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Should You Split the Check? Where Equality Stops Feeling like Equity in Dating
226 Plays1 year ago
On this episode, Eleanor and LD talk about the role that money plays in romantic relationships! Debating gender roles and the idea of 50/50. They reveal how their perspectives on money in dating have evolved over time - no more splitting the check.
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Transcript
Introduction to Pretty Invested
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to Pretty Invested. I'm Eleanor and this is LB. Presented by your favorite ex-finance bros. We talk about the money things you actually care about.
00:00:12
Speaker
Hey guys, welcome to Pretty Invested featuring your two favorite recovering finance bros. Last week we talked about just money and relationships in general.
Money and Romantic Relationships
00:00:24
Speaker
And this week we're digging in a little bit deeper into specifically romantic relationships and how money plays a part. Yeah, this one I think will be a little bit more opinionated. And I know everyone has their own thoughts on how
00:00:43
Speaker
money works in dating and in romantic relationships. But I think there are some general rules of thumb that apply in order to honor yourself, create boundaries, and make sure that you're being respected and your time is being valued. We talked on last week's episode a little bit about how we come from more traditional backgrounds.
Dating Norms Across Cultures
00:01:10
Speaker
In my culture, in particular,
00:01:14
Speaker
obeying men will literally like throw a hissy fit if you pay for anything as a girl. Like it's incredibly, they find it so disrespectful and embarrassing. So imagine my surprise.
00:01:28
Speaker
coming from that kind of a culture and seeing this American dating culture where guys number one treat you like an option. They don't even tell you if they want to date you long term or not. There's hookup culture, which again, super foreign concept to me.
00:01:47
Speaker
too, like sitting as a concept. Like my dad and me would go back to Albania, like we would invite like 15 people out for dinner and he would cover the whole thing. And it's not like we're particularly wealthy either. So it's like, my dad wasn't rich, but he was incredibly generous. My mom was a stay at home mom. And yes, there are complications around that. But
00:02:10
Speaker
my dad would send us away on vacation two months out of the year and he just wanted her to be a mom and be pretty. I don't know which number I'm on now, but I was just so disgusted by American dating culture and expecting women to be everything and also be a man.
Should Women Pay in an Unequal Society?
00:02:37
Speaker
Wow.
00:02:39
Speaker
that's you know okay what someone i i've also just gone up and down in my thought of oh should a should a woman pay should a man pay someone recently told me oh you know if you're like such a feminist why don't you pay for this and i thought about thought of it in the moment i was like well are men and women are paid equal are we no longer in a patriarchy when we are no longer in a patriarchy then i'll pay for it
00:03:09
Speaker
It's not an equal society. Why am I the first one in an unequal society to be the first one to try and make it more equal? When it is equal, then maybe I'll consider paying, but not until then. Oh, it is actually not true. Like I'm happy to split, but it was just one of those things that like ignited a fire in me.
Societal Pressures on Women
00:03:27
Speaker
No, I think what isn't discussed enough is the fact that it is a part-time job to be a woman. And it's a job that doesn't pay you. It's a job that costs you money. It takes so much time and money to show up in a socially acceptable way. It's painful. We get lasered. We get waxed. We get hair treatments that burn our scalp.
00:03:55
Speaker
You literally push yourself to like the uncomfortableness. Yes. We have wounds. We make children. And instead of being paid by the government for giving them freaking human beings, like creating human beings, like the most valuable thing that you can do for society.
Challenges of Societal Change
00:04:16
Speaker
It hurts us in our careers.
00:04:19
Speaker
It hurts our health. We have this weird concept of feminism having given women all these rights on paper, but it's almost more insidious now, all the inequalities between men and women, because they're not necessarily legal inequalities aside from abortion rights. As we've become more modern,
00:04:44
Speaker
Like there are all these other issues that have popped up into society with like technology making women seem more accessible. Like what has porn done to society and like how women are viewed in relationships? What has Instagram done to how much men respect their current partners and like value them based on their looks? Statistically, if a man is on Instagram and he's like scrolling through like all the Instagram models,
00:05:14
Speaker
he will always find his partner less attractive. It doesn't work that way if a woman does it, right? So there are all these new issues that have popped up as we become modernized and like, what, you're not going to pass a law that says that, okay, like women's salaries have to accommodate the fact that in order for them to be viable in the dating market, that
00:05:37
Speaker
there needs to be like a subsidy for women to like wax and like get their nails done and get their hair done and pay for quality makeup and have clothes that fit them well. So yeah, like we're not splitting the fucking bill. Yeah. Someone at once asked me, what are your hobbies? And I'm like, well, when I go to Pilates class, go to a SoulCycle class, get my nails done. Like my hobby is like looking pretty. Yeah.
00:06:07
Speaker
And it's all so expensive. And even going to work, I would have to go to work super early. I've gotten my makeup routine down pretty quickly, but my guy friends roll out of bed, put on a suit out the door.
00:06:27
Speaker
do my skincare routine, do all my layers of makeup, tame the frizz, all this stuff just to be presentable at work. You can go without the makeup and all that stuff, but
00:06:40
Speaker
most people expect women to look in present in a certain way.
Hidden Costs and Expectations on Women
00:06:45
Speaker
And there are just so many unseen costs of being a woman. The pink tax, like shampoo for men and women, there's like, what's, I don't know, whatever percentage more, just because it's for women. And I don't
00:06:59
Speaker
I don't think I realized all of these things when I was in college. In college, girl, I used to pay for my ex-boyfriend for a lot of things because he just didn't come from like the same financial background that I did. When I was, oh, I'll pay. I'm a strong feminist, you know, working girl. I'm happy to pay. I can pay. But now I've
00:07:25
Speaker
come to realize like, wait, this world really is not equal. And me offering to pay for my boyfriend's dinner is not gonna make it any more equal. Yeah. I think I've also become a lot more not dissociative. Like I've become a lot more angry at what it's like to be
00:07:54
Speaker
a woman in the working world as I realized what it's doing to me psychologically. So one, men run on a 24 hour clock. Women run on a 30 day clock. Men wake up the same every day. It's fine for them to have a nine to five every day, five days a week.
00:08:20
Speaker
Women have sporadic bursts of energy depending on where they are in their cycle, right? So it's like some days or some weeks we're way more tired than we are other weeks. Like some weeks we can accomplish like 500% of what we can accomplish in like other weeks in our cycle. So it's like the nine to five workday was designed around man's biology. That's one. Two, what was I gonna say? Oh, two.
00:08:49
Speaker
Like we're now in a society where women have to work in order to survive. And there are two very different personalities that you need to maintain when you are at work and when you are in a relationship with a man.
Balancing Work and Relationship Roles
00:09:04
Speaker
When you're at work, you obviously have to be more masculine, assertive, dominant, talkative. Like you're just on in a different way and your adrenaline is way higher and it's so hard
00:09:18
Speaker
to turn that off at the end of the workday and then come home and have a boyfriend be like, oh, hey, babe, how are you? And be gentle and loving towards them. I struggled with this so much in my early 20s. And to be honest, I don't think I was a good partner in the first few years because I had no idea how to turn that off.
00:09:44
Speaker
And I just felt that I was constantly working harder than my partners because I was, because it came more naturally to them to be in quote unquote front facing positions or like front office positions. And for me, it was like the struggle where I constantly had to prove my deservingness or having to prove myself in spaces. So I was always turned way more on and like way more
00:10:13
Speaker
stressed than my partners and it's hard to like be two people every single day. So I think part of digesting that is what pulled me out of working in VC if I'm being completely honest because I just found it really really hard to be like
00:10:38
Speaker
authentically in a relationship, which was more important to me than working in VC. And it's why I now work on my own hours so that I can honor my body. And if I'm menstruating, if I'm on a period week, then I can take it a little bit slower that week.
Gender Roles in the Workplace
00:10:54
Speaker
So there's just so much that the corporate world does not take into account for women's bodies and psyches.
00:11:05
Speaker
I think it's interesting. I don't know if I have really cracked or noticed for me how my menstrual system works for my productivity, but it affects every person differently. And just because one woman says
00:11:20
Speaker
oh she's not really able to tell the difference week to week doesn't mean every woman doesn't have a different experience just like how i don't get cramps i have friends who are debilitated for days like it is such a struggle to just go into the office when they have their cramps and so it's like it is a hormonal thing and
00:11:40
Speaker
Yeah, in different relationships and in different workplaces, you have to be more masculine and feminine. And I imagine it's a very big struggle to go from a place where you basically have to cosplay as a man in certain ways. Yes. And then go home and then take that mask off and then be able to delineate between what is my real personality.
00:12:03
Speaker
Because there are parts of us that are more masculine, and there are parts that are more feminine. And having to put on a front when at work is very tiresome. And then this is a whole other topic, not as much relating to do with money. But have you ever heard of the concept of whitewashing? Yeah. So for those who don't know, whitewashing is when, especially people of color, when they have to act more white or come switch,
00:12:33
Speaker
right, so that they can fit in with like the predominant white culture. I brainstormed this idea called like man washing, where at work, I will act more like a man. And I struggle because I don't know where
00:12:56
Speaker
Eleanor ends and the male version of me starts. Like, am I really this sarcastic? Or do I know that sarcasm does well in this culture? Am I really so directly determined? Or is it because everyone around me who's successful is like that? Where does my personality start? And versus what I, as a rational person, have determined to be good traits to have to succeed. I actually think maybe we should put this into a whole other episode.
00:13:27
Speaker
I remember there was advice that came from Steve Jobs' memoir and it was like, be bold, be direct, ask for exactly what you want. And I tried to implement that as a woman in a negotiation conversation and it was received so poorly.
00:13:43
Speaker
And it's like, yes, that's great advice for white who are CEO types, Steve Jobs. But when I tried to do it, it wasn't received well. And it's just a whole other thing of like, I don't even know what is me and the male characteristics that I think served me well in business. So I don't know. I don't know. There's so much to unpack there.
00:14:10
Speaker
I think prior to the early 20s stage is dating in high school and college. Yeah, I think it's a way more even playing field there because you see guys as their equals like everyone's by their parents, everyone's broke. And so it's easy to apply a 5050 mentality to that. But I think it's
00:14:34
Speaker
difficult to them like come out of that mentality once you are in the working world and you're transitioning from this environment where women are typically out competing men in education to then the working world where it's a completely new playing field and harder for women.
Gender Equality from College to Career
00:14:57
Speaker
So it's like you used to be on top and now you're like
00:15:00
Speaker
Wait, like why does my boss only like the boys? Or how do I hold conversations about golf and football? I never needed that to be a straight A student in college. Yes. Yes. Exactly. I remember there, like we would do like the
00:15:23
Speaker
like the Series 69 test for banking. And some of us did really well. And some of us were like, you know, struggling to pass the test in order to be investment banker during training. And then sometimes the people who are struggling to pass the test were like, doing really well in banking. And you're kind of just a little bit surprised. And then it's not having anything to do with, oh, they're like the best modeler, but they,
00:15:51
Speaker
get along really well with the VP or the director and that's something and so then even like it would just yeah to your point where I kind of was like you're literally in many ways just getting ahead because you're a man and it gets even more exacerbated when you go to more as you get more senior like at the analyst level I think people are still a little bit more fair but then when it becomes ultimately a sales job
00:16:18
Speaker
guys prefer other guys cause they can like, you know, pow wow with them. And so yeah, in college, right? We all lived in like the same dorms, you know? So yeah, we could split split 50 50. I would feel bad. Like we're all paying tuition. We're all like not making any money. Like, yeah, some of us come for money. Some of us don't, but no one's like really accessing their trust immediately during college. So people would be splitting stuff. And then when you go into the workplace and like,
00:16:46
Speaker
you're a hedge fund boyfriend who makes like five times as much money as you you're a little bit like well maybe don't vent on me for groceries and then you're also annoyed that certain guys that you work with are getting ahead and getting paid more just by virtue of being men so you no longer feel like you're equal so like it just feels I don't know I haven't fully unpacked how I feel about it all but
00:17:13
Speaker
I have pretty strong opinions on how it should be. But also I have strong opinions on how it should be for my situation because I know what I'm like in a relationship. There are so many things where it's hard to put generalizations. Because what if you do make more money? Or what if your family has a lot of more money? Or what if you're in an industry just that this doesn't pay as well? My ex was in the film industry.
00:17:40
Speaker
I felt so bad asking him to pay for stuff. There were times where I was like, oh, I really like this matcha latte. You should get it. And he was like, oh, I don't think I should pay for this. I'm just going to buy you a matcha latte because I want you to try it. And I want to take care of you because I love you. And I'm sad that you're in a job that's paying you so little, but I want to support you. So it's hard to apply the rules I would have for like
00:18:06
Speaker
a successful founder, a hedge fund guy to someone who's making so much less than you, you know? But how old were you? You were like fresh out of school during that relationship, right? Yeah. Yeah. So you were in the transition phase of we're all equal and we're all like human beings to now it's like. And that's something else that I think about where
00:18:35
Speaker
like I have a pretty good financial position, but not so good that I feel like I can support someone else. Yeah. Um, now where I'm like, Oh, I can definitely take care of my lifestyle and your lifestyle and we can have this grand lifestyle together. So now I think about it and I'm like,
00:18:54
Speaker
Well, I was willing to do that for him because I loved him, and I wanted him to be happy, and I wanted to support him. But if I were to meet someone in his financial position today, would we even click in the same way? Like, OK, Latina, hypothetical, what if your boyfriend decided that he wanted to go and be super big in an industry that doesn't pay well? Super big in any industry that didn't pay well?
00:19:23
Speaker
Like, I don't know, like film, modeling, I don't know, some art, something that's gonna take time where he's just not gonna be bringing in money. This literally happened to me. Okay, what happened? Not on my current relationship, but with the guy that I was dating in college. He was like vying for a job at Goldman, got the job, and then was like, ah, like, I don't know if like I wanna do this. He was like kind of artistic. And he was like, I think I wanna go into like,
00:19:52
Speaker
the art world or like something like art history related. And I broke up with him. Cause I was like, you're insane. And those are not the values that I hold. Like at the end of the day, it comes down to values. And I'll be honest, like I, I'm not attracted to people that want to work less than I do.
Choosing Partners Based on Values
00:20:11
Speaker
Like point blank, I'm not attracted to a partner that's less ambitious than I am. Like that's disgusting. No. Like I have all these other things to do. Like be hot and like stay skinny and like inject stuff and like lasers into my face to stay young. And it's going to become like increasingly expensive for me to stay looking like this. I have a womb. I'm going to have children. And you have the audacity to be more relaxed in life than me.
00:20:41
Speaker
You're mental. No. Again, my perspective. It's just not attractive to me and I immediately lost respect for the person that I was dating and literally broke up with him that week. Wow. What if it was something where it's a really respectable job but it's just not going to pay well for a while. It still has ambition in a different industry. It just doesn't pay well.
00:21:11
Speaker
I respect ambition, but there's also some things that are so deeply ingrained in me with what I was describing about how I grew up with my dad being very much a provider and coming from a family where money scarcity was always top of mind. And my main goal in life has always been to have no money scarcity. So I just wouldn't want to sign up for a life with
00:21:41
Speaker
a partner that would almost like guarantee money anxiety. Like I just wouldn't be comfortable with it.
00:21:48
Speaker
No, that's, that's super real. That's super real. And I think people can like, you know, hear that and say like, Oh, how could she say that? Like, what about love? But when you really think about it, you don't know what it's like to come from a place of like money scarcity. And like, that's a choice that you don't want to make. And you don't want to have right. And like I had a friend, I have my reasons for going to investment banking. But I asked her, Oh, what made you want to do banking all of a sudden? She's like, I grew up poor.
00:22:19
Speaker
And I never want to feel poor again. She literally said, I'm going in it for the money. And I was shocked that she just like,
00:22:28
Speaker
had the boldness to be so upfront about it, you know, because it was like, oh, I like finance, like, look at the M&A. She's like, for the money. And she was on a full ride to school, really struggled for money. And she was like, I'm not going to be
Financial Security in Partner Selection
00:22:42
Speaker
in that position. And I think there was this statement that said, like, the biggest career decision a woman can make is who she decides to be her partner. And that's true. Like,
00:22:53
Speaker
And I think it's a case by case basis, but I think you knew like what's right for you. And like, yeah, you don't want to meet a place where you're going to have to be worried about money. And then like, you also feel the pressure of like having to support that person as well. Like that's, that's the whole other thing that you would have to be signing up for. Yeah. I think like as a broad generalization, we all choose partners that make us feel safe.
00:23:21
Speaker
And some people had childhoods that didn't let them feel safe emotionally. And so people then want partners that really know them. Like they hold a very safe space for their feelings. My mom was really good at creating emotional space for us and was incredibly generous with her feelings. So I don't prioritize someone's like,
00:23:52
Speaker
mushiness in a relationship like emotional intimacy is incredibly important to me. Yeah, but the hardest part about my childhood was knowing that if I wanted to go to a good school that I had to get a full ride and that was what I ended up having to do and it was incredibly taxing on me. Yeah, and I never want to bring my kids up in an environment like that. So I just wouldn't choose a partner that would
00:24:22
Speaker
even let that be a slight risk. Wow. No, that's super meaningful. And I think it's really honest because I think we can think about it in the abstract of like, oh, but for money and then we support each other and love. But you know, and I think sometimes you have to have experience what that was like to know I don't want that for myself. And I'm not going to let that happen to me or my future children. Yeah.
00:24:50
Speaker
There are instances where I feel like it's fine to like wash my hands with it and get the whole thing.
Financial Boundaries in Early Dating
00:25:02
Speaker
Like if I know that I'm, what'd you say? To get what whole thing? Oh, like if I know that I'm going to be ghosting someone, then I will just be like, oh, like it's on me. Don't worry about it. And I don't feel guilt about like,
00:25:20
Speaker
going MIA and never talking to them again? That goes back to our last episode of spending money and then owing someone, right? Where if, let's say, a guy pays for a really expensive date, then you don't owe him anything. But then you're kind of like, I do feel bad, where I'm like, oh, you paid for a really expensive dinner.
00:25:41
Speaker
and I'm never going to talk to you again. Like in my case, I just, if I know, cause I usually I know within the first 10 minutes, actually probably the first 10 seconds if I am ever going to see something. I'm just going to order a drink, the cheat, like a cheap drink in and out. I don't want to see, I don't want you to feel bad about it. You can pay for my dinner. If I want a nice dinner, I'll pay for it myself. It's not worth my, it's not worth my time. We're the guilt.
00:26:05
Speaker
guilt like yeah the whole going through the whole back why do i work so hard for my money i don't work so hard for my money so like i don't have to go on shitty days to have a nice meal if i want to have a nice meal i'll go and get one by myself or with my friends you know it's not worth my time so if i if i'm never gonna see you guys i don't really feel right about
00:26:27
Speaker
paying for it because I'm like, well, I'm never going to see you again. I don't really want to pay for just a shitty drink in your company. So instead, I'll just let you pay for a cheap drink. That's like definitely less than 20 bucks or something because then I don't feel bad about it. But because I don't feel like I should have to pay for a date that also I'm never going to see again. And like I didn't even really need this drink and my time was wasted. Yeah. I do think it's like the case where if I were to really like someone
00:26:57
Speaker
And then they were to want to split it with me. I don't think I would like them as much. Like if they were like on teeter-tattering and then they did ask me to pay, yeah. I don't know if people see me again. What would you do if someone Venmo requested you? Like if a guy Venmo requested you for like a meal after the fact? If I- Has that ever happened? Like this guy, that's never happened to me. But like, do I like this guy or do I not like this guy? Let's say you liked him.
00:27:29
Speaker
Honestly, I'd probably just pay it, but never see him again. I kind of actually really, really liked doing that to me because I feel like it's like, if you really, really like someone, you're not going to test the waters like that. I don't think I, I think the last time I've ever, I've only really, I actually don't really know if I've ever paid for a first date. I think it's only, maybe it happened once.
00:28:00
Speaker
I think it's usually because I, if I know it's not gonna go anywhere, like I said, I won't order too much where I don't feel bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 15 bucks, you know, for my whatever drink. I never order like the most expensive thing. Even if I like someone, I just like, I don't really, I feel bad about it. Maybe it's like my culture coming in. I'm the same way. Like even like with my boyfriend who I live with, I would never like order something crazy. So I'm just like,
00:28:29
Speaker
I'll stop something late. Yeah, the only time I've ever paid for a date is with my ex who, white bench it, did not have a lot of money. And so, I think- She was in love and she was very young. Yeah. I don't know. I still feel bad. I'm like, he really didn't come from money and he also wasn't going to make a lot of money for the foreseeable future. And when you care about someone, you want them to experience nice things.
00:28:58
Speaker
I'm like, I want to have Omokase, so... Oh my god, I have so many funny stories where I'm like, well, I want you to experience the Omokase, too,
Gender Generosity in Dating and Conclusion
00:29:08
Speaker
so... I swear, like, when it comes to that, girls are so much more generous than guys. Like, when the tables are turned, like, they'll just be like, oh, like, I like this, and I want you to experience something that I like, and I don't care how much it is. Whereas, like, guys would definitely complain about it to their friends. I would say most of them would.
00:29:30
Speaker
There's so much more to talk about break it into two episodes. But we definitely have some strong opinions about dating and relationships. And you guys will learn more, but we want to keep things anonymous for folks too. Yeah, thanks for tuning in, guys. As a reminder, our handles pretty invested media everywhere. We're on TikTok, YouTube, Instagram. If you enjoyed the episode, please rate us on Apple or Spotify, wherever you're listening to us. And
00:29:58
Speaker
stay pretty invested. The best investment you can make is in yourself.