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S4 E27: Environmentalism with Lord Goldsmith
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Today, we are joined by Baron Goldsmith of Richmond Park, Zac Goldsmith. Tune in to hear us discuss the importance of championing nature in politics. Please follow the podcast, rate us 5 stars, and check us out on social media.
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Transcript
Introduction of Zach Goldsmith
00:00:00
Dejan
Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Debatable Discussions podcast. Today we're incredibly lucky to be joined by Zach Goldsmith in very special episode just a week shy of Christmas. Zach thank you so much for coming.
00:00:13
ZG
Thank you for having Yeah.
00:00:15
debatablediscussions
Yes, so thank you, Zach, for coming on the podcast today. Many of our listeners, I'm sure, will know Lord Goldsmith or Zach from his time the Lords, as well as being an MP and member of the Conservative Party.
00:00:27
debatablediscussions
Perhaps one of the most characteristic elements of your politics is your passion for the environment.
Zach's Political Journey and Environmental Focus
00:00:34
debatablediscussions
what is the motivation behind your environmentalism?
00:00:38
ZG
I mean, in a way, it's the other way around. I got involved in politics because of the environment. As far back as I remember, from being a kind of nerdy child, campaigning to have canaries and doves released from their little cages and put into bed, all the way through running a magazine for about 10 years called The Ecologist, politics was just a means to an end.
00:00:56
ZG
But it was the same end.
00:00:57
debatablediscussions
Thank you.
00:00:58
ZG
Because I feel that there's just not enough champions for the natural world in politics, on the left or the right. and logically it is the biggest issue. I mean, on an emotional level, anyone who watches a David Attenborough falls in love with the natural world. That's a great gift that he's brought us all because he's taken us to places that we're never going be able to go and see things that we would never otherwise see. When you learn at a young age that much of that is at risk, some of it's already gone, that's pretty depressing on an emotional level, on a sort of spiritual level, but it's
Impact of Ecosystem Loss
00:01:28
ZG
more than that. It's practical as well. If you lose the Congo Basin, that's going to screw Africa on a biblical scale. It produces most of the rainfall that makes agriculture possible across the whole continent. So it's not just an emotional thing or sort of niche concern. This is absolutely central to our future as a species. And it just feels crazy to me that so few people are focusing on it politically.
00:01:52
Dejan
I think you've mentioned a really interesting point there, and that is the amount of pragmatism and how to actually solve these issues. So how do you think the government should address environmental problems and sort of a comparison between what they should do versus what they are doing at the moment?
00:02:08
ZG
I think one of the problems, and it's not just governments, I think environmental groups have got some responsibility for this, is the whole issue of the environment has been reduced down to this very one-dimensional, narrow focus on carbon, and particularly carbon countings all around
Critique on Government's Environmental Focus
00:02:23
ZG
emissions.
00:02:23
ZG
So whenever I'm asked onto broadcast platform, BBC, Channel 4, international stuff, whatever, to talk about the environment, almost always the questions are about net zero.
00:02:26
Dejan
Thank you.
00:02:33
ZG
They're not about forests or biodiversity or mangroves or corals or the oceans or any of these things. And I think that's deformed the way we approach this issue. So if you look at this government, they're very much on the front foot in terms of carbon. They've increased the amount of money for home insulation there.
00:02:51
ZG
putting more money into renewable energy. You look at our international aid, it's about 11 billion on climate finance. But almost all of that is on carbon-related matters, technological fixes.
00:03:03
ZG
There's no technological substitute for a mangrove. There's no technological substitute for the Congo Basin.
00:03:07
debatablediscussions
Thank you.
00:03:08
ZG
If it's gone, we're in trouble. If the Amazon goes, we're in even bigger trouble. If the forests of Southeast Asia go, all three of them go, it's game over for all of us. You're looking at a humanitarian crisis on a sort of biblical scale.
00:03:20
ZG
The focus, as far as I'm concerned, should be much, much, much more towards the natural and fixing our relationship with the natural environment, protecting the forest. And we know it can be done. In a sense, the news is very bleak. We're losing a million hectares of Congo every year. The Amazon is rife with illegal deforestation.
Successful Conservation Models Worldwide
00:03:37
ZG
We're losing species.
00:03:39
ZG
But the good news is that pretty much everything that needs to be done is already being done somewhere. It's just not happening everywhere. So, you know, look at, look, Gabon is not a rich country, but they've had zero deforestation, more or less, for, you know, the last whole generation.
00:03:54
ZG
You look at Guyana, they protected all their forests as well. So quite a wealthy country. You look at, Indonesia, which as I, when I was in my kind of real campaign stage, pre-politics, they were the bad guys.
00:04:06
ZG
Everyone was talking about palm oil and massive despoilation of incredible ecosystems, but they have basically, they don't get any credit for this, but they have pretty much broken the link between palm oil and deforestation.
00:04:12
Dejan
Thank you.
00:04:18
ZG
But palm oil still contributes a little bit, but it's tiny, tiny, tiny compared to how it was. So they figured out how to do it. You know, it's not just the commodity, palm oil and soy and cattle. I went as a minister to the Republic of Congo, as opposed to the Democratic Republic, which is really problematic place, but the Republic of Congo.
00:04:36
ZG
I was taken to their oldest logging concession. And I walked through and went there fully expecting to be depressed by the destruction of this extraordinary ecosystem.
00:04:46
ZG
But honestly, I wouldn't have known that it had ever been logged. The forest code is so careful. It's two trees for every three hectares. Full employment in the area, everyone involved, they banned the export of raw timber so people now have to turn it into something that requires upskilling, really high skilled jobs. You can buy a flatback house now from this concession and have it sent you. It's extraordinary. It's one of the most healthy ecosystems I've been in. There are more forest elephants there than anywhere else in the Congo in that concession that's been logged twice. So, you know, they've managed to break the link between logging, which is the most obvious form of deforestation. They've broken the link between logging and deforestation.
00:05:21
ZG
you know, so many examples, Costa Rica, it's a country that was the poorest country in pretty much all of Latin America 70, 80 years ago.
Economic Benefits of Environmental Responsibility
00:05:28
ZG
It's now one of the wealthiest. It's politically very stable.
00:05:30
ZG
They've massively increased. I think they've doubled their forest cover.
00:05:33
Dejan
Thank you.
00:05:33
ZG
So they've broken the link between economic development and environmental extraction or environmental destruction. And we haven't got that long on this discussion, but There are so many examples. And so we're often said, well, you've look, know, people have to eat, you know, you've got to allow these poorer countries to develop. But it's just not correct to approach it in that manner. Some of the most prosperous countries or the countries that are doing best now are countries which have got to grips with the illegal wildlife trade, got to grips with illegal deforestation. And the reality is that a million hectares of land is cut down and converted into, for example, soy in Brazil today, It's not going to be poor peasants who are benefiting from that.
00:06:13
ZG
It's a criminal enterprise. It's a tiny number of very powerful organizations and individuals. And it's not as going to be paying tax to the government and the money will then go on services. It sort of exists in a criminal bubble. So I feel that we can be optimistic, but it does require leadership.
UK's Environmental Commitment Concerns
00:06:30
ZG
And we're getting some in some countries, but not nearly enough. And in the UK, we've really dropped the ball on nature. Six years ago, sort of tried to redefine the environment so that it wasn't just carbon. We committed, when I was a minister, committed to re-increasing at least a third of that climate budget to go on nature-based solutions.
00:06:49
ZG
We made deforestation the central point of the climate COP that we hosted in Glasgow in 2021 or two, can't remember what year. And that's all gone now.
00:07:00
ZG
You know, that ring fence is being removed as we speak. It'll be announced probably in a week or two. It used to be climate and nature. Now it's climate and energy. And, you know, having helped design a absolutely unique one-off project huge forest fund which was to be announced in Brazil by President Lula which is a perpetual fund that would create income year after year for countries who haven't cut down their forests and it's significant amounts of money know it was British people who helped design it we helped galvanize people around this and then for the last eight months we went quiet and then we didn't join in this is not a grant it's not a donation it's an investment it will be returned is exactly what we've been asking for we we're previous UK governments, we environmentalists, and of course, the forest nations themselves. And the UK has just walked away. And it was so shocking in Brazil that the anger among leaders of other countries towards the UK was just extraordinary. So I think there's a lot the UK could be doing to provide leadership. I mean, and it's not, of course, it's not just
00:08:01
ZG
It's not just forest stuff. I mean, it was UK negotiators principally who succeeded in negotiating for the first time treaty for the high seas, those areas beyond national jurisdiction, allowing us to create huge protected areas around the world in places where previously we couldn't. It really was our negotiators. I mean, was the minister at the time. I can't take any credit for this. We had brilliant people in government who were doing the negotiations. Of course, I was encouraging them and pushing them, but they did all the hard work. was British people who did that. And yet, when
Market Forces vs Political Influence in Renewable Energy
00:08:30
ZG
it came to ratifying the treaty, the treaty that we are primarily responsible for, we haven't ratified it. 60 other countries have. And we keep asking the government, when's it going happen? And they kind shrug their shoulders. So it feels to me like nature has gone right off the agenda and it's all about this sort of techie, low carbon transition, which is great, but you could have every house in the world covered in solar panels. If we lose those ecosystems, it's game over for food security, rainfall, you name it.
00:08:59
debatablediscussions
Yeah, find that really interesting because you mentioned that how environmental responsibility can also lead to economic performance and a strong economy.
00:09:08
ZG
Yeah.
00:09:09
debatablediscussions
And that's something which has been a criticism of net zero as perhaps damaging the economy. But what's your view on net zero? you think it like and Diane do? Do you think it's important for us to achieve this state of reducing climate emissions?
00:09:24
ZG
Yeah, without any doubt, we do. And, you know, there are good policies and bad policies, but the objective, I think, is absolutely central. So I would like us to achieve net zero. I'd like it to happen as quickly as possible. And I would like governments to choose the most elegant solutions for achieving it without increasing the cost of living for people at the bottom of the ladder who can least afford it. And I think that's possible.
00:09:47
ZG
We know it's possible. The fastest growing sector in the UK has been, I don't know about this year, but until certainly the beginning of last year was in terms of jobs, was this transition.
00:09:48
Dejan
Thank
00:09:57
ZG
There were more jobs in clean energy and low carbon developments than any other sector. And I don't think anyone would argue with that. It seems to me that continuing to transfer you know, trillions of dollars, not just the UK, obviously, but the Western world into oil producing nations, some of which are not that reliable as allies, just doesn't make sense. A lot of that money comes back to bite us. We've seen, you know, Qatar, well, there are plenty of examples, which we can go into if you want, but it seems to me that that's not a very clever strategy politically from a climate point of view, it's obviously disastrous.
00:10:32
ZG
And feels to me that not only is a transition a good thing, it's inevitable. So, and this again a sort of political thing. If you, you know, even under President Trump in his first administration, where he poured public money into trying to prop up the coal sector, the coal sector still fell more on his watch than it had on President Obama, who was quite hostile to coal. And so politicians exaggerate their impact when it comes to the market. The market is so powerful. It's like a sort untameable beast. And it's already made the decision that we're going to head through this transition. Much more money was invested last year in new renewable energy than in old fossil fuel capacity building. It was by many factors, and this has been true for the last six or seven or even maybe eight years. So don't preoccupy myself that much with the politics of net zero because I feel like it's out of our hands. The market is taking us in that direction very, very quickly. And I think that's a very good thing. The problem is with nature, that is not true, that the incentive to cut down a forest is about 40 times greater than the incentive to protect it. And the market is not going to fix that.
00:11:40
ZG
Things like the Brazilian fund I mentioned earlier will have a big impact, but it's not enough. We need more than that. And that's where think you really do need government intervention. You do need to regulatory intervention.
00:11:51
ZG
I'm a conservative. I don't want big government. I don't want unnecessary regulation. But the environmental catastrophe that's unfolding
00:11:56
Dejan
okay
00:11:58
ZG
is the result of market failure, the failure of the market to recognize the value of things until they've been cashed in. So the Amazon's worth nothing until you turn it into toilet paper. But without the Amazon, you've got no rainfall all the way up to the southern states in the US. Their rainfall comes from the northern belt of the Amazon. I mean, it's sort of unarguable, really. So it feels to me that that is where the focus should be. And I always say, one of the things that I'm trying to do all the time is to find...
00:12:25
ZG
new philanthropists, mega rich people, instead of building another museum or in their name or doing something which might be nice, but it's not going to save the world.
00:12:33
Dejan
Thank you.
00:12:35
ZG
I try and encourage people to put money into nature. And you've got some great new philanthropists, but even there, the majority of what is spent is on kind of the technological transition.
00:12:46
debatablediscussions
Yeah.
00:12:47
ZG
It's just very hard to break people out of that viewpoint. But things are improving. know, I do work, not paid, but I do sort advisory and collaborative work with the Bezos Fund.
00:12:56
ZG
And they put billions and billions specifically into repairing our relationship with the natural world. So I'd love there to be more organizations of that sort, because governments can't do it on their own.
00:13:07
Dejan
Yeah, you've mentioned this idea of nature and as sort of someone who studies quite bit of biology, it's clear that we need ecosystems that are vibrant and diverse so that we can thrive as humans as well. But you've also mentioned this idea of leadership.
00:13:24
ZG
Mm-hmm.
00:13:24
Dejan
And this is a two part question is who do you think is providing the leadership for nature and for climate change worldwide and then also the sort of regional UK level?
Key Environmental Leaders in the UK
00:13:50
ZG
And I remember when he was being toppled, you know, the people from the Green, even the Green Party, senior people who were publicly demanding his resignation, privately sending me texts saying, this is going to be a disaster for the environment.
00:14:02
ZG
And I was so angry with them. If you think that party gate, whatever it was called, is more important than the Amazon, then what the hell are you doing in the Green Party?
00:14:06
debatablediscussions
Yeah.
00:14:10
ZG
So it was very, very odd. And the moment he actually went, A lot of the papers, you know, left-wing papers, the Mirror, the Independent was more left-leaning in those days. Guardian, all in different ways acknowledged his leadership on the environment, begrudgingly, but he was no longer a threat. He'd gone, so they could compliment him for that.
00:14:27
ZG
And I think the UK led the way on oceans. We protected more ocean that we controlled than any other country in the world. We led on the High Seas Treaty. We led on the Plastics Treaty, which is still taking shape now, but the agreement was secured under standards.
00:14:41
ZG
and negotiators. I think most countries would agree, many publicly said that if it wasn't for the UK we wouldn't have signed up to the 30 by 30 agreement in Montreal which is to protect 30% of the world's land and sea by the end of the decade.
00:14:48
Dejan
Thank you.
00:14:54
ZG
And then we had the Glasgow leaders declaration on forests and for the first time we got almost all of the world's forests covered by this agreement that they would phase out deforestation. But what made it different was it wasn't just politicians saying we're going to do this.
00:15:08
ZG
although they did, it was that we got the biggest traders like CoFCO, China's bigger, the world's biggest commodity trader, I think, saying that they would align their buying practices with that commitment. And so suddenly you had countries like Brazil under President Bolsonaro, who was unbelievably hostile to the Glasgow leaders declaration, refused to sign it. Two or three days before the actual COP, he signed it because he could see his market was going to walk away from him. CoFCO is his biggest market.
00:15:33
ZG
I mean, these are political commitments and a lot of stuff has not happened. So it's not like solution tick the moment governments sign up to something. As we know, the UK signed up to lot of stuff, but we haven't done anything really in the last year and a half, two years to try and give meaning to those agreements.
00:15:48
ZG
So we've got a lot more work to do. But I just feel there was a lot more leadership. We had President Duque of Colombia. This was a man who was dealing with COVID, dealing with
00:15:57
Dejan
Thank you.
00:15:58
ZG
a massive refugee crisis, 2 million refugees going into Colombia, but still found time to fly to Brazil on behalf of the UK to try and persuade them to sign up to the Glasgow Leaders Declaration. He increased protection in Colombia from 7% of the country to more than 30% of the country on his watch. They only do one term.
00:16:15
ZG
The leader of Costa Rica, President Alvarado, these are great people who did great things. And I look around the world today and there aren't that many. President Lula did pretty well at COP. He managed to get the fund off the ground, not as big as we were hoping, but it wouldn't have happened at all without him. Macron speaks, I mean, I've heard him speak many times on these issues. He speaks beautifully, but he doesn't seem to have much power to do anything. So France is always saying that he is always saying the right thing on global environmental issues, but there's very rarely sufficient follow-up.
00:16:44
ZG
After that, I mean, who else is there? In the UK, the champion we have, I would say, is David Lamy. And it's sort surprisingly, perhaps, I don't know, but he, I know him quite well. know him very well. He feels it. This is not just an academic box-ticking thing. You know, he cares. And I think one of the reasons for that, his family come from Guyana. which is a country that's rightly immensely proud of the fact that they've had zero deforestation for years and years and years.
00:17:10
ZG
It's a very healthy ecosystem, Guyana. And that's a source of huge pride for anyone who's connected with Guyana. So when David Lammy speaks about these issues, he speaks with real authority, real passion.
00:17:20
ZG
The problem is that being moved from the Foreign Office to Deputy Prime Minister, other people around the world think that's a promotion, but it's kind of an empty title.
00:17:26
Dejan
Thank you.
00:17:28
ZG
I mean, it doesn't have to be, I don't think, but it usually has been. And it means that on some of these big issues that I was talking about earlier, if he had been the Foreign Secretary in the run up to the COP in Brazil, the UK would have signed up to this fund. We just would have done it. He would have been passionate about it. He would have pushed it. So I regard him as our kind most senior nature champion. But I honestly don't think there's, you know, I think Starmer, Rachel Reeves, I think they would probably look at a forest and they'd see nothing more than kind of carbon sticks, things that, you know, take carbon out of, no sort of ecological understanding or respect for the biology or the, you know, the, the, the magic of these highly complex systems. So I put a lot of hopes on David Lammy. I'm lobbying him. I probably annoyed the hell out of him. I'm always badgering him on these issues, but his heart is there and he understands these issues.
00:18:16
debatablediscussions
Yeah, and it is a real...
00:18:18
ZG
I can't remember what the question was now. I hope I answered it. If I didn't, come back.
00:18:20
Dejan
yeah
00:18:22
debatablediscussions
But it is a real shame, as you said there, that Saki is just, you know, suppose, amidst all his U-turning policies and sort of economic chaos, he's just forgetting about nature, which is real shame. Yeah.
00:18:34
ZG
It's, I mean, it's this is one of the problems with politics, and it's why people hate politicians and hate politics, is you just see people saying things, and you know in your gut that if they were in a different department, they'd be saying exact opposite, or if they were in a different party, they'd be saying exact opposite, and I've seen this.
00:18:49
ZG
You know, we had when we were still in government, I wasn't, I resigned by then, but I was pushing Really simple amendment. I mean, embarrassingly simple amendment to have all new homes built, fitted with at least one swift brick, which, swift brick cavity nesting birds, they need cavities, obviously, otherwise they're going to go extinct.
00:19:04
debatablediscussions
Thank you.
00:19:05
ZG
and eight cavity nesting species and they're all plummeting. I mean, massive drops in numbers. So this is a very cheap thing, a 20 quid a brick in the context of building a new house.
00:19:14
ZG
You wouldn't even notice that they require no expertise, no management, no cleaning. Anyone can do it. Any brickie can do it. Any homeowner can just forget about them. Most people would, I think, enjoy them.
00:19:24
ZG
And Labour supported my amendment and spoke passionately about how good this was. And then they got into government. And I went to see the new Secretary State for the Environment, Steve Reid. He's not on the debate, but he was in the environment.
00:19:35
Dejan
Thank you.
00:19:35
ZG
And he was passionately in favor of him.
00:19:37
ZG
just thought, OK, we're done. You know, the Conservatives dropped the ball on this. They too slow. Then was an election. And it could so easily have been done, but it wasn't. Suddenly, they'd done a total U-turn. The exact same amendment was reintroduced in the planning bill by me.
00:19:50
ZG
The same ministers standing up for Labour were the people who'd passionately spoken in favor of this amendment just two years ago, absolutely rejected it. And what's changed?
00:20:00
debatablediscussions
Thank you.
00:20:00
ZG
The arguments haven't changed. If anything, there are stronger because we lost even more swifts and other cavity nesting birds. And you just think, well, how are we supposed to trust?
00:20:10
Dejan
Thank you.
00:20:11
ZG
And putting aside the issue itself, how are you supposed to trust politicians when you elect them? on the basis of an understanding and then everything's torn up almost immediately afterwards. It's a very demoralizing, very depressing thing. And there are so many examples of this, areas where when I was a minister, I was pushed very hard and I wanted to be pushed. was obviously wanting more than my own party would give on environmental issues under TRAS, under SUNAC, even under Boris.
00:20:38
ZG
And I often would talk to the Labour opposition and I talk about which bits they should push that we might get lucky on.
00:20:40
Dejan
Thank you.
00:20:45
ZG
Don't bother pushing on that because I'm not going to win that argument. But it was a very collaborative thing and they would ask the right questions, they table the right amendments and we got a lot done. We got a lot done. And I benefited from that pressure. Perhaps one of the problems today is that they don't feel that pressure because the Conservatives are not focusing on these issues. I think there's a real hostility to net zero. I don't think there's any hostility to the nature agenda. And I still believe the Conservatives will come up with a comprehensive answer to that. I really hope so, obviously.
00:21:14
ZG
But they're not putting pressure on Labour. So Labour has no pressure from the opposition. They don't really have pressure from the environmental groups because they're just not used to bashing Labour Party. They're mostly kind of left leaning. So it's sort of they're getting away with it. And it's only a handful of people like me standing up in Parliament or writing letters to ministers who are trying to hold them to the stuff that they were apparently passionate about only two years ago, but for which have been just dropped in the bin. So politically, it's very demoralizing. You sort wonder, can you trust anyone in politics?
00:21:44
debatablediscussions
And yeah, that is fascinating of how I think especially we see whenever we look at the politics. Some politicians sort lack a bit of integrity in a way, as you described there. You also mentioned your resignation.
00:21:56
debatablediscussions
And that's something that's very interesting reading about you.
00:21:56
ZG
Hmm.
00:21:59
debatablediscussions
So can you perhaps elaborate on
Zach's Resignation over Heathrow Expansion
00:22:01
debatablediscussions
why you resigned? And am I right saying it was over the third runway at Heathrow?
00:22:05
ZG
I'm going to sound like a real diva. I've resigned twice. I did resign over Heathrow. That was when I was an MP, not a minister. But the reason for that, it's pretty simple. I mean, it wasn't...
00:22:16
ZG
I was very unlikely to get elected in Richmond Park in North Kingston.
00:22:18
Dejan
Thank you.
00:22:19
ZG
It was a Lib Dem seat. The odds were stacked against. But, you know, people don't trust politicians on any party. And people would ask me, well, what happens if the Conservatives U-turn on Heathrow expansion?
00:22:30
ZG
And I said, I don't believe they will. But if they do, I'll resign and trigger a by-election. And this was widely reported, and they said it a number of times. And at the time, I didn't think we would U-turn. So I thought the arguments were very strong.
00:22:41
ZG
But sure enough, under Theresa May, the party did U-turn.
00:22:44
debatablediscussions
Thank
00:22:45
ZG
And so I felt I didn't want to do a by-election. I didn't want to resign. I had so much more that I wanted to do. And this wasn't, you know, this is big issue for my constituents. It's a big issue environmentally, but there are many bigger issues.
00:22:56
ZG
And I wouldn't have chosen to resign had I not promised that I would. So I did the by-election. was a very bruising thing. I got booted out because I was up against...
00:23:05
ZG
Obviously, wasn't a conservative. I was an independent. I didn't have the party. I didn't have the addresses, the data that you need in order to mount a proper election campaign.
00:23:11
debatablediscussions
yeah.
00:23:14
ZG
And I just got squashed. But the resignation as a minister was different.
00:23:18
Dejan
Thank
00:23:18
ZG
That was much more... I think, much more important. And it was no more necessary. So if you promise you're going to something, you do it.
Resignation over Climate Finance Misrepresentation
00:23:26
ZG
But what was happening there was that we, the government had made a pledge under Boris Johnson that we would double our international climate finance to 11.5 billion.
00:23:36
ZG
And this mattered a lot to our friends around the world, particularly small island states. You think about 34 countries in the Commonwealth are small island states. This stuff is not academic for them, it's existential.
00:23:47
ZG
And so that promise went down really well and it helped geopolitically. It was important as well in the Pacific, talking to, you know, where there's this sort of tussle going on with China over soft power influence and so on.
00:23:58
ZG
And our relationships were very, very good. And the rumors were abounding that under Rishi Sunak, they were going to cancel that pledge. And I've never seen such anger from normally very diplomatic leaders and leaders of countries, know, small island states. And I won't repeat which countries because they're private, but small island states across the Pacific and the Caribbean and a few bigger countries that are climate vulnerable.
00:24:21
ZG
And I sought assurances from the government. was a minister. I said, if I'm going be telling people this is not true, you need to find a way of reassuring me so I can reassure others.
00:24:30
ZG
And then I became part of an internal discussion. where it was very obvious that the government was going to be redefining things to become climate finance. Things that had nothing to do with the environment, nothing to do with climate change. It was just going into other stuff and it was really fraud. And was going to have to stand up at the dispatch box in the Lords and defend this fraud on an issue that I care passionately about. And I obviously wasn't going to do that. And so I actually, I wrote a letter of resignation, but I didn't post it for a month because I was still hoping to win the argument. And, but it became obvious day after day that this was not happen. I wasn't going to win. I sensed also that I was becoming such a pest to internally to the government, that they probably would have found an excuse to get rid of me anyway. And I didn't want them to get away with it. I didn't want them to get away with this fraud. So kind of blew the whistle and, and, and resigned.
00:25:22
ZG
And I would do the same again today. I was subs. I loved being a minister. I loved, had such a good team of people in government. From day one as a minister, I had some of the best civil servants. We became like a little campaign group within government. And they were just so good, so nice, so reliable, so clever.
00:25:40
ZG
So I was enjoying it. But there comes a point where, you know, under Boris and Even at the beginning of Truss, when she was getting her feet under the table, we were making so much progress. It was like filling our boots with great things and taking risks and paying off.
00:25:55
ZG
And then suddenly under Sunak, it was more about holding the position and then slowing the retreat and just realizing that going backwards is not something any minister wants to do, and particularly if it's an issue that you really care about.
00:26:08
ZG
So that's why. Very long-winded answer, sorry.
00:26:11
debatablediscussions
I don't
00:26:12
Dejan
No worries. Why do you think there was a change in attitude? I mean, you know, think it's lot more understandable if you have a change in attitude on an issue that changes, but the environment is almost this sort of ever-present issue that is a global thing. So why did the government just suddenly decide to change its opinion?
00:26:32
ZG
I mean, it's illogical, you're right, because logically, If you cut down all the mangroves, your whole coastal communities are susceptible then to storm surges.
00:26:42
ZG
When Colombia had a record surge and people died and villages were destroyed, they saw that the areas that had been battered but not destroyed were the areas where they still had their corals and their mangroves. So the response of the government under President Duque was, okay, well, that's going going to repair these ecosystems.
00:26:53
Dejan
so
00:26:57
ZG
That's the best insurance we can have. It wasn't an environmental solution. It was a human solution. It was about protecting communities. And many examples of that sort. That's proper leadership. But he, you know, I guess he had a broad enough mind and was interested enough in the world to understand the link.
00:27:11
ZG
And we just lacked that. We still lack it in the UK where it's as if we exist outside of nature, that that's something over there that we like to watch on TV, maybe occasionally put sort of welly boots on and go outside.
00:27:23
ZG
But that's it, as opposed to being fundamentally and completely part of nature. Everything we have, everything we love, everything we need, everything we do derives from the natural world.
00:27:32
Dejan
Thank you.
00:27:33
ZG
But it somehow That very obvious fact, which most children, I think, would understand, that just gets bred out of our leaders, our politicians at a certain point. So it's not a kind of malignancy. It's not a conspiracy. I just feel like Rishi Sunak, for example, I just don't think he saw this. He saw it as an absolute indulgence, waste of time, not interested all. He quite liked the net zero because that was about investment. It was about jobs. It's fine, good stuff. But But couldn't recognize, just didn't resonate with him, the importance of restoring and protecting the natural world.
00:28:07
ZG
And I think that's, I mean, it's very hard to explain, but that is what it is. Maybe they think it's too difficult and we can leave it to another generation. But it's It feels to me that there's also a fear of doing things which look like they're anti-business.
00:28:18
Dejan
you.
00:28:23
ZG
So that's probably why the Swift Brick Amendment wasn't accepted. But I had got letters from many of the big house building organizations who said, yeah, wait, wait. Some of them said they liked it.
00:28:34
ZG
Some of them were indifferent, but none of them opposed it because they could see that it was a tiny requirement on them. So yes, technically regulation, but in reality, make no difference to the speed with which people, or the cost of producing new homes.
00:28:46
ZG
But there's this kind of terror of upsetting vested interest. But I think we need to turn that on its head. I mean, I was never the fisheries minister. I was responsible for oceans beyond domestic waters.
00:28:57
ZG
So things like our overseas territories. And when it came to international discussions, I was the minister responsible. But domestically, never was. And I remember... arguing in DEFRA about the fact that we still allow bottom trawling, which is the most destructive form of industrial fishing. We do it not just in our oceans, but in our protected waters. So things that you have been told, I've been told, all been told are marine protected areas are being hoovered. It's like deforesting the Amazon. It's absolute carnage. It was caught very well on the film that Attenborough just made, Ocean. So I remember arguing about this and saying, why did we know this is insane? It's like, again, it's a kind of fraud on people. People think they're protected. They're very happy about that. And yet we're destroying these environments.
00:29:37
ZG
And they said, well, we are looking into this and we're going to be consulting with stakeholders. But when I looked at what they meant by stakeholders, It was only the big fishing operators. But I'm a stakeholder. You're a stakeholder. My kids are stakeholders. Anyone who does tourism in these areas is a stakeholder. But somehow we've reached a point where there's a certain sector has extraordinary regulatory control or lobbying, disproportionate lobbying potency when it comes to decision makers. And I saw that a lot in government. And I think we do slightly need to turn this on its head. You know, I commissioned loads of polls.
00:30:16
ZG
private ones just to try and win arguments in government. But honestly, it doesn't matter how you ask the question. And it doesn't matter who you ask, black, white, rich, poor, left, right, old, young, it just doesn't matter. Everyone wants more nature.
00:30:31
ZG
Everyone does. They want more leadership on these issues, and they want more biodiversity. Often it's in the context of the local community and other people. It's concern about what's happening around the world, but everyone wants it.
00:30:41
ZG
And I don't think you see much difference between reform voters and Lib Dem voters or Labour or Conservatives. So it's it's there's a kind of disconnect there, but as there is on so many issues, as we know, but there's a disconnect there between decision makers, our kind of back office, our civil service. And I think part of it's that they're just too used to being lobbied by these slick organizations that represent big industrial interests, and they've just always had privileged access.
00:31:09
ZG
And so they keep on making the default decisions.
Conclusion: Prioritizing Nature over Corporate Targets
00:31:12
debatablediscussions
And I think that's a really sort of powerful message to finish the episode with. Sort of that importance of actually nature. And that's been really interesting for me about the importance of nature over these sort of perhaps more corporate carbon targets that we all hear about.
00:31:28
debatablediscussions
So thank you very much for coming on.
00:31:30
ZG
make you one more point before you end, but I just want to make, because people even, you know, marine protected areas, often it's like fishermen or marine protected areas.
00:31:31
debatablediscussions
Oh, yes.
00:31:38
ZG
The country that has the biggest number of marine protected areas in terms of individual places, not overall volume, is the Philippines. And the reason for that is the Philippines introduced a new law. They didn't like the politics of imposing MPAs, marine protected areas. It got too messy and toxic. So, OK, we won't impose any. But communities now have the right to set up their own. Fishing communities can set up their if they want to. And they walked away from it.
00:32:01
ZG
And what they discovered is the fishing communities wanted marine protected areas, because they noted if you protect that area, you get more fish in this area and your income goes up, you catch more fish. And so as a result of this democracy, this letting decentralization, you've seen an absolute mushrooming in the number of marine protected areas. And I just think it blows apart the idea that we often hear from big industrial fishing communities, that if you start protecting this area, you're going to destroy livelihoods. It's exact opposite of the truth. And we've seen that in the Philippines, and we would see that in any country where they adopted the same policy.
00:32:36
ZG
So there's no tension there. There doesn't have to be tension there. Anyway, thank you so much for this discussion. Sorry for my long-winded answers. I'm looking at the clock and seeing that I went way over the time.
00:32:45
Dejan
Thank you. Thank you. was really interesting. I think for us, but also for our viewers and listeners, a really different type of episode and one that was clear was sort of with passion and with genuine passion for the subject matter.
00:33:01
Dejan
So Zach, thank you very much for sharing your knowledge with all of us today.
00:33:05
ZG
Thank you both so much and good luck.