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The Trials and Tribulations of True Transformation-Pt. 2
59 Plays7 months ago
Spiritual formation is somehow both simple and yet really really hard.
On the one hand, being made like Jesus is God's work, something he promised to do and form and bring alive in us. It is the divine work of the Holy Spirit that God IS doing and will continue doing in us. Spiritual disciplines can feel less laborious when we understand them less as duties or requirements, and more like putting ourselves in a posture of receiving from God what he is always ready and waiting to give: comfort, wisdom for living, his peace that passes understanding, and his abiding presence.
And at the same time, we are often most poignantly formed by fire. It is in the crucible of suffering that we finally come to the end ourselves, and learn what it truly means to "lay our deadly doing down, down at Jesus feet" and trust him alone (for real). The testing of our faith--the moments of wrestling in the dark with honest questions about God's compassion and goodness and power and provision--is what brings about perseverance, and character, and hope, etc.
Join Chris and Wendy for the second episode in a 2 part series on transformation: how does it happen, what does it often require, and what are the fruits or benefits that (we hope and pray) make it all worthwhile?
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Transcript
Introduction to Surviving Saturday
00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome to Surviving Saturday, a podcast about holding on to hope in the midst of life's difficulties, disappointments, and dark seasons. Times like that remind us of the agony and despair the followers of Jesus felt on the Saturday of Easter weekend, in between the Friday on which he was crucified and the Sunday on which he rose from the dead.
00:00:23
Speaker
That someday forever changed the way that humans can relate to God. But what does it look like to be honest about the very real pain we experience in the in
Roles and Podcast Focus
00:00:32
Speaker
-between? To fervently cling to hope in the God who promised us his peace and his presence at times when he feels distant or even cruel. I'm Wendy Osborne, a licensed counselor in Charlotte, North Carolina. And I'm her husband, Chris, a marriage mediator, conflict resolution coach, and trauma-informed story work coach.
00:00:51
Speaker
Join us each episode for authentic conversations about how life not turning out as we'd expected has created the contextual soil for the growth of a tenacious hope in the resurrection and in a God who is still making all things new.
Transformation and Growth: Metaphors and Insights
00:01:08
Speaker
Hey folks, welcome to another episode of the Surviving Saturday podcast. This is a part two of a just two-part series that we're doing about transformation and transitioning and being formed into the people that God wants us to be. We all have heard the idea of, oh gosh, yes, be imitators of Christ and just try to be like Jesus. And I don't know about other people's experience, but
00:01:37
Speaker
The way I feel like I've gotten closer to him and hoping to show up and live and love more like him has not been by, I think I'll decide. I think I will do it. Now is the time. Let me put on these characteristics.
00:01:52
Speaker
process for me more of of when he referred last time to sort of being uprooted and being kind of mowed down almost like a plant and I resonate with some of that but there's probably some other metaphors that work for me but it's it's had to be forged it's had to be I feel like God's got it had to do a lot more work on the soil and the substrate I'm not sure you know so I
00:02:16
Speaker
Yeah, I was thinking as I was thinking about you and coming back just with my plant metaphor and it probably made a different one for you, but like you're in a season of being transplanted.
00:02:28
Speaker
transplant that is good i hadn't even thought of that word for it um yeah so from your work with your garden fairy and you've done some transplanting around the house like how do you know when you need to transplant when you need to take a plant from one place to another what does that look like usually the little guy is like busting out of the pot
00:02:49
Speaker
So if you like put your hands around the plastic pot you will feel it bulging. Really? It's like getting too big for its little plant britches. Okay and can you tell it in terms of like the health of the plant?
00:03:04
Speaker
Yeah, because these plants they will communicate with you and if they need something or they don't like what you're giving them like the pots too small or the sunlight or the watering is not right They will you know the first obvious thing is the wilt But after that they I've had little guys that like just shed all their leaves and They're like well fine. I'm not gonna have any leaves for you and they just drop them all okay
00:03:33
Speaker
Well, for some reason, I want to think more about that metaphor because I had not really couched it in those terms. The metaphor that has felt apt for me has much more been, and it's somewhat maybe hackneyed in every use, but the idea of a caterpillar
00:03:54
Speaker
cocooning and then emerging as a butterfly, which I sort of learned the eighth grade science level of. It's like, oh yeah, they are just in this little cocoon and they're just kind of sitting there hanging out and the change stuff happens and oh, butterfly wings.
00:04:09
Speaker
But I read and had some learning on that not too long ago and there's actually some serious stuff going down in the cocoon. There's like wrestling and digestion and like the old parts of the caterpillar really have to be sort of somehow ground up or you know they have to fall away and die off and then
00:04:33
Speaker
If you think about it, like we can picture a bird, you know, oh, the birds come out with wings, you know, they just can't use them to start with. But wings have to come from somewhere in that caterpillar and then they have to kind of get strength. And from what I've heard and what I've learned, they are as they're stretching, as those wings are stretching against the cocoon that's holding them in.
00:04:54
Speaker
that's where they're building strength that's like that's where they're doing their reps they're like doing the muscles are are growing and and the first thing they have to do is sort of you know survive being in this darkness but then they kind of break out but it's still a process it's not like
00:05:09
Speaker
one second they're in there, next second they're flying. There's still this struggle in wrestling and it's sticky for a while and the stuff is holding on to you. It's a bloody process. It is. Because when the kids were little, we ordered one of those little kits in the mail that was like, grow your own butterflies. Yes. I remember with the whole netting and everything. Yeah. So it comes with all these caterpillars and you put them inside this big kind of
00:05:34
Speaker
nylon cage. Yeah. And it has mesh and they build their cocoons and then you watch the cocoons and the directions kind of tell you about how long you'll be watching the cocoons. And I remember the kids getting up one morning and being like, mom, I think they're dead and there's blood everywhere.
00:05:55
Speaker
Oh my gosh. Yeah. It turns out there were actually butterflies, but they had in coming out of the cocoon a whole lot happens. It's messy. It's like a bird. Yes. It is a birth. And that, that has felt more resonant for me in this last season.
Chris's Professional and Spiritual Journey
00:06:13
Speaker
Cause I really did kind of come to me probably last year, even at some point like where I've been has been somewhat like cocooning, like more of a withdrawal from
00:06:25
Speaker
some things in my life, some people, some relationships, some, like vocationally especially, just kind of like, you know what, I've had a law firm, a small law firm with people that I've employed, I've had an education business with people I've employed and trying to go around and do a lot of presentations, things like that, but over the last year, probably almost exactly,
00:06:46
Speaker
stepping away from that or shrinking that down to just be me my law firm is just me and Doing more mediations, but also doing a lot Just for the formation of my soul and really just wrestling with Okay, who actually am I supposed to be? I've had been blessed with a rich and rewarding legal career. I've taught law school I've worked as a mediator and collaborative family lawyer and all of that has been a
00:07:16
Speaker
good, but it hasn't been the thing. It hasn't been, I started probably two years ago wrestling with, I'm still not in the place where I think I'm supposed to, or maybe I'm not the person I'm supposed to be. That's sort of, it's sort of tied up. Maybe those were places for other times. Yes, yes. I think they were formative for sure, but there was this sense of
00:07:38
Speaker
It's not settled. I'm not like at the end destination, like neither of the ventures that I helped build and started just took off and became its own thing. Even the, you know, three years teaching as a law professor, which was awesome and I loved it. And then that law school has terrible problems and I got out before it went completely to shit, but it basically,
00:08:00
Speaker
I thought I was there. I thought, oh, this is it. And then it closed. It closed. Yeah. It closed after I left. And really a couple of years ago, I started just wrestling with that, grieving some of that, um, and, and exploring, well, you know, if I'm not going to stay doing what I'm doing, what's that going to look like? Um, and, and really the last year I would say has been,
00:08:24
Speaker
agonizing. Um, it's been lonely. It's been hard at times. Um, and I'm an extrovert. I love being around people, but I, I was, you know, found myself more, at first I was thinking it was kind of like an island, but it wasn't an island. This cocoon idea has made more
00:08:42
Speaker
Since because I think I went into I remember I went into 2023 With sort of in our in our faith community in our church So we get to several people choose like a word of the year and kind of what's your word of the year? What's God developing in you? What's you know raising up in you? Yes, and I remember the word I think I chose a word for 2022 and it was threshold I felt like I'm on the threshold of something. I feel like something's coming something's got to change I don't know what
00:09:12
Speaker
Yeah, and I sort of started exploring that being open to that and I was looking at you know a lot of different things Went through that year and and the next like last year I chose the word one and the word I chose the number one Okay, and and the the prayer and the idea behind that was what is the one?
00:09:34
Speaker
Thing God that you want me to do I've worn multiple hats there's part of me that likes wearing multiple hats But then there's like yeah, but what's the one thing that I need to be about all the time I can see themes Flowing through all the things I've done the intersection of the counseling world mental health world and law and
00:09:53
Speaker
is where I've done speaking presentation and I love the intersection of that. But what's the one way that that's going to manifest is sort of what I was really trying to pray with and pray and wrestle through. And it was probably around this time last year I started really actually opening my heart back up to the idea of
00:10:13
Speaker
Actually, it might be that I need to just get educated in counseling and move towards counseling and and and I started getting more leaning more into that passion where I've been counseling adjacent certainly beneficiary of all this counseling and What would that look like and I remember for years I had said, you know if I could snap my fingers and do it I would but I can't
00:10:38
Speaker
So I won't. And then sort of what gets happening is something gets stirred in me and I decide that, well, let me start moving that direction. And some of that has been, you know, kind of following some of your lead, honestly, watching the places where you experience
Community and Healing: Embracing Change
00:10:53
Speaker
healing and growth and transformation. And you were gracious enough to say, you know, you might enjoy doing that as well. So the narrative focused trauma care at Allender.
00:11:03
Speaker
has been powerful for that to be in the presence of other people sort of seeing you and inviting you to be more your real self is the best way I can put it in short term like people seeing hey here's how you show up and how much of that is reactionary or loyalty to where you came from and how you were formed and how much of that you know how you can show up is what God has imbued you with as put in you
00:11:32
Speaker
And so that sort of I think doing an FTC one was was a big format in this and then I did two last year Leading into going I'm coming up on the anniversary actually of going to recovery week With Dan Allender and Jay and Adam and all that and it was just I remember I'll just treasure it just the
00:11:55
Speaker
Yeah, those men have very much formed you in the last few years.
00:12:07
Speaker
How would you describe what Jesus has done in you through them and also apart from them? But what has he done? What's he been up to? I think it's been partly, there's been a stripping away of being on a stage, being able to perform, command, be in charge. There's been a lot of just dismantling of that.
00:12:34
Speaker
not for the sake of just complete destruction and we're just gonna kill us but like There's aspects of that that are truly closer to me Than what I was doing before like the idea now of going back and being just a litigator like I was for the first 20 years my career No, you know, I don't even resonate with that. Like I feel like a different person But what are what are the common? What is the necessary thing? So I would say it's an invitation
00:13:01
Speaker
really to my own healing. Like to dive deeper into more of my story. How did I get formed to care about the things I do, to have the buttons that I have that can get pushed, the triggers, but also the passions that I have.
00:13:17
Speaker
And it really, it feels like I use the metaphor, a lot of a wrestling match with God. But in the last year, it's been like I'm wrestling in this cocoon and I started feeling, oh, this is where the stretching and the growth is happening. But for a lot of the time, it just felt dark and it felt lonely and it felt foreign, I think. Well, I was there for one of the times, Dan,
00:13:47
Speaker
put words to the darkness you were up against. Oh yes. And helped you see there was a pathway out but it would be a costly pathway. Yes. To go from the darkness into the light that God has made you for.
00:14:11
Speaker
and the light of who he has made you. Yes. It was at a marriage retreat in October of 22 and it was a small intimate marriage retreat where it was like three couples with Dan and Becky and then three couples with Steve and Lisa Call who we love tremendously.
00:14:31
Speaker
And the purpose was to dive into your story and how does it show up in your marriage? How does it show up for you in life now? And Dan kind of came straight at an aspect of my family story that I was very uncomfortable with and that I, I think you, in my observation, you felt the need to protect it. Yeah. Because I think to let it be demolished
00:14:56
Speaker
What I felt, and you can disagree with this, was if you were to let it be dismantled, then what would you have left?
00:15:06
Speaker
And he was calling that into question. Yes. Yeah. And he's building on, I think a few months before that, I had sat with Jay and dots had been connected and things that I did not understand about my story. Dark places that, you know, had been hidden because of the way my particular family trauma played out.
00:15:28
Speaker
And then Dan kind of comes at it and sort of provoked him. I, my initial response was anger. I think, I think I said very, very unkind, very cruel things back to him. Like who the hell are you to, I don't think I use that even nicer word. Um, you didn't, um, can take it. He, yeah, he is more committed to healing than his own safety. Well, and the people who are around us as well, it was this fascinating mix where everybody was on a journey.
00:15:56
Speaker
Oh gosh, yes. There were some people who are like super rock stars in their career and they were getting laid low in their family and their ability to trust in their own competence, which was off the charts. They were competent freaking people and let losses and death and challenges were taking them out and seeing them lean in and them see, we could see stuff for them. They could see stuff for us. This, this community of realness. I think we got a taste of it there.
00:16:23
Speaker
And then I got a little bit of it, but it wasn't quite the full thing. I went to a conference a year ago with a bunch of folks in law who were trying to bring trauma informed principles into law. And I'm like, yeah, these are my people too. This, this resonates, but it wasn't healing and transformative enough for me, but then going to recovery week.
00:16:41
Speaker
One of the best things about it was when you arrived it's funny we're all gathering at the airport waiting for the bus to take us to the beautiful retreat center outside Seattle and everybody knows why you're there. You're there to come talk about abuse and harm from your family of origin and so there was no room for fakery. It was kind of very freeing. We joked about it since. I've stayed in touch with
00:17:02
Speaker
Several of those men a couple of them become really dear friends and we talked about godly Wasn't it nice to just not have to pretend for a second like you couldn't pretend for a second? Nobody's gonna let you but also you knew why you were there. In fact, we're riding on the bus to You know, I think we're in two different groups of folks Two different buses, but one of the buses like the driver. So what are y'all in town for?
00:17:29
Speaker
And one guy just goes, well, we're all going on a retreat to process sexual abuse in our past or something like that. There was something about naming the truth that was just freeing. And it doesn't mean everybody was perfect and there weren't relational stuff to be worked through. We were all in process. But the realness that I experienced there with Dan, Wendell. Well, I think when you have grace,
00:17:58
Speaker
for yourself to be in process. Yes. You're willing to have grace for other people who are also on their journey. Well, and that's what I saw happen. So that's why I would say that really catalyzed just I realized the one thing that Jesus was doing in me is like making me a different person.
00:18:20
Speaker
that was actually freeing me up from so much pressure to get what's the vocational setting, what is the thing I'm supposed to do became secondary. And God was like, I got more for you on who you're supposed to be.
00:18:33
Speaker
And I felt that happening as I'm there with these men. And basically the whole process is geared towards honesty and telling your story and then recognizing that none of us can tell our story honestly and accurately.
00:18:51
Speaker
we're not objective reporters of it, especially when it's things from childhood, we have a child's brain perspective on it, which is tried to make sense of it a certain way and cast the characters in a certain light because your child brain is making sense of all this. Then when other people enter in with you and engage with that with wisdom and kindness, they are naming stuff that your little
00:19:14
Speaker
my little brain was not able to handle. I couldn't have named how horrific certain aspects of this were, how troubling they were at that age because nobody can. You can't. Your brain at that age is trying to make sense of the world in a way that will help you survive. And so you're black and white,
00:19:36
Speaker
There's good guys, there's bad guys. And then you adopt a role. And that's, I think, a part of what I really was introduced to. There's a role that I was groomed into, shaped into, that I started forming that really
00:19:51
Speaker
set me up and set me up to interact in the world a certain way. And when you were young, it kept you in connection with people that you needed to be connected with. It did. It worked and I learned how to play the game. I was youth group kid. I was co-validatorian, smart guy. I looked polished because I was determined.
00:20:15
Speaker
to look good. Full scholarship to college, full scholarship to law school. You learned, yeah, you learned your role and how you could make it in the world. When I learned to, I mean, my brain and my mouth would basically be what would get me through life and some of my kindness, but brain and mouth and ability to talk were where I would go to.
00:20:40
Speaker
And in this real community, that kind of stuff is stripped away. And people like, I've had multiple people in, either in NFTC or in that training say, love your words. Appreciate that you are gifted with words. And you know, words are, one guy said, oh, this is dear to me forever. He said words are like a cloak. And a cloak can be really good. A cloak can bring warmth. A cloak can bring care and shelter.
00:21:09
Speaker
but cloaks also are what we can use for hiding. And I love when you... And separation from another person's actual touch. And what this person said was, I love when you use the gifting that you have
00:21:25
Speaker
but you hold it loosely and I'm not there I can even tell a difference more and more of when I have to do it when I'm doing it for that you know let me show you let me dazzle let me impress you let me keep you close because I'm special you know so I'm you mentioned Enneagram in your talk last time and I'm Enneagram seven and I'm basically the enthusiast the kind of the performer the you know if you want somebody to sell something or get people excited about things I mean I can I can do that and I
00:21:54
Speaker
there's a dark side to that as well. I want you to see the show, the sideshow, and I had to face, that can be a way of keeping you at a distance. You won't know the real me, and you won't know my real pain or my real failure if I've got you dazzled.
00:22:13
Speaker
Well, and that part low key cracks me up in the way God put together a four and a seven. And I don't know how it usually goes, but you like the show. And you ain't impressed by it. Yeah. What did you say the other day? I'm chronically unimpressed. Yes. Yes. Yes. It's very true. In general, and a four values authenticity and honesty.
00:22:39
Speaker
And so when I see your performance, that drives me wild. My sensitivity and commitment to
00:22:52
Speaker
actually how things are, drives you crazy. It's a learning curve. It's a combination of my seven and battling ADD and some people say, gosh, aren't all ADD sevens
Authenticity and Future Goals
00:23:04
Speaker
or vice versa. I don't know. I haven't mapped any of that, but yeah, I'm like, aren't you impressed? Look at the show, but you can tell you got a good BS detector when it's
00:23:14
Speaker
is there real depth beside it. So what I recognized in this cocooning year is God is changing who I am and how I show up. And the vocational piece
00:23:25
Speaker
still important and still in process. And what I've done partly with that is having experienced and tasted this healing, having sat with a group of men and there was no artifice whatsoever. There was no hiding. You couldn't hide and you couldn't spin or perform in a way that Wendell Moss would buy it.
00:23:51
Speaker
Or Jay Stringer or Adam Young would buy it. That's not your real self. And that anger sort of came out some when they went into some of that protective anger in some of the same places, but then it broke down and it became profound grief. Or another stage of grief rather, because anger is part of grief as well.
00:24:13
Speaker
What's fascinating about this is, you know, as I've gotten tastes of so I started counseling grad school ended up starting in the fall. It's been formative continuing that. And then
00:24:29
Speaker
being called to this sort of place of accessing feelings and accessing grief. And as I've started working with, as you and I work with couples or I work with individuals, I sat with somebody beautiful today, just a lovely person I've been getting to know and sit with.
00:24:44
Speaker
and I was able just to, I'm inviting them to grieve and go into those hurt places of their story and they have a horrific story and a story of horrible abandonment and pain and I felt myself present and different. How did you feel different? Like I might have had this person as somebody I shepherded or cared for in a community group or in a church setting years ago and I probably would have had some
00:25:10
Speaker
Scripture to offer them in some kindness and I would have been compassionate. I wasn't a cold, you know unfeeling person now today I I wept with this person and for this person who isn't at the place yet where they can
00:25:25
Speaker
even they want to move into grief and to feel and yet they're they're terrified and I Absolutely get it and I'm not pushing them. You need to feel this go ahead and let's feel this pushing them I can't push them into the you know, the feeling of it all but I can invite and I can invite and I can say this place you don't want to go and
00:25:51
Speaker
where there's pain and there's hurt that you have to name, it's terrifying, yes, understandably. That place you wanna go is the way forward. Well, and you only know that because you've been able to go there. Yes. It's different to tell someone it's that way. Absolutely. Or to say, I've been there and I can tell you the sign post.
00:26:14
Speaker
They'll be different, but they'll be similar enough. You'll recognize them. So for me, the part I wanted to get to is the transition for me is fascinating because I'm sort of, my word I chose for this year of 2024 is emergence. Like I've kind of got the one thing I know I am to be in the world of counseling and mental health type stuff. I'm emerging and going, this is me. And I'm more, I feel more connected to myself than I have been.
00:26:44
Speaker
And it's enabled me to start having more connections. I went through a season where I had lots of brothers. I had close Christian guy community. Went through a season of where that was sort of peeled and pared away. And I didn't have it and you can say, you know, some of it was I left them, some they left me. It's kind of complicated.
00:27:04
Speaker
But in this aloneness that resonated with what you were saying in the last episode of just the things being mowed down, like I resonate with, you know, I've never felt so alone.
00:27:20
Speaker
than I have in probably the last year. There's a song by Jason Gray that I love. And he says, you know, you say you meet the lonely and the broken. I've never been as low as I am right now. So I'm praying down here on my knees, Lord, if you don't move, no one else can make a way. You know, just that needing, I need God, I need you to show up. And he has, and he showed up and he started bringing me people and friends and connections. I'm still not where I want to be on that yet.
00:27:44
Speaker
But I know what I have to offer, and I've tasted... And you know what you want, it sounds like. Yes, I know what I want, and here's the agonizing part. What I've had to recognize is to get there, I've had to step back into more of the, I'll call it somewhat ordinary, but it's not ordinary, but the practice of law.
00:28:04
Speaker
for a season while I'm getting through school. I'm working with a law firm that I'm kind of in a consulting role, helping them sort of pivot to be more resolution oriented and to bring more trauma informed principles and care into this family law work they're doing and they're doing it with the Hispanic community of Charlotte. It's been such good work and hard. It is. That's been what's been fascinating is just how it's felt at first. I'm like, God, this is taking me backwards. Why am I having to do this?
00:28:34
Speaker
to go back sort of towards law when I know I want to be in the healing and helping arts, you know, area. And God's like, well, watch this because I'm basically, I'm, I'm working with these people, different families, all kinds of stories, all different places. And the commonality is, oh, there's trauma everywhere. There is hurt everywhere and they need someone to listen and to be present. And I'm finding,
00:29:02
Speaker
I'm really resonating with what Dan says of how the calling to be a healer, to be on the healing path, to bring God's goodness to the land of the living is not so much of what you do, it's how you do whatever you do. And I'm realizing, wait a minute, the me that I am now more in touch with my own heart, my own pain, more acquainted with grief, as Psalm 51 talks about, like Jesus was,
00:29:30
Speaker
The more real I show up, I'm doing really good work as a lawyer. I don't think I'm going to be doing it forever. I don't want to be doing it forever.
00:29:39
Speaker
but I'm different as I'm in the room. And I'm in the season of, yes, you know what you're going to be, but you're not gonna be there yet. And really, you don't even know what you're gonna be. But I know this path towards getting this degree and the formation that comes with it is worth it no matter what. Because I'm becoming a different person how I show up and it is from the hours of beating the wings and the cocoon.
00:30:05
Speaker
and the forging and the fire, you know? I think the song you were quoting earlier is called Becoming or I'm Becoming. That's the other song that I was going to mention. One is Lord Move. Yeah, my spiritual director just on the theme you were saying, she often says, God loves becoming. And I think it's he loves
00:30:29
Speaker
the changing and the growing and the stretching and the becoming more like him. Yes, and that's the other Jason Gray song that I have on Absolute Repeat. It's called Becoming and the opening lines are I'm miles from where I was but so far from where I want to be. And he talks about the wrestling and the being formed in loneliness and darkness. Yeah.
00:30:54
Speaker
and basically holding on to, yes, but I'm becoming who I am. That's not turning me into somebody new or different. He's actually bringing me to the core and essence of me and him in me, the goodness that he put in me to start with, connecting with that.
00:31:16
Speaker
But he says, in the bridge in that, he says, it's progress, not perfection, not arrival, it's direction. It's the living and the learning, not the finish line, but the journey. And that's been such a comfort and such a thing to hold on to when I'm like, but I'm not moving backwards. I'm spending less of my time on mental health and healing stuff these days for a season.
00:31:42
Speaker
so that I can do more, but then I'm bringing these things into play with everybody interact with. Yeah. And so it's this very weird place where I'm both exhausted and grateful.
00:31:55
Speaker
daunted but hopeful. And that's one of the points we wanted to make about the formation, the transformation, having to be okay with the already not yet in a new different way. And this slow work of God, as I said. Yes, and the nonlinear. It's not theoretical for me. And so I love being able to be an agent of
00:32:21
Speaker
hope and realness And I'm excited to see the ways that that will keep happening no matter where it takes me me too So thank you for this conversation Absolutely See you guys next time
00:32:37
Speaker
The Surviving Saturday podcast is brought to you by Nurture Counseling PLLC, a counseling teaching and training center based out of Charlotte, North Carolina. We help families flourish one story at a time. Nurture Counseling provides counseling, counseling intensive for couples, conflict resolution coaching, story work groups, seminars, workshops, and retreats to provide a safe and welcoming context for exploring the agonizing experiences of pain, brokenness, and evil that disrupt our lives.
00:33:04
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and that God often uses to nurture deeper trust and intimacy with Him and with each other. You can find us online at www.nurturecounseling.net