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Andy Burnham’s first days in office …
23 Plays10 days ago
Today John and Dejan are discussing Andy Burnham’s first days as Prime Minister and his newly appointed cabinet. Please like, subscribe, comment, and watch some of our other episodes.
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Transcript
Andy Burnham's New Cabinet
00:00:01
df
Hello, welcome back to another episode of the Debatable Discussions podcast. Today we are attacking a very common discussion right now in the UK, which is Andy Burnham's new cabinet.
00:00:14
df
So John, for those of us who perhaps have been holiday or haven't been sort of engaging with the news as we would liked to be,
00:00:24
df
Who actually is in Andy Berners' new cabinet and why is this significant?
00:00:28
debatablediscussions
Yes, Diane, as you mentioned there, Andy Burnham rolled into number 10 this week, taking the reins from Sakiya Starmer, the man in many ways who he usurped to be prime minister.
00:00:43
debatablediscussions
Burnham had a big opportunity ahead of him because he's able to, as we've said, remould and create a legacy.
00:00:50
df
Yes.
00:00:50
debatablediscussions
Burnham's every intention won't be just to last the two years. He wants to win general elections like any politician. So fittingly, Diane, he's had to create a cabinet.
Chancellor Appointment: John Healy
00:01:02
debatablediscussions
a force around him that unites the Labour Party that is so broken which we saw under Keir Starmer so it has to unite all these different factions and also include some of perhaps the rising stars or the best and biggest players inside the UK Labour Party I think the most interesting one, which was perhaps also the most unexpected, was John Healy as Chancellor.
00:01:28
debatablediscussions
The markets were particularly worried about it being Ed Miliband.
00:01:30
df
Yeah. Yeah.
00:01:33
debatablediscussions
He was perhaps tipped off to be it. But John Healy was probably a very good choice by Burnham. Obviously, we've got to see what Healy does. But on the face of it,
00:01:56
debatablediscussions
Similarly, he's less almost well known to the public which I think helps a bit. As I said, that sort of doesn't apply to Miliband and Shabana Mahmood or Wes Streeting who are very well known.
00:02:04
df
Yeah.
00:02:06
debatablediscussions
Similarly, their political views are very well known. So I was very impressed in a way with his choice of John Healy as Chancellor. He didn't perhaps succumb to the internal pressures of the Labour Party to make it Meliband on the left wing or Mahmood or Streeting from the more right wing of the Labour Party.
Ed Miliband as Foreign Secretary
00:02:25
debatablediscussions
The man I mentioned there though, Ed Miliband, a long-standing Burnham ally. I think they were together under Brown. He though did slip into Foreign Secretary.
00:02:36
debatablediscussions
Interestingly enough, actually, it's the position which his brother David was wanting. uh but obviously his brother didn't get returned from the states and been made ed i think this is a really difficult job primarily due to the man across the atlantic who hasn't exactly made foreign relations easy in fairness to most people it's a sort of perpetual challenge with trump
00:02:51
df
Yeah.
00:02:55
df
Nah.
00:03:04
debatablediscussions
Miliband was many ways was an odd choice because he's definitely not someone in the Labour Party who Trump get on with. Obviously Miliband's got a long-standing history of critiquing Trump.
00:03:14
debatablediscussions
An obstacle but similarly a lot or most people do have a long-standing history of critiquing Trump and his policies. However, I think Miliband could pose the greatest challenge in many ways, especially with that relationship with Trump. However, is foreign affairs. People pay less notice to it. And perhaps Trump, perhaps the door was actually closed to have a meaningful relationship with the Labour government and Trump.
The Role of the Foreign Secretary
00:03:42
debatablediscussions
So there may have just been no hope there.
00:03:47
df
Yeah, definitely. I think on that as well, the critique that I've been hearing on the sort of more left wing of the Labour Party supporters is actually the Foreign Secretary role is being to lose importance because most of the high level diplomacy is being done by the PM themselves.
00:04:06
df
I think that's a very fair statement.
00:04:06
debatablediscussions
Oh yeah, definitely. Definitely. Yeah.
00:04:09
df
And also this would sort alleviate the pressure of Melibar. I think he'd be very good at dealing with this sort of Gaza issue that is very present right now in everyone's minds.
00:04:22
df
I think he'd be alright dealing with the war in Ukraine. And I think with the sort of Donald Trump relations, I think Bannon will have to take some time from himself and deal with that himself.
00:04:32
df
Because as you've said, Ed Miliband and Donald Trump are not the greatest of friends. But going back to John Healy, I agree with you. I think it's been a very good choice, mainly because John Healy is sort of seen as a centrist in the party.
00:04:40
debatablediscussions
yeah
00:04:47
df
He's not really partisan with the sort West Street and Shabana Mahmood side, nor is he with the Miliband side. So it provides a bit of stability actually a bit of communication between the different sides of the party. But also, I have to give credit here, Michael Gove made this point. I do agree with him, is that John Healy, although a very good communicator for the Chancellor's Quypest of procedural style communication, he doesn't have the sort of same PR that someone like Miliband or Mahmood or West Streeting have.
00:05:15
debatablediscussions
Oh no, yeah.
00:05:18
df
And then therefore Burnham has actually ensured that his chancellor is not going to do anything to sort stab him in the back and take the premiership for themselves.
00:05:29
debatablediscussions
Yeah, and likewise it means that it's just putting a less divisive figure in and I think that would have been a challenge with Miliband.
00:05:35
df
Yeah.
00:05:37
debatablediscussions
Similarly with Miliband, he just wasn't seen as a sensible pair of hands.
00:05:41
df
No.
00:05:42
debatablediscussions
And actually your point about foreign policy is very true. Anyone worth talking to is dealt with by the Prime Minister, especially in this day and age with Britain's place in the world order.
00:05:55
debatablediscussions
I mean, Miliband and similarly the Speaker of the House, they're only going to be dealing with foreign partners who are themselves as the main leader who are frankly insignificant. Yeah.
00:06:07
df
And even if they're not insignificant, they'll be dealing with sort of continuous issues.
00:06:12
df
the war in Ukraine, things that keep going on day in, day out, 24 hours a day.
00:06:18
df
But sort of this, this Iran situation as well. I think the communication between the UK and Donald Trump will be done by Burnham himself.
Shabana Mahmood: Home Secretary
00:06:27
df
Moving on to Shabana Mahmood, interesting that she stays as Home Secretary.
00:06:32
df
I think it's quite sort of Balancing even, I'd say, with her and Ed Miliband sort being two sides of the same coin, one the Home Office, the other one in the Foreign Service, heading those and sort of being the signpost for the two sides of the Labour Party.
00:06:47
debatablediscussions
Yeah, and yeah, as you said, they're very different characters. Mahmood probably appeals as Home Secretary to this sort of slightly, one could say, anti-immigration rhetoric that exists in the UK.
00:06:59
df
Yeah.
00:07:00
df
Yeah.
00:07:01
debatablediscussions
She's on that right wing of the Labour Party.
00:07:03
debatablediscussions
They feel that can work more with voters. Also, she's viewed as being very competent, as being a sort of rising star of the Labour Party, very good government minister.
00:07:13
df
Yeah.
00:07:13
debatablediscussions
And similarly with perhaps where streeting doesn't know the most about defence, but nonetheless, it's seen a sort of, in my eyes, as a more sensible pair of hands to deal with those portfolios.
00:07:27
debatablediscussions
Especially, and it's sort of, I suppose, reassuring to see that Burnham hasn't relied too much on people on his side of the party. However, I should preface that by saying what Darren Jones was to Keir Starmer, Louise Haig is to Annie Burnham.
00:07:45
debatablediscussions
She is his right-to-hand woman.
00:07:45
df
Yeah.
00:07:47
debatablediscussions
So he's made her Chancellor of the Dutry of Lancaster, a sort of role in which they do anything and everything. the right-hand woman in her case to the PM.
00:07:55
df
Yeah.
00:07:58
debatablediscussions
And I think that's a really essential role for Burnham. He wants someone almost in his inner circle, quite literally in his inner circle of cabinet.
00:08:04
df
Yeah.
00:08:09
debatablediscussions
Likewise, Diane.
00:08:09
df
No, think it makes sense.
00:08:10
debatablediscussions
Yeah, yeah.
00:08:12
df
I think it makes sense. I think it's a good choice getting someone, again, who's not a very public figure really, hasn't been someone that's been the press all the time, such as Miliband, Shabala Mahmood, West Streeting, etc.
00:08:20
debatablediscussions
I suppose, yeah, ish.
00:08:29
df
So she's definitely one of Burnham's closest allies. I think her appointment John Healy's are kind of, I think, in the same way.
00:08:37
df
He wants people he can trust in those key positions so that he can govern.
00:08:41
debatablediscussions
Yeah, I think, yeah, sort they're different in a way. I think Hay is a far bigger ally of him. mean, there's some slight controversy with her. She did have to resign as cabinet minister on Starmer.
00:08:52
df
Well, it's a very...
00:08:54
df
On that, yeah, I think just to make clear to our viewers who don't know, think she got robbed in London or something. She reported things stolen. Actually, she found her government phone at home and, uh, then called, opened it, think called in the police, something like that.
00:09:13
df
And then that was, that was, that was the whole controversy. She didn't get fined, didn't get, you know, put in prison or anything.
00:09:18
debatablediscussions
Yeah, yeah.
00:09:20
df
So yeah.
00:09:25
df
Yeah.
00:09:26
debatablediscussions
To be honest, I think she's somewhat divisive as well. But she's, I mean, she's not ultra divisive, though, in a way, as you said there. But she really is perhaps the most powerful person in that cabinet. She's the one
Business and Science Secretary: Jonathan Reynolds
00:09:40
debatablediscussions
who accesses Starmer.
00:09:43
debatablediscussions
In sort of Tudor England it's someone like Thomas Walsley or Thomas Cromwell to Henry VIII.
00:09:49
df
Yeah.
00:09:49
debatablediscussions
It's this idea in my eyes of being the right-hand person, the political operator, the Darren Jones, I said, Starmer.
00:09:59
debatablediscussions
There's a few other roles here which are quite interesting. Jonathan Reynolds has taken over as Business and Science Secretary. That department has been enlarged to, I think, include net zero as well. A pressing and sort of divisive issue within the Labour Party that would have made it very difficult for Miliband to be Chancellor.
00:10:22
debatablediscussions
Miliband's become quite renowned for wanting net zero Miliband being on that left-wing side of the Labour Party Pat McFadden's also in work and pensions a very difficult job the UK's largest expenditure and it's something that I almost feel inevitably there will be some sort of upset and we can mention that in a second with Burnham's policies
00:10:22
df
Yeah. Yes.
00:10:54
debatablediscussions
Yes, health, yeah.
00:11:00
df
I think a lot of people expected her to keep going as their foreign secretary and maybe West Streeting actually to keep going as well. But who knows?
00:11:09
debatablediscussions
Yeah, I didn't see her as Foran, actually. I thought Foran would be... Burnham wants... Yeah, Miliband and Foran made sense for me, actually.
00:11:19
debatablediscussions
It was going to be someone close to him who could unite.
00:11:19
df
Yeah, me too. But I think people expect the West Treaty to keep going for House Secretary.
00:11:25
debatablediscussions
Yeah, in-house.
00:11:27
debatablediscussions
Yeah.
00:11:28
df
I think we'll see how this unfolds.
00:11:30
df
I think the real big story here is Angela Rayner coming back to the cabinet and sort of back into the Labour in a political circle.
00:11:34
debatablediscussions
Yeah.
00:11:39
df
So she was the now Housing Secretary. Slightly ironic because had to resign due to a housing tax issue, which is sorted out.
00:11:47
debatablediscussions
That is, yeah.
00:11:48
df
She said, I mean, know, fair enough, resigned, said she had a bad tax advisor, paid per outstanding bills and now she's back.
00:11:58
df
Yeah.
00:11:59
debatablediscussions
Yeah, I think on Rayner, actually, Burnham was probably in a slight predicament. He had to give Rayner something because she is a major player, a big figure in the UK Labour Party.
00:12:13
debatablediscussions
And he's followed, it seems, this logic of choosing people that are important in the party to unite it, to perhaps provide more of a sense of direction.
00:12:26
debatablediscussions
and unity that it had under Starmer. What will be interesting is how much Burnham trusts Angela Rayner. By this I mean, one of Burnham's big policies is devolution.
00:12:40
debatablediscussions
which could fall under Rainer's remit as housing a local government secretary.
00:12:45
debatablediscussions
So it'll be interesting if Burnham trusts her with that because that's one of his landmark policies. He's coming in as the former mayor of Greater Manchester who was arguing for further devolution.
00:12:56
debatablediscussions
So I think it will be interesting how much he trusts Rainer. Is he going to give her that? matter to deal with or is he going to sideline her a bit more?
00:13:07
df
Yeah.
00:13:08
debatablediscussions
On this day, Anne, perhaps we should also mention what Burnham has done in the last few days. I think he's probably started... He started with a clear purpose and a clear goal, and that's to achieve small but somewhat tangible things in his first days of office, which looks impressive, especially with this whole rhetoric around Starmer not achieving much.
00:13:21
df
Yeah.
00:13:27
df
I think that's a good plan. Yeah.
00:13:34
df
Yeah.
00:13:35
debatablediscussions
So number 10 of the North, which does have its critics and many, many flaws,
00:13:42
debatablediscussions
Not only, mean, to be honest, I'll touch on the number 10 of the North, which is idea is to sort of combat the North-South divide in the UK. I think it works, but I think trying to combat the North-South divide in the UK, Burnham potentially actually risks actually emphasising it and making it seem a bigger thing than it actually is.
00:14:03
debatablediscussions
Perhaps the UK is London-centric. but it's very difficult and not many states can be like let's say Germany where there is a very decentralized economy.
00:14:16
df
Yeah.
00:14:16
debatablediscussions
France is centralized upon Paris. don't know, would it be Italy is centralized upon the north of their country, Milan.
00:14:26
df
Milan, really.
00:14:28
debatablediscussions
So yeah so I do think Burnham risks emphasising the North-South divide in the UK which he does seem to actually be doing yeah
00:14:34
df
Yeah.
00:14:37
df
I think... Yeah, I think on that, it's interesting to see how it's going to play out. I think it's a good move now, to be honest, for his first days of office.
00:14:46
df
Who knows what actually No. 10 North will actually do and how big, how important it's actually going to be.
00:14:50
debatablediscussions
yeah it
00:14:53
df
If it's just a sort of statement, I think it's a good play by him.
00:14:58
debatablediscussions
Yeah.
00:15:00
df
He's managed to get a decent amount of support from so disenfranchised people in the north about it quite quickly. But I think it's really premature because we don't actually know what the purpose of the building is.
00:15:12
debatablediscussions
We don't know what it is, but I do think it is just this way of almost trying to win publicity in my eyes by trying to make the North-South divide, by trying to emphasise it or accentuate it.
00:15:18
df
Yeah. Yeah.
00:15:23
df
Yeah.
00:15:24
debatablediscussions
But similarly...
00:15:25
df
Another...
00:15:26
debatablediscussions
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
00:15:27
df
Another thing that he's done, which has been quite well received, is he's removed the VAT of energy bills.
00:15:33
debatablediscussions
Yeah.
00:15:34
df
Again, very small change, administrative change, really, for him. didn't take a lot of effort on massive bill. But I think this is what he needs to do. think he needs to keep focusing on these small issues that he can easily fix. And if he can pile up enough of them, they'll be of significant impact. Same with capping bus fares at £2 nationally, which again is going to just take off a little bit of that pressure of some people, but also more generally, I think it's going to make it clear about what his agenda is.
00:15:58
debatablediscussions
Yeah.
00:16:10
df
His agenda is about reducing the cost of living and making ordinary life every single day just a bit better. And last but not least, the pub's business rate discount of 20 cents.
00:16:17
debatablediscussions
Yeah.
00:16:22
debatablediscussions
Yeah, he's got business rates.
00:16:23
df
Yeah.
00:16:25
debatablediscussions
But I think the biggest issue with this all is that, as you said there, Diane, and I agree with this completely, it's excellent publicity. These are sort small wins. But I think small issues and small wins become far larger things.
00:16:41
debatablediscussions
So there's going to be questions on how to fund this.
00:16:46
df
Well, they've sorted that out already.
00:16:47
debatablediscussions
He plans further projects. Well, he has and he hasn't. He claimed there £850 million from the Digital ID project, which apparently doesn't exist, which people in the Labour Party have said doesn't exist.
00:16:54
df
Yeah.
00:16:57
df
I think another thing he said, though, is that they will...
00:16:58
debatablediscussions
It was EMR... It's going to be raised taxes.
00:17:03
debatablediscussions
I think...
00:17:03
df
No, no, no.
00:17:04
df
I think what he said is rates of other businesses will go up to pay for the cutting business rates for pubs. So he said that betting, high street betting, vape shops and other tobacco stores will have higher business rates that will then pay for these cuts.
00:17:20
debatablediscussions
Yeah, still, but I mean, okay, he can try and do that. Businesses that are notorious for avoiding tax, he can try and tax them more.
00:17:27
df
Yeah.
00:17:27
debatablediscussions
But I think in reality, there will be raised taxes. Burnham is a big spender. He's used to being someone who was given money as the mayor of Greater Manchester to effectively spend.
00:17:38
df
Yeah.
Challenges Ahead for Burnham
00:18:03
debatablediscussions
Obviously, as we said, he's got Healy as Chancellor, so he'll be working this out currently in office.
00:18:09
df
Yeah.
00:18:10
debatablediscussions
So I think there's challenges ahead of Burnham, but as we said there equally, there's probably opportunities ahead of him as well.
00:18:16
df
Definitely.
00:18:17
debatablediscussions
He does have a good opportunity. It seems like he's almost got one of the best opportunities of the last, well actually saying that Stalham had a great opportunity with a huge majority.
00:18:24
df
Ten years, yeah.
00:18:27
debatablediscussions
But Burnham does have a good opportunity to do something. So it will be interesting what he makes of this opportunity.
00:18:36
df
yeah definitely and also not just that but he's got he's got sort of a a fixed mandate we'll see so reform are jumping up and down about a general election i mean who knows i think some people speculating that he's doing these small small wins now with maybe calling a general election quite soon and to try and extend his his term even
00:18:44
debatablediscussions
Yeah.
00:19:00
df
with the cost of losing some seeds. I don't know about that, to be honest. I think we'll see.
00:19:05
debatablediscussions
Me too, I think.
00:19:05
df
To me, it doesn't make any sense doing it.
00:19:06
debatablediscussions
Yeah.
00:19:08
df
But at the same time, if he feels that there's a moment they can maintain that majority in some way and extend their time by three, four years, I mean, it's a no brain decision to go for
00:19:08
debatablediscussions
Yeah.
00:19:13
debatablediscussions
Pounce. Yeah.
Absences in the Cabinet: Lammy and Reeves
00:19:20
df
it.
00:19:20
df
But just before we end, we talked about what happened and we've talked about who's in the cabinet, we actually haven't talked about who's not in the cabinet anymore.
00:19:22
debatablediscussions
Yes.
00:19:27
debatablediscussions
Yes, that's a good point.
00:19:29
df
There's two important names, one being David Lammy and second one being Rachel Reeves.
00:19:32
debatablediscussions
Yes.
00:19:35
debatablediscussions
Yeah.
00:19:37
debatablediscussions
I mean, I'll briefly touch on this, Diane. I think Rachel Reeves is sort of borderline political suicide to include her in her cabinet, especially how unpopular she's been.
00:19:46
df
Yeah.
00:19:48
debatablediscussions
So I'm not surprised. But also, I think there's this idea of being a break from the past, Burnham wants to be.
00:19:54
df
Yeah.
00:19:54
debatablediscussions
He wants to be new Labour authority. And with those almost landmark figures like Darren Jones, like David Lamley, like Rachel Reeves, those landmark figures of Starmer's Labour, he had to say no to them because personally they're probably not on sort of what he wants, but also is it perhaps transitioning the party from where it's been for the last only two years, but for the last two years?
00:20:23
df
Yeah, I agree with you. I think, you know, definitely there had to be some change and definitely some people had to go because Bernal has said that he wants to things differently, wants Labour to work differently, to operate differently.
00:20:33
debatablediscussions
Yeah.
00:20:35
df
and said that Leibar hasn't been good enough. And to say all that and to keep the same team is simply bizarre. So yeah, I think definitely a good choice.
00:20:46
df
We'll see what they do and we'll comment on it as it happens. But definitely, as you said, a load of challenges, but also a lot of opportunities are ahead for him.
00:20:55
debatablediscussions
Yeah.
Closing and Future Developments
00:20:55
debatablediscussions
So we've hoped you've enjoyed the episode and we'll see you next week. Please do like, subscribe, comment, follow. Do almost anything you can to engage and interact with the podcast, especially because we've got some exciting things on the horizon.
00:21:11
df
Yeah. See you then.
00:21:14
debatablediscussions
you then.