they want to they want to change but they're like so does this mean I say nothing does it mean I don't do anything and and I was you know my my encouragement to him was well you might sometimes it might you know we don't really I know my own story was I didn't correct
00:28:36
Speaker
without over correcting. So I brought an excess of words to our fights and conflicts. I learned at some point, oh, I don't have to do that. Sometimes I need to sit in silence. Sometimes I need to be quiet. But then I got a little too enamored of silence. I'm like, I don't have to get into this fight. I'm gonna just chuck it in the void.
00:28:55
Speaker
changing our behavior unto Jesus' redemption in our life or unto our own self-preservation. And there's a big difference. That's really good wording because yeah the Jesus journey for me is that invitation to not just the counter
00:29:11
Speaker
Yeah. Because really, when we start thinking about our story routes for how we act, we can reenact in two ways. We can reenact by being the old self, the old person, or we can reenact by saying, oh, hell no, I'm not going through that again. You'll hear me roar. I'll get big. I'll be loud or smart or whatever. The Jesus invitation is
00:29:34
Speaker
You know is not even the middle isn't even the right word. It's just hey This is what love looks like and it means you speak when you should speak and you're silently should be silent And there's no perfect roadmap for that
00:29:46
Speaker
Right.
Community Support and Redemption
00:29:47
Speaker
And like, as we close, you know, I'm not sure the elephant mamas were following Jesus when they destroyed the car. No, that's probably. But they were being incredibly protective of their little kid. Yes. Somebody, that was one of their babies. That's right. And they clearly said, not on our watch. Yes. Do not miss that we will protect. And there's something holy in that.
00:30:13
Speaker
There's something very holy and we will do what we need to do to love. And again, you know, I don't think, you know, Jesus was necessarily smiling. Although we might have laughed. It's kind of a funny story. Right. Because the people, I have to clarify, the people in the car were not harmed. They are fine. That's good. They are fine. I don't think their car is fine.
00:30:34
Speaker
Which means the elephants probably had some, you know, some restraint as well. I mean, they could have said, hey, you're the man who drove this thing. Maybe they didn't know better, but I think they were just sending a message. That's right. Here's the message. You're not going to do this. This is the instrumentality. This would be a hard no that you will get away with this here. Well, and I love that image of, you know, that the kindness of Jesus, the journey I've been on to and in
00:30:56
Speaker
dealing with the darker parts of what I am drawn to in the fearful self, it's God's kindness that leads to repentance. It's people reflecting and resonating his kindness and bearing it.
00:31:13
Speaker
that is beautiful. And so I love the idea of, you know, the disciples have to go get Mary and bring her back. Other people had to cut a hole in the roof to get their paralyzed friend to see Jesus. That communal element I think is beautiful as well. It's not just, we need to come back. Sometimes our friends need to, we need to have friends that are good enough that they'll drag us to Jesus. They'll drag us. And I think, I've been thinking too,
00:31:38
Speaker
Who can I count on to take me to him? And who is he asking me to take to him? Oh, that's beautiful. So thanks for joining us. We'll see you next time. Take care. And if you are enjoying the podcast, please don't forget to like, subscribe, rate, and review.
Engaging with the Podcast and Nurture Counseling
00:31:59
Speaker
The Surviving Saturday podcast is brought to you by Nurture Counseling PLLC, a counseling teaching and training center based out of Charlotte, North Carolina. We help families flourish one story at a time. Nurture Counseling provides counseling, counseling intensive for couples, conflict resolution coaching, story work groups, seminars, workshops, and retreats to provide a safe and welcoming context for exploring the agonizing experiences of pain, brokenness, and evil that disrupt our lives.
00:32:26
Speaker
and that God often uses to nurture deeper trust and intimacy with Him and with each other. You can find us online at www.nurturecounseling.net