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S4 E36: A Review of Louis Theroux's Manosphere
74 Plays1 month ago
Today John and Dejan are discussing Louis Theroux's latest documentary on the Manosphere. Go like, subscribe/follow and comment for more episodes like this.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Manosphere and Toxic Masculinity
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Debatable Discussions podcast. Today you join us for another exciting episode as we delve into the Manosphere, a concept revealed by Louis Theroux's latest documentary, The Manosphere.
00:00:16
Speaker
And I think it's really raised huge debates in the UK about what the Manosphere is, um what toxic masculinity is, and this world, evolving world of the internet and social media.
00:00:30
Speaker
Yes, for those of you who don't know and haven't actually had chance to watch the new documentary on Netflix, it's basically Louis Theroux going and meeting all these influencers such as HS Tiki Toki.
00:00:46
Speaker
Ed Matthews, Sneak O, and Maron Gaines from Fresh and Fit, and Justin Waller, who's sort of this Andrew Tate acolyte. But basically, he goes out there and meets these guys and that sort of lets them talk and then lets them push on their own agenda.
00:01:07
Speaker
And what's quite disturbing, really, is the fact that There are some common threads along all of these people, you know? So all of them have the sort of absent father.
00:01:22
Speaker
They all made these crazy conspiracy theories about who runs the world. And they've also got these sort of backwards, slightly just strange views on women and men, men-women relationships.
Raising Awareness of Influencer Theories
00:01:39
Speaker
So yes, as you described there, Diane, Louis Theroux, he travels to Spain and America, ah and he meets up with influencers who are known as the manosphere. So this refers to a network of websites, forums, and influencers who try to share and promote these values of traditional masculinity.
00:02:00
Speaker
Rightly, Louis Theroux tries to wear raise awareness of these and also show how ridiculous their views are. And I think Louis Theroux is very convincing and it's very appropriate in how he shows just how wrong and how destructive the theories of these influencers are.
00:02:17
Speaker
So you mentioned there, Diane, a few names. And I think for any of our listeners who've watched it or who are to watch it, it's perhaps quite likely, like myself, that you've never actually heard of them. But it's astonishing the audiences that some of these people have, millions of followers, if not tens of millions in reality.
00:02:36
Speaker
um and they use these platforms to promote not only firstly actually sort of financial scam schemes like forex training and to buy or whatsoever ah but they also use their platforms to promote extremely harmful values as you said there diane they're extremely anti-semitic they advocate for views such as one-sided monogamy um and ah and or other sort of forms of misogyny.
00:03:05
Speaker
So I think Louis Theroux in his classic sort of, um I heard it referred to as sort of faux realist, slightly awkward style, he meets these people and challenges them.
00:03:16
Speaker
And I think he, in his own way of perhaps not even saying much to oppose them, but by his sort of questioning style, he really shows to the audience and to young people, me and Diane, we are his target audience, I suppose, with this documentary.
00:03:32
Speaker
but he exposes how ridiculous um these toxic masculine influences are.
Target Audience and Generational Awareness
00:03:39
Speaker
um However, astonishingly also how popular they are as well.
00:03:43
Speaker
So, Diane, what do you think of this idea of the toxic masculinity which Louis Theroux highlights? Yeah. I think the red pill is a term he uses for it all. Yeah, I think and first, i just i just um I'm not really sure if we're his target audience, I think.
00:04:01
Speaker
Oh, yeah. You know, you can make the argument that the target audience actually is people in our parents' generation, bit younger, who are sort of having young children now, and who actually aren't really in the online space as much as sort of yeah people our age are, and then they actually haven't heard about any of these people or about this thing, you know? yeah and Obviously within people our age, there's various... But i think all of us have heard of Andrew Tate and, yeah you know...
00:04:32
Speaker
even HS Tiki Toki, and then, you know, it's like we've heard about one or two of these people, but, you know, people in their 40s or 50s might not, and then it actually does bring that to a s sort of parental audience so we can then see actually what they children are potentially watching online.
Influencers and Conspiracy Theories
00:04:50
Speaker
But I think the sort of problem that I have um mainly... is the fact that like every single thing that they've done is so overanalyzed.
00:05:06
Speaker
Okay. like i think I think they've just gotten into this world where they actually don't know what's real and what's not anymore. And they've sort of made up all these theories about like who runs the world and the 5G towers we've heard through Matt Matthews and the vibrations or you know, these concepts about, like, men and women we've heard from the American guys mostly and sort of how they'd like to have multiple wives or, you know, like, they they've gotten into this world where actually they can't really tell reality from fiction anymore. And they've just sort of made up all these theories basically to sort of confirm their worldview almost.
00:05:46
Speaker
Yeah, I agree with you there totally. And I think Louis Theroux is very convincing and how he shows their views are just totally ridiculous. So one idea he almost disproves is this idea of the red pill, which these toxic masculine influencers endorse. um And this idea of the red pill is...
00:06:07
Speaker
It's sort of trying to help people. It's an idea from the film The Matrix, but it's about trying to help people see through the mainstream media who they view as spouting lies and to understand the truths about society and how it suppresses men So in reality, as you said there, it's just a load of made up nonsense, which they use to try and sort of confirm their misogynistic beliefs. yeah And some of their beliefs, I mean, are shocking. um And I think it ray it shows to the audience of the documentary, which has been, you know, the documentary has been the number one stream thing on Netflix for the last week or so, but it just shows how destructive these people are. So some quotes from H.S. Tiki-Toki,
00:06:50
Speaker
um is how he disowned his own son for being gay. Something that's just truly astonishing. yeah um I mean, he's you know extremely homophobic, extremely sexist in many other areas, it appears as well.
00:07:05
Speaker
um Another key idea, Diane, which I think we can sort of talk about is sort of expanding on this idea of the misogyny, which it raises um awareness of, which perhaps is particularly prominent amongst these American influencers.
00:07:20
Speaker
One-sided monogamy is a view which many support, something that still totally bewilders me. yeah um Can you explain what this is? Yeah, so... John said, I mean, you know, you should decompose the sort of word. It's one-sided. So only one person the relationship is monogamous. And in their case, that's always the sort of their girlfriend slash wife slash partner. So basically what they're saying is that women have to be monogamous.
00:07:50
Speaker
And here I quote, because when they love a man, they don't want to sleep around. End quote from the ginger guy. Justin Waller. And then he says, though, but, you know, I don't I don't know. I'm not bound by the same constraints and rules because don't know, I'm man or something.
00:08:10
Speaker
And there's that very sort of strange encounter where he sort of explains about how him and his wife do it together with the so third person. And it's just weird. I think, you know, they're quite aggressive. You he was just like, what about it? You know, it's like, it just does show fact that it's just, it's just the sort of strange world they live in. But the the strange aspect of it really is why those women decide to stay with them. And I think that that brings up deeper questions.
00:08:49
Speaker
So, yeah, as you said there, this is this seemingly just bizarre form of relationship that exists um amongst clearly fairly misogynistic people.
00:09:01
Speaker
um And you mentioned the influencer there who Louis Thru interviews, who endorses this one-sided monogamy. um But at its core, I think there are misogynistic values there, which the the influencer doesn't realise at all.
00:09:16
Speaker
um So, I mean... He's effectively viewing women as physical objects. I think he almost basically says that. ah Similarly, he views women as having sort of no intellectual or emotional value. He says shocking statements like women have not invented anything. Yeah. um Or words to that effect. And he views women as sort of as I said, just purely physical objects, which is just fairly astonishing. Yeah.
00:09:43
Speaker
and that men are some sort of superior being. um So it's at its heart of this um growing almost perhaps form of a relationship that exists in and that in America is just effectively misogyny.
00:09:58
Speaker
um Perhaps we're a society reverting back to more misogynistic values.
Political Ties and Influencer Impact
00:10:05
Speaker
Also, Diane, I think another interesting side of this is ah there's two more which we'll discuss. Firstly, the anti-Semitism, which they all seem to endorse. But also there's large political endorsements of Trump.
00:10:17
Speaker
I think many of them claim they're friends with Trump. yeah They've met him. it Can you expand on this? It's rather interesting how perhaps ingrained they are in US politics. Well, yeah, I think, you know, if if we go back and remember that Dana White speech at the end of the election, when he says, thank to that, and he starts naming streamers such as Aiden Ross, The Nelk Boys, Joe Rogan, you know, etc., etc. i think I think it does show the fact that they they reach an audience and
00:10:55
Speaker
they reach an audience with sort of more conservative views about the role of women and and and sort of the relationship between men and women and maybe sort disenfranchised part of society as well that sort of you know claims that society at the moment hates men and that in order for that not to happen they need to sort of get back to their strength and get back to sort of being at the middle ages um which think vast majority of people would with disagree with but It does show that that section of society is heavily attacked and they result in following influences like that sort of show them what they almost sort of that sort of fantasies. and it's like, oh, yeah, you know, you're the man. You don't need to, you know, apologize to anyone. and You don't need to do anything for anyone. you can just, you know, you're you're just that guy. And I think.
00:11:51
Speaker
It does, it does show that at the moment we are lacking as a society of male role models. I think, you know, I think it's really hard perhaps now find good role models, male and female for children because of the way society is at the moment. So just polarised and so of just crumbling almost.
00:12:19
Speaker
Yeah, I suppose. um but But I think the political angle is fascinating because I think Trump was at the fringe of this manosphere world, in particular with his campaigning for the 2024 election. yeah We saw Trump go on many podcasts and really use that podcast space. But it was a particular strand of podcasts he was going for. These ones which endorse more perhaps right-wing conservative views.
00:12:46
Speaker
ah People like Dana White, who perhaps endorse these sort of more traditional um conservative social values. So I think it's really interesting, um the political overlap of this, ah but also perhaps the effect these influences have had.
00:13:02
Speaker
um It's a relevant topic discussing these people just because of how large their followings are. Yeah. um Tens of millions of followers. And I think one could say that this awful manosphere perhaps even has a political influence in terms of elections.
00:13:19
Speaker
um how they mobilise their audiences who can vote ah to vote for, let's say, people like Trump could perhaps have a real effect. um So I think that's really interesting. I mean, likewise, I should say it probably does exist on the left as well. There's left-wing podcasters. But I think Theroux just shows how pertinent it is on the right wing. I think, yeah, think... Oh, yeah. yeah With that, i think I think, though, it's a bit...
00:13:46
Speaker
I think if you look at the US space, for example, which is sort of quite podcast heavy, this sort of like one podcast and two streamers that I can name off the top of my head. That's sort of a bit left-leaning. So it's Pod Save America as the main thing.
00:14:02
Speaker
then you've got streamers like Destiny. But, you know, again, they don't reach the same levels that sort of... Aiden Rothstars, Joe Rogan, and all of sort of these other more right-wing influencers that especially target children. I think with children, you know, teens, young adults, you know.
00:14:25
Speaker
I think, you Pod Save America, for example, is quite different to someone like the shake like Jake Paul and and Logan Paul. You know, I think they've got very different audiences.
00:14:37
Speaker
And Pod Save America goes to people who are already sort of Democrats because they know they're Democrats and not just because they used to follow Jake Paul when they were younger and now kept with that content, then getting sort of indoctrinated in this right wing conservative space.
00:14:56
Speaker
I think that's through a lot of these influencers, which is they've sort of started out something different. um You know, sort of gaming and and other stuff. And now they've sort of transformed into, oh let me run these crypto schemes and say these things about women. And my audience is largely the same.
00:15:19
Speaker
Yeah. You know? Yeah, and and another shocking angle of these influences was the anti-Semitism, um which I just thought and Theroux Simley showed was just
Anti-Semitic Theories and Societal Beliefs
00:15:30
Speaker
horrific. I mean, he he's he's got a style through, if you watch his documentaries, of questioning, but he doesn't usually respond back too much to challenge.
00:15:39
Speaker
But he felt the need to completely shut down ah one American influencer he interviews because of his anti-Semitism. They sort of endorse theories, these conspiracies about the Rothschilds ruling the world, about how there's satanic people at the top.
00:15:55
Speaker
um And they actually probably reflect um a surprising group of society in America and in the UK that actually believe in these just clearly ah ridiculous anti-Semitic conspiracy theories.
00:16:10
Speaker
um ah what do you have say about that diane that's our final point yeah yeah i think i think you know you said it really well it's um think it's sort that same theme of people being disenfranchised and feeling yeah sort of almost attacked right they're feeling attacked they didn't have a growing far a father growing up they didn't have you know, the best sort of education or the best possibilities because of money.
00:16:39
Speaker
And they're feeling they're feeling attacked. And who are they feeling attacked by? Well, we don't know, but there's this really prevalent theory in society that it's Jewish people, so we might as well stick with that because, one, we're not bothered to think harder than that, and two, and people are just going to believe us. Because I think, know, if you say a conspiracy theory, like, unicorns are real,
00:17:02
Speaker
Right? Yeah. Or if you say 9-11 was an inside job, you're going to have very different levels of response just because one of them is is so much less talked about.
00:17:14
Speaker
And if you stick with this narrative that is already present, you're almost guaranteeing that you're not going to be just called like, okay, he's crazy. You know? Yeah. Yeah. and And I totally yeah i i agree.
00:17:27
Speaker
um So to conclude the episode of that, today we've discussed Louis Theroux's latest documentary, The Manosphere. And we've just sort of discussed similarly to Theroux's stance, how ridiculous um these misogynistic, anti-Semitic um views which are promoted by in growing popularity on the internet.
Social Media's Role in Shaping Views
00:17:48
Speaker
I think to finish with a final quote, Diane, I was reading some commentary of the of this documentary in Spectator, and it said it's probably exhibit A for banning social media to under eighteen teens and that it's men performing dominance they do not possess.
00:18:06
Speaker
And I think that is probably very true with this documentary. yeah It's men trying to seek attention ah through these fairly heinous views. And similarly, it's a good case for banning social media Whether or not you agree with that is a totally other different debate.
00:18:24
Speaker
But it does definitely show how social media can be used, I suppose, to promote less positive views. Yeah, definitely. And it's really important for people to know who they're listening to.
00:18:39
Speaker
And to not just take everything at face value, whether they're watching HSTTOKI or they're watching us, they'll employ your brain and decide for yourself whether you actually agree with what we're saying or if you disagree, which is also perfectly fine.
00:18:56
Speaker
um Wishing you all a great week. If you're from the UK, watch out. Don't share vapes. Be safe.
00:19:07
Speaker
And if you're from anywhere else also, same thing applies. See you next week. See you then.