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Anti-Valentine’s Day - Dating & Acquisitions
146 Plays1 year ago
Happy Valentine’s Day! We’re all about love, but on this episode LD and Eleanor talk about the economics of dating.
Dating is like Wall Street - think about relationships like mergers, look at the comps, and know your worth! And even after finding the one there are money considerations. We break down wedding costs and how to get your dream engagement ring.
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Pretty Invested Media and this related information does not constitute professional or financial advice of any kind (including business, employment, investment advisory, accounting, tax, and/or legal advice). Advice from a suitably qualified professional should always be sought in relation to any particular matter or circumstance.
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Transcript
Introduction to Pretty Invested Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to Pretty Invested. I'm Eleanor and this is LB. Presented by your favorite ex-finance bros. We talk about the money things you actually care about. Hi guys, welcome back to Pretty Invested. Today's episode is just going to be a lot of thoughts that we've both been having with personal lives and dating and how it kind of relates to high finance and
00:00:26
Speaker
everything is a market and we just have like a lot of thought. Maybe a little bit chaotic but...
00:00:35
Speaker
use frameworks that we as women in finance find helpful to navigating the chaos that is romance and love and partnerships yeah because there's economics in dating obviously there's so many economics in long-term relationships like I don't even know if I've like acknowledged this to you guys fully yet but I got engaged in July
00:00:59
Speaker
And I'm in the process of planning a wedding and dealing with a bunch of other life changes that I'll update probably next episode. Yeah.
Romance and Finance: A Market Perspective
00:01:08
Speaker
But yeah, I've just been doing a lot of thinking about money and... I think someone said the most important career decision a woman will make is who her partner is. Yeah. And that's so true. It really resonates. Not only with them being able to financially support you, them supporting you in your career, allowing you to be more risk-on, having dual income.
00:01:34
Speaker
just the lifestyle, the social life that you're gonna have. It's probably the most important decision and right now it's open market and I'm in my mid-20s and a lot of my friends are in the mid to late 20s and we're starting to think seriously about exputivity, dating, dating for marriage and that's a whole different game because it's not just about
00:02:02
Speaker
having fun. It's not about having fun, having experiencing, falling in love. It's like, who do I see myself realistically having a lifetime partnership with? Yeah. And I don't know, maybe it's not a popular PC topic, but there is a little bit of a timeline maybe arbitrarily put on by society, biologically, or just, you know, personally, you have a certain timeline. And
Dating Timelines and Relationship Value
00:02:30
Speaker
I think now is the time
00:02:32
Speaker
that you kind of start thinking about it seriously instead of just having fun. Yeah, I don't know when it like actually hit me that I needed to... I mean honestly I don't think that it like... I don't think I ever treated dating like it was a game. Yeah. I think it was really hard for me to prioritize dating when I was like in the trenches and working overtime. Yes.
00:02:56
Speaker
But once I started to get some semblance of work-life balance back, I was like, okay, cool. Like I want a person. Yes. And I don't know if you guys have heard about the Sex and the City taxi cab theory.
00:03:10
Speaker
I've been thinking about so much about this. They talked about men. Like, oh, when men are ready, when they hit like VP level or get a certain promotion, then they're like, I'm going to marry my girlfriend or I'm looking for my new wife or all my friends are getting married. Now I'm going to start dating seriously. And I don't love that because it almost puts all the power within whenever the man is ready, he'll just marry the next, the girl that's closest to him that'll do.
00:03:33
Speaker
Because I kind of think women are in the same boat, especially when you're a high-value woman. You're focused on your career, you're focused on traveling the world, having experiences, and then eventually you're like, wait, I want to start switching into a more mature, different era, and I need to start thinking about it seriously. And it can be kind of easy to also just
00:03:59
Speaker
Not necessarily settle, but just go for the guy that works.
00:04:04
Speaker
for now. Like a safe job. And I think it's important to understand the value that you bring. Like the taxi cab theory in Sex and the City almost gives women a scarcity mindset. Like you just have to catch the taxi when it comes by and be so lucky. But I feel like if you're listening to this podcast, any man or woman would be like so lucky to date you. And so you should also be like, well, guess what? I'm focused on my career now. I'm focused on traveling, focused on these things.
00:04:33
Speaker
friends, family, relationships. And when you're a high-value woman, lots of people want to catch your taxi too. And so I think you should also know your worth. And then I created this like
00:04:47
Speaker
analogy to high finance, taking a company, private M&A to dating because it's so similar. Or it's like the woman is the scarce resource in this. It's not like the woman from the man. Precisely. Okay, so I've been talking to so many of my girlfriends about this and I've been asked this like, do you want to be my girlfriend?
00:05:09
Speaker
And if I were 22, 23, I'd be like, sure, let's be in a little relationship. Let's play house. Let's play house, fine, cute. I like you enough. But now the next person I date, I want to be my future partner in life.
00:05:26
Speaker
And so when that's the bar, it's not that I'm not willing to commit, because I've been asked, why don't you want to commit to me? Are you scared of commitment? I'm like, no. I just say commitment very seriously. And the next person I date, if they're going to be my partner, I just don't know if I see that for you, sir. And I think it's different for men. They're a little bit more willing to throw around the girlfriend title, because if we're both 25, 26, 27,
00:05:53
Speaker
I would like to find someone maybe, I don't have a specific timeline, but I think men on average get an extra 10 years. So like a 26
Commitment as Mergers: Choosing the Right Partner
00:06:02
Speaker
year old girl, how seriously she is thinking about dating, a man in his 20s, 36 can start turning on that framework. And so they can have maybe one or two or three more like fun girlfriends. The equivalent of when I was 22, like, you know, where the lines are, ours is going much more,
00:06:21
Speaker
Exponentially, quickly, they have a longer time horizon. And so, yeah, just because you're willing to be like, oh, sure, you can be my girl for five years. That's not acceptable to me.
00:06:33
Speaker
I've learned. I'm done learning lessons in relationships. Like, I don't need to do that anymore. And so I was talking to my friends also, it's like, just because they, or even if their taxi light is on, like maybe they do wanna marry you, do you wanna marry them? Because you are a high value, smart, interesting, beautiful woman, and that unique combination is so rare.
00:07:03
Speaker
And going back to my analogy, imagine it's a merger and acquisition deal where this guy is a prospective buyer, a prospect, and you are a high value asset. And how do you know that you're a high value asset? Look at who you've previously dated. Look at the guys who are pursuing you. Look at who your friends are dating and be like,
00:07:26
Speaker
The cops are showing me that we are a high trading multiple. We are like, SaaS, you better be willing to pay a premium, not a discount. I love SaaS in 2016, I'm sorry. It's true. You have to pay a premium because we're high growth, high value assets. I know that because I look at the people around me, I look at who my history is, so why would I take an offer at a discount?
00:07:51
Speaker
because i know i'm not i'm not worried about that. and if you are sass in 2016 then like you have multiple buyers yes right so it's like you are the scarce resource in this instance because if you commit to one person you are closing yourself off to experiences that other people can provide you yes like men are not in this dilemma where women can provide them with an experience like men are with women because they're comforting or like they develop them emotionally but like
00:08:16
Speaker
Women in committing to someone like you're closing yourself off to so many experiences. Yes, like Maybe this is not relatable, but you know getting invited to yacht parties. I'm going to one tomorrow I don't know if I would go to one if I was in like a committed exclusive relationship I'm like shouldn't be partying by myself without my partner or Someone offered to fly me to cat or to sound so unrelated. I'm so sorry, but if you have those opportunities
00:08:45
Speaker
I would feel bad about flirting with someone if I had a partner. I wouldn't want them to do that to me, so I wouldn't do that to them. And I'm willing to do that, but for the right person, not just for someone to keep me company at night for the next two years. So who can provide you a comparable lifestyle without having to sacrifice on the opportunity that you currently have as a single woman? Yes, and I think it's important for us to be realistic too.
00:09:15
Speaker
Timing matters, and we've talked about women's timings, timeline is different than men, but as a woman in my mid-20s, I feel like I have a lot of options right now. I think, you know, hopefully with mom's jeans, I'll continue to have a lot of options, but the fact of the matter is, you have a lot of options right now.
00:09:39
Speaker
And so, like I said, when multiples are high, when the market is hot, it's a bull market. Like, that's when you want to IPO. The markets aren't always open. Like, last year, it wasn't a great time to go public, for instance, because the markets weren't really open, and you have to understand timing. You want to strike when your multiple is the highest. And so you have to do that calculus in your head of like,
00:10:01
Speaker
if you miss the the opening to go public then you might have to wait a while or you're delayed but everything is a decision and a risk calculation yeah where maybe you're too picky and you don't get to go public but or you get it you go with the discounted price because you don't know but i think a lot of women should have more confidence in who they are and
00:10:28
Speaker
maybe be more selective instead of just taking the offer that's on the table
Ambition and Emotional Investment in Partners
00:10:35
Speaker
or that they're emotionally attached to already? Yes, I think that's huge. I think so many women get emotionally attached in the first few weeks of dating and I also think that American dating is very much this phenomenon of you date
00:10:52
Speaker
And like you have a situationship that you're kind of committed to that situation and you're not seeing other people because you're emotionally involved with your situationship. It's like, what is this person providing you? What guarantees do you have in this? Like, can we think a little bit more?
00:11:07
Speaker
tactically about what we're doing before we get chemicals and feelings involved because i think with women especially i'll speak for myself the more time i spend with someone i'll just get attached and they'll be coming dear to me and it becomes so hard you can talk about markets high value you you better be willing to
00:11:27
Speaker
be my match but once you're like feeling gooey things for someone it's like that goes out the window and you're like I might not even not giving you a second look had this been under different circumstances but because you've endeared yourself to me I'm
00:11:42
Speaker
You know rational Yeah, you need to take advantage of like that rational window by keeping your options open. Yeah. Yeah and Going back to what we were saying if a guy wants to ask you to be his girlfriend. That means exclusivity. Yeah, and
00:11:59
Speaker
And going back to our M&A example, you're not just asking to buy shares of me and pay a high premium. You're asking to take me private. This is a take private. Take me off the market. I don't get to have the opportunity to entertain all these other prospective buyers. I need to do my due diligence on you. I need to really make sure if we were to merge, this would be accretive and value additive to both of us and there's synergies there.
00:12:23
Speaker
the parallels. And so like when we think about someone who is bidding, what are they bidding with? What is the value that they can bring? I think
00:12:35
Speaker
and this is why we like emotionally aware men to see the value of women because it's not just necessarily purely financial or looks, it's the emotional support, the ability to have values aligned, bear their future children, men honestly benefit a lot in their careers from having a wife and sometimes children because it helps them in their reputation like I'm not
00:13:03
Speaker
unaware of the fact that certain people like the way that you're able to not trophy wife but in certain ways are a good look for them you reflect well upon them yeah and people are like
00:13:19
Speaker
Oh, like they're with that person. That's an immeasurable thing. So you wanna find someone who sees your value. Do you know what I mean? I made this example, not every person values someone the same. Like not every market values an asset the same way, right? Because for example, a Bugatti, those are like million dollar cars guys. It's like way more expensive than the Lambo.
00:13:46
Speaker
If you can't resell it, let's say, a Bugatti is worth so much differently to one person, to even me versus someone in Southeast Asia. It's just a car, but you want to find someone who appreciates the details. All cars can drive. You can get a 5K car that runs perfectly fine.
00:14:08
Speaker
But you want someone who appreciates the intricacies of the engineering, the nice finish on the car, the seats, the design. Some people who just naturally have an appreciation for that and for you and like all those parts that a woman brings. And some people don't. Like some men just only care about how you look physically, which will
00:14:29
Speaker
can only depreciate over time. And if that's all the value in you as an asset, then you're going to get a discount because you're going to be depreciative. But they don't see the intrinsic value of the brand. That's what we look at when we put together a valuation for a company.
00:14:45
Speaker
so you want to find someone who you also don't have to tell them that you're valuable who just naturally appreciates all the things that a woman brings to the table it might not be how much money she has but like how she makes this person feel how this person communicates
00:15:03
Speaker
their commitment to the relationship. there's so much that's almost intangible values like goodwill. i think yeah i think a lot of what women bring is intangible which is like shitty in the capitalist world that we live in because people obviously want to see a tangible value at which is why i hate the question like what do you bring to the table when it's asked a woman like
00:15:23
Speaker
precisely what they mean like my presence i don't understand that question precisely that's why you don't want to date someone who would ask that yeah who like looks at a bugatti and is like oh like well this is an engine on wheels like cool i'm gonna go with a toyo like all right like you go with it and listen it's fine not everyone will appreciate a bugatti like you don't have to buy a bugatti but and it's not like comparing ourselves to bugattis but like we're not no no but that's like
00:15:51
Speaker
That's not the point. That's not the point. But you want someone to appreciate like the things that you have spent years working on within yourself, whether it be being well traveled, whether it be like developing yourself emotionally, whether perspective, your mind, your drive, your compassion, all these things that women bring.
00:16:11
Speaker
and i think those things also are creative over time like the emotional support being the anchor because so often i think women are the anchor for men to do their risky types of things and take the ones who are like the root of the family yeah and like
00:16:30
Speaker
I got this. I got our family. You can pursue these other things. And there's a whole debate about stay-at-home moms and the cost of childcare, like having someone that you trust take care of your child, like quantify that by an excellent
00:16:49
Speaker
nanny yeah that's unpaid labor but you don't take that into consideration when you're maybe in like the dating engagement period but the value that a woman brings i think just increases over time yeah and my one my friend said in the beginning maybe
00:17:07
Speaker
this is more traditional thinking but of dating with gender roles men have to put up more upfront but then they get so much more and the reciprocity comes at a later stage because it's like i said with the market if you merge with me like i'm going to increase your value you know this is not a merger of equals at the current rate and yeah um
00:17:32
Speaker
And so I guess the point of it is just, I really hope that as women, we kind of move out of that scarcity mindset. I
Gender Roles Across Cultures
00:17:41
Speaker
guess there aren't that many men who are fully appreciative, but- There aren't. I think they sadly, actually, I don't know. I don't know if they're like in the minority, but I do think that you can put guys into like two buckets. And it's like one bucket is the guy who wants to date
00:17:59
Speaker
a guy in a woman's body and like he wants you to watch sports with him and like brought with him and like okay wait sorry i think i saw something about that like i don't think men actually want that i think a man wants a girl who allows him to do that because when you have too much masculine energy yeah guys don't like that not necessarily like the interest in sports maybe they want you to be interested in sports like like the things they like that makes sense but
00:18:23
Speaker
Yeah. I don't think men even know what they fully want. I know that men don't know what they want. What do you mean? I think that a guy can look you in the eyes and tell you exactly what he wants on a first date. Yes. That will not be true. Yes.
00:18:39
Speaker
I mean, I can go into this in so many different directions, but... Can you give us one eyeball? Yes. So in New York, I think that men often say that they love a career woman, they love someone who is ambitious and a go-getter and, oh, it's okay if you don't know how to cook, we can order him, whatever. They're totally fine with you guys.
00:19:07
Speaker
being equal but really what they mean is like roommates and then they'll resent you for it and then they'll resent the fact that you don't nurture them and then they'll be a little bit jealous of the fact that like you make almost as much money as them and they'll resent the fact that you sometimes prioritize your job over them and then sometimes you tell them to shut up because you just got an email and they will resent you, they will in some cases feel emasculated by it and they said that they wanted all those things but they didn't, they wanted just a cutesy little girlfriend
00:19:35
Speaker
And I 100% agree and there was this one time, I think I told you about it. I had gone on a couple dates with this guy and he was always paying for everything. He had at that point gone for a bunch of drinks and I was always very appreciative. And then one time we went to this restaurant, got like a little, an entree and an app and shared it in a couple drinks. And then it was maybe like 120, 130 dollars. And when he went to the bathroom, I was just like, you know what, I'll just get it. Like he's been getting all this stuff. Let me show my appreciation for him.
00:20:05
Speaker
and then when he came back and saw that I paid he was so taken aback and I was like yeah I just wanted to show you I appreciate you and you know it's not a big deal I make my own money and he and he said like oh I liked it but the look on his face and his hesitation I think he felt emasculated he was like pale he was just super confused and like he's like oh no I like that you did that but
00:20:29
Speaker
I don't think that he did. He was like, oh, so you don't want to hang out with me anymore. That's why he did say that. He actually did say that. I'm like, no, it's truly just it was not a big deal. But I think he kind of didn't like that I took that provider identity off of him. Yeah. And I know some men would be like, would I love that? That's the same thing when guys are like.
00:20:49
Speaker
I would love for a girl to ask me out. I'm like, really? Because then it takes away the chase. And I struggle with this because for a while I was super progressive in terms of my thinking for men in dating equals. And as I get older, I find that a lot of gender roles do make sense in certain ways. And instead of fighting them,
00:21:19
Speaker
It's almost easy and it comes a little bit more naturally. Yeah. And you'd like to believe that gender roles are just created by the environment. But I think we are also influenced by our environment. You know, we prefer sharing things too. I think like a lot of it goes back to how the genders kind of tend to have overall very different love languages. Like women, we like to be loved for who we are. Men like to be loved for what they do.
00:21:49
Speaker
Really? A man will love you more based off of how much he invests in you and not for how much you do for him. And I think that we try to love each other in the way that we need to be loved. Wow, that's so true. And it doesn't work because if you're dating the opposite sex, they function very differently. Yeah, interesting.
Workplace Challenges and Gender Role Influence
00:22:14
Speaker
No, that's such a good point. Overall this summer I came to the realization that men are just not very discerning.
00:22:23
Speaker
and if you let a man just be like, let's go on a second date, will you be my girlfriend? They will lead you astray, because they are not thoughtful about, and you can tell them, hey, I'm dating for marriage, and they'll be like, yeah, I get it, I get it, yeah, totally, totally. And they will just lead you all around. You have to be thoughtful about what you want, and see if this is matching up, because they don't think deeply about the future, what's gonna happen, does this make sense? They'll literally plan a trip with you, and then be like,
00:22:53
Speaker
oh wait i'm gonna break up with her and like something's gonna this is gonna be awkward they don't think about these things i don't think they're maybe not in a malicious way they're not that thoughtful about what they say and men will like invite you to a wedding nine months out when they plan to break up with you in two months they're like oh i'm so excited for this wedding and they just i'm getting like war flashbacks really not not not my personal story to tell but i yeah i've seen that happen yeah
00:23:21
Speaker
i think what isn't discussed enough in western culture that we have seen like in our mothers in eastern cultures do is like our mothers were the boundary setters in the relationship and if anything like eastern women run shit and they're the ones that orchestrate everything in the household in the community whereas in western culture i think that
00:23:41
Speaker
I mean, I almost trust men too much. I don't know where the fuck it came from, but you have to be the one that sets the rules and make him think that it was his idea. And that is a lost art in Western culture. That's true. No, I think
00:24:03
Speaker
I wrestle with it because sometimes you do have to play into gender roles. For instance, my mom is the breadwinner. My dad technically works for her and one time I was a little out of turn and I said to him when I'm in a fight, I'm like, well, you don't have a job. But my mom literally pulled me aside and she was like, you cannot say that. You're gonna ruin everything I do.
00:24:28
Speaker
And I was like, but you know, that's true. She's like, I know but you can't say that because you're gonna damage his ego and then then we're gonna have like a huge mess and That's all he has that's like the blood in his veins. It's his ego. I think he slapped me after that. No I was like in high school and like you were old enough to know that that was fucked up and
00:24:53
Speaker
I don't know, he said something and you know, evil teenage girl goes for the jugular where it'll hurt, get slopped. But my mom's like, you just can't go there. He was mad because it was true. That's why he was so mad. If it wasn't true, why are you so mad? But it's like, my mom knew. Yeah. That's a sense of subject. She said your father is the man of the household. Yeah. Which is, I feel certain ways about it, but like, she knows for
00:25:21
Speaker
Harmony in the household, it is best to allow him to feel like a man's peer. And he is really wonderful for supporting my mom, having her flourish her own business. Because some men wouldn't even allow their wife to be in that position to be the breadwinner. Granted, she made enough money where he was like, okay, this works out for me.
00:25:43
Speaker
but it's like you still need to have some semblance of that traditional structure where we can like role play as like oh he's still the boss even though she signs his paycheck.
00:25:57
Speaker
That is so interesting. I mean, at the end of the day, they are married, so they're business partners. And even if she's technically his boss, he's there for emotional support. And he is part of the reason, probably, that she was able to build what she built. 100%. 100%. And so many times, you see the reverse, where it's the man, and then the woman helps with some of the finances, and how it's a business partner. Yeah.
00:26:22
Speaker
so I agree but I will say she's an engineer and my dad is not an engineer so he cannot do a lot of things that she is doing yeah well question if your mom was like the one that was focused on like the revenue generation did he do more of the child care it was he kind of like focused more on it when I was in high school where I didn't really need much okay
00:26:47
Speaker
He's a pretty good cook. We'll give him that. Yeah, so if your mom was making money, he was cooking. He was cooking, she was cleaning. It's a partnership, you know? But yeah.
00:27:00
Speaker
It works out. He did well. He has a beautiful wife, two wonderful daughters, doesn't really have to work, has a wife who's making bang, bought him a nice house. He was smart. He lucked out, basically retired at 55. Good for you, man. He was ahead of his time. He understood Sprinkle Sprinkle. And he still gets to say he's the head of the household. Yeah. I would love to be a man. Oh my God. That sounds like...
00:27:29
Speaker
he he made good choices yeah but yeah what are we talking about like eastern cultures or eastern cultures and how women run shit yeah
00:27:42
Speaker
it's so tactful like how they're able to do it versus sometimes like I want to be direct yeah but it's so jarring and it doesn't get you what you want so I've had to learn it doesn't it doesn't yeah it almost gets you the opposite of what you wanted when you're overly direct with your desires as a woman I don't know why but I mean this has mostly been my experience in work settings really yeah like it's always better to go to your boss and be like hey
00:28:12
Speaker
I'm having a hard time with this. Can you help me? Everything is so expensive in New York right now. What are we going to do about bonuses? I agree with that, but I also wonder if you are trying to make your way up the organization.
00:28:32
Speaker
I also find it's hard when they do view you as, and almost infantilize you to break out of that and to be an equal partner. I have never seen a woman get treated as an equal partner if she acted like a guy or if she acted like a girl, so I don't know how the fuck you get there. Yeah, yeah. My view has been more limited than yours. I've always worked at smaller organizations than you, but I've never seen a woman win. Never seen a happy woman. Honestly, a lot of the times I've seen women win is when they lateral. What does that mean?
00:29:01
Speaker
like not within the organization they move okay because i think it is sometimes quite challenging when you come in as a junior you really need a champion who will like help you get there yeah versus like you know the analyst associate role versus like a manager a boss an equal partner yeah that's a different level there needs to be that literally equal partnership respect yeah um
00:29:30
Speaker
it's like with any relationship when someone has a perception of you it's kind of hard to break out of it so yeah I guess bigger orgs have like structural things maybe it's not within this team you can move to that team yeah there's HR that'll check you yeah even still it's challenging it's it's hard and learning to communicate in a way that
00:29:59
Speaker
will get you what you want is what I'm trying to figure out right now. Because we all have certain principles of like, I would like to be able to express myself in the way that's most direct and comfortable and the way that a lot of men are able to. But that's not gonna get me what I want. And if it's not gonna get me what I want, it doesn't serve my interest to just keep doing it out of principle. Right?
Hypergamy and Relationship Dynamics
00:30:23
Speaker
It kind of reminds me of that whole, I don't know, lean in type of identity where
00:30:30
Speaker
I get it, for its time, it was very thoughtful. Actually, I remember how interesting some of those takes were when it was first published. But that one was basically like, the world will not bend to you, so you have to bend to the world. You're literally leaning in in a way that's like,
00:30:52
Speaker
you have to force yourself to be uncomfortable versus being like, hey, maybe we can try and get men to appreciate the ways in which women are strong negotiators, good investors. Instead, you have to reframe yourself to fit in. And there's a balance of being productive and getting what you want and still trying to move that needle forward.
00:31:16
Speaker
Yeah, what's that expression? Like fitting a square peg through a round hole. Yeah. I felt like that throughout a lot of my career. Yeah. It's unfortunate. I think like there's so many thoughts that I have on girl boss culture, like the difficulties around getting to a certain place in the hierarchy as a woman.
00:31:46
Speaker
And just like how much harder it is to do certain things as a woman versus being a man. Especially in like the cultures that we have worked in. Right. And it's one of the main reasons that I really don't understand 50-50 culture, which is like super prevalent in New York and like
00:32:13
Speaker
The girl math that I have around all of this when it comes to the economics of dating is that hypergamy should almost always be the thing that makes the most sense. What's hypergamy? It's when you're dating someone that makes more money than you. Okay, yeah. So I think girls, obviously you're generally dating someone that's older than you.
00:32:41
Speaker
Obviously, like you need them to be like at least as mature as you are. Also, like men tend to want to date younger women. Yeah. So it's not fully buying. So if he's older than you, then he's probably making more money than you. Yeah, you should be farther along his career. He better. He better be. So like what's going on with like the whole like 50-50 thing. Two,
00:33:06
Speaker
women put more emotional resources into the relationship like we just so happen to run more anxious than men like we are hardwired this way genetically we will always have more anxiety than men on average and so that is where the mental load of women the mental load-bearing that comes in for women in relationships it just so happens that like we happen to think ahead it comes from like hunter-gatherer society we haven't evolved out of that yet interesting
00:33:37
Speaker
Obviously, they're still a wage gap. So again, why does 50-50 work? And then again, just the difficulties of getting to a certain place in your career, like you have to be so much more exceptional as a woman to be like VP of blah blah blah as if like a guy that is like VP of blah blah blah.
00:33:55
Speaker
so i just don't think it's fair to compare apples to apples because it takes so much more strife and pain and mental resilience and anxiety to get to the same level as as a man financially financially i i agree and if you're a man and if you're older than me and not more successful than me then i'm like
00:34:20
Speaker
Okay, caveats if you're in a different industry, whatever. Yeah. Cause not everything's measured in money, but...
00:34:28
Speaker
You have all the cards stacked in your favor. You have the better hand, if we're gonna talk about poker. I think there's more to say about, like, if you're not in a good position, or at least equivalent to me, then what did you do wrong? Like, the culture's for you, promotions are in your favor, people just perceive you with the benefit of the doubt.
00:34:51
Speaker
People just presume that you know what you're talking about, even when you don't. I feel like sometimes in meetings, everyone just assumes I don't know anything. And then I have to prove that actually I'm very confident.
00:35:03
Speaker
And so I just find that like if the cards are stacked in your favor and you're not at least on my level, like what's going on? Like it's going to be hard for me to be attracted to you. Yeah. I mean, you want to view someone that you respect. Yeah. I find it hard to respect a guy who's like not better than me at some things. Yeah. And sometimes it's not money, right? Like if you come from like the arts industry. I respect a man that can put furniture together. Yeah. Well, now a task rabbit. You don't.
00:35:32
Speaker
No, I remember I was like, I needed to move something at one point and I was like, should I call one of the guys in my Rolodex or like one of my guy friends? I'm like, no, I'll just pay the 60 bucks to get a TaskRabbit to do it. I don't want to like have to engage these men. It's not that expensive. It's not. That's really funny. You are worth $60 for the hour. But yeah, exactly. I think that makes a lot of sense. And yeah, we'll start going back to your,
00:36:01
Speaker
your thoughts? well so i think that the only reason that this stuff has perpetuated is because we have dating culture now because it never mattered if everybody was dating to marry because you're getting married so it doesn't matter who's paying for what because everything is coming from the two of you
00:36:20
Speaker
So it's like this weird thing has happened in the dating stages where it's like, oh, like who's doing what? Who's responsible for what? Because you don't have joint checking accounts yet. So I think that all this stuff is relevant. Like while you're dating, I think that a lot of people are dating wrong and that you're not like giving yourself enough optionality in the beginning. Situation ships like terrify me. I don't understand them.
Wedding Planning: Finances and Cultural Nuances
00:36:43
Speaker
I think that they are bad for society.
00:36:48
Speaker
and i think that all this stuff goes out the window once you like lock someone in and like you're about to have a partnership with them because you are partners who cares what is doing you're you become family like i don't bemo request my mom yeah like this is the person you're gonna be building life with you're gonna have a house with you're gonna be have a shared like goals and maybe maybe some people don't do shared bank accounts it's like you're flesh and blood
00:37:10
Speaker
yeah they become your family and you have to think long term if you really like a girl for the few men who might be listening like if you really like a girl why would you nickel and dime her eventually you guys are if you think she's gonna be the one why are you gonna do that to her yeah when eventually you're gonna be together yeah you're gonna have to share everything yeah
00:37:33
Speaker
It's like, exactly. It's like, I don't understand. Like, why would I Venmo request myself? You know? Exactly. I mean, if you don't think that you're gonna end up with that person, maybe that's why people do that and make it more transactional, but that's telling people stuff. And sometimes men aren't so thoughtful enough to be like, hey, this is gonna be my future wife. I should probably view us as a unit. Yeah, I mean,
00:38:01
Speaker
I also think it's like a Western thing because like this wasn't a thing when my parents were growing up. Yeah, I think probably the same. I had someone ask me in my TikTok comments because I was talking about wedding stuff. They were like, can you talk a little bit about
00:38:19
Speaker
wedding planning and like who's responsible for paying for what I was like girl what are you talking about like we're about to get married like if we're getting married then his money is my money and my money is his money so what do you mean like who's checking account am I taking? Do you mean like parents? No they were asking like if the bride or the groom is responsible for certain things in like the wedding expenses and I was like what I was so confused by that question
00:38:49
Speaker
I do think that it depends if you have parents involved. Yeah, like I understand if there are families involved, then it becomes like a different question. Right. That's a cultural thing, I think. Yeah, it is a cultural thing. Like my dad paid for his wedding and he paid for his three sister's weddings. What? Because he is, he's the oldest boy. Wow. So I mean, my dad started supporting his family when he was like, this is like super old baby, but he was 12.
00:39:17
Speaker
oh my god wow okay so providing is like a huge part of your identity as a man in Korean culture especially if you are the oldest my mom is the oldest of three and she has a younger sister and a younger brother
00:39:33
Speaker
And in a lot of ways, she is like the biggest provider amongst her and her siblings. And we often send back money to them because one, like we're in the better financial standing, but like she often provided for her parents more than her siblings ever did. So there are two components of it culturally. It's like, what order are you in the birth order? And are you a guy or a girl? So there's not a thing about like the parents paying for the wedding.
00:40:03
Speaker
no really hmm because i know i think there's a difference between eastern like at least chinese and western cultures where it's like in the west is it the the woman's family i think the woman's family pays in the west okay i think in the east the the boy's family pays is there any concept of a dowry and the cultures that you're familiar with like we have
00:40:31
Speaker
we don't have like a dowry dowry but the guy side of the family is supposed to provide like lots of gifts yeah like things to like set up the house with like jewelry expensive clothing I haven't been involved in the intricacies of a Chinese wedding planning or I mean I've seen them but I've never been like who paid for this so I don't know maybe we should check and google that
00:40:56
Speaker
But yeah, it must be different if it's one culture, it's like the wife's family pays in one culture. It's like the husband's family pays, well the new pay is. Or I think a lot more common is the kids themselves paying these days, especially as they get older. And maybe the parents support them with some of the expenses, I guess.
00:41:22
Speaker
but yeah okay well brings me to the question like Alicia tell me about your wedding plans that you're willing to share i recently had a frenzy on tiktok when i was talking about wedding dresses and how absurdly expensive they are in the states yeah i i had a fitting two weeks ago i'm not a fitting i wish it was a fitting i was doing try-ons two weeks ago and there was this one dress that i've been wanting to try on for like
00:41:52
Speaker
Basically since I got engaged. Okay, and I got to try it on Loved it like really loved it like more than any other dress. I've tried on so far and it was fifteen thousand dollars That's that's a lot If that for a dress that I'm gonna wear once and wait, that's so much Yeah, cuz I went wedding shopping with my sister a couple years ago and the high-end was like twelve thousand and
00:42:22
Speaker
I don't know, like I haven't seen you say yes to the dress in forever but I swear like $15,000 could have bought you like the whole store back in the day. Like I don't know what the hell is happening. I swear like dresses weren't more than like three to five thousand dollars. Yeah, I think you're right. Like I think above ten thousand was like yeah like fifteen thousand. That's too Chanel bad. That's and they appreciate and value. That's a wedding ring itself. Depends on like whatever ring you want. No, but yeah.
00:42:51
Speaker
That's crazy. And so you found alternatives, hopefully? So... Do you buy it? No. No, I didn't buy it. Okay, okay. Yeah, that's lovely. I would never, I would never. Okay, okay. The investor in me just can't justify spending that kind of money on a dress that I'm going to wear for eight hours or like 10 hours. How many hours I'm going to wear it? I think some women are experimenting with secondhand dresses, like buying from other women. Yeah. Do you want to keep your dress?
00:43:19
Speaker
No, like if I were to spend 15 grand on it I would absolutely sell it. Yeah. But I think I'm just gonna experiment with having it designed overseas because there are a lot of really good designers in Kosovo and they're like way cheaper and actually this was one of the first dresses that I had ever pinned and I didn't even realize that it was an Albanian designer.
00:43:43
Speaker
There's this one dress and I had no idea where to try it on. And then I kept like looking around and then I clicked on a Pinterest link and it sent me to this website for Leah Stubla. And I was like, wait, like this sounds Albanian. And then I like scroll down to the address. I was like, this is an Albanian designer, $3,000 dress. And it looked better than the $15,000 dress that I fell in love with. So yeah,
Engagement and Wedding Budgeting Strategies
00:44:05
Speaker
a flight is like a thousand dollars.
00:44:10
Speaker
you know, for a thousand dollars to save twelve thousand dollars. Yeah. So I'm definitely going to have it get made abroad. Okay. I'll probably customize it a little bit more than what that current dress is that I'm in love with. But I'm going to go there, try some things on and see what I love. I have like multiple things made now because my budget allows for it.
00:44:32
Speaker
if I'm gonna have them made in Kosovo. Yeah. And for a date I still don't know because we're dealing with a move right now and that's kind of like throwing everything. Yeah well taking a few steps back if you're comfortable sharing
00:44:49
Speaker
What was the ring process like? Because that's a big expense and like you're gonna wear that for the rest of your life. What was that? The ring process took me forever number one just because I like can't nail down my aesthetics like for anything. Okay so you picked it out. I yeah like I essentially designed it. You don't want it to be a surprise and you're just like I'm not gonna take the risk. So I went into it and I was like you know what there's so few times in life where like you can be surprised. I was like just go crazy with it.
00:45:19
Speaker
And then we had our very first appointment and we were looking at rings and I was like, I hate this. I hate this. I hate this. I kind of like this, but I want five different things about it to be different. And then my fiance was like, yeah, I don't know if I can get this right. Wait, can you, okay, for the people who are watching on video, can you show the ring? Yeah. Isn't it so pretty? Thanks. It's so pretty.
00:45:50
Speaker
yeah so you went to like you picked the actual rock we after like two months of searching we found a company that we really liked working with called the clear cut and i basically told them everything that i gathered at that point like i knew how many millimeters big i wanted it to be because i have long fingers objectively and i was like i need a certain size right right
00:46:15
Speaker
We told them the clarity that we wanted, the shape. I have an oval, but I wanted it to be like kind of a tapered oval. I see, yeah. Like you see how it's kind of sharp. Yeah, I like it. So we gave them all that stuff and they gave us a bunch of diamond options and then we flew to New York to go look at them in person.
00:46:33
Speaker
I put them like on my hand and I was like in love with this one immediately. I mean when they showed it to me online I was like obsessed and then I put it on and I started freaking out. I was like oh my god. I think that may be a bigger moment than like saying yes to a dress.
00:46:48
Speaker
Because this isn't permanent. Yes, yes. 100%. And I think that spending a lot of money on a ring is way more justified than spending a lot of money on a dress because this is a store of value. This is a smart financial decision. Like this can be an heirloom one day, not to say that a dress can't be an heirloom. But like, it's kind of harder to preserve. Yeah. And I just don't... Yeah, I just can't justify. Yeah. Like, clothing expenses, like, I'd rather buy it back.
00:47:19
Speaker
That's fair. I need you actually. Why not? I may get a wedding bag. Guys, would you get it in white? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's a wedding bag. It's part of the expenses. I'm so curious. So for your ring...
00:47:32
Speaker
What did you want to optimize for, like size? Size. Size, okay. Size. Like, so clarity, like, I thought you can't really tell. So we got lucky, like this actually has really good clarity. Yeah. I think it's the best clarity. Yeah. Colorlessness. Did you care about that?
00:47:49
Speaker
I did but also when you see them on your hand you're like I can't really tell right right so I don't know how many grades below the top grade this one was but we optimized for size yes and they're cut I think cut is honestly the thing that you should care about the most yes because that determines how shiny it is
00:48:09
Speaker
So cut, then size, then clarity, then color. So you think oval gets the best type of shine? No, so there are different ways to cut an oval. There are different ways to cut a circle. There are different ways to cut. Radiance. It's very specific to the particular shape of the diamond. And actually old mine diamonds, which are hand cut.
00:48:37
Speaker
you can- I didn't know this, I learned this in the process you can sacrifice on the color for them because they show really really bright they can be like objectively yellow if you look at them upside down but they face up really bright so you can get like a big old mine diamond and why don't they just cut it like that this now? they should yeah they should
00:49:04
Speaker
Okay, I'm still curious because there's also obviously lab-grown diamonds now. Yeah. And you know, it's the naked eye, it's invisible. And I think if you put under like a specific thing, you can tell if it's lab-grown. But like chemically they're the same. Yeah, chemically they're the same. I forget the specifics and like how you can detect that they're different. Yeah. But you know what's funny? The cost of diamonds, I don't think it's gone down.
00:49:34
Speaker
Has it? Like real diamonds, no, have not gone down. Here's what I mean, I personally don't see anything wrong with a lab grown diamond. Yeah. And I'm like, but who knows what I'll ultimately want to decide on.
00:49:52
Speaker
But I will say, I think there are a lot, I've been seeing a lot bigger rings. No, same, same. Right? Yeah. I think so. And I'm like, no, like, like, I think that's perfectly fine. You want to optimize for size. I totally agree. And I do wonder, will that do something to the diamond market long term? And just like basic market dynamics, if there's more supply of rings that you can't tell the difference of. If everyone is walking around with like,
00:50:19
Speaker
big-ass rock. Yeah. Maybe people are gonna optimize for other things. I've seen a lot more designs in rings and I think maybe that correlates to
00:50:30
Speaker
because the size of the rock is not as much. The differentiator, yeah. So like people are trying to find different ways to make it unique. Like the two stones. Yes. Like bezel cuts. Yeah. I'm sure there's something because if you see everyone with huge rocks on their fingers, people want to feel special. Like I think that's totally normal. Yeah. Although the way that I think about it is like if you saw someone who was wearing Shein and they had a Birkin,
00:51:00
Speaker
Like you know who in your friend group can afford like a four carat rock. And so if they're walking around with a four carat rock and you know that they can't afford one, then you would assume that it's big. So I think the rock has to match your lifestyle. Right. I mean, maybe I'll change my mind on this.
00:51:25
Speaker
it's also a joint decision like your fiance will have strong opinions on what they want it to be right and okay this might be a conflicting opinion but also why does it matter like what if you just get cubic zirconia these are all arbitrary values you put on it yeah that being said i still i want a really pretty nice rock to show like status and love and like my style yeah at the end of the day we're all human
00:51:50
Speaker
not human like i don't know how much resale value you really can get on a diamond maybe depends on who you buy it from okay like you want to make sure you're not getting ripped off on your rock like don't go to i think it's like blue Nile or like those those online okay good to know okay okay don't go there
00:52:08
Speaker
Okay, we'll have this conversation again when it actually becomes a pertinent discussion for me. Because I'm gonna forget all this, but you have so much nuggets of information. Yeah, that was a process. It was very stressful. Yeah, and I'm excited for more of your content, like just on your wedding planning experience.
00:52:27
Speaker
So it sounds like you're optimizing for the ring, the dress, what do you think about it? You don't have to give prices, but if you have a budget, where do you see yourself allocating the most money? More on flowers, more on the venue, more on...
00:52:42
Speaker
Food, moron. Overall, aesthetics. I've never left a wedding and been like, oh, that food was so memorable. I've never remembered the food at a wedding. I've only remembered it when it was bad. But I've never remembered it when it was excellent. Yeah, because it's just so hard, especially if you have a larger wedding, to make good food in large batches. Yes. So I will not be optimizing for food. I will be 100% optimizing on aesthetics and the vibe for our guests.
00:53:11
Speaker
I personally, I don't really like one of the people's weddings. Really? Maybe that's like an unpopular opinion. I don't love it. Like most of the weddings that I've been to in my adult life have been huge expenditures on my part. I was a bride made at wine. I was a member of the family at another, had to fly for both. It was just such an ordeal. Yeah. And like the main event lasts like
00:53:39
Speaker
eight hours and you remember like very little of it right so i want it to be very guest centric and i want the aesthetics to be amazing because i'm walking away from that with my memories and my photos and obviously my husband yeah yeah so i'm gonna spend a ton on photography videography i want the venue to be amazing but will i be spending twenty thousand dollars on a venue
00:54:05
Speaker
No, I think that's absurd. And I think that so many things are marked up five times what they're worth because you put wedding on it. Exactly. So I personally hate getting ripped off. Like the immigrant in me just feels like I want to gamify it and squeeze as much value out of this entire process as I can. It's not about the actual money. It's like the principal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like I should not be paying this much. You will not send me out a dining room. Yeah. Like thou shalt not scam. Right. So
00:54:35
Speaker
Yeah, a lot of it's gonna be on the visuals. Okay. And the ambiance. Got it. Ooh. Okay, so when you say optimizing for the guests, just like making it a fun experience for them. Yeah. I can't imagine you having like two party party though. Is that where you're going for? I want it to be a party party at the end for sure. Yeah, at the end, yeah. I feel like it would be very elegant during the actual ceremony. So. Yeah? I don't know if we're gonna do our ceremony in front of our guests.
00:55:04
Speaker
the thought of having our vows in front of other people makes me want to jump out of my skin so I think we're just gonna do it just the two of us yeah like do our vows in front of someone else and then the legal legal part we can do with our immediate family there yeah but I don't think our friends care to like see us get like married like sure it's emotional but that's totally there and you guys can just be there for the party
00:55:33
Speaker
Okay! No, I get that because sometimes there is also politics to wedding guests, right? It's like
00:55:43
Speaker
Not all of our friends want the best for us, or people in our friend groups want the best for us, but it's like, I should still invite them to my wedding, but I don't want someone who's like, hmm, at my wedding, watching me do my vows, right? But if you're like, ah, it costs so much drama, but I don't want to invite them. Is it worth causing friction and tension in the friend group by not inviting someone? Because you know secretly they're a little bit jealous or whatever.
00:56:11
Speaker
or judgy or just like a bad vibe. So for your intimate moment, I understand why you really, really want super close people. And then if you have a party, people are invited to the party. I mean, even like that intimate moment, we are only having our immediate family there because they have explicitly said we will be incredibly pissed off if we are not there. So. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Fair, fair. That's why. That's the way it is. Got it. Got it. Yeah.
00:56:40
Speaker
Yeah, oh man, I'm excited for you. And yeah, I think it's so valuable that you're sharing your insights because I think the wedding industry is just its own beast. Everything
Conclusion and Social Media Engagement
00:56:53
Speaker
is so expensive. They're purposely opaque. They're like request quote. Like just tell me how much it costs. Yes. How did you know that? It's been so annoying for me to get in contact with venues and be like, hey, blah, blah, blah. And then they send me a 50 page brochure. I'm like, what?
00:57:10
Speaker
Like what am I supposed to do with this? It's a part-time job, I swear. I know, and how much wedding planners cost, and now I think the average, like it's so normal to spend a year planning your wedding. I think before people would be like, oh, like less than six months. And now I'm like, I think if you told any of my friends that they had to plan a wedding in less than six months, they'd be like, it's not possible. I cannot, like you can't even get a dress. Yeah, things take forever, things to secure, you have to book.
00:57:38
Speaker
And yeah, there's just so much. It's a cost. Obviously, we want to be like, oh, I want to optimize for everything. The best food, the best flowers, the best whatever. You have a budget and you want to optimize for certain things. So it's not like, oh, I'm going to have McDonald's at my wedding, which actually might be kind of a lip thing. Maybe to do that.
00:57:59
Speaker
But it's like, no, you want to know what's actually important to you. Just like all things in life. You're not going to spend whatever you can, even if you have the budget. Even people who are like billionaires still have a little bit of a budget. They're like, what do I want to optimize for and really go out for? And like, this doesn't give me that much utility or value. So I'm not going to spend as much money like giving you the food. And I agree. I'm not expecting like amazing food. Yeah.
00:58:25
Speaker
like Michelin star quality food. What about alcohol? Would you like do, do you care about like an open bar or? Oh, it has to be an open bar. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So that's way more important than the food. Yeah. I'll take McDonald's. I think that, I think you should offer chicken nuggets.
00:58:45
Speaker
I think I would definitely do like a spin-on shake shack type food or like a taco truck or like a churro station. What about Albanian food? I don't like Albanian food. Oh really? No. Okay, that's fine. Something's don't travel well or don't pour too long. Maybe I'll do baklava for the wedding cake to pass out and then we'll just do like small like aesthetic cake to slice. Oh cute.
00:59:14
Speaker
I think you do need wedding cake. Of course. Yeah. And sometimes it's good to question tradition, but sometimes also fun to like lean into the traditions, you know? I think I will be doing like an Albanian outfit for at least like 20 minutes. Okay. Like a traditional like bridal outfit, which is like ethnic AF. Love it. You're gonna look amazing. How many outfit changes are you gonna have? At least three. Okay.
00:59:44
Speaker
Yeah, why not? It's your day. Yeah. It's your fashion show. Especially from getting them made abroad and they're like super affordable. Yeah. Ooh. Okay. It's going to be great, but yeah. I'm sure we'll have more chats and you'll create more content on your TikTok. Yeah. About this process as you go through it. I'm working on it. It's been a lot. Do it for the content. Do it for the plot. Yeah, but I'm trying to teach people about my mistakes or as I go through it. Yeah. Perfect.
01:00:15
Speaker
I think we talked about a lot. We did. Yeah, this is fun. Yeah, it's fun. Took some, you know, tangents. But yeah, this was, I think this conversation was a little bit more of like, we just hadn't recorded in a while. I just had so many thoughts.
01:00:29
Speaker
Yeah. Do you want to sign us off? Yeah. Okay. We are Pretty Invested Media everywhere on TikTok, Instagram, all socials. Please, please, please rate us. Wherever you're listening to us, it really helps us continue making this. And we'll see you for next time's episode. Yeah. Bye guys. Stay pretty invested.