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Cultivating a Deeply-Rooted Marriage... with Dr. Dan Allender! (Pt.  1) image

Cultivating a Deeply-Rooted Marriage... with Dr. Dan Allender! (Pt. 1)

S2 E8 · The "Surviving Saturday" Podcast
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54 Plays30 days ago

Y'all... This can't be happening...  And yet it is. Our special guest this episode is none other than Dr. Dan Allender, whom we are honored to call our friend, mentor, wise guide, and chief source of inspiration in everything we do at Nurture Counseling and here on the podcast.  

We are beside ourselves with gratitude, and so thrilled for our listeners to get to experience Dan's wisdom, playfulness, kindness, winsomeness, and infectious passion for the redemptive work of the Gospel in marriages.  His newest book, The Deep-Rooted Marriage: Cultivating Intimacy, Healing, and Delight (co-written with fellow Christian couples therapist Dr. Steve Call)  comes out in a few weeks, and we know you will be blessed by the foretaste Dan provides in this 2 part interview. 

Join us for a delightful and insightful conversation with Dan about the new ground that this book breaks (see what I did there?) by including a richer exploration of the effects that trauma and disappointment that we often bring into our marriages can have on our ability to navigate conflict and suffering when we encounter them. We'll consider how marriage and/or  raising a family can both draw out the worst in any of us, yet also uniquely offer us glimpses of heaven and the glory that God intends for His people. 

And we hope that after meeting Dan in a more intimate setting like this, you, too, will be inspired, encouraged, and better equipped to bring the kindness and mercy of God to bear on both your own story and your spouse's.

Oh, and you can pre-order The Deep-Rooted Marriage here to get access to some special companion resources: https://www.thomasnelson.com/p/deep-rooted-marriage/

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Transcript

Introduction to 'Surviving Saturday'

00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome to Surviving Saturday, a podcast about holding on to hope in the midst of life's difficulties, disappointments, and dark seasons.

Reflecting on Easter Emotions

00:00:12
Speaker
Times like that remind us of the agony and despair the followers of Jesus felt on the Saturday of Easter weekend, in between the Friday on which he was crucified and the Sunday on which he rose from the dead.

Honesty in Pain and Hope

00:00:23
Speaker
That Sunday forever changed the way that humans can relate to God. But what does it look like to be honest about the very real pain we experience in the in-between? To fervently cling to hope in the God who promised us his peace and his presence at times when he feels distant or even cruel.

Meet Wendy and Chris

00:00:40
Speaker
I'm Wendy Osborne, a licensed counselor in Charlotte, North Carolina. And I'm her husband, Chris, a marriage mediator, conflict resolution coach, and trauma-informed story work coach.

Exploring Hope in Challenges

00:00:51
Speaker
Join us each episode for authentic conversations about how life not turning out as we'd expected has created the contextual soil for the growth of a tenacious hope in the resurrection and in a God who is still making all things new. Hi, welcome back.

Welcoming Dan Allender

00:01:11
Speaker
We are here today with one of my favorite people, Dan Allender. Welcome, Dan.
00:01:19
Speaker
Thank you, Wendy. Chris, good to be with you both. Thank you for joining us. This is a huge honor. We are so grateful, so excited. This is a this is a happy day. Yes.
00:01:32
Speaker
You have been influential in our life for at least a couple of decades, first through your books and through your CDs and then through programs that you've done through the Allender Center or out on your own marriage conferences. So, um,
00:01:54
Speaker
It's a treat to get to talk to you and one to thank you. You're welcome. and Sort of implies that you began, what, around age 10 reading. Exactly. Yes. I am just about to hit 30. Yep. so Same age as our oldest child. That's complicated.
00:02:16
Speaker
That's very complicated. Yes. No timelines. That's right. That's right.

New Book on Marriage

00:02:21
Speaker
So um we today want to hear about the newest book that you have coming out next month with Dr. Steve Call. It's another book on marriage and you've written a few of these um and they have been very helpful for us in the past. And so we'd love to hear why another book on marriage.

Trauma and Marriage

00:02:46
Speaker
Oh, it's a wonderful question. you know At one level, where you want to almost say it there's no more necessity for more trees to die um ah for another book on marriage. But for us, I think one of the things that, um I mean, I had the privilege of writing with my best friend, Tremper Longman, two books on marriage. And I really like those books. I'm fond of them. I think they're very helpful. But what I would say is,
00:03:15
Speaker
In the writing, we had not done the kind of work um ah Becky and I had not done the kind of work looking at the role of trauma, looking at the role of our family of origin in the way we have now. Not that we didn't do some of that work before, but I think there is an ongoing evolving understanding of how our past plays itself out in the present And I think we were clearer now about the importance of stepping back to understand how your own family of origin sets so much the tide, the contours, the structure of how you engage at least some of the hard moments in your marriage.

Insights on Trauma-informed Relationships

00:04:03
Speaker
And so we wanted to be able to, in some sense, bring the interplay of heartache, family of origin, trauma,
00:04:10
Speaker
into the language of what does it mean to engage that in the context of your marriage?

Continuous Learning in Marriage

00:04:17
Speaker
Well it it definitely does that. I mean thank you for the advanced copy of it that we've gotten a chance to read through. um It definitely goes in those places that you just described um and I love the weaving of present day, here's a conflict,
00:04:33
Speaker
And here are the roots of it. Here's here's you know why we are susceptible to responding in this way. And the trauma-informed piece of it just yeah really is is very present um and and and and super helpful. thank Thank you. One of the things we've appreciated about you and Becky through the years is how clear you are that you're both still learning about each other.
00:05:00
Speaker
and that in your 70s, which I think you're, are you at 40 ish years of marriage? We're rising to 48. to 48. Okay. Okay. Congratulations. But yeah, but you're still learning and you're still more than that willing to learn. You're not willing to settle. And so that gives those of us, we're at 31 years that gives others of us so much hope, um, that there is more. And that's one of the things you, you guys say when you start out the book that no matter how your marriage is functioning now, even if you call it good,
00:05:40
Speaker
God has more in mind, and I felt very compelled by that.

Dan's Marriage Insights

00:05:45
Speaker
I'm so glad. ah What I've said publicly, privately, and it would not be something that my wife would be surprised that I'd say, is that I have never known a taste of what I believe I will know in heaven, as I have known in the context of my relationship with Becky.
00:06:04
Speaker
And I'd also say, I also have a taste of what I will never have to suffer, and that's a taste of hell. So there's an extremity that I believe to be true certainly of my and our marriage. But I think it's true of every marriage, but particularly every good marriage. When you think about what constitutes a good marriage, I think for many people, it's the absence of extremity.
00:06:34
Speaker
not that much high, not that much low, pretty stable and good. And yeah, there's growth that's progressing, but we just accept one another fully as to who we are. Yes, things could be better, but we're pretty satisfied with where it is. And you go,
00:06:52
Speaker
There's something good about that. I'm not mocking it, but I do think that the nature of a redemptive marriage is that it will expose, it will allure and invite, it will disturb, it will just have elements to which it's more than just we have conflict,
00:07:14
Speaker
It's that there are realities that are rising for both of us in the process that we could never, I would never have expected, even in our first 10 or 20 years. So I think in that sense, I am still fascinated by this incredible human being that I get to be married to. As long as you understand, that incredible human being has brought me both heaven and hell.

Personal Wounds in Marriage

00:07:40
Speaker
Well, that is one of the thoughts that you have modeled in in the different marriage workshops that we've been to. And and it comes through in the writing that has given us like comfort. It's been like, oh, we can exhale. Because that's part of what I think was driving us crazy for a while at different points in our marriage when we it would be so good. And we were so grateful. We were best friends before we got any dating involved and got married. And then we hit these just explosions and difficult conflicts that were like, who are these people? And how do we how how do we get here? how do How do we not see this coming? how do we you know We just didn't expect that we would disappoint each other to the degree that we did. And of course, we couldn't make any sense of it for the longest time. It was just, oh, everybody fight. You have conflict. It's only in the the more recent years of like really plumbing those depths, you sort of see there's this setup, it feels like by God, that both
00:08:37
Speaker
can be a ticket to some great joy and intimacy when we actually attune to each other and and care. But at times it's exasperating, it's maddening. It's like, how can this wound of mine be so horribly designed to tell everything to you? Right. and And I would say with the couples I sit with,
00:08:58
Speaker
It is almost, it's it's close to 90% of the time. their Their wounds are so at odds. So she is afraid of being left and he is afraid of being required of. She is afraid of him taking too much from her and he's afraid he'll never be chosen. So it it just every time and you're like, what is God's purpose in this? So I'm curious, what do you see?
00:09:27
Speaker
Well, I think we marry for redemption. we we Whether we're conscious of that, I would say 99.2%, we're not. We don't know what we're marrying and why we're marrying other than we fit, we like each other, we love, we're aroused, we're intrigued, it fits. But what we don't name is, the the fit is somehow, I think,
00:09:56
Speaker
You will bring me what it is that I so desperately need but don't have the courage to actually name. So in that sense, longing brings us into that connection.
00:10:11
Speaker
But we have not, as you I think you put it so well, Chris, we haven't plumbed the depths. And in one sense, we haven't even done a spadeful to get closer to what the roots are that brought us together.

Early Marriage Challenges

00:10:25
Speaker
So what brings us together generally creates the context of our deepest disappointment.
00:10:32
Speaker
There's a sense of witness. I haven't named you'll redeem me, but when you don't redeem me, I'm aware, damn it, you have kept me from what my heart most deeply desires. So our desire becomes the raging disappointment.
00:10:51
Speaker
And in that, we have no one in one sense to blame but our spouse. And so there's such the obvious fault. They have not done X, Y, and Z. And usually, it's also true, they haven't done X, Y, and Z. But we haven't really understood why that echoes so deep within us.
00:11:12
Speaker
And that's part of what the book is intended to do, is to invite you to that question of what drew you together beyond the lovely surface, which does not mean superficial, but the lovely surface structures. There's a far deeper reality that even when you just do a spadeful or two, you begin to get a sense of, oh, the soil needs tender, wise, yes sir to be able to, in one sense, grow the good, good, good fruit that we all desire. That's been one of the powerful things, I think, that we've experienced from from your your work and your encouragement as well, is just that idea of having to do your own healing and having to really get honest about what was I looking for, what

Consciousness in Relationships

00:12:05
Speaker
did I think. And and and going back behind that,
00:12:09
Speaker
what were the the wounds that formed that. um and And I loved how you talk about bringing bringing that and making it conscious, conscious which you you really, you can't do. And as you described in the endorphins and the high of early love. and you know you're not sitting there and analyzing who my wonder you know what do you need this might be meeting and what am i running from or trying to get. I have this crazy idea in reading in in reading the excerpts that you gave us up we almost ought to have like a second marriage ceremony sometime later in life it's like honest now.
00:12:44
Speaker
and like Instead of trying to consume and get life out of you, I promise from now forward to take care of myself and approach you kindly when I have a need or something like that. Just to reset the whole thing with some honesty would would be fun.

Daily Vows and Blessings

00:13:00
Speaker
Yes. Well, and we we do have a chapter toward the end of the book on blessing versus cursing. And really what I'm getting at in that chapter is that when we bless, it's a form of a vow. And so the vows we took when we were very young, of course we had no clue what was truly involved yet.
00:13:26
Speaker
I do believe there was sincerity. There was ah a desire to live that out. But we get over multiple, multiple iterations of failure, of then honest engagement, and then repair and restoration. We really do get to a point where we're making a form of a vow, a blessing each and every day. So yeah, I think again, we don't do this work because it's just necessary. We do this work because of the promise of joy. Like I would not invite anyone into the engagement with more truth, more honesty, more vulnerability, and less.

Trauma's Role in Relationships

00:14:14
Speaker
There was something of the allure that the truth will set you free. And the greater freedom you have to be able to engage, I love again how you put it Chris, the wounds, you both have named that. You know, for Becky and I, I came from a relationship primarily with a mother who was ah possessive, controlling, ah if if folks know the term, borderline personality disorder. And so she was erratic, cruel, funny, witty, and that could be all within two minutes. Or
00:14:52
Speaker
it overwhelmed and ah insecure and yet on the other moment bold and confident. So I lived in a constant set of uncertainty whereas Becky grew up with a father who was generous but ah unpredictable, but also a mother who was incredibly predictable in her own anger and cruelty. So our worlds were such that Becky was really good at hiding, really good at making sure she was no burden to anyone at any level.
00:15:30
Speaker
I grew up having to tend to my mother's craziness, and so and though I didn't have it in my mind, I didn't have it conscious, I chose a spouse who would not require of me to tend to her own emotional wounds.
00:15:49
Speaker
I needed a woman who was secure, confident, but required virtually nothing from me. She needed a man who was very insightful, very attuned, but in some sense was not going to require her her to escape, in some sense, the hiddenness that she lived in. So we worked incredibly well, at least for certain periods, until the structure of our own woundedness began to bring wounds to one another. And that's always the case, I think, for all couples. Your wounds drew you together. Your wounds eventually alienate one another.
00:16:34
Speaker
I mean, that resonates with our experience, but yeah, say what you were gonna say, yeah. Yeah, so you know we met when we were 13, married when we were 22, and we were, I would say, very high-functioning and very resilient, such that we didn't know the the true story of what we had left. We had minimized that.
00:16:59
Speaker
We knew Chris came from a divorced home with a mentally ill dad. um I knew my home was critical. um But we were really good kids. And so the church was excited. Our friends were excited. And then it all hit the fan after we were married and we realized we, in fact, were looking for something from the other that we were not getting.
00:17:23
Speaker
And so I think pretty quickly, because we had not even really argued during dating or engagement. we had I think we had two, because we had been friends for so long, but we had two conflicts of any sort I remember in that dating engagement. And it was so strange. We did like, we had no context, yeah no idea.
00:17:42
Speaker
what to do with it, because we had both you know been so agreeable and yeah yeah and just everything was easy. And and it was very destabilizing. And it and we were like, do we break up? Does this mean we're not compatible? And we we kind of worked through it and didn't get, we didn't have a lot of conflict at all then. It was really after after marriage and it's just the two of us. right And then it happened very quickly. And we were, I think, very surprised those first two years of And suddenly, yeah, suddenly these two people were very angry because we began to realize there is something I was determined you would give me and you are not. Now it's taking decades to get to the depth of exactly what that is um and the the situations and circumstances that landed us with those needs. But we, that was a very hard early season.
00:18:34
Speaker
I think that's one of the things that's been so encouraging, again, and helps us feel less not that we we have crazy making behaviors and ways that we would act and treat each other, but we feel less crazy in the big picture, like, of course.
00:18:50
Speaker
we would step on each other's, once we start seeing kind of where we're coming from and and the wounds that formed us, it starts to make sense. Oh, that that I understand our rage. I understand why certain things feel like more of a betrayal, like more of a, oh my gosh, um I'm gonna die. you know That level of sort of, and I love how you you kind of capture this in the book, there's a threat response really in us that gets activated and it comes out of the blue. I was Mr. Youth Group, nice guy, valedictorian, super smart. And here I am, two years in our marriage, I kick a chair over in anger. A pastor had given us this chair for our first little house that we had is poor grad students. This pastor had given us this chair and somehow to fight. I'm wearing a big boot or something, but I kicked the crap out of it. It was such a cute little chair.
00:19:44
Speaker
And it just split in the top. And we're like, wait a minute. And she you're like, where is this? I mean, right no clue of any storm brewing in me. And then boom. And you're running and hiding in the bathroom and closing the door and and shutting down. And you're just, we have no mores, no category for this um and to begin with.
00:20:08
Speaker
but i love Talk a little bit about how kind of you know the the trauma aspect of things, and again, how it sort of, I think you talk about it, it sort of sets up the operating system and the song and dance sort of, kind of maybe speak

Making Sense of Past Experiences

00:20:20
Speaker
to some of that. Yeah, what the the word you've used several times, is it it makes sense.
00:20:26
Speaker
And you know when we use that word sense, usually what we mean is um i haven't I have a kind of mental category to be able to interpret what's going on. And I think that is a good beginning point to say that any kind of trauma fragments, any kind of deep disruption creates a kind of like,
00:20:52
Speaker
i don't I don't know how to add 2 plus 2. I thought I did. But now the algorithm of our relationship now has variables that, quote unquote, make no sense. And I think for many of us, we just go back to our computers or you know to the mechanism to be able to go, well, I'm going to put the figures in and it will come up and be right. We want something quick, clear, and right.
00:21:20
Speaker
versus being able to go, wait a minute, of course, how I've been shaped is going to play out 5, 10, 20, 30 years from those significant events, whether that's what we can broadly call developmental trauma, which means essentially how much attachment did

Attachment and Emotional Containment

00:21:47
Speaker
you have in your family? And that's always the category of attunement. How did people get you? Did people get you? Did they feel you? Did they understand? And were they able to bring
00:21:59
Speaker
that kind of I get you into relationship with you and then the ability to hold you and that's usually where we use the word containment. Can I hold what you're suffering or does it infuriate me or scare me or I have to back away? Can I hold your existence in a way in which I provide you the boundaries to be able to Explore to fail, to fall, but still get back up. So even those two questions, did somebody get you? Did somebody hold and respect you? And if the answer is, oh, sometimes.
00:22:40
Speaker
Well, that's already an attachment wound. Then the question is, did the people in your world have the ability to name? I'm so sorry, honey. i'm I am angry. And I am angry now. And I know my anger is meant to intimidate you and to make you suffer. And I know that's happening right now. Did a parent have the ability to name the impact of their own failure on you? And if the answer is no,
00:23:10
Speaker
Well, then there wasn't repair. So when we talk about trauma, we're talking of initially about what could be called the more subtle, not so subtle, but developmental trauma.

Surviving Trauma

00:23:23
Speaker
Then you add the reality of, were you bullied?
00:23:27
Speaker
Were you abused? and Were you sexually abused? Were you spiritually abused? Were you emotionally, physically harmed? So when you begin to add the more capital T trauma, then the larger question is, how did you survive? How did you make it through Whether you'd say it wasn't that bad of a childhood. Great. um That's fantastic. How did you make it through? Or devastatingly horrible. How did you make it through? And there is so much beauty.
00:24:02
Speaker
yeah I mean, stunning, staggering glory in how you survived. And again, you used, you know, amphetamines to make it through the insanity of your depressed home. You used pornography to make it through the sexually abusive world. Again, I'm not blessing sin, but what I'm saying is to whatever degree you were finding some means to keep your head above water, there is something good in that. And again, complex. Is pornography good? No! But your use of pornography kept you alive long enough to begin the process of beginning to deal with it. Is that good? Yes. So we can hold complexity if we begin to enter trauma in a way in which we can then look at how broken it is that indeed the structures. I learned to be very intimidating. I learned to cause a lot of trouble. I learned to get into the kind of difficulties that would keep my mother at bay. If my primary job was to be in her web and to be available to be eaten whenever she needed to eat me,
00:25:19
Speaker
um I also had to find a way to get cut myself out of her web. And the only thing I would do is get into trouble. And whenever I got into trouble, whether that was being arrested or breaking into a house or stealing a car or just causing trouble in school, for a period of time, my mother would not engage

Personal Anecdotes on Trauma

00:25:43
Speaker
me.
00:25:43
Speaker
Meaning she would allow out and that icing out for a day or a week and or even maybe I can remember one time longer almost two months where she wouldn't speak to me that was like being Sent to the Bahamas that was like the sweetest gift in the world. I'm out of the web so a kid who has his own developmental trauma plus the experience of sexual abuse and other forms of bullying and harm. By the time that kind of human being gets into a marriage, well, Becky and I in the middle of a fight, I'm i'm swearing. I'm raging. I'm intense.
00:26:28
Speaker
um Now, what's crazy is ah Becky lived in a very verbally violent world, so the experience of being yelled at was... not a big deal to her. and And she had the ability to kind of get into the fray and fight, but then she would just quit and she would go hide. And in that hiding, some was fear, but a lot of it was she knew it was going to make me pay to stop fighting. And therefore it was her brilliant way in her own trauma simultaneously to create trauma for me. So we're a mess.
00:27:07
Speaker
and you go and you're married yeah and you're youre you're you're you're a pastor yeah and you're being trained to be a therapist yeah all that's true and this reality let's just say very few people outside of the small group we were in would even have a hint of that reality.

Private vs Public Life

00:27:30
Speaker
So it is one of the hard realities of trying to invite people to a book like this. Like we're taking you in to what the church and oftentimes the community of God doesn't want to have to address. But we all know that what happened in the car prior to getting to church is not generally what occurs when you get out of the car
00:27:52
Speaker
and make your way into church. And the duplicity, I can only say at times for us, the utter hypocrisy. I remember one time our eight-year-old, nine-year-old, dot ah oldest daughter, as we fought in the car, got to church and got out and put on our happy faces, she literally sat in the car and said, I'm not getting out.
00:28:17
Speaker
And I'm like, yes, you're getting out. She's going, drag me out. Pull me out. If you do, you'll probably get arrested. um And I'm like, just get out. And she said, I cannot bear that I'm with people who are raging. And now I'm supposed to go into church with people whose hearts are happy.

Honesty of Children

00:28:42
Speaker
And I'm like, oh, I'm being caught. I'm being exposed and caught and as awful, truly awful as those moments are, they are so imperative if one really does want to grow. Yes. I mean, how brilliant of her
00:29:03
Speaker
but how much integrity in you that you let her catch you. Because it would have been very easy to shut her down and stay in a power war. Now, she had some power. She could scream and she could tell whoever she wanted. And it sounds like she had enough spice that she probably would have. But you nonetheless, you let her teach you.
00:29:31
Speaker
I'm laughing because you reminded me of a story where one time we were in a fight kind of going into church and at church and we had driven separately and we were still not talking. You could still feel sort of, no but i don't we don't know if anybody else picked up on it, but we were not really talking. So we left separately and about five minutes after we got away from the church, somebody calls and says, Hey, did you mean to leave your your youngest child here?
00:29:56
Speaker
view that's She was like seven and she was like, um, mom, I'm still at church. Oh, good casualty I hope people hear this with the interplay of both grief and laughter.

Humorous Church Story

00:30:13
Speaker
Yes. Yes. We're not saying, Hey, a funny story for your family. no We were horrified, but we were also caught because we were both in such a triggered state and we were so tunnel vision like happens when you are are reliving something and, and and you know, you're your body is reacting and and kind of on autopilot. And so rational brain is off prefrontal cortex, not accessible. And so much so that, you know, you don't make a, we had three kids, only three to keep up with. We're not like we had a whole, you know, a big mess of them. and It was like three and one of them just doesn't make the right heart. That's right.
00:30:50
Speaker
Well, it it could be called church alone. So you know we've we've we've got the holiday special. ah And in that, yeah again, I'm not going to deny there was integrity to eventually address it. But what what what nailed me was CPS. Yeah, if I drag you out, the probability is I'll get arrested. And in that was ah enough shame and enough truth to literally stop me to be able to take the reality of what she then said about the contrast between who you are in the car, who we are in the church, and the difference is dark. The difference is so fundamentally deceitful.
00:31:43
Speaker
Hey folks, we're going to pause the conversation right there and divide this conversation into two different episodes. So be on the lookout for part two of this episode of the Surviving Saturday podcast. I want to take a minute though here in this interstitial space to extend an invitation, particularly to any men out there who might be listening or ladies, maybe you can pass this invitation

Invitation to Sampson Society

00:32:06
Speaker
on. to your guy if you think it might be worthwhile. I am part of a nationwide organization, really an international organization called the Sampson Society. and The Sampson Society is a fellowship of Christian men who are serious about authentic relationship and authentic community.
00:32:23
Speaker
humility and recovery, particularly from various forms of addiction, brokenness in relationships, anything kind of, any kind of hidden struggles or difficulties that men may have had. If you want to find out more about what Samsung Society is about, you can check out the website SamsungSociety.com and also they have a fantastic podcast that is called the Pirate Monk Podcast. Pirate and then monk-like Monk in a Monastery. The name comes from a book that was written by a pastor named Nate Larkin back in early 2000s called Samson and the Pirate Monks calling him into authentic brotherhood and that's another way you could learn about the organization as well. It's been a
00:33:05
Speaker
real great blessing to me in finding some honest, real, down-to-earth brothers to walk with, to share honestly about what's going on in our lives. It's really some of my favorite people that I've encountered have on a journey and doing work to understand why we are the way we are, why we react and operate the ways that we do, particularly when we're stressed and lonely and frustrated and all things like that and it's a great just fellowship and a positive just an alternative to to what you might find out there sometimes if you know a community in your church or in your normal circles of friends is not really coming out like you'd like it.
00:33:52
Speaker
Why I'm mentioning it now is because I am actually one of the co-chairs of the Charlotte Chapter, which now meets on Wednesday nights in Matthews. And so if you have any interest at all in just coming and checking out and meeting sometime and seeing what we're all about and meeting some of the other really great guys who are involved, please shoot me an email at chris at nurture counseling dot net and I'd be glad to give you some more information and let you find out when and where we meet and see if you want to come by and visit, pop in. You don't have to say anything, you don't have to do anything. and I can show you other ways to get involved in the organization as well. So again, just shoot me an email if you're interested and we'd love to have you come and visit sometime. Take care and we'll see you on the next episode of the Surviving Saturday Podcast.