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Ep. 12: Finding Hope and Living with Grief After Trauma in Your Teens. With Mark Lemon.
147 Plays4 years ago
If your child has experienced the loss of a parent, or someone very close to them, I hope this episode will help. My guest in this episode is Mark Lemon, an award-winning children’s author who talks openly about his own grief after the murder of his Dad.
A bit about Mark Lemon
Mark is the host of the brilliant podcast, Grief is My Superpower, where he chats with his guests about their losses, in the hope of helping children and families come to terms with their own bereavements, and find a way through sadness.
He has also turned his own tragedy into a massive positive, by writing The Magical Wood, a book for bereaved children. The book has recently received recognition from Prince Harry, who was just 12 – the same age as Mark - when his mother Diana also died in shocking circumstances.
We discussed:
The article Mark wrote for The Guardian that was to be the beginning of his advocacy for bereaved children, and ultimately the drive towards his award winning book.
How Mark has opened up his social channels to allow his followers a place to see his sadness, and to share their own.
What happened to Mark’s father, and how the death of a parent can shatter a child’s world.
How teenagers often box up their emotions, finding it difficult to open up, and how important it is to support them to do that, rather than grief being channelled in more troubled ways.
How important it is for teachers and parents to support children through tricky behaviours while they're processing trauma.
How Mark has coped with trauma and grief - finding purpose through passion, and a career in music. How doing things they love can help a reluctant teen to find purpose and to start to talk about their feelings.
How important it was for Mark to step away from his father’s murderer, rather than dwelling on anger and revenge.
Mark also told me that you never really get rid of grief - have a listen to his brilliant way of describing how his own grief differs day to day, and how he manages that.
Where to connect with Mark
- Instagram @marklemonofficial
- Twitter @lemondropbooks
- Mark's website Lemon Drop Books
You can also now buy The Magical Wood as an audiobook, with £2 from each sale going to palliative, neurological and bereavement support charity, Sue Ryder.
Support for bereaved children
- Cruse Bereavement Care
- Winston’s Wish, for which Mark is an ambassador.
More teen mental health resources
Thank you so much for listening! Subscribe now to the Teenage Kicks podcast to hear all my new episodes. I'll be talking to some fabulous guests about difficult things that happened to them as teenagers - including overcoming a stammer, becoming a young carer, and being hospitalised with mental health problems - and how they overcame things to move on with their lives.
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Transcript
A Personal Tragedy Unveiled
00:00:00
Speaker
And then my aunt sort of said, oh, your mum wants to see you upstairs. And I went upstairs and she said, dad died this morning.
Podcast Mission and Guest Introduction
00:00:12
Speaker
Welcome to the Teenage Kicks podcast, where we take the fear out of parenting or becoming a teenager. Every week I talk to someone who's been through something difficult as a teenager, but come out the other side in a good place and has made a real success of their life.
00:00:29
Speaker
If your child has experienced the loss of a parent or someone very close to them, I hope this episode will help. My guest today is Mark Lemon, an award-winning children's author who talks openly about his own grief after the murder of his dad. And the big message is that it never goes away, you know, it's this thing in your life, you know, and I always kind of refer it to like a, you know, the way you wear your grief because, you know, it is like that coat you put on every day.
00:00:59
Speaker
Mark is the host of the brilliant podcast Grief Is My Superpower, where he chats with his guests about their losses in the hope of helping children and other families come to terms with their own bereavements and find a way through sadness.
Royal Recognition and Beginnings
00:01:15
Speaker
He's also turned his own tragedy into a massive positive by writing The Magical Wood, a book for bereaved children. The book has recently received recognition from Prince Harry, who was just 12, the same age as Mark, when his mother Diana also died in shocking circumstances. Mark, welcome to the podcast. Getting that letter from Prince Harry must have been a goosebumps kind of moment.
00:01:42
Speaker
it was a goosebumps kind of moment yeah it was one of those sort of uh you know when you write letters to uh to the royal family and you don't normally expect a reply um so yeah to be handed that letter by the postman um and you see like the the royal crest on it and you're like oh okay this this letter looks a bit different um and yeah and then you open it and you and you read it and you you know it's just uh
00:02:07
Speaker
Yeah, brilliant moment. You know, it's just lovely to know that the book has reached so many people, but obviously that it's lovely that it's on their bookshelf. Yeah. Oh my God. Imagine.
Opening Conversations on Grief
00:02:20
Speaker
I can't imagine that. That does sound amazing. It's just sitting on their bookshelf. That's a brilliant image. And have you done any work with their charity as heads together? Isn't it? I know it's an adult charity, but have you done anything with them?
00:02:35
Speaker
No, I haven't, I haven't, but I think it is something that I would like to do, so it could be another on the list thing to do this year, hopefully. Yeah, amazing. Well, you've got a contact now, you've got an in. Yeah, that'd be brilliant. Wouldn't it? Yeah. I'm going to ask you later what's on the cards for future work, because it's all just so important what you're doing.
00:02:59
Speaker
and that's why I really really wanted to talk to you when I heard you speak about losing your dad in the way that you did. I know that's not how most children who lose a parent will lose their father or their mum but I do think there's a massive lack of personal anecdotal stories really for other families to listen to to feel like they're not alone. Is that why you started what you're doing?
00:03:30
Speaker
Yeah, it was. Whenever I talk about this, it's always to do with the article I wrote for The Guardian three or four years ago now. Before that, I would never talk about my grief. I'd locked it inside and I decided that maybe it was just something that
00:03:49
Speaker
I'd always battled with for the rest of my life and I didn't express it and all that stuff. But writing that article really made me dig into what happened to my dad. And it was quite a cathartic thing to do. But it also, because it was sort of national, it opened up conversations with a lot of other people who've experienced the same thing. And it quickly made me realize that this conversation is one that a lot of people
00:04:17
Speaker
don't want to have, you know, and it's that taboo thing of talking about grief, talking about death, you know, and I remember, you know, as a child, you know, if there were funerals, you wouldn't generally go, it would be the adult thing to do. Yes, that's right. And, you know, and so with that said, it kind of gives that, there's that barrier there between
00:04:38
Speaker
the conversation you know which is like well we can't talk about that with a child or we can't so when so when a child experiences death or experiences you know childhood trauma they're then presented with this oh i don't really know about this i don't know how to deal with this i don't you know um yeah i mean things have come on a lot obviously in the last few years with amazing charities out there um to be able to support children but
00:05:04
Speaker
Yeah, it kind of had a lot of messages from
Impact of Childhood Trauma
00:05:06
Speaker
people saying, oh, you know, I've experienced the same thing. And I'm so pleased that you're doing it. And I guess that's why on my Instagram now, you know, I do talk about it a lot. And I, you know, even if it's just a quote of how I'm feeling, you know, and sharing that with somebody else, then, you know, just that that one or two people that it can reach or help is really important.
00:05:29
Speaker
Yeah I think you're right things have changed so much and I think parenting styles have changed a lot as well and I do think that that was a real generational thing that you split children away from sadness and tragedy.
00:05:46
Speaker
And I suppose they hoped that it would all go over our heads. I mean I remember being nine when my first grandparent died and I know nothing about it. I was shipped off to a friend's house where I used their piano to play really mournful tunes because I was kind of feeling like maybe there was something sad going on but that was all I knew about it and that was just my grandfather. So I can't imagine how it feels
00:06:12
Speaker
to lose a parent at that young age. So you were just 12 before you kind of, I'm going to ask you to tell me the story and I know you're okay talking about it, but can you tell me a little bit about your dad and what life was like growing up before this happened?
00:06:32
Speaker
Yeah, I mean we had a normal family life. I had two sisters, we lived in inner city Cambridge in a lovely little close, you know, lots of kids around, summers were great because we just had space to play in. My relationship with my dad was fantastic and he took me to play football and we went to play tennis together and all of these sorts of things. It was very, you know, I guess
00:06:56
Speaker
father and son relationship. Um, he was a lot of fun. Um, and yeah, it was kind of, it was just your normal happy life, I guess, you know, as, as far as I can remember it. Um, so yeah, like, like anyone out there who's experienced this sort of thing, you know, it's all of a sudden it's like sledgehammer of your world just shattering into, into, into pieces. And, um, it was, it was a, it was a lovely childhood. Yeah.
00:07:25
Speaker
Yeah. So Sledgehammer, shattering into oblivion, I would think, what can you get into talking about what happened to your dad and tell us, for my listeners, how things transpired? Yeah. So 12th of May, 1992, I was at school around three o'clock.
00:07:53
Speaker
The school bell rang about 10 past three, quarter past three and I saw a teacher come into the class that I was in. She went over to the teacher and said, you know, they sort of whispered. She came over and said, oh, your mum wants you to go home urgently. So, so I thought it was strange, you know, grabbed my bag, went to get my bike. My bike was already locked to my friends, so I had to quickly run back and get him to come and unlock it.
00:08:16
Speaker
and then from then I just cycled home as fast as I could but you know I always say on that cycle home I sort of had that sense that something awful had happened and as I came into the close where we lived I saw a couple of police cars near the car park bit where the cars were parked up and as I walked down the path I could hear my sister crying in the front living room and sort of looked through the
00:08:41
Speaker
the front window and saw these different people I'd never seen before and strangers. And then my aunt sort of said, oh, your mum wants to see you upstairs. And I went upstairs and she said, dad died this morning. And yeah, like I said earlier, it's sort of that sledgehammer of your world just falling apart, crumbling. And from
Experiencing Loss as a Child
00:09:05
Speaker
then onwards, your life changes forever. And
00:09:11
Speaker
then after that I wanted to get out of the house, I couldn't stay there, it was too strange, I cycled to school and I saw a friend and I collapsed and cried and then I got taken into the school by one of the teachers and then after that I went back to a friend's house after school and then I eventually went back home at about seven in the evening and my uncle sat me down and told me how my dad had died but not in full details but in a sense of what had kind of happened and
00:09:39
Speaker
So yeah in terms of the story we had a cleaner who eventually became sort of a friend of the family But she was going through a very difficult I guess end of a relationship but divorce and he was very jealous and he'd be checking her post and her mail to see if she was having an affair and So she had her mail Directed to our house and then we would go and
00:10:05
Speaker
Give it to her other houses that she was cleaning out or she collected when she came to see us and Yeah, she was at a house in a village called histone outside the Cambridge cleaning and my dad went over to give her her post and then the husband had followed her to the house where she was and was sort of spying on her essentially and turned up and saw my dad's red sports car outside and and
00:10:34
Speaker
thought he put two and two together went to a local supermarket and stole a boning knife and then he went back to the house and I believe he went round the back and they were in the kitchen having a coffee and he walked in and they had a fight and by all accounts my dad got the better of him and then went to get his briefcase and the man sort of stabbed him
00:10:56
Speaker
in the heart and then in the chest again and from the coroner's report they say that my dad would have died immediately.
00:11:06
Speaker
but then he decided to turn around and stab him a further 15 times and turned on his wife and stabbed her twice but she managed to to get out of the house and then he I think he buried the knife in the garden to sort of try and hide pretend that nothing had happened and then the police sort of caught up with him you know he only got four years
00:11:31
Speaker
and I found out through a Channel 4 documentary that that side of the family decided to do. We didn't want to take part in it so that's why but we obviously we watched it and and then at the end they sort of said that he was out and I was about 16 at the time and so obviously my mum didn't want to tell me she wanted to shield it from me because of you know because of my reaction I guess you know so yeah that that
Managing Grief Through Expression
00:12:00
Speaker
in a nutshell that's kind of what happened but you know what that story had been locked in my mind for a very long time in terms of me not wanting to talk about it not wanting to share about it you know the only time that I would probably really acknowledge my feelings would be on the day that he died you know on the 12th of May every year so yeah
00:12:24
Speaker
I mean, Mark, I don't even know where to begin to ask you questions about that story. So it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that you found it impossible to talk about. I mean, where do you even begin with a story like that, especially if you're the age that you were? Yeah.
00:12:51
Speaker
And I think that's why I do the work that I do now with writing the magical word and creating the podcast and opening up the conversation because I know how hard it can be when you've experienced a trauma like that or the death of a loved one to actually open up because
00:13:10
Speaker
fear is when you do open up you're going to open that Pandora's box and you know that's when you know the pain will really hit and um and the big message is it never goes away you know it's this thing in your life you know and I always kind of refer it to like a
00:13:27
Speaker
you know the way you wear your grief because you know it is like that coat you put on every day and you could either choose to take it off on the lighter days when you're feeling okay or on the heavier days when you're not feeling okay you know it's all right to keep wearing it and embrace the feelings that you're having and
00:13:46
Speaker
that is kind of why I do what I do now really is to to say look you know I've been there I know I felt your pain I've you know I've walked in your shoes and um but it's okay to feel how you're feeling you know yeah yeah yeah so I I do want to explore that a little bit later on but I'd like to know how how are you even able to remember how the pain manifested when you were that young age
00:14:17
Speaker
hmm yeah i think i think i kind of locked it inside a bit and and you know there's only one way for that to go and that is kind of pent up aggression and and anger and so yeah when i was a teenager because you know i just started secondary school yeah and so you know to start secondary school and you know just becoming a teenager because i was you know obviously 12 and then into 13
00:14:43
Speaker
it's it's bloody hard anyway yeah well i mean that's a massive transition anyway i've put two of my kids through going from year six to year seven and even that as a parent that was overwhelming so as a kid you know i mean i i get that feeling now that i remember leaving primary school going into session yeah i do feeling that you have yeah so we all have it don't we we remember but um yeah to sort of at the end of my
00:15:06
Speaker
year seven I guess they call it now to experience that sort of life-changing trauma in a sense my secondary school days were like a write-off you know that's the way I see it but don't get me wrong I had a you know I had a nice time there were lots of lovely people there but
00:15:23
Speaker
You change forever. You're an outlook. You're cross at the world. How could this happen to me? Yeah, totally. Why? Yeah, why? I've lost my role model, this guy that I love more than anything on earth, and then they're gone. And due to somebody else's
00:15:42
Speaker
Jealousy and all that stuff and you couldn't control that So yeah, I kind of so, you know, I I got into fights and things like that and and but my teachers were fantastic and they were amazing and they were really supportive and they I think they saw in me that that wasn't me, you know, that wasn't the person that I am, you know
00:16:04
Speaker
this is where I had channeled my grief in a sense and my emotions and my feelings and so you know yeah it's quite it's a strange one because I
00:16:16
Speaker
Everyone would be like, really? You? You did that? You got into fights with older children? You were that person. I was that person. And my wife tells me all the time, she was like, you have to remember the trauma that you went through and you have to be...
00:16:34
Speaker
You have to be kind to yourself. You have to remember. A lot of people just forget these things. If there's a young person that's listened to this and they're going through really shit time, you need to check yourself and say, listen, what have you just gone through? And forgive the things that you don't like about yourself and the things that you've done that you don't approve of yourself and just be really forgiving of that.
00:17:00
Speaker
it all comes from somewhere, you know, you don't just wake up in the morning and you're across, you know, it's like, just really think about that. Yeah. Do you think, because I've heard this before from people that when they've experienced a trauma as a teenager, I think, as you said, they've boxed it up, compartmentalised it and kind of put it aside in the back of their mind as something that happened that they can't change.
00:17:25
Speaker
And that therefore there's no point thinking about it, you've just got to move on. And yet I kind of visualise that box in the back of your head as this steaming mess of snakes and flames and anger. Of course you can't contain that without some kind of pain. And so it's going to come out somewhere along the line. Do you feel like that makes sense?
00:17:50
Speaker
Absolutely, you know, it's a big thing and it's, you know what, I've talked about it on a podcast I did lately with somebody else and, you know, I love the work that Jamie Oliver has done around obesity and, you know, young people and this country and how it affects so many different layers of young people, but I see the same way with mental health and grief.
00:18:13
Speaker
There are so many children that are suffering from trauma out there. And if it's not dealt with at a young age, if we're not opening up and we're talking about this, you know, we are going to have a lot of children. A bit like myself, you know, I was very lucky to get to a point where I kind of realized I need to talk about this. I need to get this out of myself.
00:18:32
Speaker
But there are a lot of people out there who aren't as lucky and they're walking the streets with these emotions and these strong feelings and they're adults and you know, where does that go? They take it into the workplace. They take it home.
00:18:44
Speaker
to the pub and into relationships yeah into relationships if they're if they're a young
Therapy and Emotional Healing
00:18:50
Speaker
child and we talk about knife crime which is a totally different matter but you know we've got all these young people out there who've experienced trauma but they're putting that emotion somewhere you know they're putting that anger somewhere and how do we deal with that um yeah especially coming out of COVID-19 you know and so so yeah it's kind of it's really important that we kind of raise the subject across
00:19:11
Speaker
the country with MPs, with Parliament, with our Prime Minister, it's like, well, that'd be difficult. Yeah, no, but I totally agree with you. I've said this before, I feel like mental health as a subject should be covered as a core part of the curriculum in secondary schools.
00:19:34
Speaker
and probably younger, I mean you've got more expert knowledge on that younger age, I know, but I know they do, it's PSHE or relationships, they do a lot of that stuff in school and it is really good and I'm really, really impressed with our school.
00:19:50
Speaker
but I don't think they talk a lot about mental health coping strategies and dealing with well as you say trauma because all kids have got it in some form or another lots of them you know they're at different ends of the spectrum but loads of kids
00:20:07
Speaker
have got self-esteem issues, as you say, weight worries, you know, so much, there's so much mental health stuff that just I think gets packaged up and put to one side because it's too difficult to talk about, too difficult to deal with, they haven't got the words, the language, the maturity to know even that they want to talk about it. And so as you say, they become one of those angry adults who then needs to work really hard.
00:20:34
Speaker
to unpackage it and come to terms with it. At what point were you in life when you did realise that you needed to do that? Well I got to, I was 25 years old and I
00:20:47
Speaker
I have a bit of counselling after my dad died, but in some respects it was too soon or it felt too soon. And you have to be in the right space to be able to talk about these emotions. And I think sometimes children, young people, even adults, they're pushed into it too soon. If somebody dies, oh, go and get counselling.
00:21:05
Speaker
No, it doesn't work like that. You have to be in the right space. You have to have been supported in the right way. It's about understanding that that person might not want to talk about it all the time. They might just want an arm around them. And so, yeah, I got to 25 years old and I was like, I'm going to explore counselling. I'm feeling a bit fragile at the moment. And so I went and I phoned a charity called Cruise and I just sat down for about five weeks and talked to a lady about how I was feeling.
00:21:35
Speaker
And yeah, it was great. Firstly, you know, the first one or two counselling sessions that you have are like, wow, there is all this emotion still there, you know, all these feelings. And so, yeah, and then again, I didn't talk about it for ages, but I guess, yeah, like I mentioned earlier, the Guardian article was kind of my own sort of cathartic way of realising that
00:22:03
Speaker
Listen, you know, you need to keep talking about this for yourself and for to try and help sort of other people and make them aware that it's okay to talk about these things. And, you know, in a way how great therapy can be. Because I think there's a stigma around that too. It's like, oh gosh, I couldn't, there must be something wrong with me. Am I mental? You know, do you know what I mean? Am I mental? God has such an old phrase, isn't it? Am I mental? You know, to be having therapy. No, you're not because
00:22:30
Speaker
revisit it, go back. When I turned 40, I was like, okay, I'm going to speak to somebody again. Even if it's just for an hour, just have a chat. And again, you're like, okay, wow. You come out of it as sort of a sense of, you know, a weight is off, but also, okay, well, I didn't see that perspective on how I was feeling.
00:22:49
Speaker
Yes, it gives you a new angle to help you think about how you're going to deal with your own feelings. Because as you say, your feelings never go away, do they? It's just a question of how you channel them, I guess, how you come to terms with them, how you keep them with you and learn to live with them.
Career and Passion as Healing
00:23:10
Speaker
I mean I've had therapy and honestly I think even without trauma it's a valuable thing to do because do you know what sometimes do you not feel like you just want to offload your feelings, your selfish side of the story to somebody who's objective and isn't on anyone else's side you just want to feel heard sometimes. Absolutely, absolutely I mean
00:23:36
Speaker
You know, my wife is revisiting therapy at the moment and she loves it. But, you know, I mean, what's great for her is that she doesn't have to talk to me about it. Exactly. I can't come home and say to my husband, you know what, I am really pissed off because this, because usually it involves something that he's said, done, being involved with. And then he would take that personally and then it becomes a whole other discussion. I just want to go and talk to someone that doesn't know anyone that I know.
00:24:03
Speaker
Yeah. And have them hear me and feel understood.
00:24:08
Speaker
yes yeah you know and so there are children out there who feel like yeah and which is why sometimes you know why do they go home slam the door and close their bedroom door because they don't want to talk to the people that maybe they yeah and why do they get up some of them uh 11 o'clock on a sunday morning and you think well you've had tons of sleep you're fine why are you being so rude this morning because that happens with teenagers and i've learned that
00:24:34
Speaker
You know, when it's when that's the case, there's no turning them around. It's just a question of of tolerating that understanding where it's coming from. They've got their own problems. They don't tell their mum and dad and that's OK. And that they come good again at some point later in the day or if not the next day. And, you know, everybody's got it. I'm just thinking back to when you saying you were 16 when you discovered, I mean, horrific that that guy only spent four years
00:25:04
Speaker
in prison as penance for what he actually did and what he took from you, I'm thinking at 16 you must have had all the anger and all the things that you wanted to say. Did you say any of them to anyone at any point? I don't think I did really, you know. No. And if I remember back I think there was a period of
00:25:26
Speaker
you know when I came out of school I didn't really I went to sort of college for a bit but it wasn't really for me again coming out of school and then going into college and you know as a lot of children do you go from college to uni and all that stuff and all my friends went that path and I was just damaged goods you know and the other thing is that when you've gone through something like that your
00:25:51
Speaker
confidence is so knocked in your self-belief in the world as well as yourself. I just didn't believe in myself. Why? I'm sorry to interrupt you, but why did you not believe in yourself? I think
00:26:08
Speaker
I think because maybe I had that person who was shouting in my corner for so long, you know, even if it was sport, for instance, he'd be there, be shouting, you know, come on, come on. And then all of a sudden it just goes quiet and you don't have that person. And my mum was obviously dealing with her own grief. And don't get me wrong, she was incredible.
00:26:30
Speaker
There is something about having a male figure in your life, you know, I believe. And don't get me wrong, there's lots of incredible mums out there doing both jobs. But for me, it was such a big gap. And so, yeah, I think maybe throughout my school years and all of that stuff, I just lost, I lost interest, you know, lost interest in and passion in life. And so, yeah, at 16, to find out this guy had only got four years was also another blow.
00:26:57
Speaker
You know, it wasn't so for a few years. I you know, I did sort of jobs here and there and stuff like that and then basically I Was 21 so going from the millennium New Year's Eve I went to Thailand with a group of friends and I was out there and I was like
00:27:14
Speaker
But I get back, I need to do something, at least do something that you enjoy, you know. And so I came back and I enjoyed music and singing and I went to do an audition at the London Music School and I did singing basically, so performance. And I went and did an audition and I wasn't expecting to get in and they called me and said, we'd like you to come and
00:27:35
Speaker
and attend and so for me that was like wow okay this could be an opportunity yeah and so i um yes i moved to london um so essentially that was my uni i guess yeah yeah and how would you how would you sorry i didn't ask earlier but how did your exams go did you get the results you wanted needed anyway no not really no no
00:28:00
Speaker
I didn't come away with the best, I guess. I was sort of average in some things, but it's because I hadn't really applied myself properly. And again, I've talked about it so many times with my wife about this. It is incredible how a lot of people have gone through the similar situation and gone through school like that, and they didn't come out with the best grades.
00:28:23
Speaker
you do find the power and the passion to find something you love and when you find that thing you love you hold on to it and you keep going and you can and you succeed and so I think that's kind of what I hold now and it took me a while to think about
00:28:39
Speaker
what has been there inside of me that burns to you know when I do find something I enjoy to succeed at it because somebody said to me you do realize that whenever you end you you know you put yourself into something it generally does really well and I was like I didn't really think about that you kind of move on to the next thing and then the next thing but
00:29:02
Speaker
I think there is because there's that passion inside you to just you know maybe not do it just for me but maybe do it for my dad do it for my mum and just kind of and all that stuff. I love that message I'm constantly telling my kids because they're in a very academic school
00:29:18
Speaker
not to do the subjects that are expected of you to do. If you've got a choice, do the things that you love. Do things that make you happy every day and then find a way to make money out of them. Don't do it just because it's supposed to be the done thing because that's just a path to a miserable life.
00:29:38
Speaker
I think the school system, again, it can be really damaging for children's mental health, young people's mental health. It has that sort of ability to push you down, make you not believe in yourself. It has a lot to answer for in some respects.
00:29:58
Speaker
Yeah. I do understand where they're at. I understand where they're coming from. They're kind of got both hands tied behind their backs with it all. But you know, that's why I think it's important as parents to give your kids the message that, you know, every day needs to be as enjoyable as you can make
Becoming an Author and Supporting Children
00:30:12
Speaker
it. And that doesn't happen if your job is something that you really don't want to be doing. So start with passion, start with something that you love. That's amazing. I love that you did that. Did you complete that whole, that whole course?
00:30:24
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, so the band I was in, we got Band of the Year and we did gigs around London and stuff like that. I think we were the only band at college who sort of went out and did gigs and stuff like that around London.
00:30:39
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And I came away and I ended up doing sort of a session, sort of singing, I guess, on like dance music, house music stuff with some friends. And yeah, so I've found something I really enjoyed and had a couple of songs signed to a couple of record labels. And so those are like little achievements in my life, is that, okay, right. Next, next, next. And then I fell into retail and I managed to shop in Covent Garden, you know. Yeah.
00:31:07
Speaker
which did really well. And so, you know, you sort of have these little focus points and these little achievements in your life that you realise along the way, you know, to sort of pat yourself on the back, you know. And do you feel like sometimes that's your dad? Do you feel like your dad is there seeing all of that? I do. I do. I do. You know, I'm quite a spiritual person, I guess. And I know I do believe that I feel him when he's with me and I get like little shivers and... Yeah.
00:31:37
Speaker
And I do ask questions. I'm sort of in my head. I'm like, should I do this? Does it feel right? Is this the right thing? And, you know, if I hear these little voices saying, yeah, no, good idea. Keep going. Keep sticking with it. You're doing the right thing. You know, I'm like, okay, that must be you. Yeah. Well, that's another form of therapy, isn't it? That's just self-therapy.
00:31:59
Speaker
it's a bit of meditation yeah exactly that that's what I was looking for mindfulness meditation just being aware of who your dad was and how he would be with you now if you were you know exactly that asking yourself questions trying to decide what to do with you with your life
00:32:19
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So tell me a little bit about the work that you do then for the charities, for kids in terms of I'm assuming that mindfulness and coaching and all that kind of stuff all comes into
00:32:36
Speaker
I want to say recovery, but it's not recovery, but coming to terms with living with a tragedy like losing your parent. Tell us about that. Well, so when I was in my old job, I used to commute to Cardiff and back. It'd take me 50 minutes and I thought one day, well, I'm going to write some stories for Otis. Thea was a bit young at the time. She was just a baby, but I thought- These are your children.
00:32:59
Speaker
Yeah, my children. And I started writing stories and I'd get home and I'd read them to him and then I eventually put them in blog form and I put them on Facebook and shared them with friends and they were like, oh, you know, we enjoy these. And so then I decided to hook up with an illustrator and put them into physical copies of books. And so that's when I started writing in a sense of the Otis Lemon and Thea Lemon books.
00:33:23
Speaker
And then I was thinking about my fifth book. What should it be? I'd already started raising proceeds for Winston's Wish, the children's bereavement charity that I'm an ambassador for. And that kind of moved into the next realm of my writing and sort of talking about grief a bit more and thinking about how we can support young children. And if I was going to do that, what would it look like within a book?
00:33:47
Speaker
And so the magical wood has actually done better than all the other books and it's been more popular than the other books because it's so needed. That's the other thing. I talk about the Guardian piece and how it sort of opened up things for me but the magical wood really sort of made me realise that there are children out there who need support.
00:34:06
Speaker
who are in school and they might want a quiet space to read a book, you know, that will help them. Yeah. And so, yeah, that's kind of within the book, there's a couple of blank pages and next to it there are quotes and one is it's okay to feel sad and then the other one is close your eyes and remember someone special. And then that blank page is just there for them to create and do whatever they want, you know, in whatever way they see fit. That's lovely.
00:34:36
Speaker
And now we've just released the audiobook last Friday's just came out and it's available on the website. But again, that's kind of a different tool, a different way for children to just put headphones on and just listen to the story being told with music and stuff. Yeah. And sometimes it is just I think you do just need a little bit of headspace, as it were, to just take time out because it's it must be overwhelming at times. You just feel the need to
00:35:05
Speaker
either let it out or take some time to think about it and think about and develop that resilience if you like I guess yes yeah definitely I mean obviously the podcast again which which I started
Podcasting on Grief and Self-Reflection
00:35:20
Speaker
uh when was it July last year 2019 and um yeah and it's sort of we're 32 episodes in now but again you kind of have to take a break from it you know someone messaged me the other day oh when when you're coming back with more episodes and I just basically said well you know you do need to recharge the grief battery sometimes yes oh that's such a good analogy yes absolutely because you're giving it all out and also working on yourself presumably at the same time
00:35:47
Speaker
Absolutely, you know, you need that space to, you know, like, like, you know, you know, you're talking to people about so many different subjects. And for me, obviously, it's grief, but you're talking about people's personal stories. And, and at the same time, you're taking all of that into yourself. And mainly, I reflect mostly when I'm editing, because I'm listening to the conversations, and I'm listening to maybe the things we talked about more than I am in
00:36:11
Speaker
at that moment because I'm trying to be present as best as I can and have that conversation with them about a subject that's hugely personal. So yeah, you need that time to have a bit of a break, have a bit of a rethink.
00:36:26
Speaker
and yeah and I'm conscious as well of not just bossing out these interviews and then you know I've got to get bum bum bum bum bum done I want to want them to be right and I want them to be you know different sort of um variants of grief and subject I guess yeah well and it's not just work is it it's not just content production it is as you say a very personal thing but also it is a very needed thing and so it needs to be very real
00:36:55
Speaker
yeah definitely yeah and that does get actually that you're right that does get exhausting it is wonderful and i get goosebumps with every every single interview i've had them already today um because you do take on your guest's story you do feel it you do put yourself in their shoes and for you that must be even more intense when it is somebody who because you're specifically talking about grief
00:37:19
Speaker
Yeah. Mark, I'd really like to know if you could go back to either or both that 12 year old boy on the night that he left home and hung out with his mate until and put it off as long as he could. Yeah. Or that 16 year old teenager who must have been absolutely fuming about the unfairness of his life.
00:37:46
Speaker
What would you say to them now with the benefit of hindsight? Yeah, that's fine. I mean, it's funny because I've written a letter to my 12 year old self the day before I found out my dad had died. And yeah, that was that again was a hugely cathartic thing for me to do because it made me
00:38:11
Speaker
go back over all the things i've experienced after my dad died and how i got to that point and i think i would just kind of say everything that i did in that letter was basically listen this thing's going to happen tomorrow or it's happened it's it's hugely traumatic it's life changing it's it's shit um but you're going to get through it you're going to get through it you are going to be sitting
00:38:39
Speaker
sitting with someone in 2020 talking about this subject and sharing with the world your own experience to try and help others and I think again I think also I would just say
00:38:55
Speaker
you know, don't worry about, um, the worries of school, the pressures of school, you know, you are going to come out of it and, um, go on to experience, you know, a career, um, varied careers, um, and, and it's going to be okay. You know, I think it's, it's very difficult obviously for, for that 12 year old or the 16 year old to hear the words, it's going to be okay. But, um,
00:39:25
Speaker
I think I had those in my head anyway. I've always said it's very strange that I've always felt that I've been pushed down a different road. The path, I could have gone in two paths, one bit more troubled, less focused, or one which I chose not to hold the vengeance and the anger towards that man. At an early age,
00:39:54
Speaker
I felt that I was able to cut that string and move on. That's a massively mature thing to do at that age. Which always makes me think, was I pushed towards that by another energy? Because so many people have said to me,
00:40:15
Speaker
I can't believe that you didn't go down a different path to what you did and and I you know obviously when it's yourself you don't even think about it but yeah I had that something inside me was like you can't hold the anger because if you do it's gonna ruin your life and I think that again is the other reason why I sort of talk about this so much and try and help young people is because
00:40:43
Speaker
if you do hold that in then you know it's going to manifest you're going to hold that inside of you and which is why you know I'm so passionate about young people talking about these emotions because because it will help them it can only help them it can only help you otherwise you're you're
Supporting Grieving Children
00:41:02
Speaker
you're setting yourself up for a potential fall in the future. Yeah, totally. So many pieces of advice in there that I think teenagers and their families can dwell on. I'd love to know what your view is on kids who really don't want to talk about it.
00:41:23
Speaker
Because I think that must be really common like you who really do not want to let go of the anger, who really, who parents are struggling to get through to maybe or families or even, even psychologists and therapists are struggling to make them open up. Do you have any tips? I think it's
00:41:47
Speaker
I mean, the thing that just popped into my head was what do they enjoy doing and channel that if it's a positive thing, obviously. But, you know, if it's music, if it's writing, if it's drawing, if it's sport, you know, get them to do that as much as they can to a point where they feel I'm able to trust.
00:42:06
Speaker
and I'm able to open up. I think a lot of the time young people when they're pushed and pushed and pushed, just let it breathe, let them marinate, but let them know that you're there. And I think a lot of the time, yeah, it's hugely difficult for parents to, when that door is closed and they don't know what to do, but I think
00:42:28
Speaker
if they talk to a therapist or if they talk to somebody at school you know just it's about just letting them be and letting them kind of letting them express how they're feeling but in their own individual way because there's no set formula to grieving there's no set way to do it you know we all do it in our own ways
00:42:51
Speaker
And so I think it's about just understanding what that child or young person likes to do and then trying to sort of open up how they're feeling and using that maybe. Yeah, I think that's a really good point. I had some advice recently from a children's mental health charity about
00:43:11
Speaker
parents and carers doing activities alongside their child, doing things with them that they enjoy and that's exactly what you've just said, isn't it? Just get them to a point where they're relaxing and they feel purpose in their lives and then they might talk.
00:43:29
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I love that. Thank you so much,
Connecting with Mark and Conclusion
00:43:32
Speaker
Mark. Where can people find you if they'd like to connect and hear more about what you're saying about children's mental health and grief? And is there anything else anywhere else you'd direct us?
00:43:47
Speaker
Yeah, I say mainly I'm on Instagram, so Mark Lemon official on Instagram, Twitter I'm Lemon Dropbooks. We are on Facebook as well as Lemon Dropbooks and we're also our website www.lemondropbooks.co.uk
00:44:02
Speaker
Um, I'll stick all of them in the, in the, um, but mainly I guess mainly Instagram and you know, feel free to just drop me a message, um, a DM as I hate saying it, but you know, because, because I do reply and I can attest to that. So many people don't, they get so many DMS, but you do. I'm so conscious of people, you know, I always put myself in, in, in.
00:44:26
Speaker
the shoes of, if I message someone, the feeling of, you know, gratitude of them coming back to me. So I try, I always do the same thing. And so, yeah, I guess they're the main places you can find me. Like I said earlier, the audiobook of The Magical Wood has just come out and it's available on the Lemon Drop Books website for download. And £2 of every download is going to Sue Ryder charity.
00:44:50
Speaker
That's amazing. I will stick that in the notes as well so people when you finish listening just pop down underneath and click. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, no, thank you so much. It's been a lovely chat and I really, really appreciate your time coming to talk to the Teenage Kicks listeners. Thank you so much.
00:45:18
Speaker
Gosh, wasn't that just humbling to listen to? I feel so privileged that Mark was happy to tell me the story of his father's murder, but even more that he was so open about his own emotions as a teenager living in the aftermath of such a horrific trauma.
00:45:39
Speaker
The image that stood out for me as Mark was talking was the one of grief being like a coat that you wear, that you never really get rid of grief, it's always with you, it's just how you wear it. And I love that it's absolutely okay to have a day where that coat has to be huddled around you, just as it's fine to have days where you throw it off and leave it on the sidelines.
00:46:04
Speaker
You can hear Mark's passion, I'd almost say it's a need in him for making sure that kids are able to talk about what they're feeling and I loved his point that for kids who don't feel able to open up the most important thing is going to be to find something that they love doing and to do it as much as possible. It feels like that would make a lost young person feel purposeful again and that's when conversation can maybe happen a bit more easily
00:46:34
Speaker
I thought that was really insightful. If you've enjoyed this episode of the Teenage Kicks podcast, I would love it if you'd consider subscribing or giving me a rating and a review on iTunes. It really helps other people to find these amazing conversations about teenage life. There are lots more episodes, so have a browse and see if anything else strikes a chord for your family.
00:47:02
Speaker
There are more parenting teens tips on my blog, actually mommy too, so do head over there if you like a blog and you fancy a read. I'll put a link in the episode notes. Thank you so much for listening. Come back next week when I'll be chatting with another brilliant guest about the fun and games of raising teens.