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Episode 75 - Jenny Lucas on ADHD and the Power of Sonder
43 Plays1 month ago
Join hosts Martin and Paul in ADHDville as they welcome Jenny Lucas, a late-diagnosed ADHDer and autism advocate, for a heartfelt and thought-provoking conversation. This episode dives into the concept of Sonder—the profound realization that every stranger has a life as vivid and complex as your own—and how it connects to ADHD and neurodivergence.
Jenny shares her journey of discovering her ADHD and autism diagnoses in 2022, the challenges of navigating life undiagnosed, and how she’s now helping others through coaching, her podcast (Autism, ADHD, and Us Three), and her upcoming book. Together, they explore how empathy and self-awareness can transform relationships and self-perception. also, the importance of community for late-diagnosed adults and the power of sharing stories.
Tune in for a mix of humor, insight, and raw honesty as Jenny, Martin, and Paul reflect on the complexities of ADHD, the beauty of human connection, and why understanding Sonder can change the way we see the world.
Links to all things Jenny
See our beautiful faces on YouTube
Put quill to paper and send us an email at: ADHDville@gmail.com
ADHD/Focus music from Martin (AKA Thinking Fish)
Theme music was written by Freddie Philips and played by Martin West. All other music by Martin West.
Please remember: This is an entertainment podcast about ADHD and does not substitute for individualized advice from qualified health professionals.
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Transcript
Welcome to ADHDville
00:00:00
Speaker
go in the room we're in the room we're back in the room back in the room we are we are we are um yes as this is a as this is a guest episode uh let's crack straight on so let's go to the place where the distractions are landmarks and the detours are the main roads welcome to adhdville
00:00:23
Speaker
oh yeah intro music
00:00:41
Speaker
look at them, no no please, I'm pretending to be genuine.
00:00:47
Speaker
Yes. That's you now, Paul. Yes, that's me.
Hosts' Personal ADHD Stories
00:00:50
Speaker
Hello, I'm Paul Thompson. I was diagnosed with the combined ADH and another D about 16 months ago. Crazy. And I'm Martin West and I was diagnosed with combined the ADHD poopoo platter in 2013.
00:01:04
Speaker
So we're just to whom, to whom, to whomates, who mates who could by coincidence or not, we're starting well. After 39 years of friendship, discovered that we're co-ADHDers, who would have thought it?
00:01:15
Speaker
Now, it's really important to say this is an entertainment podcast, Martin, about adult ADHD and does not substitute for individualized advice for qualified health professionals. It never gets easier to say that.
00:01:29
Speaker
So don't take any advice from him or him. We're just here as a kind of all-inclusive ADHD park bench with room for everyone, including you yeah double ganglers your your alter egos, your buddy doubles, your chaperones, and even your best buddies. Yes, those as well.
00:01:45
Speaker
Oh, still here. Congratulations. congratulations You've already won yourselves a loyalty badge. Okay. So grab your jetpacks, your pedalos, your space hoppers, or any other space, any other. Wow. My God. I haven't got my teeth in today.
00:02:03
Speaker
Any other transportation methods? And let us take you to ADHDville, an imaginary town that we've created. Pedalboids. Pedalboids. Where we like to explore different parts of the A, the D, the H, and the D again.
00:02:17
Speaker
wow that was hard work. as always, um in the pub, the King's Attentive Head, um because we we aren't mares anymore. And we've lost our mayor's car, as as as we were saying earlier.
00:02:30
Speaker
So it's ah it's a guest episode. Let's go to the coffee shop, Paul. Let's bundle ourselves into the tractor. ah Let's do it. Let's it. Let's go. Let's get on that tractor.
00:02:44
Speaker
um
00:02:51
Speaker
You can tell it's been tuned this week.
Meet Jenny Glukas
00:02:53
Speaker
did We must have found some money somewhere in the budget to have our tractor tuned up. Yeah, well, I did spend half an hour under its hood. Did you? Oh, okay.
00:03:03
Speaker
Tinkering. Spark plugs. Okay. All right. and All right. I see i see Jenny Glukas, our guest. Welcome, Jenny. Hello, everybody. Welcome,
00:03:15
Speaker
Nice to see you. Nice to see you. um well I'm going to get a round of drinks in at the coffee shop. Can I can i get anyone anything while we're here?
00:03:29
Speaker
I'm going to have a green tea, by the way. um I'd love a small skinny decaf hazelnut mocha, if you wouldn't mind. Oh, okay. Very nice.
00:03:39
Speaker
Very nice. Thompson? I'm going to go for straight up espresso. Espresso. Espresso. Nice. Cool. All right.
00:03:51
Speaker
Well, I think we can just, ah while we're getting those drinks in, we can talk about what we're going to talk about today because we have like ah yes as a
Understanding 'Sonder'
00:03:59
Speaker
a subject. um So, Jenny, I was on one of your TikTok posts a while ago and you were talking about Sonder.
00:04:09
Speaker
and I love the word Sonder. Right. So I think ah think we can kind of, ah we could start off by going, What is sonda? What is sonda? Indeed, what is sonda? Indeed, is a word that I learned from an Irish friend. don't think it's an Irish word.
00:04:28
Speaker
um A good few years ago now. and it means, I'm going to read the definition that I've got in front of me. The profound feeling of realising that everyone, including strangers passing in the street, has a life as complex as one's own, which they are constantly living, despite one's personal lack of awareness of it.
00:04:47
Speaker
And you are playing a minor role in someone else's major story. Right. okay So that's a bit like for me. So so ah when my wife and I occasionally go to a a a restaurant maybe and and we'll look over a couple over there and then we'll start kind of going, oh, what does he do? What does he do?
00:05:12
Speaker
And we kind of like build out their lives and we kind of go, oh, yeah, like they they are heroes in their own Exactly. And I'm just like this. Even just for one day.
00:05:25
Speaker
i'm Right. Just for one day. And I'm just a sort of a walk-in character. Yeah. You're an extra. Exactly. Just a walk-on part.
00:05:37
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Yeah. yeah i find that really fascinating myself when i am when you sort of you know when you catch yourself in a on awareness of like being alive you have those moments where you're suddenly like whoa i'm actually really here doing this and that might be if i'm out driving for example and you're on the road with all these other people and i'm like where are you going especially if you're driving like early in the morning or late at night like where are you people going at this time of day yeah And what's going on? And how many of you are like, are you married? Are you siblings? Like, what is your relationship?
00:06:10
Speaker
What's going on in your life? what What is your destination? Why are you going there? what's going It's just like um endless questions that you can ask about other people's existence. It's fascinating.
00:06:21
Speaker
Yeah. I get this when I'm in busy places like an underground station or an airport and stuff. I get this really strong feeling, and for years, i mean literally years, don't mean three years, i mean 23 years.
00:06:36
Speaker
twenty three years No, more than that, 30 years. A sensation like, I don't know any of these people. Yeah. What's going, you know, and and is is the is the point of this really to like build sense of building empathy in a sense?
00:06:57
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Because when I put a little bit into context, I'm not sure if this helps, but but I always struggled when I was in my work rate, working um environments.
00:07:10
Speaker
I, I always thought that people just like putting up ah obstructions in front of me, like on purpose and getting in away of my objectives. Cause I had no patience. I just want to reach my job.
00:07:22
Speaker
And I just saw people as getting in the way. And I very, very little empathy. like thinking, Well, what's going on in their lives? You know, what if, right? It's always a good way to start a conversation.
00:07:37
Speaker
What if they're not doing on purpose, right? Yeah. They've just got their shit going on.
00:07:48
Speaker
Right. is that That's a great way to look at it. Yeah, that it absolutely makes sense. And I think when it comes to that sort of having awareness, when you are present enough in your own life to have the brain space to be able to be empathetic in that way, to even ask the question, what is going on? Because like you say, it can be really easy when you are busy and caught up in your own world, um trying to get places, trying to do things. Yeah.
00:08:12
Speaker
to just be irritated by the humans around us. I have to say I've yes had plenty of times like that in my own life where find the other members of the population that I'm interacting with on that day just like more annoying than anything else.
00:08:27
Speaker
But when you... start to have more capacity in your your brain and your sort of empathetic system if you like yeah you're able to take that pause before that irritation kicks in and goes and and ask those questions about you know not to the person obviously that would not be appropriate probably but like in your own mind you can almost have a pause and have that ponder for yourself ponder the sonder um what is going on for them Yeah.
00:08:58
Speaker
Yeah, right exactly. Yeah.
Jenny's Diagnosis Journey
00:09:00
Speaker
and and And it's interesting when it comes ADHD Ponder of how adh d and ponder kind of
00:09:09
Speaker
each other which is like an uh so i think this is ah actually a good segue that i should have done a little bit earlier so so you are a um you have a you're hot you have you have adhd right and you're also a autistic as as well yourself um so That's correct. I have the bonus combo pack of autism and ADHD together. I am an ADHD.
00:09:38
Speaker
Oh, boy. I don't know if I won a prize for having both, but it's ah it life makes life interesting. It's like someone went into a pick and mix and just filled the whole bag. and Okay.
00:09:49
Speaker
I'll have one of everything, please. Thanks very much. Yeah. Okay. With extra Haribo. Yeah. And like you both, I am also late diagnosed. So I did not know about my autism and ADHD until 2022.
00:10:04
Speaker
twenty twenty two So year it'll be like the three year anniversary. God, I can't believe it. ah Since finding that out about myself. And so prior to that, it wasn't really on the ah agenda or the horizon was was unaware that I had neurodivergence in my world.
00:10:21
Speaker
Okay. And ah your mum as well. Correct, yes. to Did your wee ones, I almost attempted a Scottish accent. Oh, please, Paul, don't do that. yeah little ones Your little ones, they did they kind of like, as often happens with mums and dads, they like the trick the thing that made parents think, ooh,
00:10:50
Speaker
yeah What if the parents have got ADHD too or autistic as well? Very much. It was my eldest daughter who and sort of at the time, pre-COVID times, kind of COVID-y times, was experiencing like tummy aches, quite bad tummy aches quite a lot of the time. okay And we had investigated all of that from a physical perspective. There was nothing evident there. She even had her appendix out at one point.
00:11:16
Speaker
um And then we sort of started to look more around sort of anxiety and what might be causing that. And we spoke to school and they just put a few things in place. They sort of treated her like she had a neurodiverse condition um and supported her academically in school with that.
00:11:35
Speaker
And it started to ease those issues for her. So then we saw a diagnosis or ah an assessment for her. And it turns out that she was autistic ADHD. My youngest daughter is also autistic ADHD.
00:11:48
Speaker
I'm autistic ADHD. And my husband has also then put himself forward for assessment and found out last year that he is ADHD. So we are a full spicy household over here.
00:12:00
Speaker
Fabulous.
ADHD: A Superpower?
00:12:01
Speaker
Well, I say fabulous. I mean, I mean, I say fabulous. Are you, are you, where are you on the kind of the um superpower thing with ADHD?
00:12:13
Speaker
You being, you know, in the fulcrum of an ADHD kind of, you know, was nest.
00:12:21
Speaker
and so It's a really, i think it depends on what day it is, how I feel about it. For me personally, having both, like being autistic and ADHD, now that I know what it is and have the language to describe it, I can absolutely see how they balance each other out in my brain. They're like my yin and yang. They kind of keep each other and check some like some of the time.
00:12:42
Speaker
abs And I think depending on... your circumstances in your setup, whether you're able to use the advantageous parts of it. My husband's very creative, for example. So he has a, he he's the kind of person that could be CEO that has like brilliant ideas and concepts and then would have a team of people around him to sort of make all the moving parts happen. He's the ideas guy. Like he's got the vision and he sees all those other things.
00:13:11
Speaker
But like the day to day, he then needs other people to support him with that. So if he was in the circumstances where he could let his brain just do that all the time, that would be absolutely be a superpower.
00:13:23
Speaker
But then obviously somebody else has got to be picking all the pieces. Yeah, exactly. that's That's it, I think. Yeah. So, yeah, it's it definitely the pros and cons for sure. Definitely.
00:13:39
Speaker
Yeah. but It's interesting say you say developing a language, you know. Yeah, absolutely. Give it a name to start with. Yeah. And then you learn more about it and then you start to relate that to your own experience. I'm sure you've probably had the same experiences as that and you start to have light bulb moments and you go, that's why that happened or that's why I felt like that or whatever.
00:14:01
Speaker
And then you can start to sort of I think there's a pretty universal experience that people have once they find out, especially if they're later diagnosed, that you then like go back through your timeline and go, oh, and then like all the bits and pieces sort of start to fit together, whether those are like light bulb moments or like cringe moments or whatever. It sort of all starts to come into focus a little bit better, and then you use that knowledge in your future interactions.
00:14:27
Speaker
Yeah, and just generally quite overwhelming. Massively. Oh, it's huge. 16 months into it. And i thought I thought when I started out, I think we said it on the podcast, when I started out, I thought, you know, while I'm 57, I know myself pretty well by now.
00:14:51
Speaker
Actually, I really could have done with some with some professional help, I think, hindsight. Yeah. in hindight so It's a huge thing to take on because, well, I mean, you you look back through your whole life, through your relationships, through the workplaces that you've been in, the the jobs that you've had and all of that. And there's there's a whole lot of stuff comes with it. There's like validation and acceptance. I think that kind of like, oh, wow, this makes sense. I'm so glad I've got ah yeah an answer sort of thing.
00:15:19
Speaker
But then there's like anger and grief and Because you start to think, well, how much different could my life have been if I'd had this information, if I'd had this support, if I'd known this 20 years ago? if You know what I mean? you kind of You think, well, maybe that relationship would have been different or maybe that workplace would have been different. or maybe like you know and and there's Like we said earlier on, there's lots of what ifs come up and lots of maybes and perhaps and whatever.
00:15:45
Speaker
um And there's a real sense of grief that comes with that because... It's knowledge you didn't have before and that if you'd had previously would have made a huge impact on the course of your life up to this point for sure.
00:15:58
Speaker
Yeah. And basically the quality of life could have been much better actually, not just like a little bit. Yeah. Have you found since your diagnosis that That aside, now that you have the knowledge and developing the language around it, that your quality of life is getting better now.
Improving Communication in Relationships
00:16:19
Speaker
Yeah.
00:16:20
Speaker
Absolutely. Like, I think, um you know, if you are in a relationship or even if it's like with the people around you, like your friends, like once you've once you've got some language around it and some, you know, your communication is a lot better. So ah the things that would annoy me, know, that my wife would do,
00:16:45
Speaker
now doesn't annoy me at all because oh i because she's able because we have now have a a a language and uh i i now know what what she what she means so there's a lot less friction in my life a lot less of that miscommunication I've found also because since my diagnosis, I started teaching in high school, which is like the irony of that is unbelievable given amount of problems I had with school. And from nowhere, I had 700 pupils.
00:17:29
Speaker
pupils um of which you know all kinds. The point being is that it took a while, it took some months. I started to realize that I started to um to develop a new skill that I'd never had before, which is appreciating neurotypical people without feeling challenged by it.
00:17:53
Speaker
and getting get an element of joy from it, ro truly joy. ah During the during the break but breaks between classes, I used to stand in the corridor and just stand there with a big grin on my face, watching this like life passing by of these 800, 900 different souls passing by and being able to appreciate it for the first time rather than feeling challenged by it.
00:18:20
Speaker
There you go. You're bringing it back, Paul. You're bringing it back. I was just thinking that. Hmm. so When you're in that environment, in a school environment and in particular, and I am an ex-teacher, Paul, we talked about that before, and yeah and our shared sort of experience of working with young people, which is, i mean, it truly is. that The nature of just working with young people really is an amazing thing. All the other, like, politics around it in schools and all that other so yeah stuff gets in the way.
00:18:52
Speaker
But the actual relationships that you can build with these young people and the impact that you can have on their lives as an individual is massive. And find that fascinating. Again, when you find yourself in a school building, however big that is, I've worked in schools with over a thousand children, schools with less than that.
School as a Microcosm
00:19:11
Speaker
yeah And if you ever just take a moment to think, you know, that that place that you find yourself in, this little microcosm of of the world, you know, schools themselves are little versions of... of of the world for those young people. totally And they all have individual circumstances that they are dealing with at home and their friendships, the staff that are dealing with them all have individual circumstances and their home lives, you know, and I just, that is, I could sit and ponder that all day in terms of,
00:19:42
Speaker
you know, people's upbringings, where their sort values have come from in terms of their own like family relationships, the relationships they have themselves, the way they parent their own children, if they have children, the life experiences that they've had, how they bring that into the classroom. It's just unbelievably fascinating. For me, anyway, I'm a... i'm a I was going to say I'm a people person. I don't mean that the way that people might interpret it.
00:20:11
Speaker
I find people fascinating and I find the things that people do fascinating. so um So that has that just plays into my love of Sondra, really. Right.
00:20:22
Speaker
Yeah, because I was just going to kind of say, yeah, if you are listening to this out in there in the world, that kind of like, it is good to kind of like reach out and actually be a part of a bigger community.
00:20:41
Speaker
Um, yes you know, and and i mean, obviously, you know, there's, there is us, but there's also us on TikTok. There is us on YouTube, but, but, but there are lots of other ADHD and ADHD people out there and actually kind of getting involved in, in a community and then sitting, sitting and just, ah just learning about everyone else's experiences, you know, in that kind of sonder.
00:21:08
Speaker
Yeah. and in that Sonder way where you are not the hero of the story. You're going to allow them to yeah to be the hero in their own story. know you can just kind of learn so much from each other.
00:21:20
Speaker
um It reminds me, and I think, you know, when astronauts, bear with me with this, you know, when astronauts, they go out into space and the little ship and they look back on the world and they see, you know, how tiny the world is in reality.
00:21:39
Speaker
I think some people can either be really, really challenged by that or the complete opposite and be completely liberated by it, you know? Yeah. Yeah. it just We're just one of, i know how many of us are there on the planet, nine billion, something like that. Right.
00:21:56
Speaker
And that's kind of liberating to think about. But most people, I suspect, are really challenged by it.
00:22:05
Speaker
That they need to feel like they're unique in some way. Yeah. And in fact, actually, um if yeah if you if you take that zoom out view and you zoom all the way in, um that kind of idea of everyone is like a hero in in their own stories and you're just kind of like a walk on part.
00:22:27
Speaker
Like just a small interaction with the people are around you, like a bit of kindness or a smile or, ah you know, and something can actually make their day a lot better and you can feel kind of like a little bit of a helpful part in in their lives right definitely ah see quite a lot of people sort in the social media world who want to be more visible in the social media world but they're a bit frightened, a bit scared. There's not a judgment out there. or Sometimes social media can be an unkind place to be.
00:23:05
Speaker
But I have to say that from my own experience, sort of learning about my neurodivergence, the place that I sought validation for my existence, if you like, more than anywhere else was social media.
00:23:18
Speaker
And it was people who were able to be brave enough to be honest about their experiences as an ADHD woman first. That was my sort of first thinking was ADHD.
00:23:30
Speaker
And then as I learned more about autism, like finding out about some of those traits that that resonated with me. And but that was all through people... being able to share their own experience with the world.
Social Media and Community
00:23:42
Speaker
And so there's something really beautiful about that. Just finding that little nugget of, oh, I'm just going to do this and putting it out there and somebody else going,
00:23:54
Speaker
oh yeah you've made me feel really seen like I identify with that I see that like that is just joy it's so and that's a lovely sense of community and I think online community is so valid especially for people that are maybe struggling to get out into you know in-person community online community is so valid Right.
00:24:16
Speaker
And you have, I mean, speaking of communities, you you have your own podcast. You have your own community. I do.
00:24:28
Speaker
That is correct. It's time to plug the podcast. and but That's known in professional terms. It's called a segue, Martin. Well done. It was. I segwayed for you. It's well done.
00:24:42
Speaker
There's been a couple of those already. It's brilliant. Yeah. You were sounding professional. I do have my own podcast. I started at last, it was a like at a mad thought that I had last January where I was like, do you know what? I quite fancy getting into podcasting.
00:24:56
Speaker
I quite like talking ah to myself. and then And so I thought, what better platform than na than to start a podcast? And It is called Autism, ADHD and Us Three.
00:25:10
Speaker
And it's predominantly about my journey as an ADHD parent with ADHD children. Now, it's called Us Three because my husband does not want to feature in the podcast. He he does exist.
00:25:25
Speaker
and He is part of the family unit. it wouldn't have rhymed quite as well if I'd said oh tis the way to age you know was four um but he doesn't really he you know he doesn't want to be too out there with all his bits and bobs so he's not going to be like a ah massive part of it um he's quite happy to let me to do my thing and the the both the girls are quite happy as well because I always check with them if I'm going to be talking about this would you be happy for me to share it and they I always get their like consent before we talk about anything But it was basically to sort of put something relatable out there for other people who are also in that journey because there's a lot of SEND parents out in the world and that can be a very lonely place to be if you are sort of a single parent of SEND children or even, you know, not a single parent.
00:26:08
Speaker
It's... it's a tougher than average road in parenting and the services that we have available to us certainly in England where I am are not great in terms of support for those parents so I am not a professional service from that perspective but it's just a bit of community a bit relatability and it's lovely the podcast is small and growing but I've had some comments from people who have taken the time to either message or or you know get in touch in some way and just say wow i was listening to that episode and that was so relatable like i felt seen and that was the whole reason that i'm doing it really a bit like you guys so that people out there just don't feel so alone in this journey absolutely no yeah i mean that's that's that's why paul and i
00:27:04
Speaker
got involved with this because but i mean because when we when we started it, there wasn't any late diagnosed ADHD podcast for guys. I mean, you know, I know guys who said what, but I mean, there are still a whole bunch of us. So I kind of felt like there was a little bit of a group of people that kind of needed at least two old guys to kind of go, it's okay.
00:27:33
Speaker
It's okay. It's fine. You, you, fire you, you gals, you're so much better at this than we are. Yeah. we certainly We certainly can be. Especially of a certain generation. certain generation. I know.
00:27:51
Speaker
I always struggled to get those words out of a certained generation certain generation. A certain generation, certain age. I know. But I think it's great what you guys are doing because you blazing a trail.
00:28:05
Speaker
to to coin a phrase in terms of having that openness because ah you'll know this stat i'm sure and i had forgotten it and i was reminded last week that you couldn't get in certainly in the uk don't know if this is worldwide you couldn't be diagnosed with adhd as an adult until 2008
00:28:25
Speaker
crazy So there are so many adults of all ages. I'm sure that in your parts of the world you've and you've seen all the ADHD epidemic and everyone's getting diagnosed or whatever and whatever. Because you know up until a few, not that long ago, you couldn't be diagnosed with it. So there's there's literally millions of people out there, I imagine, who are ADHD and...
00:28:55
Speaker
don't know it or suspect that they are. So, you know, there'll be there'll be loads of people your position.
Global ADHD Awareness
00:29:02
Speaker
It's easy to talk about it from a point of view of, you know, Martin's in America, you know you're in in in the UK, I'm in Italy, but, you know in Uzbekistan, in Croatia, you know, we have no idea. ah I tell you, it's An easy one for straight off the bat, ah Italy is probably seven or eight years behind the UK.
00:29:29
Speaker
Yeah. It's extraordinary how many people have never heard of ADHD. No idea. It's mind blowing. It's scary. Yeah. It's mind blowing.
00:29:40
Speaker
And if people would say that it's it's fashionable, it's not. It's just because there's a like, there's a almost mathematical equation you could do. It's like there's so under diagnosed.
00:29:52
Speaker
Yeah. It's a completely different thing. and know. Cause if, if, if someone said to me, just cold, like how many ADHD people are there in the world? I would look around at me and kind of go,
00:30:06
Speaker
but I don't know, 20%, 30%, somewhere around there. I mean, and the the actual figures that come back are somewhere like three or five or somewhere around round there, right? but But to me, in my world, it feels like there's more.
00:30:24
Speaker
Yeah. I'm sure there are more. like to play with the idea of what if it's 51%? Ha, ha, ha.
00:30:32
Speaker
Yeah. Then we are not divergent at all. We're not divergent at all. We're actually in the maturity. We're the typicals.
00:30:42
Speaker
Yeah, we are. That's a strange thought. We've become neurobege all of a sudden. I know. That's funny. um But it's interesting though, isn't it? when you and When you get your diagnosis and you learn more about it, you develop almost like a kind of neurodiversity dar and you can start to see in other people traits and things and you oh, I think your might be a little bit spicy. And you know what you were saying then, Martin, about like...
00:31:11
Speaker
it feels in your world like, gosh, it feels like there's loads of people. And I think that's, you know, we do attract a like kind in terms of like friends. Look at the two of m Magnets. You know, and who would have?
00:31:26
Speaker
I did not say that. more for magnet than I am. but but It's much more sticky. its It's that idea that you know you you do a attract like for like. So it will ah will feel like you know loads of people that could fall onto one of the spectrums.
00:31:44
Speaker
when you took You taught at school, right? Jenny sure did you know and you you look at I've at my school just giving up another reference point about Italy no one's no one's talking about it at school not the teachers aren't talking about the head teachers no one and i said to them well how many cases of adhd or or autism do you have at school none they say none sorry what no this is school with 1200 pupils oh but on no cases oh my god yeah okay yeah
00:32:25
Speaker
You must have at at least 100, 200 there. two hundred and Exactly. but Because you see them, right? You go back to what you said before, Jenny. you you you have You develop such a ah um ah well you know a really ah sensitive radar.
00:32:42
Speaker
And he just like it's like, bing, bing, like little you know likely like the like the Google map pins you like popping up all over the yeah front of Yeah.
00:32:53
Speaker
oh we You mean mean like when you sort look out at all your kids, you're kind of going, yeah, probably you, definitely you. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, they come to me. Because kids are even more sensitive than we are.
00:33:09
Speaker
They come to me. but Yeah. You're a lighthouse for all the ADHD children in your school. Yeah, exactly. They stopped me in the corridor. There's two girls last week, bless their cotton socks.
00:33:22
Speaker
They stopped me in the corridor last week because they've got a problem with one of their boyfriends who's become a bit of a stalker. so and it's and And i just, this trust they had with me, like telling me their story, it was just incredible, you know.
00:33:38
Speaker
And you'd think, well, they could probably guess that, you know, Prof Thompson isn't like the other profs, you know. That's what they call me. They call Prof Thompson.
00:33:49
Speaker
Prof Thompson, very nice. Yeah. I'm not actually a real prof because I haven't got a degree, but they call me prof.
00:34:00
Speaker
um'm um Yeah, I'm not even that. I'm just like, hey, you. That's what people, that's what I get called.
Perfectionism and Procrastination
00:34:07
Speaker
are you? I did actually think, just kind of bringing us back onto the Sonder thing, because I was thinking,
00:34:17
Speaker
um You know this thing about perfect perfectionism, like when you're kind of like, you know, everything has to be perfect, right? I don't know. Is this is this something that that you're afflicted with, breathed Jenny, like this perfectionism?
00:34:41
Speaker
I can be. i have I'm not so much anymore because I've become aware of it. And ah perfectionism is just, well, it's a form of procrastination and it's it's a protector part of your psyche.
00:34:56
Speaker
It wants to keep you safe from something. Failure, obviously, is the big one. And so if things aren't if things aren't perfect, I won't hand them in, I won't do them, therefore I won't fail. I...
00:35:07
Speaker
so i don't anymore so much suffer with perfectionism, if you will, because I've learned about what role it plays in my life. And I've come to have some sort of acceptance with actually nobody's perfect.
00:35:21
Speaker
No one's really expecting me to be perfect. And what's the worst thing that could happen if this is the best I can do? and So I am not so afflicted by that anymore. But I know that many people do struggle with that quite a lot.
00:35:36
Speaker
Right, because I tend to – because was thinking on this kind of with my sondar glasses on. Yeah. I thinking, right, well, if I'm doing something for someone or whatever – they don't look at me and what I'm doing with anywhere near as critical eye as I do.
00:36:00
Speaker
no And in fact, you know, they care a lot less. So rather than giving 100%, could still give 60% and that would still be absolutely fine in their world.
00:36:15
Speaker
they don't yeah they They care about it way less than I do. Oh, definitely. my um My youngest daughter actually gave a ah really good example of that, sort of honing in on yourself.
00:36:26
Speaker
And it's so interesting being the parent of girls in particular because they sort of have this really self-critical eye of themselves and the way that they present in the world.
00:36:38
Speaker
And so I was walking my youngest to school this morning and she was wearing like a navy blue hoodie, a navy blue joggies, navy blue jacket. And she noticed this new pair of joggies she was wearing she went mommy these are a different color of blue to my hoodie they're like a brighter blue and she'd noticed the difference in the color she went it makes my hoodie look black except when I wear black leggings it makes my hoodie look blue and she was really conscious of the different tone and the color between these two things that she was wearing and I actually had this conversation with her on the way into school that kind of you've really noticed that because you're wearing those clothes and you're really aware of it
00:37:16
Speaker
I said, just think about how caught up you are in noticing the colours in your own clothes. Everybody else in the classroom is going to be that caught up about something to do with them. So they're not going to notice the difference in the blues between your hoodie and your joggies because they're all caught up with something equally important to them in their own worlds. And I've no idea whether that landed with a nine-year-old.
00:37:38
Speaker
and But it's it's fascinating, you know, when we, especially with things like a appearance, and we get so caught up about how do I look in this thing or how does my face look or this spot that I've got or whatever.
00:37:50
Speaker
And most of the time, everybody else is so worried about their thing that they don't notice your thing that you're worried about. Yeah. Is it possible to think that with ADHD, we grow up with subconsciously the idea we've got to be slightly better than everyone else?
00:38:07
Speaker
Oh, yeah, because I think you hold that... make for you know this yeah you know subconscious idea that we have we're deficient. Oh, definitely. think, i mean, there's a statistic that says that by the time...
00:38:22
Speaker
I believe, I'm going to probably butcher this, that by the time children reach 11 years old, they've already heard 20,000 more negative things about themselves than they have their exact neurotypical peers. yeah And so it's hardwired end into us that we are constantly getting think things wrong. Our very existence means that we're probably going to fuck something up and get it wrong.
00:38:40
Speaker
um so we are like that sort of idea and that drive that we're constantly working harder than everybody else to just appear sort of presentable just keep that's definitely thing yeah just to keep up definitely yeah me yeah all right yeah so just talking about i know i know <unk> me i know Yeah, so I mean, like ah I like that kind of just looking at other people's lives and just trying to imagine how they look at you. But it can it could it can also go the other way so that actually if you if you're not great ah at at boundaries, that kind of idea of Sonder, of kind of going into their lives,
00:39:32
Speaker
And it's almost like it's almost like you tap into your own empathy and that's cool and great, but but but it can kind of like, it can also take it out of you as well. like It can also kind of like overload you if you get too into other people and yeah yes not managed manage to set your own boundaries.
00:39:59
Speaker
Definitely. We're so used to it internalizing everything and then you end up over externalizing. and Empathy is a tool that, you know, is it has to be really carefully managed.
00:40:12
Speaker
You can't just like flatline everything. you know, empathize for everyone because then you get really, it's dangerous, right? it' it's It's difficult. I have to say that was one of the main reasons why i didn't think I could be autistic.
00:40:26
Speaker
Talking about stereotypes was the stereotype that autistic people can't be empathetic, aren't empathetic, struggle to understand other people's circumstances. And I thought, well, that's not me because I'm hyper empathetic.
00:40:38
Speaker
can find myself empathetic. well, what I imagine to be slipping into the shoes of somebody else's experience and thinking, oh my gosh, what would that feel like if that happened in my life? You know, and you sort of almost feel the emotions for that other person.
00:40:52
Speaker
um And that is very draining. You're right, Paul, because you're... you're you are It's almost like maladaptive daydreaming. You're like taking on all of these thoughts about something that they're not happening to you, they're not happening in the real world and your life in that moment.
00:41:09
Speaker
But it's using all the same resources as if it was happening to you in that moment. And is. It's tough. It is having awareness of that and then having tools to sort of snap you back out of it is really important. and Overcompensating.
00:41:23
Speaker
and Yeah. And, you know, you you could be standing there trying to empathise for someone that really couldn't give a damn whether you empathise with them or not. Yeah.
00:41:34
Speaker
and know they might even deserve it, but often not. But, you know, developing that tool, I think I developed that tool quite late in life. I think for many, many years, especially before my diagnosis, I like ah was very much capable of flip-flopping between being very empathetic and having zero flat-line empathy, yeah you know, and not having much control over it.
00:42:04
Speaker
What's the point? no I can i agree. I identify with that. Absolutely. That that idea. And you you almost sort of think, am I like, am I like, am I a psychopath? Like, how come I can feel that all these feelings in one minute and then in the next minute be dead inside, cold as stone? Yes.
00:42:24
Speaker
um And again, I think that it comes down to your own levels of capacity. And I think when you've reached a point of overwhelm, you then lose the ability to empathize because you haven't you just don't have the emotional bandwidth for it anymore. Yeah.
00:42:40
Speaker
yeah So before we kind like go off the Sondar thing and the main, ah this main section, I guess, is is there anything else that you that you didn't get to? I just want to kind of make sure that we're not missing anything from you before I i crack on with the next thing.
00:43:05
Speaker
No, I just, I love the concept of, because I find people fascinating, the, like, people, I'd like to say that I'm a people watcher. I think I've heard quite a few people describe themselves as people watchers. yes And it's a really lovely were to spend some time is to be in a, you know, not it doesn't need to be a busy public space, but just and ah in a space where there are other people and just imagine, just let your sort of imagination run wild. And it's really lovely to almost feel that sense of being a part of something without actually having to physically interact with it at the time. I think as an ODHD, I get a lovely sense of sort of almost like socialization from that because ah can sort of be with people but not have to be in the company of people, if you know what i mean. And that I think that's lovely for me. too
00:43:58
Speaker
That's interesting. Right. Yeah, no, I like that. I generally go through life as if I always, if before my diagnosis, I always describe myself as being an all or nothing person.
00:44:12
Speaker
Yeah. Right. So it's not like... all empathy or no empathy, you know, and actually developing the skill to actually dose it, you know, and be aware of your empathy, Yeah. your empathy microdosing Yeah. yeah Where it's needed, where it's not, you know, yeah where it's welcome. It's where it's very much not welcome at all.
00:44:37
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Nice. Okay. Interesting. I know. So I think we can get onto the, Actually, yeah, we'll get on to the next bit, which is um which is everyone who comes on, they can they can have a they can set up a shop or a store or a thing or a place in ADHDville.
00:45:03
Speaker
ah We had a Vanessa on last week and she had a music store. should be in there a lot. Me too. In the percussion section.
00:45:19
Speaker
We've also got a vinyl shop. We've got a... um Theme park from the Maddie. yeah ye Bookshop. Secondhand bookshop. So, A.K. Steville is thing out.
00:45:31
Speaker
But to where would you what would you like to kind of stake your claim? I'd love to have had a music shop, actually, now that you say that, but um as a former music teacher, so I would i would love to go and visit the music shop, actually, and the vinyl shop would be amazing. But I would like to have and what I'm going to call a self-care centre, so like a sort of almost like a meditation zone like a place where people can come and sonder um we can come and sort of be with others and have a sort of quiet safe space to to be with other people but no pressure for interaction so i would i would like to have a space like that please i don't have a name for it though oh that's good it's like the center with no name
00:46:22
Speaker
It's just like a place that you know. It's just like a thing. It's over there. You know where it is. I'll tell you what it's like. In Reading, which is where I'm near, there's a place called the Biscuit Factory.
00:46:35
Speaker
And it's this lovely place. It's got a it's got a little cinema inside. But it's got a nice cafe area where they've got different types of like board games. and it attracts quite a lot of neurodivergent people who like to just come in grab a coffee there's like sofas bean bags and you can just come in and just hang out by yourself grab a book get whatever play some solitaire um or like groups of people come in and they might do a round of D&D or they might like do some group board games and stuff together and it's just a really nice safe space there's like leaflets for the stuff that's going on locally events and concerts and art fairs and stuff
00:47:13
Speaker
So I want it to be like that kind of hangout, a safe hangout space for people come in and get coffee, but not the coffee shop. It sounds like, Martin, we would to need to get our act together in terms of investment and get these places built.
00:47:28
Speaker
Well, yeah. Well, they are and in my mind. ah okay. In my mind. In my mind. Exactly. Okay.
00:47:39
Speaker
so Wonderful. what i So what we're all going to do is we're all going to pile into the tractor. and we can Onto the tractor? You can't get into the tractor. Oh, no, you can with some of these modern ones.
00:47:52
Speaker
I think our one's quite old. Does it have an It is a little bit old. It doesn't have a have a roof, so when it rains, it is a little... It is a little... We're going to have to perch onto it all. We're going have to perch. We're going to have to perch.
00:48:09
Speaker
Yeah. right Sounds always dangerous. Back to the pub, and then we'll just kind of like... We'll just have a... Have a have a goodbye drink. in the Nice.
00:48:22
Speaker
So we'll pile in. Let's go. Oh, no.
00:48:29
Speaker
Hang on. Hang Oh, Jesus. we've let Paul's been left left behind. All right. You've no idea. That's my most reoccurring dream is being left behind.
00:48:44
Speaker
I'm not fit in the tractor. Yeah. is Oh, poor lad. Poor lad. It's usually Martin driving it. Yeah, going, ha, ha, ha, you'll never know where I'm going. Yeah, exactly. You'll never take me alive. I'll wave at you as I'm just driving off into the distance.
00:49:02
Speaker
Waving but not even looking back. running faster than the tractor, to be honest. It's not going very fast. it's Yeah, I know. It is a good job that that the in ADHD world, the coffee shop is right next to the pub, so...
00:49:15
Speaker
Yes. Handy. So we don't have to go Well designed. All right. So – actually, this is a good point to say that you have a podcast, so people can go and jump on that.
00:49:33
Speaker
yeah You also do – we do like one-on-one coaching – I do, do one-on-one coaching. Yeah, I am an ODHD sort of self-discovery and confidence coach for those of us out there who are late diagnosed and struggling to sort breathe, I think, under the weight of all that information, particularly for, I've actually got a book coming in. I'm going to plug that.
00:50:01
Speaker
I was going to plug that after this. Okay. Okay. it it pleases It plays nicely together um and so much as that like first year, as you know yourself, oh for that first of year, 18 months post-diagnosis can be really foggy in terms of like trying to work through all those different bits and pieces of information that come up and all the things that you learn about yourself and how do you apply that to your life and who are you under the mask and all of that jazz.
00:50:27
Speaker
and That is what i support people to figure out through my coaching. Oh, so there you go. And you have a book coming out. do have a book coming out yes in october i think isn't it it is in october yeah yeah so it's uh it's the 28th of october so it still feels pleasantly far into the distance at the moment and in march um but yeah that is going to be a guide that have a working title that i'm not sharing at this moment in time because it's still probably going to change
00:50:58
Speaker
um But it is to support ah women in particular in that first year post diagnosis to get some support because there's nothing really out there in terms of our local services here, certainly.
00:51:11
Speaker
um And again, it's that community building, that sense of validation, not being alone. Other people have trod this path and I'm going to be OK. So it is to support people with that overwhelming feeling of, oh, my God, what do I do now?
00:51:25
Speaker
and help them sort of feel a bit less alone. ah so pat So perhaps in a no October, that would be a good time to maybe come back. I'll tell you about it because I might have decided that I should have decided the title or by then, hopefully.
00:51:41
Speaker
right ah Right. Okay, the book with no name, a bit like your pop-in centre. My venue. center Pop-in centre with no name. Yeah.
00:51:52
Speaker
Okay. yeah because ah Excellent. because ah good What would point to your links, ah you know, links of everything um with your – In the show notes. In the show notes, definitely. And in the comments, yeah, we we shall link everything up like proper professional people.
00:52:11
Speaker
ah Proper professional podcasters. prop Yeah. The three Ps. um i I think we've got like three segues in a whole episode.
00:52:22
Speaker
That's a record. ah nice I know. i've i've I I know. I feel kind of good about all that. um I did actually think, Paul, you know, and know this is – slightly just going off a little bit but but but you're saying Jenny did that you know that there should be something for when you get uh when you get diagnosed diagnosed there's like something there for the first year almost like a year and a half to kind of like help you kind of on the uh get you on the on on ramp of yeah of your of your new diagnosis yeah um
00:53:01
Speaker
yeah um Yeah, four four four women. was just thinking, yeah, it's like, Paul, where's our book? Where's our book? Exactly. Where's your international men's day? Men.
00:53:15
Speaker
Yes. Book. Yes. where See, in my head, it would be mostly cartoons and funny funny group funny little scenes and characters and graphics.
00:53:32
Speaker
Oh, okay. does that's That's how i I think ours would be because I know that, you know, like, you know, you would read a book because it's all kind of written words, but I think ours would just be an interactive diary.
00:53:47
Speaker
it would Yeah, it would be it would be like something that you – it would almost be like a collection of cartoons almost with bits of copy around it.
00:54:00
Speaker
yeah That's what I'm thinking. It sounds like a frivolous excuse to get published. well Get that written. get That sounds like a great idea. Every good idea starts as a joke.
00:54:14
Speaker
i After 35 years of coming up with ideas, all the best ideas start as a joke. yeah Yeah. No, it sounds it sounds like a plan. It's a plan.
00:54:25
Speaker
Okay. All right, Paul. Yes. All right. right It is a plan. We should do that. I know a good publisher case you need one. ah Okay. Let's put that on a post-it note. Yeah. and that And that we'll sort of ignore for about two years.
00:54:39
Speaker
Yes. but no ah don't listen li Let's, let you know, i've kind of let's make it happen. Yeah.
00:54:51
Speaker
I'm a massive believer in making things happen. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's kind of do the – can you do your little post bag bit, Mr. Oh, hello.
00:55:03
Speaker
Yes. Hang on. so ah So, yes, so your feedback is vital to us. What a beautifully – so smoothly running into this section.
00:55:15
Speaker
Your feedback is really vital to us. We clang. We read all the comments, and we might read yours out on a future podcast. Ta-da. Like this one from – have we got like something in the postbag?
00:55:32
Speaker
Oh, okay. Like this one. um i'm I'm looking at my and but but my phone. So last week we had an interview with ah Vanessa, a.k.a. Wet Spaghetti. um Boy, that was a ride.
00:55:45
Speaker
that was but That was a ride. Oh, yeah. That was a bag of fun. ah And we have ah one from Melie Mel, mel-x9r.
00:55:57
Speaker
Well done, Vanessa. And guys, I enjoyed your podcast. Kiss, kiss. I know. Very nice. And we had ah alex Alexander, ah yes, who said ah who who said a beautiful episode and wrote a very long paragraph, um which is awesome.
00:56:14
Speaker
So, yeah. So don't forget to like, subscribe, comment, get involved. And, oh, Paul, i haven't even told you this. but oh started I've started stack.
00:56:27
Speaker
I've started a substack, right? Yes. um So substack, are you aware of substack, Mr. T? Not particularly. Jenny? I know of the expression, but I've never really got into it.
00:56:41
Speaker
It's really for the written word. So it's it's really for like medium and long format writing. It's very popular because it also has loads of other interactive bits.
00:56:54
Speaker
So what I thought was, was the ADHD-ville, it should have a newspaper. so ah So I've invented the ADHD Times.
00:57:05
Speaker
Yes. Newspaper, which I'll link onto the substack. And that has, and and I've started to write that. So that has a a lot of other ADHD information and fun things.
00:57:20
Speaker
going on where do our does our lovely public find that stuff uh if you if you go to sub stack and just look for adhdville we will pop oh okay oh okay but um but if if if you want to do like an in so much did so yeah so jenny that that might be another platform it is a quite a big growing platform now so and and it's for the written word so it feels like somewhere where you could also you know uh you know copy paste bits from your bits from your book maybe build up a little bit of a following there because that's because there's a lot of writers there um what what is the point of sub stack what is there like a parallel something similar to sub stack
00:58:10
Speaker
Is it like a blogging? Is it like web? What's that called? WordPress. It is like WordPress. It's a little bit when a blogging started up back in the 90s.
00:58:24
Speaker
Yes. But, yeah, so it's much more longer. Yeah. more longer format Okay, the long form. Although I just write about a thousand words, so it's not not that long.
00:58:40
Speaker
But, yeah. It's another interesting place to hang out. Nice. you Paul's dying. Oh, no. we are we are We are now down to the me being the host of the podcast.
00:58:54
Speaker
Wait, I've got a substack. It was a substack stuck in my throat. Substack.
00:59:02
Speaker
Oh, boy. All right. Well, I am going to hit the auto button, Mr. T. um Yes. And we're going rock towards the end.
00:59:14
Speaker
um Okay. Where's the button? There it is. Ah, right. So that just leaves it to me to clang into saying ADHDville is delivered fresh every Tuesday to all purveyors of fine podcasts. Please subscribe to the Moderator's Most Magnificent. And feel free to comment in the comments.
00:59:34
Speaker
ah And you can also see us. um Oh, yeah. But wait, there's more. That's what I'm supposed to say. You can see our beautiful, beautiful faces. All of us. All three of our beautiful faces. All three of us.
00:59:47
Speaker
on on On the but on the beautyp YouTubes. And we're also we're also on TikTok as well. And if you want to, pick up a quill. And you can email us at ADHDville at gmail.com. But in the meantime, be fucking kind to yourself.
01:00:03
Speaker
and I beseech you fellow ADHDers know thyself sons of the hounds come hither and get the flesh And it just reminds to me, goodbye to Jenny. Thank you for being on the show. Thank you oh my my eyes so guys. Loved it. Total pleasure.
01:00:20
Speaker
That was a lovely conversation. in fact If I just had... it fact If I'd had a
01:00:33
Speaker
Or a cheese platter.
01:00:38
Speaker
There, says the mayor. That's that.