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From the Head to the Heart to the Body-Fully Experiencing the Kindness of God (Pt. 2)
52 Plays1 month ago
If God does indeed offer us peace and comfort in the midst of heartbreak and seemingly insurmountable challenges, well then, this episode coming out on Election Day 2024 might be our timeliest ever. (Don't worry, folks, we're not explicitly talking politics.)
This week Wendy and Chris continue their conversation about the surprising moments and settings where God seems to make himself more known. Or, maybe, His levels of availability and knowability don't really change, but what does change is our level of awareness and receptivity to His presence?
What Wendy is learning about setting the stage for pursuing experiences of God's presence take the focus in Part 2. Chris does his best to ask questions as thoughtful and incisive as the ones she asks in the counseling room on the regular.
Give us a listen, and if you like it, give us a rating and tell a friend or two.
Also... hang with us thru season 2 for some very special guests... Can't say much now but we are super-excited....
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Theme
00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome to Surviving Saturday, a podcast about holding on to hope in the midst of life's difficulties, disappointments, and dark seasons. Times like that remind us of the agony and despair the followers of Jesus felt on the Saturday of Easter weekend, in between the Friday on which he was crucified and the Sunday on which he rose from the dead.
00:00:23
Speaker
That someday forever changed the way that humans can relate to God. But what does it look like to be honest about the very real pain we experience in the in-between? To fervently cling to hope in the God who promised us his peace and his presence at times when he feels distant or even cruel.
Meet the Hosts
00:00:40
Speaker
I'm Wendy Osborne, a licensed counselor in Charlotte, North Carolina. And I'm her husband, Chris, a marriage mediator, conflict resolution coach, and trauma-informed story work coach.
00:00:51
Speaker
Join us each episode for authentic conversations about how life not turning out as we'd expected has created the contextual soil for the growth of a tenacious hope in the resurrection and in a God who is still making all things new. Hey folks, welcome back to the Surviving Saturday podcast. I'm one of your hosts, Chris Osborne. I'm here with Wendy, the lovely and talented Wendy Osborne.
North Carolina Weather
00:01:18
Speaker
How are you today, Wendy?
00:01:21
Speaker
I am good today. Yep. Feels like fall. Yes. I'm very glad pumpkin spice latte earlier and it was divine. It feels like a a very much of a North Carolina fall where we were bundling up to go on a walk this morning and wearing long sleeves and long pants and then halfway through the walk had to change. It's like, okay, you shed a layer or two. The sun is out and it's like 80.
Understanding God's Kindness
00:01:45
Speaker
Kind of crazy. um But we are continuing a conversation that we you were having last episode about um where and how do we experience the kindness and the tenderness of God. And particularly are there challenges for that if
00:02:03
Speaker
We are people who have have recognized or acknowledged that we've had some trauma or challenges or difficulty in our in our backgrounds. Does that interact with or does that affect our ability to kind of experience the kindness and presence and goodness of God? And so Wendy was very kind to to listen to me and ask me some really thoughtful questions last time. And so I wanted us to have a chance to sort of turn the tables. And Wendy, for you to maybe share a little bit about where in recent times or informative times what's been ways that you are able to experience in an embodied way the kindness of God. In other words, where did where has the kindness of God become less of an abstract
00:02:46
Speaker
theological construct or idea you know you know and have heard and should have sent to, you where's that become more of a truth that you've experienced in your in your body and and and and you had the chance to be affected by, transformed by? Yeah, well this has been a lifelong struggle for me. Something that, since I was very little,
00:03:11
Speaker
I wanted to feel and I would say in my early fifties and finally becoming acquainted with the personal tenderness of Jesus toward me. What would you say have been kind of the formative moments or building blocks that have made that possible?
Childhood Reflections
00:03:30
Speaker
Well, I feel like I want to start with what the obstacles were okay and then maybe how those began to break down. I think when I was young, um I was a really good little girl. like I knew how to please the adults around me.
00:03:49
Speaker
ah really loved Jesus at a very early age. Um, and I don't know if I've told this story on here before, but when I was probably seven or eight, I started a missions organization called many missionaries, many as in miniature.
00:04:11
Speaker
Okay, so who was in this organization? My cousin Anita and I were the founders and the sole missionaries and the work was done in my grandmother's aluminum shed in her backyard. So between her house where we would be watching soap operas for about four hours a day and her field where a lot of crops were grown. So you go from days of our lives to go out to the mission field. Well, this was young and the rest is. Oh, young and the rest is, okay. As world turns, yeah, this was. Guiding light. Yes. At my house, I was days of our lives, but I was raised on, I don't know if this is CBS, but a whole other set. So she had a deep freezer in this shed.
00:05:00
Speaker
And I did most of the preaching, but we did have announcements. So yeah, I was pastoring the people very early. Okay, and who were the people exactly? The people were fictitious pigments of our imagination. Okay. But we were sure they were there. Did y'all set chairs or stuff? How'd you set the scene? I don't think we hauled any chairs out.
00:05:22
Speaker
But we had learned from her very tiny, very Southern, very Baptist church. how did Now, I don't know why we females were preaching, but other than that, we learned the announcements. We learned what to preach about.
00:05:41
Speaker
When you somehow knew you had to be up high, too. We did. Getting up on the washing machine. You're like, I will now bring the word down to you. On the deep freeze. Oh, OK. It's a little sturdier. Deep freeze. Oh, you're right. OK. A little sturdier lid.
00:05:56
Speaker
So I would preach my heart out and then I would say the Sinner's Prayer. I probably taught the people the Sinner's Prayer in that little aluminum shed missions organization. I'm partly laughing because I was just I'm rereading Flannery O'Connor's novel The Violent Bared Away and there's a scene where she has a child preacher who's like bringing the fire and bringing the pastor down. She was probably copying me, although I don't know if I was doing fire on Brimstone, but that was very familiar to me. And so then I would pray the sinner's prayer and I would beg that God would let me feel something in my body that meant that he really liked me, that he really loved me, that I was on good terms with him. And so I kept
00:06:44
Speaker
chasing after that.
Seeking Love and Acceptance
00:06:45
Speaker
I just tried to be so good, so obedient, so loving, so sweet. I wouldn't gossip. My high school best friend who ended up being one of the female stars in the series, Justified, the show opens with her murdering her abusive husband. yes She and I in high school in fact had a pact to keep each other from gossiping. Wait, you and Joelle had that? I did not realize that, okay. So then, you know, we went a little different course. She became a ah rifle bearing wife who killed her husband. She portrays that. Portrays that. Yeah, not doing that in real life.
00:07:24
Speaker
um And I just kept trying to be so good. And kind of like you were saying, get people to love me. And maybe if they loved me, if they thought I was wise, if they accepted me in their tables, then maybe God did. To copy sort of a a meme that's going around these days, I would say you you definitely adopted a very, very mindful, very demure. Very mindful and demure. um Yes, and it's funny because as an Enneagram 4, I really don't want to be that. No. But I thought so that that was my ticket.
00:07:55
Speaker
And ram for people who aren't familiar, what is an Enneagram for? What's that type? Oh, we're the individualists. We do not like your boxes. Don't put us in boxes. We break out of boxes. I mean, there's there's there's roots of that in getting up on the deep freeze. Yes! And being a female miner who's a pastor of a church in the deep freeze. Yes. On the deep freeze, not in the deep freeze. yeah yeah um All of our kids are fours, although one approach one is thinking maybe she's not a four, but there's a lot of four-ness in this family that we've created. So I was always looking for people that I thought God loved.
00:08:36
Speaker
to value me thinking maybe that would translate. okay And it just never quite did. So I got really good at collecting theology in my head. And a lot of that began to surround um just how broken and sinful I am, which is not untrue, but that served as another way that I was insulated from Jesus. So I had such a shame structure from experiences when I was young that I was really able to believe the part of the gospel that says you are broken and in desperate need of a savior. Right, you didn't need any convincing of that part. But the belief there was so strong and the weight was so heavy that I could not jump to the
00:09:22
Speaker
and he loves you so amazingly that he can't wait to save you. Okay. Like I would say that part, but that's the part that my body couldn't believe. Now, how would you compare it to what I was describing of kind of my inability to, um i like the the idea of being delighted, it was kind of foreign. Oh yeah, very. Okay. So the goodness and the sweetness and the being smart and being wise, those are
00:09:54
Speaker
me, but they were also strategically used to get people. And then hopefully God, I thought to actually delighted me. And so what would happen then if, if there were times it didn't work and it didn't produce that delight or you didn't feel I went straight into desperate despair to be redundant. Like I,
00:10:20
Speaker
I was then back in the talons of my shame that said, see, you're no one and you're never going to really be loved. You're never going to really be chosen or delighted in. And so in a sense, like where what I was sharing is I would sort of, I've sort of sought the stage, sought a place where, look at me, I'm delightful, I'm special.
00:10:47
Speaker
Where did you go when when you were feeling this desperate despair? What did that look like? Oh it it looked like hiding it looked like depression it looked like um not wanting to try anymore it looked like futility like i'm going home i'm not going to play this game if it's yeah because the game didn't work yeah like the stage delivered you in a way that the stage was actually dangerous for me yeah we we've discussed ways that
00:11:19
Speaker
our stories diverged there. yes yeah And so the stage at that point in life for me did not feel safe or life-giving. It was, in fact, it felt very dangerous. So you lead it to obstacles. Were there any other obstacles that you would name or does that capture it?
00:11:37
Speaker
um I think some of it was the part of the gospel that at least in my shame structure I felt was more focused on. I don't know if it really was but because of how I came to the table I heard more God's mad at you. Okay. and You can't even be in his presence. Okay.
00:11:59
Speaker
and that resonated, like I believed that. yeah um And I could not believe then the good news. Okay, so what what if anything changed or helped kind of deal with
Surrendering to God's Love
00:12:15
Speaker
some of those obstacles? Yeah, I would say it was beginning to interact with people who were so securely attached to Jesus that they could hold me in my shame and believe that he had a place for me at the table too. That there was in fact nothing I needed to do. So recently with some friends, I've been reading one of David Benner's books called Surrender to Love. And he's making the point in there that God's entire character is love. When we say God is love, it's not just like that's another name he goes by. This is his entire character. Essence.
00:12:54
Speaker
And so what does it mean to just exist in the stream that is him? That I don't have to tread water, I don't have to doggy paddle, I don't have to be a good swimmer, I don't have to climb up on a rock to save me, but what does it mean to surrender to who he is? And so I think when I have spent time around people who were so secure floating in that stream of his love,
00:13:23
Speaker
that they can welcome me with all of my fears and all of my doubts and all of my broken places and say none of that truly disqualifies you but they're not just telling me they are they are dealing with me in ways that they come close and they weep and they look in my eyes and they they acknowledge and lament the pain they They grieve what brought me to such a stronghold of shame. And I'm curious, like, what is it about these people embodying the loving kinds of Christ? How have you been able to trust it and not to go, here's somebody just trying to get me to think like they think or be the way they want me to be? Like, what's been the difference that's made it feel authentic and from God?
00:14:16
Speaker
Yeah, so a couple of things come to mind. One is they've been very open about being in a very similar place to where I was for so long. That they were desperate to know this authentic and tender love of Jesus toward them. The way David put Benner puts it is, saying yes to God's yes to you. Like if he has said yes to you,
00:14:40
Speaker
that he finds you delightful. Can you say yes to that yes? And so I think being with people that that are very open about life before they could accept his yes toward them and it makes me think of um the woman at the well and when Jesus meets with her there He's not even, he doesn't even tell her don't sin anymore. He introduces her to herself and then to this deep compassion. And what does she do? But she runs off so trusting in his love where at first she was terrified of him. She's like our first missionary. Well, there's so much of a, essentially you tie it back to that. She was a mini missionary in a way. She was, she was. She wasn't around my age, who knows? But the thing I'm thinking is,
00:15:35
Speaker
When you remember that conversation, there's so much dignity in it. He treats her as somebody who has knowledge about this mountain and how you know your forefathers used to work here and worship here. And and if you knew what who was asking you all this stuff, he is assuming a level of dignity that was just unheard of. yeah for that point in time when women aren't even able, you know, typically to read, speak, you know, teach, whatever. And he is saying, I know you operate one a on a higher level here. and And everybody else is seeing this, how many husbands have you have? Oh my gosh, and that's what the gospel is. And he's like, I see that. I'm not deluded.
00:16:16
Speaker
but I see the the the value. you're ah You're a thinker, you're a worshipper. Right. And I think that's what these women and men have done for me rather than leading with what is so broken in me that needs fixing. Yeah. They lead with a trust in Jesus that his essence, that his love is for me too. Yeah. And so that makes it much safer for me to then contend with the parts of me that need us transformation.
00:16:46
Speaker
Like, instead of they're not leading with the, oh, look at look at what you and your brokenness have done, look at your sinful strategies for making life work. Not saying that's not a true concept, but that's not where they're majoring in coming in. Like the people I mentioned in the last episode who have sort of called me out and said, really, I don't...
00:17:06
Speaker
I mean, I see what you're doing. It doesn't feel as authentic. and But their invitation was not, can you stop doing that because it's annoying? They're like, can can we have more of the real you? yeah I like the real you and I don't think all that bluster, all that clamoring for attention is the real you. And the same way the invitations to you is we want the real you to come out, not the you want to run hide and cower. We understand why you're going to do that, but we want you.
00:17:34
Speaker
What has that been like to let people sort of both experience meet you in your shame, but also speak to their their delight and their value of you?
00:17:48
Speaker
Well, I mean, it it's allowed my broken heart a chance to speak. And I think when my heart is broken, I can really be in the presence of Jesus. I'm not having to keep it together. And so i I've sort of traced the evolution of my tears. And apparently when I first came home from the hospital, I didn't cry at all. And my dad was very worried about me. He didn't cry at all. ah And so my dad called the doctor and they're like, it's okay, she'll be fine. And then apparently I cried a lot. And then I remember at some point very early in childhood, my tears dried up and they didn't come back again until it was in my mid thirties and something very big happened. And then I could only cry alone. And then I could cry a little bit with you.
00:18:44
Speaker
And then it evolved to the point where tears could leak out with some friends. but they they still had no sound. And so I remember being with two friends and we were talking over some of the heartbreak that had concretized into personal shame and self hate.
Expressing Emotional Pain
00:19:05
Speaker
And I was sitting on a couch with the two of them around me and I was crying and one of them said, I feel like we need a soundtrack.
00:19:15
Speaker
for your tears because your voice won't join them. And so she ripped paper as I sat there and cried so that we could both feel the sensation of an audibility to the broken heart.
00:19:30
Speaker
And so they wanted to stay with the tears rather than jump me quickly to the hope of Jesus and what he would do or had done. They were like, this is cry worthy. This is broken heart making.
00:19:46
Speaker
and they had the tenacity and tenderness to stay with you in the grief and limit. Yes, yes. What was that like? Oh, I don't know if I've had many more powerful experiences that demonstrated in a visceral way that I mattered. Ooh, ooh, I think you're keying on something there, especially that making of that safe space and that welcoming of whatever you brought it It sounds like it hit something deep in your soul by but by that message being you matter. they They didn't even wipe my tears because I think we all knew that they needed to run their course. Right.
00:20:31
Speaker
I, one of them noticed I was holding my own hand. I think it was sort of in a posture of do I really want to be crying like this? And one said, would it be all right if I hold your hand? oh And there was this tenderness of friends mothering me.
00:20:52
Speaker
and saying, it is okay that these things have broken your heart and we will sit, shove with you. We will sit here and let the weeping come and we will make it an event with sound.
00:21:08
Speaker
Yes. And that, that's sort of in Harkensback to, and I don't want to go back to my whole story, but in those recovery context, where somebody asked me, invited me to feel real feelings and to be really present. I know I felt that too, that really like, okay. And then it came and I felt, and I let stuff out and I said the, I vocalized fears that I don't think I ever had. Um,
00:21:34
Speaker
And there was something of the relief in that, because I think part of, for me at least, the reason things were damned up, the reason I wouldn't vocalize that, because there's a part of me that knew, well that may never end. If I poke at that, if I let that grief out,
00:21:51
Speaker
I may not get up again. Right. And I didn't know, but I was operating out of that fear. Can you relate to that? Was there any aspect of that where you knew there was a wealth of things, but it it felt overwhelming and and and people were safe or how did you compare? I think it felt overwhelming, but I think more my terror was I would be sent away and left to be alone with the pain.
00:22:14
Speaker
And so, um I mean, that's my avoiding attachment style that I began from an early age to deny even to myself that I had emotional needs yeah because no one was going to come. yeah And so I had to figure out how to deal with my own broken heart. And the best thing to do, it seemed to me, was to never admit it was really broken.
00:22:40
Speaker
Okay, okay. And find a way to keep moving. And maybe if I'm good enough, someone's acceptance or love for me or enjoyment of what I bring will suture my heart so that it doesn't fall apart. So what would you say then were the ingredients of that good care? Like how did you know you could trust those people with the the very precious gift of your tears, hard fought?
00:23:11
Speaker
So these were people that I had spent time with. These were not new relationships. Um, they were people that I trusted because they had been honest about where they had walked with self, with others and with God. Okay. So there was nothing that they were, um, wrapping up for me in a bow like fashion to tell me that they had arrived in any way. They were still very much on a journey and
00:23:49
Speaker
Because I had heard them talk, I also had gathered what they had done to wrestle with a very real, very embodied Jesus. okay And so when I sat with them this one day that I'm describing in particular, my body knew it could settle. okay And that was very um uncommon for my body.
00:24:16
Speaker
to settle? To settle. I might have looked settled on the outside, but it's just like when researchers have looked at kids who are experiencing something very traumatic and they look fine, but all the electrodes tell you their heart rate and their breathing are off the charts.
00:24:38
Speaker
But they appear contained. Yeah, I relate to that significantly. Yeah, I've carried myself as highly contained because I wasn't sure who would be coming. But I think what I have found is as my heart has broken and fallen apart, it has expanded.
00:24:59
Speaker
And so it's almost like there's elastic in it. It's not this fragile organ that can shatter and not really be put back together with all its pieces. yeah But it it's sutured in a way with the tenderness of God that allows it to love in very profound ways. Love people who are very different from me.
00:25:26
Speaker
But I was going to ask, so how does that, having had that experience yourself, how does that change the kind of experience you're providing when you're sitting with somebody in a counseling context, when you are, you know, Yeah, I mean, I i always tell clients, my job is to help lift the shame off of heavily burdened shoulders who have found the courage to walk into my office. And I feel like my war my personal war on behalf of self and others is to eradicate the shame that keeps us bound from ourselves and our own delight in who God has made us, from being able to trust that others love us and from being, and it keeps us insulated from the tender compassion of God.
00:26:21
Speaker
And do you hear in the people that you sit with, what obviously they mean in names or particularly, but are these themes that resonate with others? Are other people carrying these kind of burdens and binds? Oh, I had a friend tell me probably two decades ago, um shame is an epidemic and I very much believe that is true. Yeah. So yeah, I think I would say yes, I hope.
00:26:47
Speaker
I think that's that's part of what's appealing about this work you know for me as well because that experience of being freed from shame and and and somebody sitting and and not just, you know here's the gospel verse you need to remember and you know you have forgiveness, the embodiment, the ah really.
00:27:09
Speaker
i want to be The person who you can be okay to fall apart with I think that's transformative It has been for me and I find that as I'm studying counseling theories and all and counseling school I'm like Anything where they're talking about just kind of going into the head and tinkering with how you're thinking and your thoughts affect your actions stuff I'm like Okay, that probably works for some people that may be great But I think you're on to something with the the territory that evil has taken with shame It feels waiting. Well, and I think there there are very particular reasons that Jesus donned a body a human body and incarnational love that meets us body to body. Yes, I
00:27:57
Speaker
is there just aren't words for the healing agent of that. Well, and and I love too that neuroscience is basically catching up with that and is describing the way that mirror neurons work and the way that if we've been harmed in community, which many of us have, we are also healed in community. You're not healed by, I think, some different thoughts now. I know some new things about my trauma. We are actually experienced true healing. I think that the incarnational love may fruit out.
00:28:27
Speaker
in different thoughts, but I think it it comes first in the body. it's yeah Yeah, the root is that body experience. And look, I mean, the story that we talked about last time of God being a seamstress to Adam and Eve, yeah he tended first to their bodies. yeah And I think that's really significant.
00:28:50
Speaker
Well, and as as um I feel like I'm both through the chosen way, which we talk about often in reading the gospel of Matthew with some friends and in kind of a like church context, I'm really paying attention to the physicality of Jesus. And like, I've sort of just sort of, oh, the incarnation, God became, you know, God put skin on blah, blah, blah. I'm like, sit and wrap your brain around that.
00:29:14
Speaker
the containment of omnience omniscience and impottence omnipotence and everything into a carnal body that ate, that hungered, that that thirsted, that sweat blood. yeah is It's easy to we hear it so much to sort of, oh yeah, that was god that was really lovely. like No, no, that was there was a lot in that. And it was very, um you and I were talking about this recently too. We sort of talk about God's holiness in heaven like God can't be around sin and and we can't have any sin in heaven at all which I don't get into a theological side topic on that but but boy isn't that that's not the concept going on when when God comes to earth in human form right and He hangs out next with the sinners yeah the religious well and chooses sinners who who become this band of you know the apostles which again the chosen just depicts better than anything like yeah They weren't done. They weren't formed. Like, I have found these pious people. Let me bring them along and make them into a movement. It was the opposite. It was like, isn't this great? And like, I remember one of the disciples comes to me at one point and goes, am I too much of a problem because of my lameness or my this or of that? And Jesus is like, are you kidding? Do you see the anger I have to deal it with with this other one and this one and the righteousness of Peter? And like, look, y'all are all
00:30:36
Speaker
uh-huh raw material yeah in the mix um but we're doing something this is the team you know um that sort of uh a theme running through everything you're talking about i think it's that welcoming and that sort of like really people being willing to be with you in your pain i would say that is that's that is a key to radical transformation because i believe hope the hope of redemption begins in the dark It begins in the darkness over the cross. It begins in the darkness of the tomb. It begins in the dark of a seed germinating six to eight inches under the ground. Yes. Okay. And so I think that hope comes after the grief.
Pain as a Path to Healing
00:31:23
Speaker
yeah After the grief of what has been broken and they' destroyed. Yes and I remember in talking about grief and we'll kind of have a thought or two to end on because we're getting near the end of episode but remember dear friend sharing with us once and a simple sentence but it's very transformative. um Your pain itself is not the enemy.
00:31:44
Speaker
to avoid. The fear of the pain is what will keep you frozen and running away and not receiving care. But if you can work through that fear, if you actually let yourself, and if I know that's been part of my journey too, to actually let myself feel pain and feel pains that are locked away that I didn't know about, like you're talking about the tears that came when you're sitting with those people on the couch.
00:32:06
Speaker
when you experience it and then you go, I didn't die. Or in my case, it was, and nobody left me in your case. In my case, it was, I did express some of that and it didn't take me out forever. I can't, I think I was desperately desperate to not look depressed or anxious or fall apart in any way. yeah And so I feared if I let that those feelings out, I would go there, I'd be stuck. But when you experience it and you taste it and somebody walks with you and you kind of come out, you're like, that that wasn't as bad as I thought. And you grow stronger even though that's what you can handle. Yeah. um So as we close, I wanna plug,
00:32:50
Speaker
something that doesn't have a lot of
Upcoming Women's Gathering
00:32:51
Speaker
details yet. okay But um on this idea of God tending to bodies, the love of Jesus being one of incarnation, um this idea of hope coming from dark, um I am gonna offer in December a very small get together um for women here at our house.
00:33:17
Speaker
um On this idea of what do we do with the ache of unmet hope? Particularly as we head into the darkness of winter and we're waiting on light I mean, you know, it will soon be getting dark at 5 30 and be dark until well after you and I are awake yeah and I We will be also entering the season of Christmas, which is supposed to be not just the end of ah a waiting, but also a joy filled festive time. And it can be very hard to sit in the tension of the two.
00:33:53
Speaker
And so I plan to have some experiential activities that will bring our bodies into this space of what's it like to wait, what's it like to long for hope, and to wonder when we will see God's goodness in the land of living. And so I have clients who are wrestling with All kinds of pain and there's so much pain in the world right now in the United States and abroad like it's hard to even read the news. And so I just want to gather women together and acknowledge what it's like to lament and to hope.
00:34:36
Speaker
So I don't know the date, I don't know the cost, it'll be very small. Stay tuned. But I'm just sitting here smiling, honey, thinking about the real audience. The real, you know, you started with the imaginary audience for the mini missionary club. Oh yes, maybe those, maybe the people from the mini missionary days will be here. So sign up fast or they could all take the spots. But no, it's in all seriousness, you're talking, you're preaching from the top of the freezer.
00:35:04
Speaker
um And you were so young and and I just love the hope and the grit and determination that but but what a beautiful Transformation in that you a lot of your your healing work and where you are bringing goodness to people is in spaces of dark and spaces of quiet and It's one-on-one or it's one on a little group like this, but I love that you I just have this sense of God seeing like, yes, all those seeds, those sparks. And I got more even for you than that. You get a real audience and you get a better message. And I don't have a deep freeze. So I'm not going to be standing on that. That's why we never have been able to buy one of those. Okay. Thanks for joining us and we'll see you next time.
00:35:46
Speaker
The Surviving Saturday podcast is brought to you by Nurture Counseling PLLC, a counseling teaching and training center based out of Charlotte, North Carolina. We help families flourish one story at a time. Nurture Counseling provides counseling, counseling intensive for couples, conflict resolution coaching, story work groups, seminars, workshops, and retreats to provide a safe and welcoming context for exploring the agonizing experiences of pain, brokenness, and evil that disrupt our lives.
00:36:14
Speaker
and that God often uses to nurture deeper trust and intimacy with Him and with each other. You can find us online at www.nurturecounseling.net