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S4 E40: Pessimism, Philosophy’s most dismal theory.
33 Plays7 days ago
Today John and Dejan are discussing the theory of Pessimism. Listen to hear them bring some joy to what is a rather dismal topic. Please like, subscribe, comment, and follow.
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Transcript
Introduction to Pessimism
00:00:00
debatablediscussions
Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Debatable Discussions podcast. You join us for another exciting episode today as we unfortunately, suppose, discuss a slightly less, perhaps sort of joyful topic in many ways, which is pessimism.
00:00:19
debatablediscussions
However, I suppose we'll try and sort of bring some joy to what is quite, I suppose, a dismal topic in many ways there.
00:00:24
Dejan
Yeah. Yeah, so pessimism is philosophical theory, sort of pioneered and spearheaded by Arthur Schopenhauer, German philosopher.
00:00:35
Dejan
And the core idea of pessimism really is that suffering is intrinsic and a necessary part of life.
00:00:40
debatablediscussions
is
00:00:45
Dejan
But sort of the divergence maybe from sort of other... philosophies that also claim suffering is necessary is that pessimism treats it as sort of dismal truth in the sense that due to suffering, lots of pessimists would argue that joy is only a fleeting emotion.
00:01:06
Dejan
It's an
Philosophical Views on Suffering
00:01:06
Dejan
illusion. And that suffering is the normal and most common experience in the human condition. But also that perhaps existence is less preferable than non-existence.
00:01:19
Dejan
So we've said quite a lot there, but could you just sort of explain to our listeners a bit more what pessimism is, John?
00:01:21
debatablediscussions
Thank you.
00:01:26
debatablediscussions
Yes, so as you described there, Diane, pessimism is, I suppose, more than just thinking negatively. It's somewhat of way of life that's shaped around this idea of focusing upon negative outcomes in every sense. It's viewing suffering as the typical state of human existence.
00:01:45
debatablediscussions
And that's joy, sort of, as you mentioned there, these fleeting moments that take us away from suffering. So I suppose it sort of embodies us in always expecting the worst, always expecting to suffer.
00:01:58
Dejan
Yes.
00:01:59
debatablediscussions
It's, as I said at the start, it's a slightly dismal philosophy, sort of associated with philosophers of this absurd or existentialist like Schopenhauer, but also people like Nietzsche.
00:02:11
debatablediscussions
philosophers like Friedrich Nietzsche, another German philosopher, who focuses on this idea of suffering being unavoidable and that we should embrace the struggle and almost the pain from life. One of his moralities is called slave morality, I think shows how he views us as almost, well in that case, accepting slavish moral values as humans. But he's got a rather pessimistic view of life. It's totally orientated around negatives.
00:02:41
debatablediscussions
It's obviously, yeah,
00:02:43
Dejan
Yeah, I think also another philosopher we definitely need to mention is a Romanian philosopher this time, Choran, very famous, and who wrote a book called The Trouble with Being Born.
00:02:55
Dejan
And in this book, The Trouble with Being Born, he says, and I quote, it's not worth the bother of killing yourself since you always kill yourself too late.
00:03:04
Dejan
Only optimists commit suicide. Optimists are no longer succeed at being optimists. The others have no reason to live. Why would they have any to die? So I think from these two quotes, John, we can definitely get the sort of gist of pessimism. is a hardcore pessimist philosopher. But how do you interpret this sort of fascination with suffering that maybe some of these people have?
Personal Experiences and Philosophical Outlooks
00:03:49
Dejan
Yep, yeah.
00:03:50
debatablediscussions
think, yeah, it's almost to do so much with one sort of personal state of being that influences their work. But I think a key thing about pessimism is that as much as it is a theory itself, it's also a thread between many other theories of always expecting the worst.
00:04:10
debatablediscussions
So to go to one we recently talked about, we did an episode on international relations, And we looked at two theories there, or three actually, but two the ones we talked about were realism, which in my mind has in as always being in this constant desire for power, wanting to weaken one
Pessimism in International Relations
00:04:31
debatablediscussions
another. It's this idea of states being greedy, and that has this sort of pessimistic thread. Whereas constructivism, on the other hand,
00:04:40
debatablediscussions
is got this sort of optimistic characteristic. It's about states building relationships with one each other, working through intergovernmental organisations. So I think as much as pessimism philosophy in itself, it's a thread which sort of finds and weaves its way through so many other fields. What do you think, Diane?
00:05:02
Dejan
Yeah, I think, you know, you're definitely right, I think, when you say about it's a personal choice whether to be pessimistic. I think, know, if you look at Camus, for example, him and Choran, you know, both agree that life has no meaning.
00:05:10
debatablediscussions
yeah.
00:05:19
Dejan
However, the difference is that Camus believes you should enjoy it, whilst pessimists would say, well, actually, what is there to enjoy?
00:05:26
debatablediscussions
Yeah.
Emotional Influence on Philosophy
00:05:27
Dejan
It's all depressing. And to some extent, I think, you know, there is a truth in that. There is a truth in the fact that suffering is part of the human condition. It's perhaps, I would say, a stronger emotion than joy.
00:05:43
Dejan
I think if I could choose where I could be, you know, if I could avoid suffering or if I could be happy, I think I'd choose to avoid suffering.
00:05:44
debatablediscussions
yeah
00:05:53
Dejan
I think it's a stronger emotion. So... To some extent, I think they have a point, but the way they've taken that point and made it so universal, that I don't really agree with. And there's another famous quote by him, Samuel R. Mann, a philosopher, saying, what would be left of our troubles if an insect showed his troubles to us?
00:06:15
Dejan
I think that's another thing, that everyone's got troubles in life. It's just how you deal with them. What do you think?
00:06:21
debatablediscussions
Yeah, and I'd actually sort of like to grasp an idea mentioned there about avoiding suffering, because it's been in many philosophical theories that one can sort of pursue pleasure or they can aim for happiness in life, but one with needs,
00:06:39
debatablediscussions
pain or suffering to know what pleasure is like. It's this sort of the dichotomy between the two. can only have one with the other.
00:06:48
debatablediscussions
You can only know what makes you happy if you know what makes you not happy.
00:06:53
debatablediscussions
works in that sort of relationship, which I think very interesting. Sort of you need to go through the hard times, one could say, sort of quite cliche, but you need go the hard times and not the good times are like.
00:07:04
debatablediscussions
We're doing A levels at the moment for our listeners. And it's, you know, we've sort of had over the past two years, sort of a plethora of tests.
00:07:13
debatablediscussions
And you revise for those little tests, we've still got big ones to go, but you revise for the small tests. But when you get an exam result, which you like, that's the sort of the pleasure, which perhaps snaps you out of that pessimistic mindset, because you almost need to know what the suffering is like, to know what the pleasure is like.
00:07:31
Dejan
Yeah.
00:07:32
debatablediscussions
It's also comparison with Karl Popper, famous British philosopher sort of articulated negative utilitarianism.
Debate on Joy and Suffering
00:07:40
debatablediscussions
And negative utilitarianism is based around trying to avoid suffering, not trying to pursue pleasure. And it's similar what you said there, Diane. It's about the avoidance of suffering, he viewed, as more valuable than the pursuit of pleasure.
00:07:58
debatablediscussions
Now, we'll go back to pessimism, but I should caveat this to saying that Popper's negative utilitarianism is not a sound ethical theory, because if you try to avoid pain to such an extent, it sort of ends up in mass suicide, because you're trying to sort of, you know, get rid of everything and to avoid the most amount of pain.
00:08:16
Dejan
Yeah.
00:08:20
debatablediscussions
perhaps it means non-existence.
00:08:21
Dejan
Yes.
00:08:22
debatablediscussions
But I suppose that's a pessimistic note down to go back to pessimism. Yeah.
00:08:26
Dejan
I think also something I think is worth exploring is whether we would say that life is... on the whole, a joyful journey with breaks of sadness or a sad journey with breaks of happiness. I think that that is the distinction between sort of people who would consider themselves to be pessimists and people who wouldn't consider themselves to be pessimists. You know, a pessimist would say, most of life is awful, but then there are some breaks that they call sort illusions. There are some breaks of joy. Well, I think most people, myself included, would say, you know, it's usually quite an all right journey with some breaks of sadness. What do you think about that?
00:09:13
debatablediscussions
Yeah, I totally agree. I definitely think life is a joyful journey with odd breaks of sadness. I think, you know, I'm 18 years old.
00:09:19
Dejan
Yeah.
00:09:22
debatablediscussions
I can't remember all the 18 years I've been alive, but of what I can remember, just intuitively, remember my past, you know, the past few years very joyfully. Perhaps you focus almost on the good moments and ways, I don't know. yeah, I think just intuitively,
00:09:41
debatablediscussions
I think I'm more of an optimistic person many ways, but I think perhaps that's why that I focus on, I view life as being a joyful journey I've had over the past few years.
00:09:51
debatablediscussions
I'm sure there have been breaks of sadness, but I think it's a majority thing.
00:09:51
Dejan
Yeah.
00:09:55
debatablediscussions
I think, you have more joy or do you have pain? And I think definitely there's been more joy. But it's a personal thing, though. And I think that's perhaps goes back to why some of these philosophers have articulated theories with pessimism in Because perhaps it's how you view your own life.
00:10:13
debatablediscussions
I can't speak for everyone in saying that... in that life is a joyful journey with breaks of sadness because I suppose it only represents my life it doesn't represent and my sort of short life I suppose in many ways so far not everyone else's everyone else's life
00:10:29
Dejan
Yeah, I think you've said really well. I think it's sort of a personal decision whether you subscribe to pessimism. But I also think in some way,
00:10:40
Dejan
your choice would define your life. think if you sort of expect everything to be very, very, very abysmal, then I think you would sort of put yourself in a position of accepting that more and sort focusing on that more. So I think it's,
00:10:58
Dejan
it's a two-way street. You choose to subscribe to pessimism as a philosophy because of your circumstances, but then you keep going in that cycle.
Stoicism vs. Pessimism
00:11:10
Dejan
doesn't allow you to break that cycle.
00:11:12
Dejan
Another thing that I find quite interesting about pessimism, really, is that the characters we have, mainly in pessimism, do have some sort of universal...
00:11:25
Dejan
So Arthur Schopenhauer, for example, was notoriously very easily annoyed.
00:11:29
debatablediscussions
yeah.
00:11:30
Dejan
You had some great, great quotes on, you know, dogs in the street. But also he wrote a book, not really a book, so more of an essay, which is The Art of Being Happy.
00:11:42
debatablediscussions
Yeah. Yeah.
00:11:44
Dejan
What do you think about the reasons why I think, you know, a philosophy going around right now is Stoicism.
00:11:53
debatablediscussions
Yeah.
00:11:53
Dejan
Why do you think Stoicism is going around in a way that pessimism isn't? Because they're, you know, they're two sides of the same coin, really.
00:12:00
debatablediscussions
I suppose, is pessimism not fashion, one way? I don't know. think there's a lot to be pessimistic about in world we live in today. think one event for me recently was when Trump put that deadline on Iran and almost threat a nuclear war.
00:12:21
Dejan
Yeah.
00:12:22
debatablediscussions
And this situation with Iran, similarly all these other conflicts across the world, in the Middle East, also in Ukraine, it really makes one feel slightly pessimistic, I think, in many ways.
00:12:35
debatablediscussions
There are obviously moments of joy amongst the world, but Perhaps pessimism is fashionable. Yeah, it is fashionable really because it's a consequence. As someone interested in politics, it can almost be seen as a consequence of the political world. I think some voters in Britain now will be feeling very pessimistic with Sakea.
00:12:56
debatablediscussions
You've got Trump acting crazy. Trump is basically out control in the Middle East. Yeah, so it's, yeah, pessimism, I think, is definitely a consequence of what is happening in the world.
00:13:10
Dejan
Yeah, I think also Arthur Schopenhauer said this as well. He actually was quite influenced by Stoicism in a way. So his approach of, and what said, of avoiding pain rather than chasing joy comes from Schopenhauer.
00:13:10
debatablediscussions
Yeah.
00:13:25
Dejan
And he was quite influenced by the sort power of will and your will of being able to overcome you know, overcome your sort of boredom. He says that life in itself is full of boredom and futile desire. What do you think that our life is full of boredom? Do you think actually stuff happens?
00:13:47
debatablediscussions
oh no i didn't think life's full of boredom uh i mean this is another i suppose very personal question in the sense of it depends upon one's experience of life uh greatly uh but i nonetheless think that there are moments of joy within life. I think it can be something, particular experiences, family, friends, and they are those moments of joy in life.
00:14:15
debatablediscussions
But then, as I said, it is so relative upon one's consequence, upon one's situation, many ways, one's context. But another idea, sorry, Darren, just to go back, but stoicism you mentioned, Aaron,
00:14:26
Dejan
Yeah.
00:14:28
debatablediscussions
And I should have said why I think Stoicism is fashionable at the moment. And I do think Stoicism is completely fashionable for the wrong reasons. So Stoicism sort of trying to live like a Stoic, having these strong values. And I think it's fashionable sort of because of this Manosphere.
00:14:46
debatablediscussions
We've done an episode on it recently. So after you listen to this, do you listen to it?
00:14:47
Dejan
Yeah.
00:14:51
debatablediscussions
But Stoicism has become this way of being almost sort of bizarrely the perfect man, etc. So I find Stoicism a ridiculous sort of philosophy at the moment just because it's used by the manosphere to create this sort of male overly sort of, I suppose, negatively masculine agenda.
00:15:15
debatablediscussions
But I mean, but it's good philosophy, I suppose, in many ways. It's just sort of how it's been used by personal influencers.
00:15:20
Dejan
Yeah.
00:15:22
debatablediscussions
Yeah.
00:15:22
Dejan
agree with you here. I think Sturgeon is probably the most... misinterpreted philosophy out there there's lot of people say yeah i'm a stoic so know don't show any emotions but but actually that's that's not that's not what emotion was so stoicism is about so if you read marcus aurelius one of the most famous stoics roman emperor it's not about being a stone and not feeling anything but it's about
00:15:29
debatablediscussions
Okay, yeah.
Concluding Thoughts on Pessimism
00:15:46
Dejan
knowing where you can change and knowing where you can control and for things that aren't in your control to not worry about them because there's nothing you can but the things in your control yeah you know if if someone close to you suffering yeah you can suffer with them but it's about not leaving yourself be trapped in that cycle it's about getting up and sort of getting going but you know think this is a very good sort of whistle stop tour of pessimism we've done if our listeners are interested in more i'd sort of recommend some schopenhauer he's got some very funny quotes uh very cynical a bit a bit of borderline but one one of my favorites one for him are there are two kinds of people in the world avoid both of them i think we should leave yeah
00:16:35
debatablediscussions
And actually, before you read any Schopenhauer to the listeners, do also look at some of our past episodes on philosophy. We've done so many from even our first episode we were discussing, Diane, was on philosophy. So do take a listen to all of those. think, well, I mean, we were actually having a difficult time finding philosophical theory we haven't discussed. So take a listen as well.
00:16:58
Dejan
Yeah. And you know, the last one, uh, from Schopenhauer is, let me just find a very good one. well, this him about talking about himself when asked why he refuses to go out. And said a high degree of intellect tends to make a man unsocial.
00:17:17
Dejan
So, you know, read with caution.
00:17:18
debatablediscussions
Yeah. Yeah.
00:17:21
Dejan
Read with caution. say definitely an interesting individual to analyze, but I would be wary of falling into the trap of finding every single event in life sort of calamity.
00:17:33
debatablediscussions
I suppose that we'll finish the episode. Do like, subscribe, comment, rate us five stars, anything like that would be much appreciated. you next time.
00:17:40
Dejan
We'll see you soon.