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S4 E31: An introduction to International Relations
61 Plays3 months ago
Today, John and Dejan are discussing International Relations, and in particular introducing the theories of realism, liberalism and constructivism. Go like, subscribe and comment for more episodes.
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Transcript
Introduction to International Relations Theories
00:00:01
John Gartside
Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Debatable Discussions podcast. Today you join us for another exciting episode, as in particular we are going to be discussing some of the main theories of international relations, perhaps a branch of academic field which is integral to our understanding of the world and to the mechanics of world in which we live.
00:00:27
Dejan
Yes, John, very sort of current topic, I might add one that carries a lot weight and importance, especially in today's world. So could you start by introducing everyone to a couple of the key theories and the key terms that we will discuss today?
00:00:43
John Gartside
Yeah, so I think perhaps even before we get into that, a definition for what international relations really is. This is something that me and Diane, we're not experts in, but we're very interested in.
00:00:54
John Gartside
And we've tried to familiarise ourselves with a few of the key theories. But international relations itself is this study of the interactions between foreign powers, effectively, whether that's NGOs, individual leaders or countries.
00:01:10
John Gartside
And it focuses on how their relationships work, whether that's maintaining law and order or their interactions. And there are three perhaps quite significant groups or concepts which we'll be tackling today. These are realism, liberalism and constructivism.
What is Realism in International Relations?
00:01:31
John Gartside
But first of all, Deyad, let's discuss realism, because I think this is one of the most interesting theories and particularly relevant in the world today. So realism sees international relations as this sort of anarchic struggle for power.
00:01:47
John Gartside
It views states as being self-interested and only acting internationally or regarding other countries in a way to maximise their own power to benefit themselves. So views states as the primary actors in this anarchic global system This idea of the inevitability of states hunting for power is an idea by John Maersheimer, a famous scholar at the University of Chicago, who articulated his theory of offensive realism, that we really are just in this anarchic world in which states only care power.
00:02:12
Dejan
Sorry.
00:02:22
John Gartside
power and they're only going to act for power. Similarly, there's been defensive realism, which a theory which states that states act for power to defend themselves, to survive, not to dominate. So there's many theories, but all revolve around this idea of a system in which states are vying for power.
00:02:44
John Gartside
What do you think about this, Diane? Perhaps a few examples would be, don't know, Trump today or the Cold War.
00:02:47
Dejan
Yeah. Yeah, I think, know, I subscribe to this, especially the world today. I mean, you look at Trump in Greenland.
00:02:57
Dejan
for honestly no reason.
00:03:01
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:03:01
Dejan
You know, he claims it's about self-defense, but honestly, it's probably about the minerals and the very precious materials found in Greenland. Same in Venezuela.
00:03:13
Dejan
Everyone, apart from Trump, seems to know that the abduction of Maduro is for oil. Iraq back in the day, again, there were no WMDs.
00:03:26
Dejan
You know, I think lot of countries are doing this as an offensive. Russia invading Ukraine, I think that's an offensive. Well, you know, they claim it's a defensive move and that they want to establish this buffer zone. But Most likely it is an offensive move. I think Benjamin Netanyahu, what he's doing in Palestine at the moment, he claimed it's defensive, but again, it could be argued it's offensive. But it's all this anarchic world. Benjamin Netanyahu's got a couple...
00:03:59
Dejan
ICC, ICJ warrants when no one seems to care. He's gone to New York, spoken at the UN and it's all fine. But because you can't do anything, Trump abducting a world leader again, no one can do anything. Everyone knows where Vladimir Putin is. Everyone knows he's in the Kremlin, but you can't really go in and arrest him.
00:04:17
John Gartside
Yeah, I agree. I think it's clear that we basically live in an anarchic world, despite, as you described there, all these international bodies, organisations, the UN, the ICJ, the ICC.
00:04:30
John Gartside
World leaders can do whatever they want and seemingly just not be punished for what they're doing. And it's fairly characteristic of the world in which we live, particularly with this idea of the decline of international governmental organisations.
00:04:38
Dejan
Yeah.
Liberalism and International Cooperation
00:04:45
John Gartside
To make it perhaps even more philosophical, Diane, this idea of realism, we can perhaps think about Morgenthau, Hans Morgenthau being a famous scholar of the theory who articulated classical realism.
00:05:01
John Gartside
In this theory of Morgenthau, he agreed with this idea of stakes vying for power. However, he viewed as a product of human nature, of us having a flawed human nature, which means that we're always even greedy way. Do you think that humans are inherently greedy?
00:05:18
John Gartside
We inherently want power and domination of other countries or resources?
00:05:25
Dejan
Well, don't know if you can say, you know, go as far as to say this is an inherent part of human nature, because there are people who, you know, willingly choose to be Buddhist monks or Christian monks, and they give up all their possessions and leave a very solitary and a very bare, one might say, life.
00:05:31
John Gartside
yeah. Oh
00:05:37
John Gartside
yeah.
00:05:51
Dejan
But I think the way our society works, that we are sort conditioned for greed, we are conditioned for competition. And even from a biological perspective, one could say we are pushed by this notion of competition for resources. So I think there's arguments for both. And it's a very tough question. What do you think, John?
00:06:12
John Gartside
Yeah, I think perhaps that idea which you said thereof, I think definitely it's not inherent, actually, as you said there. Obviously, some people don't want completely greed and power.
00:06:24
John Gartside
However, I think there's definitely correlation. power, even going back to the hunter-gatherer nature of humans. Humanity was wanting their own survival above anything else.
00:06:36
John Gartside
But then perhaps that's not inherent, as you said there, Diane. Perhaps that's simply just a condition
00:06:43
Dejan
Yeah. Yeah.
00:06:43
John Gartside
conditioning from our times in which we live. Nowadays we live in perhaps more materialistic society and different sorts of desiring power can be associated with that.
00:06:54
John Gartside
Similarly, I think that perhaps it's almost got a bit of a spiral effect. If one world leader like Trump, for example, is a particularly anarchic in the sense that he particularly wants power without consequences, Netanyahu as well,
00:07:11
John Gartside
should go back for. Go listen to after this one and do subscribe as well. But obviously we have world leaders like Trump who are setting this dangerous international precedent others like Putin or Xi Jinping because when one vies for power it almost conditions the world into wanting power more.
00:07:33
John Gartside
That, I think, segues quite nicely into the second theory, which we will discuss today, which is this theory of liberalism, which is all centred around cooperation.
00:07:44
John Gartside
And it argues that cooperation is possible and conflict is not an inevitable thing in international relations. States are just merely actors and when they come together through things like democracy or economic interdependence and international institutions notably, like the UN or the EU, it avoids conflict.
00:08:05
John Gartside
This is a theory which is supported by scholars such as Locke or Michael Doyle and it's very interesting because it sort of holds right at its centre intergovernmental institutions.
00:08:21
John Gartside
An argument to support it, Diane, before ask you of your opinions, would be like the UN, for example. The UN was founded after World War II, and it had this purpose of trying to avoid conflict. It's perhaps an idea which is rooted in liberalism.
00:08:37
John Gartside
However, its effectiveness is much up to debate. So, Diane, what do you think of liberalism?
00:08:43
Dejan
Yeah, I think it's...
00:08:45
Dejan
I mean, you know, you look at the European Union and one might say that it is an example of liberalism, I'd agree, I think. But I don't think liberalism happens on its own. I think you need this sort of threat of this anarchic system in order to get people together.
00:08:59
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:09:02
Dejan
So don't think Europe's ever been as united as it now. And I think partly that is to do with the fact that there is a very hostile American president towards Europe.
00:09:14
Dejan
And that means that people have to get together to be able to sort of match it. So it's liberalism, but in a realist and an anarchic sort of bigger system.
00:09:26
John Gartside
Yeah, I see you're saying there. And I think liberalism is really around this idea of shared interest. Another concept is complex interdependence, in which many channels of interaction, like with the UN, which fosters much interaction between democracies, adding to this other concept in liberalism of the democratic peace theory, and that these sort connections and shared interests avoids anarchy or states vying for power.
00:09:56
John Gartside
But I think liberalism in my eyes is the theory of international relations, which everyone wants. You want people to be sharing their interests, to be cooperating.
00:10:08
John Gartside
However, don't know if always is the reality, and that's the unfortunate thing.
00:10:08
Dejan
Yeah.
00:10:12
John Gartside
It seems really to come together prominence of liberalist theories or liberalist institutions in times of turmoil, one could say, such as after World War II with the UN.
00:10:24
John Gartside
at the moment perhaps of the UN with the EU being perhaps more united in the threat of Donald Trump. But then it's easy for states to undermine liberalism and I think that should be a criticism of it because if states are anarchic and vie for power, which they clearly are, they undermine the effectiveness of these For example, Donald Trump, he's part of the UN, but I don't think he really cares what it says.
00:10:54
John Gartside
Hence, he's tried to create this World Board of Peace, a rather sort interesting coalition of dictators who seem to think they're perhaps better than the UN.
00:11:00
Dejan
Yeah.
00:11:05
John Gartside
I highly doubt it. But perhaps liberalism, and I think this is its main criticism, and as I've sort of described, is just a bit too optimistic.
00:11:16
John Gartside
People are cooperative, but states want what's best for their citizens. And I think perhaps all too often those interests don't align.
Critiques and Examples of Liberalism's Shortcomings
00:11:25
John Gartside
Diane, could you perhaps touch on the Board of Peace?
00:11:28
John Gartside
I think this is a rather interesting topic. It's dominated the headlines.
00:11:32
Dejan
Yeah.
00:11:33
John Gartside
What does this say about Trump?
00:11:35
Dejan
I mean, I think it's a joke. You know, there are so many bodies that he refuses to subscribe to. So I think I just pulled out of WHO a couple of days ago and created this new joke of a body with apparently Russia's going to be there. mean, look.
00:11:56
Dejan
I think Trump is playing every single game he can. don't think he really cares about anyone else apart from himself, America included. I think it's weird. A lot of people have been making these comparisons that Trump wants to be more and more like Putin.
00:12:10
Dejan
And I'm beginning to give them the acknowledgement that they're right.
00:12:16
John Gartside
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the Board of Peace, I think to many who perhaps independent observers, there could be a similarity in their foreign policy and their attitude to foreign policy, simply because they are both aggressive people who favour foreign intervention.
00:12:34
John Gartside
So I think in terms of their foreign policy, there are definitely some similarities.
00:12:38
Dejan
Yeah.
00:12:38
John Gartside
But the Board of Peace, for our listeners who don't at the World Economic Forum this January 2026. And it's a group leaders of some countries, such as, as you mentioned there, Russia may be joining it.
00:12:54
John Gartside
Also Argentina, Kazakhstan, Jordan, Kosovo, Mongolia, Bulgaria, many other states. But them, to name a few, have signed up officially to the Board of Peace, with their principal aim at the moment being regarding Gaza.
00:13:11
John Gartside
However, it's just totally hypocritical. Trump is someone who's always showed no interest and a complete refusal really to be involved in international organisations. Perhaps refusal is too strong, but he's always been, it seems sort of keen on getting rid of NATO. He's not really cared about the World Health Organisation, not really at all about the United Nations as well.
00:13:36
John Gartside
So him creating his own supposed international organisation, I think, shows this hypocrisy. And perhaps it even relates back to this idea of realism and states vying for power.
Constructivism and Its Challenges
00:13:48
John Gartside
Because Trump's done this because he's at the head of it. It's because he can have more power within it. So I think it's rather interesting in that sense of the Board of Peace and that is it sort of Trump's own project in which he can control.
00:14:05
John Gartside
Our last theory of international relations, which we will quickly decanter, is constructivism. So constructivism is a theory which argues that international politics is socially constructed.
00:14:18
John Gartside
It's not fixed. Identities, interests, norms and values are all constructed ideas. They're not inherent. They're formed by states. behavior.
00:14:29
John Gartside
So it focuses really constructivism and constructivist.
00:14:29
Dejan
Thank you.
00:14:33
John Gartside
They focus on how meanings, identities and norms, social norms evolve. For example, I think Alexander Wendt, who's a famous scholar of the theory, says that anarchy is what states make of it.
00:14:48
John Gartside
It's this idea that international social norms and international values are constructed by the states who are within it. To give an example of it, perhaps, would be the global human rights regime. So human rights are not natural laws, they're just socially constructed norms, some would argue this, and that NGOs in the UN shape state behaviour, and that states also seek legitimacy and not just power.
00:15:16
John Gartside
So what do you think about this, Diane? Are states really responsible themselves for creating this set of norms or certain values and identities which perhaps characterise their interactions with one another?
00:15:32
Dejan
Yeah, I think this is perhaps the most abstract
00:15:36
John Gartside
Yes, yeah.
00:15:37
Dejan
theory of the three. And I think also, some degree, yes, you different states have different boundaries of what is permissible and what is not. I think if you look at Israel, know, and you ask Benjamin Netanyahu, is okay to carpet bomb Gaza? He'll say yes.
00:15:55
Dejan
If you ask most other world leaders, they will say So I think to some degree, yes, but again, I think this theory is so broad that it's very difficult to pinpoint a specific example, also just a specific way that it can be applied.
00:16:13
John Gartside
Yeah, I think the theory really is around this idea that theories like realism and liberalism are fixed theories in the sense that realism says the world is fixed in synarchic states, liberalism is that it's fixed in a state of cooperation, whereas constructivism views the world of international to developing norms and identities between states.
00:16:40
John Gartside
For example, constructivists would argue that states act based on who they think they are. It's their sense of identity which shapes interests.
00:16:50
John Gartside
So for example, it's this idea of social or role identity states and their perceived identity of how they should be within the international system, do they believe that they're at the pinnacle or particularly involved in a certain matter, that challenges how they are, that perhaps influences their foreign policy to a greater extent than them being in this constant pursuit of power.
00:17:19
John Gartside
Similarly, I think another idea which you said there, Diane, is this idea of norms.
00:17:23
Dejan
Yeah.
00:17:23
John Gartside
And theory argues that norms between international powers is constantly evolving and that this sets the standards or the basis of the interactions in international relations.
00:17:35
John Gartside
To use the example of Netanyahu Trump or Putin, they have perhaps quite violently disrupted the previous set of norms that existed in international relations, which one could say was arguably more peaceful.
00:17:49
John Gartside
And they've perhaps established this set of norms, which is almost just big leaders can do whatever they want.
00:17:59
John Gartside
Yeah, nonetheless, the main criticisms to the theory are, as you mentioned, is quite vague, it's quite abstract. And it's also, it's not sort of particularly empirical.
00:18:10
John Gartside
You can't really as well ascertain what the norms would be, whereas with realism, you can clearly say have acted in this manner and had these effects.
Conclusion and Listener Engagement
00:18:22
Dejan
Yeah, I definitely agree with you, John.
00:18:22
John Gartside
Okay.
00:18:24
Dejan
And I think as well, know, it's very difficult to pinpoint international relations to just one of these fears.
00:18:30
Dejan
I think it's always a mixture and it always changes and... depending on who's in power and so who the big players are. It's always a change and always a mix. But I think this takes us to the end of our episode.
00:18:42
Dejan
So if you do enjoy it, do give us a comment like a review and let us know if you'd like us to cover a specific topic next.
00:18:49
Dejan
We're always very keen to hear your ideas. Also do look back on previous episodes where we discuss topics similar to this and see you next week.
00:18:59
John Gartside
Yes, see you then. Please do like, subscribe, comment and check us out wherever on social media. See then.
00:19:06
Dejan
See you then.