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S4 E29: Trump's invasion of Venezuela and its international impact
34 Plays11 days ago
Today, we are joined by Daniel to discuss Trump's recent abduction of Nicolas Maduro, and the future of Greenland and Latin America.
N.B Co-host John incorrectly refers to Iran, in these instances he is meaning to refer to Iraq.
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Transcript
Introduction and Focus on Venezuela
00:00:00
John Gartside
Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Debatable Discussions podcast. Today you join us for another exciting episode with a special guest, but also a recurring guest on the podcast.
00:00:14
Dejan
Yeah. Happy New Year, everyone. Good to see you again. And today we are joined by Daniel, again, a good friend. We've spoken previously foreign policy issues such as the Israeli sort of buffer zone in Syria, Bashar al-Assad for many more things, including British politics. But now today we set our sights on Venezuela and for the latest developments that have happened as a result of the US invasion and capture of Nicolas Maduro and his wife.
00:00:48
Dejan
Daniel, good to see you.
00:00:49
Daniel
Thank for having me, Dan and John.
00:00:53
John Gartside
So to kick it off, Daniel, it's been fairly hard to miss it on the news.
00:00:56
Daniel
Yes.
00:00:58
John Gartside
It sort dominated social media and the traditional media, and that Trump's invasion of Venezuela captaining Nicolas Maduro.
00:01:05
John Gartside
So for our listeners, can you perhaps explain what has gone on in the last few days?
Nicolas Maduro's Political History and Trump's Response
00:01:11
Daniel
Of course. So think the first thing to mention is who is Nicolas Maduro? So he was the communist dictator of Venezuela for the last 13 years, and he'd been involved in all kinds of human rights abuses.
00:01:23
Daniel
That being said, Trump's basically levied these accusations that Maduro was this narco-terrorist and involved in sending these narco-boats and drugs to the United States.
00:01:34
Daniel
So his response in recent months has been to build up US military forces in the Caribbean. And now that's ultimately culminated a few days ago with the US Delta Force, which is the army's special forces.
00:01:47
Daniel
They went in around 2 a.m. to Maduro's palace and they essentially literally abducted him from his home, killing a number of his guards in truly an extraordinary...
00:01:59
Daniel
operation and they've taken him back to the united states to be tried in a new york court so it's all quite extraordinary to honest john yeah exactly
00:02:06
Dejan
this afternoon.
00:02:10
Dejan
Also I just wanted to add Nicolas Maduro started out sort of political career when he was in high school.
00:02:10
John Gartside
you described it.
00:02:18
Dejan
He was the president of his sort of high school and then he became a bus driver. because he didn't finish high school, he became a bus driver and then a trade unionist, a trade union leader like his father, got very close to Hugo Chavez and sort of became Hugo Chavez's sort of adopted son.
00:02:33
Daniel
Yeah.
00:02:36
Dejan
And in the process, he also married his current wife, which was Hugo Chavez's lawyer. So Maduro, who's also been taken, exactly.
00:02:42
Daniel
Who has also been taping.
00:02:45
John Gartside
Yes.
00:02:46
Daniel
Yeah.
00:02:46
Dejan
So Maduro's sort of platform of getting elected initially was this continuation of Hugo Chavez's policies and being a successor.
00:02:56
Daniel
Yes.
00:03:09
Dejan
Maduro and the official government claims they've narrowly won. So parallel counts by the opposition
US Intervention Challenges and Oil Speculation
00:03:16
Daniel
Now. Hmm.
00:03:16
Dejan
party claim a very big loss for him.
00:03:19
Dejan
So it's a very tough situation to deal with. We're not really sure... what he's doing, we're not sure what he's capable of. And I think that's partly the reason why Maduro has been so successful in keeping power and so successful in managing Venezuela for his own good, not for the good of anyone else, but for his own good, because so many people underestimated him in the last 15 years.
00:03:46
John Gartside
And I think it's an interesting idea that, Diane, of how Maduro has managed Venezuela, because now that Trump's removed Venezuela, I think it's been revealed of how it's almost formed Venezuela of these rival gangs, sectarian groups, different sects across society, effectively have made lots of money from drug trafficking.
00:03:48
Daniel
Yeah.
00:04:07
John Gartside
And that seems to be the real challenge for Trump if he wants to manage Venezuela. So perhaps, Daniel, again, what are these big challenges that Trump will face governing a country like Venezuela?
00:04:51
Daniel
would have to invade because all he's done is just sort of cut the head off the snake, if you like. But the entire kind of regime of Maduro, which has been built up over Chavez and Maduro, is still very much intact.
00:04:59
John Gartside
Thank
00:05:05
Daniel
And they're not just going to simply hand over without a fight. So I think... That's the first big challenge. How does Trump actually rule Venezuela? And then I suppose another one is, can he manage to get some kind of deal?
00:05:19
Daniel
I think that's possibly what he's trying to get a deal with the sort of acting president of Venezuela. And if he can make a deal with her to get some oil out of Venezuela, which is probably one of the real reasons why he's gone for this, then I think that's probably the best he can get.
00:05:36
John Gartside
Yeah, and I agree with you there. I think Trump trying to manage Venezuela and govern it would be disastrous. It would be a disaster for Venezuela. And a clear sort of comparison that you could form is when the US invaded Iran in 2003.
00:05:50
Daniel
Mute.
00:05:53
John Gartside
And their coalition provisional authority there was an absolute disaster. It actually made the situation there arguably worse. Yeah. It led to having to place more US troops in Iran because they just simply couldn't manage the situation there.
00:06:08
John Gartside
And Venezuela will be even harder. In Iran, they had 150,000 troops on the ground. They've got none in Venezuela at the moment, so they wouldn't be able to deal with all these issues of gang violence.
00:06:19
John Gartside
Also, Venezuela is actually a very large country.
00:06:20
Daniel
yeah
00:06:24
John Gartside
So following on from that Iran comparison, it's twice the size of Iran. It's actually even bigger than countries like Turkey. So it would be to govern it extremely difficult. More problematically for Trump as well, Trump's got no plan whatsoever when it comes to how to govern it.
00:06:40
John Gartside
I think it was a CNN reporter asked him yesterday, so how are you going to do it, Donald? How are you going to govern Venezuela? And he just waffled, as he usually does, said a few words.
00:06:51
John Gartside
And I think it became apparent that him and Marco Rubio have really not thought beyond what to do.
00:06:51
Daniel
you
00:06:59
John Gartside
It's like you said there, Daniel, you don't really know whether to take him seriously in many ways.
00:07:04
Dejan
Yeah, I think another important aspect of it is to say that Maduro has managed Venezuela very poorly as a nation.
00:07:13
Dejan
He's not been able to extract any of the natural resources, oil, gold, other precious minerals. He just hasn't been able to do it.
00:07:20
Daniel
yeah
00:07:21
Dejan
He also hasn't been able to manage his population a way that they are sort of growing, growing in wealth, growing in GDP, and overall, just very poor management of the whole country.
00:07:37
Dejan
But that is to say that Maduro and his regime have been very good in managing themselves and their own sort finances.
00:07:43
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:07:44
Dejan
So it's, I think it's quite likely that the acting president now, Maduro's vice president, would take a deal because, you know, the way it's worked with Maduro is you do what's best for yourself and hope it works. It could happen.
00:08:00
Dejan
We've seen statements that the sort opposition leader, the one that received the Nobel Prize, Maria Cachado, is not considered by Trump as fit to lead. It doesn't have the respect and authority or something like that.
00:08:10
Daniel
And. Hmm.
00:08:15
Dejan
Anyway, there's basically very little... sort of power, actually, I'd say, apart from Maduro's regime, Trump doesn't really seem interested in talking to anyone.
Winners and Losers in the Venezuela Situation
00:08:27
Dejan
So it will be interesting to see how he manages that situation.
00:08:28
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:08:31
Dejan
But want ask you, Daniel, as well, what are some of the winners and losers of the situation?
00:08:36
Daniel
Well, I mean, I guess the biggest loser on the face of it would be Maduro. He seems have taken completely, completely by surprise.
00:08:41
Dejan
Of course.
00:08:43
Daniel
I think he probably thought that the US would continue striking these narco boats as they had been doing and maybe ramping up pressure a little bit. But I don't think he really predicted, and I don't think anyone actually predicted, despite what they may now say, that an abduction of Nicolas Maduro was at all on the table.
00:09:00
Daniel
So I think Maduro is the biggest loser. Biggest winner... is potentially Trump, potentially Marco Rubio, Secretary of State, because they've sort masterminded this operation. And it certainly looks good for a lot of Trump's base.
00:09:15
Daniel
That being said, this may turn out to be a long drawn out foreign intervention, which won't play well with a lot of the America First people like Marjorie Taylor Greene, who's already said that she doesn't approve of it.
00:09:28
Daniel
And in that sense, I think Maybe this situation may not really have any winners at all in the very long term. You mentioned the opposition leader Machado.
00:09:37
Dejan
Yeah.
00:09:38
Daniel
I think she's finished as well, frankly. I don't think she's going to get anything out of it because I don't think... Number one, Trump's annoyed that she won the Nobel Peace Prize instead of him. So there's a personal reason why he disapproves of her. And then the second reason is, is that he knows that she wouldn't give him unlimited access to the oil reserves and gold reserves of Venezuela, which is the kind of commercial interest in taking Venezuela in the first place. I don't think it's a coincidence that he's gone after Venezuela when he could have, let's say, gone against Colombia, the president of which he has said is also a cocaine dealer.
00:10:16
Daniel
so why choose venezuela over colombia well i don't think it's a coincidence that you know they've got the largest untapped oil and gold reserves in the world so i'd say it's definitely reason
00:10:28
John Gartside
And I agree with that. This phrase has become very popular since Trump abducted Maduro, and that is oil imperialism.
00:10:35
Daniel
hmm
00:10:36
John Gartside
Trump has almost sort of reinvigorated this idea of neocolonialism by his abduction of Maduro because he's got this commercial interest. And so as I'm sure our listeners know, but Venezuela has the most amount of oil of any nation in the world. It's 303 billion barrels. So that's more than Saudi Arabia.
00:10:57
John Gartside
However, it's virtually, it's effectively this oil's just not actually really been accessed. It's not really been treated or extracted. There lacks the infrastructure to do it at the moment. So there's a real commercial gain that could be achieved, as you said there, Daniel, from accessing this Venezuelan oil, which would be incredibly lucrative for Trump. And I think that makes him in a way a winner.
00:11:22
John Gartside
There's a commercial aspect to Maduro. There's lots of countries around the world which have worrying dictators. You mentioned that Colombia. But at the end of the day, Venezuela will always...
00:11:36
John Gartside
always be interesting. And another point similar to that is that Venezuela has the opportunity to be extremely economically successful.
00:11:43
Dejan
Yeah.
00:11:44
John Gartside
And that is proven by Guyana, which is I think perhaps neighboring Venezuela, or it's definitely in that same part of Northeast South America.
00:11:44
Daniel
yeah
00:11:45
Dejan
Right. Right.
00:11:53
John Gartside
And Guyana is currently the fastest growing country in Latin America. And that's because they discovered a lot of oil there. And since then they've had extraordinary economic growth. And it seems to be proving very well for Ghana.
00:12:07
John Gartside
So I think, unfortunately, with Venezuela, its economic impact on the Venezuelan people may not be too large. However, Trump will be happy, I'm sure.
00:12:18
John Gartside
That's the one on the receiving end of all this money.
00:12:19
Daniel
Mm-hmm.
00:12:21
Dejan
Yeah, I think also just sort of canvas everything.
US Operations in Latin America and Global Ambitions
00:12:26
Dejan
think the biggest winner actually US oil, is Big Oil.
00:12:29
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:12:30
Dejan
They're going to make so much money out of this. one way or another. So I think, you know, but I actually don't think Trump is a winner at all. I think all that Trump is hearing is sort of international law violation, people putting pressure on him. We've seen Zelensky put pressure on him yesterday saying, oh, this is what you think of dictators, you know what to do next.
00:12:50
Daniel
Hmm.
00:12:50
Dejan
Sort of, he gets all this sort of pressure and the legal aspect of it.
00:12:55
Dejan
I think Marco Rubio for me is the biggest winner here because, know, He can have a claim of having sort of conducted, planned and executed this operation.
00:13:06
Dejan
He can also make this one of his points in his CV when he prepares for the next primary secretary state with a very successful mission. But also don't think Rubio's done.
00:13:17
Dejan
I don't think he's done. I think Cuba might be next.
00:13:22
Daniel
Yeah.
00:13:23
Daniel
Yeah.
00:13:23
Dejan
I think Colombia might be next, although, you know, Colombia doesn't have a dictator, but Trump seems to claim that Petros is a cocaine dealer.
00:13:33
Dejan
Maybe that's true, maybe it isn't. I don't know. find it hard to believe, but, you know, it is what it is. So, yeah, Rubio doesn't seem to be done. It seems like, to me, he's preparing his sort of CV to seem...
00:13:47
Dejan
to counterbalance what he lacked in the previous runs he made, which people just didn't think he was tough enough, didn't have this sort of killer instinct that Trump had. And now I think he's trying to prove people wrong.
00:13:59
Dejan
If he's got three successful operations and I were J.D. Vance, I would not like it because three successful operations for Marco Rubio, to me, equals him winning the Republican nomination.
00:14:05
Daniel
Yeah. Hmm.
00:14:12
John Gartside
Diane, you mentioned that idea of an international precedent, and I think there's one that Rubio wants even more, and that's Greenland. So Daniel, can you explain to us what is the situation with Greenland and Trump?
00:14:24
Daniel
Yeah, I mean, I suppose Greenland and Venezuela might seem fairly unrelated being in totally different parts of the world. But then again, they are actually quite similar because Venezuela and Greenland both have these untapped mineral resources. And Trump, being very commercially minded, wants to get this real estate that he calls it. And, you know, at first he proposed to purchase Greenland. And now he said, know, his inauguration address even, he said, you know, the United States will be taking Greenland.
00:14:54
Daniel
mean, that brings up a whole load of issues, namely that Greenland is a sort of protectorate of Denmark, which is part of NATO, which America is in turn meant to lead.
00:15:04
Daniel
So who will actually come to the aid of Greenland if the United States were to move in? It would be very easy. I mean, they've already got military bases in Greenland as is, supposedly for the defence of Greenland, but which now can be used as a base to take over the island.
00:15:19
Dejan
you
00:15:22
Daniel
So, but do I actually think, you know, this is a credible assertion from Trump? Probably not. I don't think he's going to just suddenly move in and take Greenland.
00:15:40
John Gartside
Thank you.
00:15:42
Daniel
This is idea of Trump 2.0, where he's just willing to basically do whatever he wants because he knows he's not up for re-election. So he doesn't really have many consequences.
00:15:52
Daniel
He's more or less shirked all of the judicial and legal proceedings that were against him. And more or less seems that he's untouchable, except with the one issue of the Epstein files, which he's now successfully distracted from.
00:16:05
Dejan
Yeah.
00:16:06
Daniel
the world from with his sort of foreign policy kind of bravado in Venezuela, probably in Greenland, maybe in Panama, which he's also expressed interest in. So I think with regard to Greenland, I think it's possible that Trump would move in there. But I just I don't really see it as being that likely, to be honest.
00:16:29
Dejan
Yeah, I think I fully agree with you, Daniel.
00:16:30
John Gartside
I mean, please.
00:16:32
Dejan
I just, I think if we're being sort of, if you're looking at who actually runs these operations, it's not Trump, it's Marco Rubio. And I think Marco Rubio's main aim is Cuba for a personal reason.
00:16:45
Daniel
yeah
00:16:47
Dejan
It's Cuba and Latin America for a personal reason. I think that's going to be where the focus is. think Greenland doesn't help anyone, you know? We need to remember that Marco Rubio and Trump used to call each other names only couple of years ago.
00:17:02
Dejan
We need to forget this appearance that they are best friends and they are looking out for one another. They're both very selfish and only looking at their own self-interest.
00:17:12
Dejan
Marco Marco Rubio has no interest in getting people upset.
00:17:17
Dejan
internationally and having Europe and, you know, Europe and other parts of NATO get to the US and force an international scandal.
00:17:26
Dejan
He doesn't want that. What he wants, though, is to gain more support his base. And that is going into Cuba, that is going into Colombia, going into Panama, and sort of making the claim that he's cleaning these countries up, more so getting the vote of the Hispanics,
00:17:42
Dejan
so you know i just i just don't see greenland as a as a as a possibility john
00:17:46
Daniel
yeah.
00:17:48
John Gartside
I would slightly disagree.
Europe's Strategic Response to US Actions
00:17:49
John Gartside
I mean, I think firstly, it's all fairly astonishing that Trump wants to be sort of colonial power, doesn't he? He views the USA as this sort of imperial force, which is totally bizarre in any way.
00:17:55
Dejan
yeah
00:18:01
John Gartside
But I think Greenland's unlikely, and I think it would just have this awful international reaction. But I think in a way it could be more likely than some of the Latin American countries.
00:18:13
John Gartside
And that's because there's a big detachment from what Marco Rubio wants and perhaps what Trump wants. Trump has constantly gone on about Greenland for so long.
00:18:24
John Gartside
He's always had it as this sort of slightly bizarre ambition of his. And Greenland is extremely valuable. Falling on from what Daniel said in its commercial sense, it's got all these mineral resources. strategically as well. Trump's very bothered about China and Russia and Greenland with its access to the Arctic Circle would be as in that's why the US military base is there currently because it's strategically important. I think perhaps the part of this Greenland discussion, though, has been slightly invigorated by Katie Miller, who is the wife of Mr Trump's deputy chief of staff, Stephen Miller. And so on social media, she has posted a map of Greenland painted in the US flag with the caption soon underneath it.
00:19:14
John Gartside
I mean, I don't think this is likely. I think she's perhaps got a bit too caught up in all the drama about what's going on in Venezuela.
00:19:20
Dejan
Yeah.
00:19:21
John Gartside
But I think Trump will always go on about Greenland because at the end of the day, it's strategically useful.
00:19:29
John Gartside
And he seems to get slightly obsessed about things and about his international image.
00:19:37
Dejan
Yeah, I think, you know, that's...
00:19:40
Dejan
I just, I think, you know, I've just seen Trump sort of yesterday, yesterday evening for them. So this morning for us made a statement that we need Greenland for national security reasons.
00:19:49
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:19:54
Dejan
I don't think we will come to an invasion. I think, you know, think the sort of Europe is too smart to allow an invasion. And maybe what would happen is sort of Emmanuel Macron and Friedrich Merz and even Keir Starmer going to the sort leader of Greenland, the president Greenland, saying, look, you've got to give it up.
00:20:17
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:20:18
Daniel
Yeah.
00:20:18
Dejan
That might happen. don't see an invasion because the moment an invasion happens, Europe's got one sort of goal and that's not letting Russia in.
00:20:27
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:20:27
Dejan
That's the biggest threat. And the moment you've got another war in European soil, it's game over, especially if it's with America.
00:20:32
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:20:35
Dejan
If you've got war with Russia in the East and a war with America in the West, it's game over.
00:20:36
Daniel
Yeah.
00:20:42
Daniel
Interesting. Fine. Yeah.
00:20:48
John Gartside
Is Xi Jinping now, for example, going to want Taiwan even more?
00:20:52
Daniel
Well, think, to be honest with you, the precedent set now is basically that, you know, the strong eat the weak almost. It's sort of returning to 20th century kind of...
00:21:04
Daniel
even earlier century kind of geopolitics and think it shows that america now is more or less a rogue state to be honest in that its actions can no longer be predicted based on the previously kind of accepted rules-based order idea that america will be kind the policeman of the world rather in fact america will be looking solely for its own interests and expanding its power You know, literally just by seizing oil fields just because it wants to without any real attempt to give any kind of justification for that.
00:21:13
Dejan
yeah
00:21:36
Daniel
And yes, think it does give permission for people like Xi Jinping to say, well, why don't I just take Taiwan? I mean, if if America is taking Venezuela, which has nothing to do with America, then surely I can take Taiwan because it's part of China.
00:21:49
Daniel
Similarly, can America realistically criticise Putin for invading Ukraine when he's just asserted dominance over Venezuela?
00:21:58
Daniel
These two things are both just... I mean, that's the precedent set, basically, is that there's not much difference between these three strongmen anymore. And I think that's what Europe's got to realise, is that with America, they're not dealing with Joe or even a George Bush.
00:22:15
Daniel
who can be predicted to work with Europe. Trump hates Europe. He's made that perfectly clear. You know, he says that Europe is full of degenerates and is kind of collapsing in on itself.
00:22:26
Daniel
And I think, to be perfectly honest, I think he kind of admires Putin's strength or appearance of strength.
00:22:27
John Gartside
Thank you.
00:22:32
Daniel
And he hopes to replicate that himself by building his own kind of almost... empire of influence in the americas which many of americans have sort thought was their own backyard and i think trump wants to build that up and that i think that's what he wants to be his legacy by america first i think what in reality he means is not kind of isolationism but sort of rebuilding this american kind of almost empire in a way in the americas And as Dayan said, Marco Rubio will use it to his benefit.
00:23:04
Daniel
J.D. Vance has more or less been silent on this operation. And I think that will give Marco Rubio a very nice head start in the primary. Unless, of course, this all goes pear-shaped for the United States and this all just fizzles out and America doesn't take Venezuela.
00:23:14
John Gartside
Yeah. Yeah.
00:23:20
Daniel
So we'll have to see.
00:23:21
Dejan
Which is why JD might be keeping silent.
00:23:24
Daniel
Exactly. If J.D.
00:23:25
Dejan
Honestly.
00:23:25
Daniel
is speaking in the long term, he might be thinking this is going to be a disaster. And he could very well be right, because, of course, how are US oil companies actually going to manage these oil fields when they've got communist guerrillas bombing the shipments and the trucks, you know, in the jungle?
00:23:42
Daniel
It's just not going to work, is it, realistically?
00:23:45
Dejan
think
00:23:46
John Gartside
It's ungovernable in a way for Trump, yeah.
00:23:47
Daniel
Totally, yeah.
00:23:50
Dejan
Yeah, and also I think, you know, looking at what Europe's doing, I've said this before and sort of a couple of people were upset, but I think to me it's really clear that the leader of Europe at the moment is Emmanuel Macron. I don't think this, you know, I don't think Keir Starmer, I don't think Friedrich Mellon, don't think anyone has had this sort of international presence that Emmanuel Macron has had, especially when it comes to Putin and Zelensky and managing the sort of Russia-Ukraine conflict.
00:24:08
Daniel
Yeah.
00:24:16
Dejan
And France has been sending very mixed messages. So Emmanuel Macron sent a very vague message sort of saying that the people of Venezuela are now finally free.
00:24:29
Dejan
whilst another top government official sort of deemed the invasion as illegal under international law.
00:24:34
Dejan
So it's very clear that they're trying to play both sides, they're trying to keep Trump happy, and they're trying to sort of not lose the goal, which is keeping him not necessarily close, but not as a threat until they can deal with Putin and with the Russia-Ukraine conflict first.
00:24:57
Dejan
And it is very difficult because at this moment, Putin has got a carte blanche. He can do whatever he wants because no one can criticise him anymore.
00:25:03
Daniel
Yeah.
00:25:07
Daniel
Yeah.
00:25:07
John Gartside
Diane, discussing this idea of who the leader of Europe is, there could be one person not European, though, that is the leader, and that is Trump, potentially. Because at the end of the day,
00:25:18
Daniel
Hmm.
00:25:19
John Gartside
I mean, Macron may be sort of humming and ahhing about it, but I think if any other power did what Trump did, invaded a rival country and adopted the leader, there would be so much backlash.
00:25:31
John Gartside
But it's rather hesitant, isn't it, from all these European powers?
00:25:34
Daniel
Yeah.
00:25:35
John Gartside
And I think they grew this relationship in a way.
00:25:36
Dejan
Yeah, but I think
00:25:38
Daniel
Can you imagine Netanyahu
00:25:39
John Gartside
no, no.
00:25:45
Daniel
abducting the president of Egypt? That outcry would be just absolutely extraordinary. And that's another supposed ally of Europe. So I think Trump's just totally using his status as being the leader, the biggest leader, basically, with the most power, because Europe has chained itself to America now, in a sense.
00:25:58
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:26:06
Dejan
Yeah, I think it's not necessarily that Trump's the leader of Europe. I think Europe realises that without Trump, they've got a very tough battle on the Eastern Front.
00:26:16
Dejan
And without keeping Trump, they might find themselves having two battles, one in the East and one in the West. And, you know, we all know from history how having two battles, one in the East and one in the West, goes.
00:26:28
Daniel
Yeah.
00:26:28
Dejan
You know, you can be whoever you want and you're probably going to lose. And... It's, it's, they are playing this game, very strategic game, I think of, you know, someone from the government says, oh, well done, Trump.
00:26:43
Dejan
Someone else says, oh, this is illegal. So they keep appearances. It's very interesting how they're going to play the game in the next couple of days. Emmanuel Macron has sort restated as well that France is going to have a role in Venezuela and that they're going to bring democracy there.
00:26:55
John Gartside
Thank you.
00:26:57
Dejan
I mean... Are they? Probably not. But again, we need to keep in mind that we've got the far right everywhere in Europe knocking on our door.
00:27:07
Dejan
And even these presidents are trying to keep their own power and their own appearance for their own home constituents as well. not just an international game we're playing anymore.
00:27:15
Daniel
Thank you for having
00:27:18
John Gartside
And with that, I think we can conclude the episode. I hope you've enjoyed the episode. We've had some great analysis from Daniel, as per usual. And if you are listening, please do like, subscribe, comment, follow us, rate us five star and all the other things you can do to promote us.
00:27:33
John Gartside
So thank you for listening.
00:27:35
Dejan
Thank you and see you next week.