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Which city has had the greatest impact on world history?
63 Plays1 month ago
Today John and Dejan are discussing the dinner party question of which city has had the greatest impact on world history? Watch to hear them try and make a step closer to answering one of history's most complex questions. Please like, subscribe, and comment.
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Transcript
Introduction: What Makes a City Historically Important?
00:00:00
John Gartside
Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Debatable Discussions podcast. You join us for another exciting episode as today we delve into historical question that's perhaps frequently asked, but perhaps also never really seems to have an answer. So we'll sort try and progress closer towards whatever the answer may be.
00:00:22
John Gartside
So Daya, what is that question?
00:00:25
df
Well, it's not to be or not to be, but it is which city has been the most historically important, which has had the greatest historical impact and influence over the world.
00:00:38
df
And I think, John, as you've said, this is one of those questions that if you're ever at dinner and with someone you don't really know and they sort of ask you a question...
00:00:48
df
That's something that you can always rely on. So what do you think is the most historically important city? But also it's very hard to answer because there are different metrics of looking at historical significance.
00:00:59
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:01:01
df
One metric we're definitely going to be using today is were it for this city not to have existed, would the world today be any different? So, for example, I would argue that for city to be historically relevant at all, that condition must apply.
00:01:20
df
So for example, Athens, without Athens, democracy wouldn't have existed. Therefore, Athens is a relevant historical city for this conversation and debate.
Economic Revolutions and Trade Hubs
00:01:31
df
I think on the other hand, there's a couple more metrics that we probably need to clarify first. So we're going to be looking at the sort of impact it has had in the region, but also throughout.
00:01:41
df
And also again, speaking at the sort period of time that that impact has been sort of relevant for. So John, start us off. What are some of the contenders for this title?
00:01:54
John Gartside
Yeah, had a few initial thoughts. And I think really, it's such a broad question that you can look at it in so many ways or lenses of history. So initially, I firstly thought of economic history.
00:02:07
John Gartside
If you're looking at economic history, you could think of trade. So cities that important for trade. One could say Cape Town initially before they to go around the Cape of Good Hope.
00:02:16
John Gartside
But then it became, one could say, cities that had profound impact upon trade would be somewhere like Cairo or the Gulf of Aden in Yemen, which were very important. However, one has sort of think, as you said there, Diane, that definition of If it weren't for that city, would the impact on world history be?
00:02:36
John Gartside
So think they're very historically important. Cities equally like Hong Kong have proved to be essential for world trade, especially the opium wars for Hong Kong.
00:02:47
John Gartside
So there's some sort of interesting contenders that I had in my head, but also economically, so many cities have had huge economic importance, but I think of Manchester being as the birthplace of the industrial revolution,
00:02:59
df
Wow. Yeah.
00:03:02
John Gartside
and that transition the global economy into this industrial manner, that being almost an essential city. Similarly, it sort of is a bit cyclical because then you could, one could say San Francisco with Silicon Valley and what is now perhaps an AI revolution or definitely the technological revolution of this century. So I think from an economic lens, you can sort of think of it in that way. But I'm trying to sort of think of my head loud, but then you've obviously got a political sense, cities that had huge political importance.
00:03:39
df
Mm-hmm.
00:03:39
John Gartside
But I would say perhaps Paris, obviously the French Revolution, which was the seismic, political events across the world. It arguably inspired the American Revolution. And perhaps those values that it installed and demonstrated was sort of a key turning point, a key transitioning towards actually the democratic principles that have been laid by Athens.
00:04:06
John Gartside
I mean, similarly, there are so many other cities across the world, but I think sort of thinking economically or politically, you've got a sort of a few interesting angles to go down there, Diane.
00:04:16
df
Yeah.
00:04:17
John Gartside
What other cities come to your head as being perhaps the most important?
Cultural and Philosophical Legacies
00:04:21
df
Yeah, I think I want just sort of make an addition to what you said about Paris. I think Paris, you can also look at it from the sort of modern perspective as this sort cradle of thought and of art and of culture, you know, with very diverse personalities. They've had a sort of group of very well-known, these sort existentialist, absurdist thinkers
00:04:43
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:04:44
df
Camus, Sartre, Eugenio Nesco, a lot of other people, but also you've had the sort of artistic Pablo Picasso, Modigliani, Ernest Hemingway lived in Paris for a while.
00:04:52
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:04:57
df
So you have this sort of great cultural significance. I also look at cities through this sort of sort philosophical lens, the thought that they provided.
00:05:02
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:05:09
df
think
00:05:10
John Gartside
Sort of intellectual history.
00:05:11
df
Indeed, indeed.
00:05:12
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:05:13
df
So I think, you know, Athens, for me, probably has to be a number one, you know, Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, the Greeks, the sort the Stoics, Zenon, the Stoics, the
Religious Impact of Middle Eastern Cities
00:05:25
df
Cynics, Diogenes, you know, basically for an entire library full of Greek philosophy.
00:05:25
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:05:31
df
Rome, for the same reason as well, you know, you've got Seneca, Marcus Aurelius, some of the more modern Stoics, but also Cicero and others.
00:05:42
df
Lucian of Sanisata as well, another Roman writer. And also the poetry from Rome, some of my favourite, Ovid, Catullus, Marshall, Pliny, all these people.
00:05:57
df
But I think you also have to look at this sort of wide spectrum and maybe if we sort of escape this Eurocentrism for a minute, you've got some cities such as Baghdad and Damascus that were the sort of cradles of the Islamic tradition.
00:06:09
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:06:14
df
So, you know, Baghdad, especially great library in Baghdad during the sort seven centuries that sort guided and held the sort
00:06:24
df
writers and scholars of the day at the high standard and you know to just remind our listeners that the way the west has sort recovered aristotle really is is through sort of islamic invasion of spain with them bringing back the text in arabic and then us being able to to recover them that way so you know damascus syria as well but i think know we can't talk about the most important historical city without making two religious mentions.
00:06:51
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:06:52
df
Three actually. Mecca being Saudi Arabia, the holiest site really for Muslims where they do the Hajj pilgrimage.
00:07:03
df
And then you have on the other side, you've got Nazareth, the birthplace of Jesus Christ. Again, city of tremendous historical importance for that reason, because of the impact and effects of Christianity.
00:07:15
df
But another city that actually joins them all together is Jerusalem. Jerusalem, you know, has basically been at the center of history and conflict for the last thousands of years.
00:07:27
df
Started... you know, trust the scriptures thousands and thousands and thousands of years ago, but also throughout more modern recent history. So I'm going to start actually around sort of 2000,
00:07:44
df
something years ago, the Roman invasion, a very bloody persecution of Jews by the Romans from the birthplace of Christ and all of that period. But also the Crusades, perhaps some of the most interesting and important parts of history. know you can tell us a lot more about them. But And moving on from the Crusades, we see Jerusalem being at the center of a conflict now, today.
00:08:11
df
You know, Israel as a nation, after it was founded, after the Second World War, hasn't managed to escape the sort of cycle of conflict. And that's something that, from what I noticed, is something that's sort periodically happened in the region.
00:08:26
John Gartside
Yeah, I really like that. I think for intellectual history, you made a very good point there. A lot of intellectual thought has been based around Rome and Athens.
00:08:36
John Gartside
And so if you're looking at which cities have had perhaps the most profound impact on an intellectual basis, I think you could definitely say and Athens. Hence the importance of the study of classics.
00:08:49
John Gartside
a subject which is literally based upon studying these two cities in that ancient times, really as hubs of intellectual thought. So I think definitely them and perhaps slightly Paris, you could sort of group in with them as real hubs and driving engines of intellectual history, not to sort of diminish the other many, many hundreds cities across the world which have made a huge intellectual contribution. But one can see especially those two, but also Paris as a third cities as being almost real hubs or catalysts or breakaway points in the history intellectually. Similarly, Diane, you mentioned that it's interesting, sort of religious history is really sort based upon these cities in the Middle East.
00:09:36
df
Yeah.
00:09:38
John Gartside
which had a profound impact upon religion, sort of globally, the city, and that the Middle East being of immense religious importance. That's not to diminish, I suppose, many of the Asian religions, that also Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Confucianism,
00:09:56
John Gartside
which are founded in equally important Asian cities across Asia but really though nonetheless the Middle East definitely in terms of sort of the religious population of the world has had perhaps most profound impact as an area as the birthplace of so many religions Christianity, Judaism,
00:10:11
df
Yeah.
Latin American Cultural and Economic Influence
00:10:16
df
Yeah. And think also about that, I think, you know, if we look at religious history, it's not just about the influence of the religion itself, but the actions that were made in the name of the religion.
00:10:16
John Gartside
Christianity, Judaism, Islam yeah
00:10:29
John Gartside
Yeah, I suppose, yeah.
00:10:29
df
So, you know, the conquest of America by Columbus and the Spanish in the name of Christianity.
00:10:37
df
many, many wars, war hell in the name Christianity, in name of Islam, the name of many religions. But I think we've mentioned San Francisco before and we mentioned America.
00:10:45
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:10:46
df
And before we were on camera, was sort saying that America perhaps wouldn't have that number one city because of its recent history and as a nation, but also because it's sort of discovering
00:10:54
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:11:01
df
was done in such a way that we've lost a lot of information. So the Incas, the Aztecs, obviously very advanced civilizations, But, you know, we don't really know as much about them as we do about Athens, for example, Rome or Paris or Berlin, simply because, you know, basically the colonizers led by, so, you know, Hernán Cortés and Pizarro and Columbus and all these, you know, leaders of the Armadas sort of burnt lot of information to the ground and, you know,
00:11:33
df
And for that reason, actually, talking about burning the ground, I'll make another proposition, Alexandria, a city of tremendous importance to nation Egypt, sort of
00:11:39
John Gartside
Oh, yes.
00:11:43
df
Library of Alexandria being the most comprehensive library ever built, really. Having a tremendous, vast amount of knowledge that now, unfortunately, is lost. Information that could explain how a civilization so long ago was able to build pyramids, the Valley of the Kings, and all these very impressive temples. But I think also need to look even further back.
00:12:07
df
Look at the Mesopotamians.
00:12:07
John Gartside
Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
00:12:09
df
And one city that actually, two actually that sort of pop in my mind, and number one is Babylon, the Hanging Gardens of Babylon. But more so than Babylon is the city of Uruk in modern-day Iraq.
00:12:21
df
And the city of Uruk is sort of famous for a couple of reasons. It's the home of the King Gilgamesh, the Epic of Gilgamesh, one of the most famous books of all time. But also it's seen as the first place that writing was invented the first place we've discovered writing from on clay tablets.
00:12:39
df
And, you know, obviously writing, John, has had a huge impact on our lives.
00:12:44
John Gartside
there.
00:12:45
df
And Uruk was really this megacity, was one of the first megacities that had 50,000 people. So if we imagine back in ancient times, you'd have your sort village with 100 people maximum, really.
00:12:55
df
But Uruk was this massive city with 50,000 people in the Mesopotamian region, Moknei, Iraq. So it was really a birthplace of culture. It really culture really flourished, writing flourished.
00:13:08
df
Also traditions such as
Asian and Colonial Trade Hub Contributions
00:13:09
df
pottery flourished in Uruk and the pottery wheel is another invention of the time. But looking more to the modern age, where do you think there's been a profound impact on history the last two, three hundred years?
00:13:23
John Gartside
Well, actually, it's a bit further beyond than the last two, 300 years. I think I'll get, I'll mention the last two, 300 years in a second. But initially, when you were just saying about the impact of Mesopotamia and Babylon, upon writing, I thought of a very influential German city.
00:13:41
John Gartside
One that I don't think many would usually think of, but Manz, the place where obviously Johannes Gutenberg discovered the printing press in the mid 15th century.
00:13:50
df
Yes.
00:14:05
John Gartside
It allowed all those perhaps those ideas amongst the intellectual histories of Rome and Greece to be transported. And one could say that they actually sort of led to a fundamental change in human life, the invention of the printing press.
00:14:20
John Gartside
It enabled religious history to be spread, intellectual history to be spread, political history equally. And I think the transmission of ideas does actually put man's, in my opinion, as being definitely amongst one of the most important cities in the world.
00:14:37
John Gartside
simply because of the invention of the printing press there. But I think in the last two, three hundred years, there's a few cities in my mind that sort of dominate it.
00:14:47
John Gartside
I think one has to recognise the role of the USA in the last two, three hundred years, rising global superpower, perhaps based upon Washington, D.C.
00:14:51
df
Yeah.
00:14:55
John Gartside
and New York. Really from obviously as many historians discuss from World War I, but in particular from World War II, the USA emerged the world's leading power, the Cold War following it. Fought between two very historically important cities, Washington DC and Moscow, were the two separate bases of power, but actually in the middle you had Berlin, I suppose, historical city which I think is very important because it actually symbolized the conflicts, the battleground of differing ideologies, differing spheres of influence. And as a city, Berlin still architecturally represents that conflict between East and West Germany, conflict which actually had global historical importance amidst the Cold War.
00:15:45
John Gartside
So think the states one has to recognize as being just fundamental to the last two, 300 years of human history since the American Revolution, where once a huge intellectual political shift away from such ideas like colonization.
00:15:50
df
Thank you.
00:15:59
John Gartside
or being a colony to sort of supposedly wanting to come against tyrannist kings towards, I suppose, steps towards democracy in a way, limited, very much limited initially, but Philadelphia for the American Revolution was very historically important as a city.
00:16:21
John Gartside
I think one era of the world which is often undermined and forgotten in world history is the Far East or even the Indian subcontinent. An interesting fact I always sort like to remind myself of is that until the 18th century, China produced, I think, over half of the world's GDP.
00:16:41
df
Yeah.
00:16:42
John Gartside
Similarly, there's a circle one can draw between around southern China, India and Southeast Asia. And that circle of that region of the world represents the majority of the global world's GDP, pretty much throughout human history. The importance of cities like Shanghai, similarly Delhi, Mumbai,
00:17:05
John Gartside
whilst also Jakarta, Singapore can be sort of demonstrated by how these were the hub of economic colonisation. The Opium Wars by Britain or their initial attempts to gain a foothold in India were purely economically motivated. Similarly, Jakarta, the base of the VOC, which was the Dutch East India Company, the Dutch East India Company was revolutionary in what it did. inspired, obviously, the British East India Company. But initially, the Dutch East India Company was the leading economic powerhouse of the world, which aimed to colonize the Dutch East Indies for aims of exporting nutmeg.
00:17:48
John Gartside
initially, and other spices, these spices which were more valuable than gold. So I think when you look at economic history, you can obviously, as I said earlier on, think of Manchester or Silicon Valley now as places as being fundamental to almost revolutions in the global economy. But when looking at trade, the cities of Southeast Asia and the Far East are extremely important. Jakarta being an extremely desirable global city for trade amongst the age of discovery. And then cities like Shanghai, Mumbai, New Delhi,
00:18:27
John Gartside
and other cities across Asia have always been base of the global economy and world trade. What do you think, Diane?
00:18:35
John Gartside
You can look at it sort of economically, but are there perhaps any cities that we've forgotten? Perhaps cities in South America Africa, have great importance, but can easily be forgotten?
00:18:44
df
Yeah.
00:18:47
df
Yeah, I think definitely I'll start with Latin America because that's the area I'm a bit more well-versed in, to be very honest with everyone here.
00:18:50
John Gartside
Oh, yeah.
00:18:54
df
There's a couple of cities that definitely spring to mind. Number one being Cusco, where it's the site of Machu Picchu as well.
00:19:01
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:19:02
df
Cusco in Peru was the sort of home, sort of cultural home of the Incas, one of the major empires in Latin America, but also a place of very sort of cultural importance due to obviously the conquest by Spain and sort of, frankly, the crimes that were committed there. But also in modern history, if we look at, for example, people familiar with communism, Cusco was actually one of the main catalysts for the conversion of Ernesto Che Guevara into communism after seeing the treatment of the local autochthonous population there.
00:19:44
df
The biggest city in Latin America throughout really was Mexico City, founded the 14th century by the Aztecs, was the capital of the Aztec Empire.
00:19:56
df
And it was conquered in the 16th century and was transformed into modern day Mexico City. But it was a very, very wealthy sort of metropolis.
00:20:08
df
And it one of the most advanced cities in the world. I think we stopped sort giving enough credit to Latin America because of the fact that a lot of it was destroyed. of the knowledge, lot of the information was destroyed during sort period of conquest by the conquistadors from Spain.
00:20:27
df
But Cusco and Mexico cities are definitely very, very important hubs of knowledge and culture. The third one being Lima, it's also known as the City of Kings, modern-day capital of Peru. And that is where the Spanish conquistador Francisco Pizarro, who also conquered Cusco, chose as the administrative center of his sort of South American empire.
00:20:53
df
And this is due to the fact that I had a lot of connections to gold and silver. So again, talking about that economic history, Lima is truly one of those cities that is up there in the terms of economic importance for Europe because a lot of gold was brought from Latin America, but also other stuff.
00:21:13
df
potatoes, tomatoes, a lot of our food culture, culinary culture was brought from Latin America from these parts.
00:21:15
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:21:21
df
Now in Africa, another city that comes to mind is Carthage, the ancient city of Carthage, famous for its battles with Rome and Hannibal Barker being this very strong general.
00:21:35
df
Apart from that, we look at sort of Morocco, modern-day Morocco, Marrakesh, Casablanca, these very important cultural cities as well for their role in, you know, sort of the initial conquest of Spain by the Moors, but also...
00:21:55
df
its importance lately in history. Morocco, notably, was the place from where the nationalist troops led by Francisco Franco started out in their conquest of Spain in the 1930s during the Spanish Civil War.
00:22:09
df
You've mentioned Cape Town, but I think there's obviously vast amount of cities that sort of the horn of Africa and in those sort of...
00:22:19
df
points that allow access to the sea that are hugely important for economic and cultural reasons. I think now, before we end, it'd be nice if we could just do run through each continent and sort of say the most important city.
00:22:30
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:22:34
df
And I'm going split North and South America for ease. So, John, what would you say is the most important point city historically in Northern America, including Mexico and everything else.
00:22:46
John Gartside
I'll quickly say just a sort of quick disclaimer before we say this. There are many more that we haven't mentioned. And actually, as this discussion's going on, I think every city is so historically important.
00:22:58
John Gartside
So it's not to sort of undermine or diminish the role of any, but there are so many which are historically important. But to pick one for North America for me,
00:23:09
John Gartside
I would look, I think there's two in my head, I'd be stuck between Washington DC for its political importance.
00:23:15
df
Yeah. Interesting.
00:23:16
John Gartside
But I'd actually probably for San Francisco and just for the scientific revolution which it led to. particular, thinking of the internet.
00:23:30
John Gartside
something which sort of all those companies, Apple, Google, are based around. And if it were not for those cities, you can see how they fundamentally changed the way humans live. This very platform that we're using now, podcasting.
00:23:44
John Gartside
the spread of information, that is only possible due to the internet. So I think the internet's role economically, politically, intellectually, religiously, it covers every part of human history, the internet. So I'd say San Francisco as perhaps sort of one could say the focal point of the internet revolution of the 21st or century.
00:24:06
df
Yeah, I'd choose just for a bit of variety, I'll choose Mexico City for its sort role in the Aztec Empire, was the biggest city of the Aztec Empire, its capital. And it was also the primarious religious site.
00:24:18
df
But I think, you know, so much more is to discover about Mexico City also from a cultural point. You know, had some famous artists, Diego Rivera, Frida Kahlo, who sort of made Mexico City their sort base.
00:24:31
df
And so I'll choose that. What about Latin America?
00:24:35
John Gartside
Oh, also perhaps a group Latin America in the South then.
Religious and Intellectual Significance of Jerusalem and Baghdad
00:24:40
John Gartside
I think you made a really interesting point about Lima and it's a city I don't know much about, but I'd say that Lima, Peru then, yeah. Right.
00:24:48
df
choose, again, just for variety, I'll choose Cusco, the ancient capital of the Incas, and actually one of the oldest, I think actually is the oldest inhabited city in the Americas throughout history. Very important place just for its sort of exploration of the Incas, Machu Picchu as well, one of the ancient ones of the world, but also its...
00:25:14
df
architecture, but also its legacy as a city of colonization and what that can do to the world. Moving on now Africa.
00:25:22
John Gartside
Oh yeah. I find Cape Town a really interesting city historically. Not only you have such a rich history in the modern sense of Nelson Mandela, perhaps based around that, but also just economically for trade, a huge key parts of the British empire, not only for as a trade,
00:25:42
John Gartside
a stopover almost, but later expansion into diamonds with De Beers and other parts. So I think Cape Town really strikes out to me as an economic place, but also perhaps sort of modern political importance.
00:25:55
John Gartside
But then similarly, think Egypt has such a fascinating rich history.
00:25:59
df
Yeah.
00:26:02
John Gartside
Yeah, I mean, equally, one can make the case for Libya. Is it Tripoli, the capital of Libya, with a really fascinating modern history?
00:26:08
df
Yes.
00:26:11
John Gartside
Where would you say, Diane?
00:26:12
df
I'd probably pick Alexandria or Cairo.
00:26:15
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:26:15
df
It's difficult to pick between the two, but definitely an Egyptian city for me. Again, that philosophical importance, that thought importance, And that knowledge, that sort of Cairo actually sprung and sort of Luxor and everything around Egypt.
00:26:31
df
It's very hard to pick one city, but it'd be one of those. I think let's do the Middle East as separate place because of its huge importance, really.
00:26:38
df
I mean, there's so many, so many places there. Which would you choose, John?
00:26:43
John Gartside
Oh, for the Middle East, I find that really interesting.
00:26:46
John Gartside
I mean, it matters what lens you take. So you've got that religious importance for the Middle East that you mentioned there. So perhaps, yeah, perhaps that. Yeah, perhaps that. But then you've got cities like, don't know, Tel Aviv, which have had immense importance recently.
00:27:01
John Gartside
But I'd probably say just a group, sort of Jerusalem or somewhere like that. Fundamental impacts and changes have come about in human history from them in a religious sense, which fascinating.
00:27:06
df
Yes.
00:27:13
df
Yeah, I think that's fair answer and probably what would have gone for as well. But to give an alternative, I'll choose Baghdad for its importance in the...
00:27:23
df
a big philosophical sense of the world. The Library of Baghdad in the Islamic Caliphate in the 7th century was one of the most important cradles of knowledge and one of the most well-known scholarly cities.
00:27:36
John Gartside
For Asia, my mind goes to China, the centre of so much of the world's history, politically, economically, a huge religious intellectual
Political and Technological Legacies of Asian Cities
00:27:45
John Gartside
importance. I'd probably go for Beijing, the capital of China.
00:27:49
John Gartside
perhaps Shanghai, mean Shanghai has always been the sort of economic hub of China, but I think Beijing as this political, as almost the national, as the capital of China, is such a fascinating city.
00:28:02
John Gartside
A city I'd love to visit one day, because I think it's the bed of so much rich political, and military history from China. But similarly, I think you can make a very compelling case for Hong Kong as it's sort of, as it being a remnant of empire and simply of great historical importance. Where would you go for an Asia, Diane?
00:28:26
df
I think probably Beijing as well. But as always, I try and come up with alternative and actually something that really impressed me.
00:28:27
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:28:32
df
I don't know a lot about, but we've spoken about Japan in episode with the story and Chris Harding previously, which I highly recommend.
00:28:36
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:28:39
df
And I'll probably pick Kyoto or Tokyo.
00:28:42
John Gartside
Yeah. Yeah.
00:28:42
df
For a couple of reasons. But, you know, number one, I think, is this sort of fascination that people have had with the Japanese culture, Japanese religion, shinsuism, but also this sort of art of the samurais, the samurais and this code of honour by Japan.
00:28:57
df
But also we can't ignore the sort of technological advancements have come out of Japan and the huge sort of, you know, Tokyo being a city that people say is 50 years in the future compared to everyone else.
00:29:07
df
So would pick Tokyo, I think.
00:29:10
John Gartside
Yeah, I think there's a really compelling case for Tokyo is important since the Meiji revolution, which is in 1868. And when Tokyo restored the emperor, Japan restored the emperor, the emperor Meiji. And then that emperor set about a plan of huge advancements across Japanese society which propelled it into being an imperial power. And then from that point, obviously led to World War but then that sort of technological and economic reconstruction of Japan, companies like Panasonic, is really interesting.
00:29:45
John Gartside
to sort of perhaps then final area day and then we've got europe which will go last but to think of sort of ocean or perhaps that uh southeast asia where would you think that yeah oh yeah
00:29:54
df
Yeah.
00:29:57
df
think it's very, very difficult. Again, huge range of cities, probably pick Manila. I'll pick Manila for its role in sort of as a colony as well, but the colony has managed to fight and win its independence back in the sort of domino effect that has had on Spanish society and
00:30:12
John Gartside
oh yeah
00:30:23
df
You know, one of, if we look closely at Francisco Franco's life, him seeing sort of ships coming back from the defeated Philippines is one of the most important and sort most dramatic moments in his life that actually sort propelled him to become the dictator he was.
00:30:39
df
But another city maybe in that region would be somewhere like Sydney or Melbourne. one of the major Australian cities of the day, again, for their economic importance in the region. But also Australia, for me, has always been a fascinating place. taking, you being a colony of prisoners initially.
00:30:59
df
And I think a very compelling case as to why prisoners should be integrated in society and not chained up in a two by two jail cell, because Australia is now one of the most developed and forward countries out there.
00:31:17
John Gartside
Yeah, I found Manila, that's a really interesting example. I think obviously from the US Spanish War it was the turn of the 20th century, about 1900, really interesting, became a US colony effectively. Then a really interesting role in World War II, becoming independent. And then actually dictator I've always found really fascinating is Ferdinand Marcos Jr.
00:31:41
df
Yeah.
00:31:59
John Gartside
Similarly, following on from that idea of a place which has had a dictator in the 1960s and Sukarno in Indonesia, in particular Jakarta.
00:32:11
df
Thank
00:32:11
John Gartside
Jakarta also in my mind being this hub of economic activity in Southeast Asia. especially from that 16th to So not only then was of great economic importance, but then that transitioned all the way through to the Second World War, when it was a Dutch colony, then it's War of Independence. And then later after that, I think Sukarnu, fascinating historical figure, fascinating dictator, who interestingly, I remember there was a quote by Rory Stewart, who was working as a diplomat there at the time in Jakarta, who said that the day that Sukarnu fell from power, no one was expecting.
00:32:55
John Gartside
but someone who's sort really interesting when looking at sort of an economic, political
Enduring Influence of Rome and Athens
00:32:59
John Gartside
sense. Finally, Diane, the place in which we're both situated, Europe. Which city in Europe would you say is the most important?
00:33:08
df
For me, it's a very hard decision between two cities. I've managed to cut it down to two. And those are both of ancient cities, Athens and Rome. And I'll say exactly why.
00:33:20
df
Rome, I think, has been fascinating for a couple of reasons. Obviously, the Roman Empire, that military history, that political prowess, people like Caesar, Augustus,
00:33:32
df
Many other emperors, Cicero, just a senator, but also someone with huge influence of Thor, Marx, Aurelius, Seneca, Nero. But Rome didn't stop there and it kept going. And you have the sort Vatican City, the Catholic Church, all the good and the bad that has come from the Catholic Church for our history.
00:33:54
df
And then looking now, only do you have still the papacy seat in the Vatican, which is in Rome, but also some Second World War fascism, Mussolini, and starting that movement.
00:34:06
df
I think Rome is probably... the eternal city. And for that, it probably has to be Rome for me. But a very, very close second is Athens for its role in the ancient world the hub.
00:34:19
df
I know we've used that word a lot, but truly think Athens is a hub of philosophical knowledge. Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Diogenes, Zenon, the Stoics, the Cynics, every single thing know, there's a famous quote, I know about who, that says that all of modern philosophy is but a footnote to Plato. And I find that to be very true. And for that, Athens has to be up there as well. But also you have that military history. Aristotle taught Alexander the Great, after all. And Alexander was the man that everyone was chasing for.
00:34:53
df
But because of that continuous history across thousands and thousands of years, for me, Rome has to take the edge.
London's Continuous Global Importance
00:35:02
John Gartside
For me, I think to conclude, would say London.
00:35:05
John Gartside
I think London not only does it have, I think, you know, primarily as this is, it is a very subjective discussion. I'm very interested in some empire, obviously London being the seat of the centre of the British Empire, but also I think you could make a compelling case economically, having sort sustained economic importance London Europe today.
00:35:27
John Gartside
But intellectually, there's been a fairly significant contribution from the arts based in London, So I'd probably say London. think part of my judgment for London would be its continued importance today sort of continued importance in Europe for the two, three hundred years. But mean, this is a great discussion and Dan at the start, you raised a very good sort point of how it's a good discussion for a dinner table this.
00:35:55
df
Yeah.
00:35:55
John Gartside
because there is no right answer at all. And you can learn and discover so much like I have, you have across this episode. So it's a great dinner table discussion because I think we're both sure we've probably missed so many cities that are important.
00:36:09
df
Definitely.
00:36:12
John Gartside
But it's a great
Conclusion and Invitation to Engage
00:36:13
John Gartside
discussion to have. And it sort of gets you thinking, I think, about all these different strands of history and actually how fundamental so many different places have been.
00:36:24
df
Indeed. Thank you everyone for listening. If you've enjoyed this episode, please do go back. We have some really amazing episodes on different places. The one that comes to mind is Japan with Chris Harding.
00:36:36
John Gartside
you go.
00:36:37
df
Something that I will be doing over the summer is getting in a bit more in a couple of different regions. And for me, the two regions that I'm definitely going to try and get my teeth in this summer are Latin America and the Middle East.
00:36:49
df
And I'm sure throughout the next couple of months, we'll update you on our progress in discovering the world from the sort of philosophical, literary and cultural perspective.
00:37:00
df
But thank you, everyone. If you've enjoyed the episode, do leave us comment, a like, and share it with your friends and family. I'm sure if anyone is in doubt of what to talk about over a dinner table, this is the perfect episode to send to them.
00:37:15
df
And until then, we'll see you next week.
00:37:18
John Gartside
See you then.