Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to Surviving Saturday, a podcast about holding on to hope in the midst of life's difficulties, disappointments, and dark seasons. Times like that remind us of the agony and despair the followers of Jesus felt on the Saturday of Easter weekend, in between the Friday on which he was crucified and the Sunday on which he rose from the dead.
Speaker: That someday forever changed the way that humans can relate to God. But what does it look like to be honest about the very real pain we experience in the in -between? To fervently cling to hope in the God who promised us his peace and his presence at times when he feels distant or even cruel. I'm Wendy Osborne, a licensed counselor in Charlotte, North Carolina. And I'm her husband, Chris, a marriage mediator, conflict resolution coach, and trauma -informed story work coach.
Speaker: Join us each episode for authentic conversations about how life not turning out as we'd expected has created the contextual soil for the growth of a tenacious hope in the resurrection and in a God who is still making all things new.
Speaker: Hey there, folks. Welcome back to another episode of the Surviving Saturday podcast. Winnie and I are excited to be with you. We're both here this time. And the topic that we were mulling over and thinking about and wanting to bring to you today is this idea of
Speaker: of transformation and transitions in particular. There's a whole idea in the Christian faith where we expect that we are being sanctified, that God is making us new. He's making us more like Jesus. That's a very real thing. It's something we've experienced and yet there are times
Speaker: It doesn't feel like that's what's happening. Are there times it feels like we can't see the fruit of transformation or the end product? All we know is we're going through some kind of transition, some kind of change that feels
Speaker: Well, that's what we're going to talk about. What does it feel like? I'm curious to know if people have had experiences where you decide. I always get a little thrown off to hear people say, I just decided I would do this instead and I would change my course and they just snap their fingers and they make it happen. Almost nothing that I've changed that's been of significance or meaningfulness has happened that way. Wendy, what are your thoughts on that as well as we launch into that topic?
Speaker: Well, my thoughts immediately go to my fairy garden mother, Aaron. Yes. She was my Christmas gift to myself.
Speaker: and she's helping me learn to garden. So her job is she goes around and of course I pay her to do this, but she will help you as much or as little as you want to help your garden grow. So a friend had built some raised beds in our backyard a few years ago. You gave me that for Mother's Day one year and all the
Speaker: Plantings had died, so she came in and filled them with fresh dirt and added new irrigation. And we have been choosing together what to plant. And so I, as I watch her work and harvest what is growing, it has made me think a lot about my own spiritual formation.
Speaker: Okay. And what are you seeing as sort of similarities or ways that your understanding of spiritual formation is being shaped by that? Well, I think the first thing that's been fun to see is, um, I told her that I wanted to grow asparagus. Okay. And I'm going to say the plural of asparagus is asparagi. Why not? I think it sounds better than asparagus is. Yep.
Speaker: And so she planted these things called crowns that look like a web of roots or almost like a spider. Yeah. And she put them under the soil.
Speaker: And all of a sudden within days, these shoots that look like what we would eat as asparagus popped up. So like recognizable asparagus already. It looks like asparagus. Like I took you out to see it because she says, Resista, tell the plants how cute they are.
Speaker: Wait, specifically, that's how we're supposed to compliment them, that there's specific instructions. Just to kneel down and tell them how cute they are. So I took you out to... Are we worried about fueling appearance consciousness in them? No, because they're beautiful. Okay. All of them are. And they're not in American culture, I guess. Yeah, they're not Western. Okay. They're Western plants, but they don't have our proclivities. Okay. So these asparagus shot right up.
Speaker: Tall, like tall, they're noticeably out of the ground. Some are almost a foot tall. And it happened, I felt like if I had sat outside, I might have seen them grow. It was very fast. So she said, don't get too excited, we're gonna let them grow, and then in the fall, we're gonna chop them all down.
Speaker: Okay. That feels harsh. I know. And she said, and then they're going to grow again. And in the spring we will harvest them and you can cook them up and eat them. Okay. And so I did a little research to figure out why you have to do this.
Speaker: because they look like perfectly good asparagus. Yeah. Well, there's enough to even get like a little side dish for meal right now, a small side dish, but yes. And, um, apparently, um, asparagus are longterm plants. I think that's what they're called. And so to be sustainable, you have to let them grow for a couple of seasons before you eat them. If not, if you harvest too early, you'll kill the plant.
Speaker: Right. Well, and I did a little of the research with you. And when I read it said, actually, really you should wait two or three seasons. Like you might, might not even need them in a year, but you have to let, they have to have neighbors. They have to have more spare guy and they have to build this little community. But then once you do, they will produce like repeatedly, like right and left. I think you read like for 15 years. Yeah. Up to 20 or 30, actually in some cases. Yeah. So like,
Speaker: we could have great grandchildren eating off these asparagus that we planted, that Aaron planted. So I thought about that with my own spiritual formation and how I've gotten to where I feel like I am with Jesus on this day. And I think for a long time, I was like this initial harvest of asparagus plants.
Speaker: And I shot up pretty quickly. Looked pretty green. Like I burst through the soil and I did a lot of things to study and to learn and put myself under a lot of really strong teachers.
Speaker: stepped into leadership too, I'd say, in some forms. Yeah, probably earlier on than I should have, really, kind of like these baby plants. But I really looked the part, and I think I was convinced. I would have thought, if I were one of these asparagus, that I was ready to be eaten. I was ready to pour myself out.
Speaker: Um, but the underground network of my soul, I would say was not actually fully formed. Okay. And, and what makes you say like, what would be, how would we know this or how do you know this now? Well, I think I only know it in looking back that, um, there were places where, um, I was accepting human
Speaker: human's affirmation of how my faith looked to them as an indication of maybe God was pleased with me. Maybe he finally liked me.
Speaker: Say what you mean by finally now. That's it. That seems like an important word to have in there Yeah, so I think from the time I was a little girl and I've spoken a little bit on here about this before I think But I was so desperate to please Jesus like I was desperate to please the adults in my life Yeah, and I wanted so badly to be good and I
Speaker: really deeply internalize that there were rules and there were ways of being that would make him either pleased with me or displeased with me. And it felt like that was always kind of hanging in the balance. Like he might be either one. Like I feel the knot in my stomach, even as I say it out loud, kind of like my breath gets taken away. And so then I found my place in Christian community.
Speaker: and people thought I was wise and they saw my kindness and my willingness to support people who were hurting. And so as I experienced their
Speaker: accolades maybe, I took it as God was pleased with me. But then what happened is when they were not pleased with me, so maybe I had to disconnect with a friend, or maybe we began to veer somewhere on an element of theology. And this is part of my Enneagram forness too, with Shane leading the show.
Speaker: but I suddenly felt rejection worthy. I suddenly felt that neither the person nor God was pleased with me any longer and therefore I must just be wholesale displeasing. Okay, and for listeners who may not be as familiar briefly, what's an Enneagram for? What's that category specifically?
Speaker: So a four is one of the heart types. I'm not an expert on this, but we're driven by shame.
Speaker: by big feelings, by being desperate for emotional connection with other people. And always presuming that we are not wanted. That we're deficient is probably a better way to say it. So how's that lead afford to show up then? What's the outward manifestation of it? Well, I mean, I can either withdraw
Speaker: because I'm so afraid of the rejection that I'm sure will come. Or I can show up in a way that sets myself apart because fours
Speaker: We believe that we're special. Now, generally that's, we believe that we are specially and uniquely flawed in a way that would, um, cost us connection. Okay. But I think there are times that my defiance of boxes can show up as a, we'll take that you can't pin me down.
Speaker: Yeah, so there's an independent spirit that comes from it, but some of it is rooted in. And it can be holy or very unholy. Yeah, and what you're saying, and that's, as I understand it, I don't know less than you, but with all the Enneagram, there's upside, there's downside, there's... There's growth edges and places where naturally strong or limited, yeah.
Speaker: So as a person with a sort of independent street, but some of it born out of insecurity, what was it like to come into a community and feel welcomed and valued, but then to have it not? The first part of the equation warmed my heart. It made me feel as if our finally home
Speaker: as if I finally had value, but I was very aware inside that the value felt precarious. And so what if people who loved me really got to know me? What if people who seemed to value what I brought
Speaker: had a disagreement with me or did not like the way I was doing things. And so I think I lived with a fear of exposure. Like some people will call it like an imposter syndrome, but like, oh, if you only really knew.
Speaker: Yeah. And I was living that way with God. So I think, you know, to go back to the garden metaphor, I was this fragile, early, they call these first plants of the asparagus, the spruce. Spruce. So I was these early forms of an asparagus and I wasn't fully formed yet in who I now know to be.
Speaker: under the gaze of Jesus. I was trying to please people that I knew loved Jesus. And I thought if they would love me back, then probably he would too.
Speaker: Okay. Um, I am just for the listeners sake, I'm resisting with every fiber of my being doing my. Archibald asparagus and junior asparagus voices from that details that just keeps coming to mind. I want to do the voices I'm not going to. Um, so what would you say then was, um,
Speaker: How did, in a nutshell, because we don't have a long time here, but how did transformation for you happen to, I mean, a place of where, like, as you use some of those words, I mean, people do describe you as wise. You're a safe and kind person to sit with. Tell, I guess, I would love to hear what, what do you feel is different? How do you feel you're rooted differently? How you show up differently? And then sort of how in a nutshell would you say that happened? What would you give credit for that?
Speaker: Well, I think that life kept taking these sharp turns and like these little asparagus, I just got mowed down and my wisdom and my kindness and my hope that maybe I was finally accepted.
Speaker: and had a place to belong, those sentiments were not strong enough to keep me rooted and to keep me grounded. So every time that I would fall face first into the dirt, which is what I imagine will happen to our little plants when we cut them, I wondered all over again about who I was and what Jesus had to say about me. So that was one thing.
Speaker: And then I realized that's not sustainable, kind of like this crop. Like I didn't have deep roots. I wanted deep roots. I longed for deep roots. And I think the only way that you get deep roots is you with, you endure storms and you realize that you keep falling over.
Speaker: and unless something changes, that will continue to be your plight. Oh, that's a good way to put it. And so I think God was gracious enough to grow these deeper roots and to teach me what that meant. And one of the places where it, I think, became very stark for me
Speaker: is I had a very painful engagement with a person that I deeply
Speaker: value. It was a long -term friendship and a person that I had walked a lot of life with. And we came down on two different sides of a situation and found ourselves at odds. And I was really undone.
Speaker: Okay. Um, and in that, um, you are undone relationally, but what did that do for your relationship with God or how was that formative in terms of your relationship with God? Well, it was formative because I think as I felt the disconnection with this person, I began to, um,
Speaker: to feel destabilized. And this is somebody that I had looked to for a long time as an encourager in my faith and as a mentor in my faith. And had been that, yeah. And so I began to think if I was viewing something differently
Speaker: then I must be the one in the wrong and I did not know what to do. And so I went back for a quick second to my old ways of believing that Jesus was now displeased because I had done something wrong and I was thinking something wrong and his grace would not extend to me in that. Okay. Um, and so,
Speaker: How did you come out of that encounter then in terms of you and Jesus? What was the you and Jesus dynamic of that on your side of it? Yeah. So I think Jesus reminded me in a lot of moments leading up to this painful conversation in the middle of it. And then after of all the steps, Jesus and I had walked together as this situation had unfolded.
Speaker: And he reminded me of the ways I had looked to him and begged for his presence, the ways that he had shown me his face in very palpable ways. The people that he had put in my presence to wipe tears,
Speaker: and to hold my hands as this very painful thing was unfolding in my life. And he reminded me that he had not left me and that he would not. And that at the end of the day, all I could do was look to him.
Speaker: And so I thought of the Psalms, those who look to him are radiant and their faces are not filled with shame. And I thought I'm falling back into this pit of shame and I don't want to go there. And I, I really felt his invitation. Will you just look at me? You're going to walk and it's going to feel like you're on water and you're going to sink any minute. But I want you to look at me.
Speaker: I have you and I'm going to be the ground beneath your feet and I'm going to be looking in your eyes and I am the eternal lover of your soul.
Speaker: Wow. I want to circle back later too. I love that you use that verse. I think it's Psalm 34 because it's one that's super meaningful to me as well. They look him in a radiant and their faces will never be ashamed. I love that. Talk about, so with that,
Speaker: having had that encounter, how does that and all that's happened to sort of form you, how does it change how you show up now when you are walking with hurting people and caring for them? What's different now from those young sprues, young sheep days? That is a great question. I would say,
Speaker: that the truth I know about Jesus, I now hold in the experiences of my body, of taking actual steps with Him, steps out of the pit, steps onto a rock, climbing out of the mud, withstanding, rejection, being fired,
Speaker: having unkind things said, not being sure if I was right or wrong about something. And so the theology has moved from being in my head and things that I could report and regurgitate.
Speaker: to a more visceral experience where there are often times at night that as I'm falling asleep, all I can whisper is, God, thank you so much that you are so sweetly here, that I feel the presence. And it's almost, it's so silly to say, but it's almost the anticipation of tomorrow is Christmas morning and all will be well. Like we will have such a joyful morning.
Speaker: And I feel that as I drift off to sleep, so many nights, and I had been desperate for so many years of my life to have anything close. It feels almost reminiscent of the word of Job at the end of the book of Job. My ears had heard of you, but now my eyes have seen you. Yes. Uh -huh. Yes.
Speaker: confidence rooted in Jesus and his direct approval and trusting he desires, he loves you. That changes how you show up for other people then because you're speaking of something that you've tasted and seen and experienced. And I think what I have tasted is the grace
Speaker: This whole thing being by faith alone. Yeah, and so I don't feel the need to Direct people in my room of what they need to do or what they must think or feel But I can be with them in the real places of where they are whether that's in a pit or on a mountaintop and I can sit with them as together we look for the real Jesus and
Speaker: Um, that will be the rescuer that will be the deliverer and look for him begging him that we will recognize it is him. And when we were talking about this earlier on a walk today, we were talking about kind of how you feel different and more solid. And, and I'm going to just, if I can share, just kind of me, my observation of that, like it is, it's a beautiful thing to observe you.
Speaker: standing like rooted, grounded. Like the presence that I've seen you bear with people is astounding. I mean, having known you, I knew you when you were a little spruce. You did. I was 13 with braces.
Speaker: I knew you were a little seedling then that's right. But the solidity and I've seen it most up close when we've gotten to do an intensive with a couple who's in a hard place in marriage where we're kind of in it together and just watching the poise and the
Speaker: the unflappableness that you engage with. People who you might have at one time found intimidating or not thought you had anything to offer, like you just, you're resting in, you know you have something to offer because it's so much bigger than you, it's Jesus flowing through you. It's grace.
Speaker: that literally you embody. It is not just an abstract concept. You're like walking it. It's like palpable and it's beautiful. And I appreciate getting to see and belong for it. Thank you. Because you've been there for the whole ride.
Speaker: Yes. So far, it's not over. Right. Well, and I'm thinking to your asparagus metaphor, there is sort of the cutting down, but it feels also like what's raised up around you. Speak for a minute to how has God built sort of the healthy, established, sustainable community of asparagus people or whatever.
Speaker: Yeah, well, I think, you know, somewhere along the way, in my own healing, I realized I was seeking out a lot of mother figures, that my heart was really hungry for nurture. Yeah. And I was seeking out counselors and acupuncturists
Speaker: and yoga instructors and massage therapists and nutritionists and realizing, you know, only one is exactly my age. The others are quite a bit younger. And I realized I was collecting a community of mothers that would come around me and tend to the parts of me that were hurting and lonely and afraid.
Speaker: And then in the more recent season, I've begun to surround myself with, definitely they are friends, but they are people who spur me on.
Speaker: One is a spiritual director to me. She's also like a mother. There are others who can hold so many of the places that I walk in life and what suffering has looked like for me and not be threatened by it. Yes.
Speaker: There are women who can laugh with me, belly laugh with me, and then also share their hearts and the deep scary places they're walking. Yeah.
Speaker: I've begun to collect friends who want to pour their goodness into the world in the form of creative projects. Yeah. Whether that's writing, or spiritual directing, or teaching yoga combined with Lectio Divina, or offering days of prayer, guided prayer.
Speaker: and visual journaling, but I am a bit overwhelmed at the people that God has so gently put in my path in the last just couple of years in places that felt really barren and I felt a lot of aloneness.
Speaker: And a common denominator in the people you described, and I know I've gotten to encounter some of them is their rootedness. Absolutely. And that was on my mental checklist when I was choosing people that I always say is these are groups of women whose hearts I trust.
Speaker: and whose authentic walks with Jesus I deeply respect. Yes. That I would recommend their company to anyone.
Speaker: Yes, because you've experienced how they hold you, how they just are present with you. And how they hold each other and how they hold themselves in the presence of their own pain and how they continue to walk with Jesus, even in the times when it doesn't really make human sense, but they keep moving forward. Yes. They stay on the journey.
Speaker: And so kind of as we're nearing the end of our time, kind of a theme of, of what we're talking about here is transformation and growth into maturity and kind of how it happens. And I love your metaphor that you've chosen. I've learned things even, even.
Speaker: As we're sitting here talking, I appreciate it. In the next episode, we're going to shift the focus, and I'm going to talk about transitioning and being formed, being changed, and what that looks like. I feel like I'm more still in the middle of a journey of that sort that you're talking about.
Speaker: Yeah, I'm not done. No, and we're never done, which is a wonderful thing. I love the harvest and replanting and all that of plant growth. But for me, I guess I have a little, not jealousy, but I admire the solidity that you're walking with, the depth of love and compassion and care that you bring when you come. And I wanted to get more of that.
Speaker: and be more like that. I think it's been inspiring and I'm sort of in a it's a weird transitional phase of I can see it I want it and I can't be there yet and so we'll talk about sort of the more when you're in the middle of the transition when you're really still being sort of pummeled and formed and kind of what that can look and feel like when we come back next time. Sounds good. I look forward to it. See you guys.
Speaker: The Surviving Saturday podcast is brought to you by Nurture Counseling PLLC, a counseling teaching and training center based out of Charlotte, North Carolina. We help families flourish one story at a time. Nurture Counseling provides counseling, counseling intensive for couples, conflict resolution coaching, story work groups, seminars, workshops, and retreats to provide a safe and welcoming context for exploring the agonizing experiences of pain, brokenness, and evil that disrupt our lives.
Speaker: and that God often uses to nurture deeper trust and intimacy with Him and with each other. You can find us online at www .nurturecounseling .net
