Transcript
Speaker: Oh, back in the room. Back in the room. in the room. Back in the room. Back in the room. And this week, we are going to be talking about ADHD and cults.
Speaker: Yes, we are. So, fun subject. ah So, let's go to the place where the distractions and landmarks and the details are the main roads. Welcome to ADHDville. Welcome.
Speaker: Take it all you've got me
Speaker: Culty-cults. Culty-cult-cults. Culty-cults. Yes, they are. Hello, I'm Paul Thompson. I was diagnosed with the combined ADH and the D crawling towards a bunch of, well, a pair of years ago.
Speaker: pair? A bunch of pairs. A deuce. A deuce of years. And I'm Martin West, and I was diagnosed with the combined ADHD poo-poo platter in 2013.
Speaker: twenty thirteen And we start off as... We have been recently um in the King's Agitated Pub. King's Agitated Head Pub.
Speaker: Yes, King's Agitated your Head Pub. Sorry. Okay. The head, but it's important. Thank you. Thank you for that correction. um and Yeah, and as as the ex-mayors of ADHDville, we ah sit at the back here, ah sit around the table, and enjoy a drink, of which I'm...
Speaker: drinking ah green tea, as always, mostly. Yeah, I've got a kind of like a barley coffee thing. Wait, sorry, barley coffee?
Speaker: Barley coffee. so make Okay. know if it's available in other countries, but it's this there's like an alternative to coffee made out of barley.
Speaker: Okay, so it's like roasted toasted barley. Yeah, toasted barley. Okay, all right. i put But put in little bit of coffee, real coffee, and then i'm a bit of almond milk.
Speaker: Okay. It's nice. Wow, all right. I'm loving that for you. um Right, well, the let's go. bit a chat there about alternatives to coffee. would have thought Yeah, no, I'm i'm and into it.
Speaker: um All right, so um I think where we're going to go and talk about cults is... I think we're going to the bunker. What's it called? There's a cellar under this pub.
Speaker: Oh, right, where they keep the barrels. Yeah, where they keep the barrels. ah So I kind of thought it was kind of like a little secret little secret load location and then we have to take the elevator down so let's okay let's let's let' let's go and get in the elevator there we go get in squeeze in squeeze in whistle oh when i'm in elevators i have this instinct to whistle it's bigger than me bigger and stronger than me i have to whistle
Speaker: All right. Okay. That's fun.
Speaker: be um Oh, blimey. This is a long way down. i didn't realise quite... Oh, here we go. That's got to be one way down, Paul. That's what?
Speaker: 70, 80 metres. that is That is a fair distance down. All right. Well, let's just ah find out find a little seat in amongst all the barrels, the cobwebs. I think we've got a couple of stalls.
Speaker: Mm-hmm. Right. Well, I thought we would start off with what we mean by a cult because it's quite easy to kind of like, you know, you be you think of cults and you think of sort the religious cults usually but but actually um the interesting thing about cults is that yes while they do have a many of them have a religious kind of part but there's also some cults of ideas and just you know cults that exist outside of
Speaker: um outside of religion so I'm just going to that and then we're going to get into why are ADHD people susceptible to joining a cult.
Speaker: um So the first thing, ah core features of a cult authoritarian leadership. So like like a single charismatic leader or an elite group that claims absolute awful authority that you can't question.
Speaker: There's also like a... but About 10% of the cult leaders are female. Only 10%. 90% are male. That doesn't surprise me.
Speaker: No, it doesn't. Yeah. Yeah. that's in That's an interesting stat. I love that. I love that you jumped in there with with that. I thought that was... I'm your stats man today, Martin. like there Oh, nice.
Speaker: By the numbers. um my There is also like a sacred or an ultimate truth. So that's like where the group claims exclusive access to ah to truth or salvation or healing or enlightenment.
Speaker: um There's also an us versus them mentality where the outside world is portrayed as dangerous or wrong or inferior or evil. Or evil.
Speaker: Yeah. Or, that you know, where where doubters and leavers are shunned. Shunned, I tell you. um There is also a high cost for...
Speaker: oh There's a high cost over over members. That means like there's there's a a a a control that may include behavior, thoughts, emotions, and information. So they really want to kind of...
Speaker: oo Yeah, they they they really want to kind of control. And that and that's also like, um yeah, there's also an isolation part where members are encouraged or forced even to ah disconnect from friends and family in the mainstreams.
Speaker: society at some point during that whole thing you know like where there's like an us and them kind of mental mentality i think the control is like the key word isn't it as ever you know is they But the thing is, control for for a lot of people and what they the kind of people that these people prey on, these groups prey on, is I think the the element, there's some people, and this is where i think ADHD comes in, that it can be quite appealing, that control, that you've got a whole bunch of you know set of beliefs that you don't have to think about. Someone else could think about them for you.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. it's like It's a massive chunk of your like brain. don't think and ah maybe avoid overthinking, all of these kind of traits. Right, absolutely.
Speaker: um There's also a demand for total commitment. So whether it's your time, your your money, as you said earlier, energy and both and loyalty must be fully integrated.
Speaker: devoted to the group so you basically just like all your resources and your and your and your and your commitment is really strong also there's also they use manipulative and coercive tactics so love bombing at the start right so like they're all about you they want to help you they're all into you you know um you know then comes on the guilt the fear punishment yeah gaslighting you to maintain obedience yeah so it's starting to sound like like a group form of a narcissism know right you know right i mean you know yeah yeah no like there there is a sort of um
Speaker: I was thinking about this, which is like, how small can you get a cult, right? How small can you make one? And ah did think if you were involved in a narcissistic relationship, yeah that you could argue...
Speaker: the under the dead Under the definitions of a cult, it ticks lot of those boxes. You are in a cult of two people. Yeah. yeah You're in the cult of the narcissist. So, yeah, yeah. I mean, like, that they do a lot of this. A narcissist will demand total loyalty, and any other anything other than total loyalty for them is is be betrayal, you know. Right.
Speaker: Right. I mean, if I just even go go so, you know, that they they see themselves as a charismatic person, um you know, they may feel like they've got access to, you know, that they're better, they have act and that smarter than you and they have access to, like, you know, to to the ultimate truth. There's definitely an us versus them mentality, right?
Speaker: They will... Ultimate truth, you know. Right. Ultimate truth. I mean, it's... Yeah, they exert isolation, her high control over overview. Yeah, no fish and total commitment, corrosive. Yeah, I mean, all of these ah punishment for ditists punishment for dissent. it's like if you, and especially if you leave, like there is a high exit cost.
Speaker: Yes. um You know, and and yeah also, you know, like you can't question the group or the, you know, like you just can't question any of it. And if you do, then yeah you all yeah you are punished. some Some get around it by not actually...
Speaker: making it They leave a cult, but not necessarily actually pronounce that they're leaving a cult. They just do without actually saying to anyone and what they've left or who they've left.
Speaker: And they get around it in that way. And you can definitely see that in right wing politics in this country. There's a lot of right wing people who are, you know, like, want to say the cult of MAGA.
Speaker: But a lot of people call it that, don't they? it has It does seem, it does sound and look and feel and smell like a cult. It is.
Speaker: It is. Because it it comes around, these these things happen, they prey on people who, they ah um for for most, vast proportion people, people need something to believe in, something or someone to believe in.
Speaker: it's ah It's a natural instinct of being human. Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, I mean, that's all over my TikTok is basically how currently the the the people are leaving the cult not by saying it out loud, but just, you know, that there's a crack in the programming that kind events that are going on at the moment has kind of like sowed this seed, which is,
Speaker: where they are leaving quietly, as you say. Yeah. It's just kind of like don't say anything. but Yeah. It's just go. There was there's a couple of, I think it was John Paul Sartre who said that he was worried about the breakdown of the kind of traditional church beliefs.
Speaker: Yeah. and structure is that people will look for another something else to believe in and that could be dangerous for a while, you know, as the kind of traditional church ah belief system collapsed.
Speaker: Right, because there are people, like, and I've seen i've seen it with with other people, where they'll leave one cult and go into another thing that is very culty.
Speaker: Yeah. because Because they kind of, that structure... They kind of like, and then they leave one cult and they end and then they end up falling into and into another one.
Speaker: Straight after. ah for so and For some people, cult could be, you know, it could be just something they get obsessed about. ah know is this sort obsession is a big part of it which you know starts to go like go into um adhd kind of uh language obsession let's let's so should we get into why adhd people might in have an increased susceptibility to cuffs now yeah uh I did ask, so um there is, ah don't know whether you've been on TikTok, but there's the, I think we've talked about this before, the knitting cult lady, diana ah dan Daniela Young, um which is a cult author and expert, and she was brought up in the Children of God cult.
Speaker: and she's wrote written a few books, and I was having a very brief ah comments chat with her because she's also neurodivergent as well, as I was saying. Oh, interesting.
Speaker: So I asked her, did she think that being neurodivergent that made us more susceptible to being in a cult? And she said, yes, yes.
Speaker: she She believed that that that it did, and then she added on Interestingly, as um that we are that she thinks that we are also the first out.
Speaker: as well oh okay so maybe because of pattern recognition you like see you can see from so i thought we would kind of talk about that as as as as as well um afterwards um so we'll kind of get into that as well like i thought that was interesting and So, I mean, on the always do you do you do you have a list or do you have anything
Speaker: that kind of that can kick us off on that why ADHD might increase susceptibility in cults? Or I can go. ah just well of only one thing really is that I mean, ah I've kind of discovered that, especially after my ADHD diagnosis, is that I felt part of it ah felt part of a community for the first time in my life, you know.
Speaker: i mean, truly, I never, ever felt part of anything. ah Maybe briefly, if you know, if I went to a football match and I supported the same team, but it would never be on that.
Speaker: So you can understand for people that they feel when you're, especially when you're a little bit more, um when you're younger and you're adolescent years, you're more susceptible to, to, you know, this kind of controlling of ideas that some people will do to get you into a cold.
Speaker: You can understand the appeal of like, Oh, they're going to help me feel like part of a tribe. Right. You know, no. And that's that could be really appealing, attractive. Oh, no, exactly. Because ah I will just just say that no one joins a cult, right?
Speaker: That's not how things work. You don't don't go in and join a cult. What you do is there is always a front end of it, which feels like it's doing good, right? So it's either doing good for you Like you're in a bad place and you need some help and guidance or you want to learn some new skills or it's a charity thing and you're helping kids or something. So there's always like a front end which feels like it's it's a but it's it's going to be a benefit to you or to something that you care about.
Speaker: And then it's only later as you get more involved in it that you get kind get sucked in. um Yeah. But yeah, I totally agree that people with ADHD and in fact, know, autism is worse, not just not just ADHD, but and that we do feel like outsiders in our society anyway.
Speaker: right yeah so we're not so we so we kind sense of belonging you know is i suppose the thing you know that yeah that some people really crave for right you know and we and we feel ah isolated and and and alone and they can come along and go look as you say exactly as you say come and come and join our tribe like you know we're doing some good things over here we can help you we yeah yeah and you kind of go oh okay yeah yeah all right well that's gonna give you a belief system you know Right. I mean, it doesn't even like. So you don't have to think about it
Speaker: Right. Well, yeah, and and that I think it especially applies to if you're looking for answers, right? So yeah there are certain stages in your life where you're like, you're having an existential crisis. And I think we will come on to the story of us and us and cults, as it were.
Speaker: um But yeah, i'm I was definitely in a place where I was looking for answers. like i Yeah, I i totally have written something similar. Yeah. Yeah. We just happened to be, we were, we were, by that time, we'd already been friends for 15 years, i suppose, something like that.
Speaker: But we both happened to be in the same place at the same time. You know, we're like in a bit of a difficult kind of stage of our yeah lives. Yeah. Our lives. Yeah.
Speaker: and so There's also another thought, which is like, um yeah, as you say, that you know this this dependency on structure. so So many of us crave, as you say, an external system that will help us regulate our behavior and control.
Speaker: give us answers and make things, know, give us some routines and give us something clear that we can hang on to. Which is what traditional church, if traditional religions do other than cults.
Speaker: You know, religions give you a a belief system, the Bible, you know, the scriptures. It's a belief system. like, oh, we've we've sorted out for you you. don't have to think about anything. Just come in, you know, and, right you know, take a pew. Right.
Speaker: Take a pew. Literally take a pew. Literally take a pew. Yeah. I will, just this for clarity, I will say that that religion in itself isn't a cult. Religion is is like an idea or a philosophy, but cults yeah definitely live and in within that itself.
Speaker: um there's There's some similar dynamics in there, definitely. Yeah. Oh, yeah. um There's also this kind of like, um ah there's a bit of a black and white thinking under under stress, right? So this kind of, I think this matches, which is like under pressure or when we're sort of emotionally dysregulated, our ADHD brains may slide into binary thinking like,
Speaker: you know, like I, I need like that when we're in chaos, like I, I need black and white thinking. I need like to go this way, not that way. I need, yes you know, like the, so example, so, yeah so, and then that's a kind of like a very,
Speaker: Cults like to do that. They like black and white thinking. and And when you're yeah emotionally dysregulated, it can be like a sort of a magnet, right? Like, oh, okay, over here, there's, matter as you as you say, like I can, okay, someone's going to give me that structure, that black and white thinking, and I can just, okay, I can just follow that.
Speaker: and that Which is exactly what happens. You're talking about emotional dysregulation. It's exactly what happens when adolescents are going through where the um hormones, you know, like all kinds of emotional dysregulation going on, which is exactly why we're particularly um um prone to be attracted by the idea of cult or religion.
Speaker: Um, in those years and exactly why, for example, in non-religious, what is kind of cult in a way, the, the youth, a Hitler youth movement, you know they, their main recruitment was, um, in with that adolescents and the same happened in revolutionary China.
Speaker: ah All the dirty work was done by adolescents creating havoc. Because that's the time, as you say, with emotional dysregulation, like, oh, give me something to believe in. Give me some clarity, you know, in this chaos that I'm currently living through, you know.
Speaker: Yeah. And also at the early stages of dancing with a cult, if you like, is that there is a lot of dopamine hits that come from it.
Speaker: Like exciting to be in it. That's true. And yeah ah yeah you get like a good... group vibe, but, but, but also, you know, like you feel like you're getting help and you, and you get these kinds of sort dopamine hits from, some from, from, um, feeling like, you know, like you're doing good things yeah for you or for other people or whatever. So it's, there's a lot of kind of, you know, like the, there are emotional highs,
Speaker: Right. I would say yeah like, yeah. in In those early stages where it's like you, you, you, euphoric, right. You kind of have these kind of euphoric moments. But I think the image, as you're talking, as you're saying that images come to mind, I don't know why, but anyway, I'll put it.
Speaker: out there anyway, ah the image has come to me of like a beehive with the queen bee in the middle. And you think that you've got like some sort of existential, um, kind of end game that's going to benefit you and, you know, the wider community.
Speaker: Actually, you're just feeding the queen bee in the middle of the hive in the end. You're just feeding her. Yes. You know, it's, that's what it's all about really. Right.
Speaker: It's just like, sometimes you won't know who the queen is. It just feels like you're joining something that is kind of interesting and, and, yeah and you feel good about, and then you don't realize, know, if you're there for a while, um,
Speaker: yeah And also, it is it is important to say that many people will come out of a cult thing and that you know and actually feel like they got some benefit and there were some good things that came out of it and they never experienced all the bad.
Speaker: So, you know, it is it is luck and like an onion with with layers, right? so you can So you can join for a while, get some out of it get up so so get something out of it, get some good out of it, and then go away again.
Speaker: yeah But that's certainly the case with me. Deeper deeper. Yeah. Yeah. That certainly was the case with me, which we'll we'll get into, i suppose. Yeah. um ah I think um now might be a good time to kind of go to kind of address the second half of that, which is why if you are neurodivergent, you might be the first out of a cult. Yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker: Right, because you said Hutton recognition. like that, Martin. I like that little provocation. Well, I didn't expect it either. And was like, ooh, like this. oo That there, is there is, there is hope, you know, and as you said, one of them is like, is like pattern recognition. Like we start to notice red flags early.
Speaker: I think, oh, this, this is, you know, like, why did they just con contradict themselves? I don't understand what is going on. Like, you know, in your, in your ADHD brain just kind of goes, um I have questions.
Speaker: I have questions. Yeah. It's a bit like little the little version of me. When I was six or seven, I went home. was literally six or seven. I said to mom my my mother, I don't believe in God.
Speaker: I just saw hypocrisy. ah You know, it's like my earliest form of pattern recognition. There we go. Like cherry picking, you know, they believed in God when it suited them and when it didn't suit them, it's just like, you know, shot to pieces.
Speaker: Right. There you go. Love it. I think we we also, as you say, we have a low tolerance for hypocrisy. um Yes. you know like So you know once the shine wears off or the inconsistencies appear, we we kind of challenged the you know challenge authority or leave rather than maintain being obedient Yeah. It's just kind of like we just kind of we just see that hip hypocrisy, as as you say, and we just kind of go, I'm just going to go. I'm just going to leave.
Speaker: I think this is weird. Yeah. I'm out. It gets me like the beehive, you know, you so point you think, oh, hang on a minute. Am I just feeding someone's ego? Right.
Speaker: Yeah. Right. And then also, i think well one important thing is that we have difficulty masking long term. So, you know, like there is black and white thinking in cults. They want you to behave in a certain way, right?
Speaker: Like there is a very definite way that you should behave. And and that means that we have to mask our own impulsive and weirdness and our own ADHD and autismness and we have to kind of fit with that and we can only do that for a certain amount of time it's it's not yeah it's it's hard to kind of Spend your life yeah doing that.
Speaker: I've always we've done a podcast on this, but I always craved order. And then at certain point, i I totally, you know, threw order out of the window and and and I needed some disorder.
Speaker: And I've done that. we like a pattern of about four years, i will, I will, you know, self, you know, capitulate um self. What's it called? Sabotage generally a four year cycle, like order, order, order and liking it. And then like, Oh shit, order isn't for me right now. And then there's definitely a cycle.
Speaker: And I think that's not just me. I think that's quite common. Yeah. All right, so um here are some cults or types of cults that specifically prone that could specifically prey on ADHD-like cults, so on ADHD-like traits.
Speaker: So productivity cults, for example, now this is this is where corporate culture very much plays in this area.
Speaker: So corporate cultures can and does use culty tactics. Totally. um To make the workforce more productive.
Speaker: And loyal. And loyal. And i mean, like all those, all those things, those traits that I mentioned at the beginning, about what a cult is and and the tactics they use.
Speaker: Corporations use the same fucking things. I once had a client, I won't name them, but um a a major international brand. Very culty.
Speaker: Very culty. I remember being a meeting with them one time. and I'd been working with them for about 16 years, so a long time. Got to know them very well, including the founder, blah, blah. blah And at some point I suddenly realized what it was that bothered me about them.
Speaker: And it was that this i suddenly thought, oh, they're very culty. Mm-hmm. Yeah. and Yeah. So that's interesting. Yep. Totally get that. So, you know, there's that whole thing about having ah unique language and, you know, this kind of high control. i mean, like, so...
Speaker: you all those big companies, you can... They definitely do culty shit. And even my old ad agency, for exs example, I remember someone...
Speaker: saying about us the ad agency is like they ah they are a cult and we used to laugh like oh my god this person said that we're a cult that's hilarious but as i'm older now and i kind of go back over this like well what is a cult like the ad agency i was in ticked a lot of those boxes um yeah For sure. So there was like charismatic leader. So there's a charismatic, uh, leader.
Speaker: There was definitely a nice versus them mentality. They, they had a lot of control over our behavior and our thoughts and how we worked. There was a, you know, they, we worked long hours.
Speaker: so that and And some of those hours were free. They're not paid. Like, I'd get paid a salary, but I could work, you know, 60 hours a week kind of thing, right? So they got a lot of free labor out of me, kept me isolated. There was a punishment if you wanted to leave.
Speaker: Bloody hell. And they demanded a lot of, you know, total commitment. um Yeah. No, I mean, it was... it was Well, it's it it also the the whole advertising world is a bit culty.
Speaker: As is, um I used to know someone who in television production. That's very culty, TV production in Italy anyway. I'm sure it is. veryulty Very culty, very cliquey.
Speaker: who um So other cults that that that we may fall into are the wellness or healing cults that kind of promise to fix your scattered mind. Yeah.
Speaker: um There is one that comes to mind. ah The name escapes me thank thank thankfully for... so because a well Did you say a wellness company?
Speaker: Wellness or healing cults. Oh, okay. Oh, okay, okay. Fix your scattered mind. Yes. There was... um this ah ah Bikram yoga became a kind of a cult.
Speaker: Right, yes. Even a type of yoga is very culty. Yes, that that is a documented thing. You can go and do your research on that. but also yeah There's a Netflix. There's a great Netflix ah documentary about it, yeah.
Speaker: Yoga is ah does have its cult part, um which kind may also fall into that. Oh, yeah, spiritual groups, obviously, so you know, there's a lot of sort of religious as well groups as well so um yeah those yeah as i said before we don't ever join a cult we kind of join the the friendly front of a cult and then get sucked in Yeah.
Speaker: mean, for some people, there are lighter versions of cults. There are some people that for them, their their preferred choice of genre of music can take on a very culty kind of thing, you know, kind of of look about it from the outside in, you know, there's a belief system, you know, can be very much with certain genres of music.
Speaker: I guess. I guess. um Yeah. but but but but but All right. So I think think the the next thing we can yap on about is how You and I yeah got involved in get involved and we won't say who it is, but but but basically it's an it's an LGAT, which is a large group awareness training.
Speaker: There are a few LGATs under different names um around, and we were definitely involved, some more than others, um in that. Yes.
Speaker: Yeah. So we where should we kind of start the story? Well, we would would we touched on it before. We were both like in a bit of a, you know, going through a difficult time, feeling vulnerable and...
Speaker: Actually, it was the time it time during our, you know, 40 years of friendship. It was that probably the time we we kind of spent the most time with each other. used to come up to me when I was living in London at the time. used to come up and visit ah very often.
Speaker: And, yeah. want to say this is in the 90s, right? Wasn't it? yeah It was, yeah. Or was it or was it in the? I think it was about 98, 1998. Yeah.
Speaker: All right. um Something like that. Let's go back in time. ninety ninety eight 1998. 98, 99. Same year, I think we went to Cuba together. ah Around the same time we went to Cuba.
Speaker: All right. Makes sense. yeah Mm-hmm. And same time, kind same period of my life, actually had a whole load of fun as well.
Speaker: ah slow was a good time. was had. It was like a two or three year patch around that time. It was really looking back, reflective. so a lot of good things happened.
Speaker: Fucking chaos. Chaos monkey. Chaos. yeah All right. so um So ah how did you get involved in this LGAT?
Speaker: this I, yes, because I think I came across them before you because a friend of mine um was invited to go there.
Speaker: and he was already into it for a few months. Then I decided to move up to London. I shared apartment with him in London. um And then I started to go to meetings and I think you started kind of like, you know, um sniff around that as well.
Speaker: I'll come on to the me part in ah in a bit. but The sniffing, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: Right, so you're there. And I i was but i i just got through a separation from my from my wife at that time. um i think this actually is really interesting reflecting on this because this doing this podcast episode, it's actually the first time I think I've ah ever reflected on this moment in my life.
Speaker: It's really interesting because what came to mind was – I thought up until that moment, I could deal with all of my personal, like, like psychological problems.
Speaker: i always I was always convinced I could deal with them by by myself. And there came a point when I couldn't. And it was about this time. but it Basically, that's it.
Speaker: Right. You know it's like, oh, I think I'm going to reach out and get some help from my shit. my I was convinced before that. Before that, I was convinced I could do it by myself.
Speaker: Yeah. Right, right, right. Yeah. And then you you turned up and and then, yeah, so. I was invited because what they do is they, they the people that were already involved in the courses, well, the cool courses, yeah, the cool courses, they would, whoever took part in their courses, they would ask them to invite their friends.
Speaker: Yeah. yeah yeah yeah And so a friend of mine invited me and I went along out of curiosity, kind of liked it actually. Yeah. Found it interesting.
Speaker: Yeah. You were definitely hy hyped up for it. Was I? God. You remember that? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. You're like, Oh this is great. Oh, this is, this is so good. And you know, guess I'm kind of it and you're like this, that and the other. And yeah, and that's, you know, and,
Speaker: And then so you wanted me to be part of that. ah Yes. It was, it was, uh, um, and myself, I was like, I think I'd, I'd gone through a real bad patch.
Speaker: So ah don't think I've ever talked about this with you. I don't remember, but anyway, so around that time i was like, I was, I was having,
Speaker: ah relationship issues i was out of one and into another and it was all very messy um and i was uh i was i was at the point where i would there was a graveyard and i would walk to the graveyard at night right and i would just walk around it and just i just ah just sit there and i just talk to various gravestones all right just like I'd just tell them what the fuck was going on.
Speaker: Right, okay. Right, and then I was like trying to sort of like... They're always such a willing audience as well. Well, they're not going anywhere. Right, they're not a difficult audience.
Speaker: You know, they're like engaged. I would say that the atmosphere is a little bit dead, but apart from that... all um Yeah, yeah, I killed.
Speaker: i killed. ah But but but yeah, so I would like... ah would I remember something like that. Yeah.
Speaker: um You did share a couple of things with me around that time. You're always generally very, I would say, ah very um private about your stuff.
Speaker: Very private. Yeah. Yeah. I'm being less so these these days. um Yeah. And I would go there in my in my Glastonbury Festival hat, which was,
Speaker: it was like It was like this red hat. It had these kind of yellow spiky horns, almost like a sort of – it was this fucking crazy festival thing. I'd just wander around there. and and and and the And the cops would come and come and stop me and ask, what the hell are doing?
Speaker: Yeah. Wow. um It was also the kind of time when – um I know whether so any listeners will have kind of got to this place, but it's like where I literally had broken myself down to the point where I'd thrown everything out and all there was was just darkness and nothing.
Speaker: Yes. I remember you telling me something. It stayed with me. You told me something around this time. You said, Paul, I have stood on on the precipice, on the edge right of the deep, dark, infinite, dark hole and looked in and gazed for a while.
Speaker: ah know. And you do. And this is nothingness. And from there, from this nothingness, I decided, okay, i've got I'm going to not just drop down into it.
Speaker: I'm going to build something else. And in order to do that, I had to kind of ask all the really fundamental questions like, okay, um is it right to kill people?
Speaker: I went, right and no, it's wrong to kill people. Okay, all right, got that. All right, well, next thing, is it right to do this or that or this or that? So just went through this whole process of like asking all the questions right from the very base of being a human being and just reassembling the things I thought made more sense. Yeah.
Speaker: I've been in that place as well a bit, a few years later, because I had like a mini breakdown around that time. And I had a ah bigger breakdown off ah some years afterwards. But yeah, pretty much the same thing.
Speaker: But what you're talking about is like belief systems. It's like, oh, what the fuck do I believe in? Yes. And getting maybe some, you know, some thoughts like, oh, do I believe that?
Speaker: I always used to believe in that thing. And now I'm not sure if that's right anymore. And that's quite scary. Right? Right. It's like, what the fuck do I believe in? Mm-hmm.
Speaker: So I was in the middle of that whole thing. Yeah. When you come along and go, oh there's this large group awareness thing, LGAT.
Speaker: we'll call it, um, uh, going on. And, uh, I, I, and it's been amazing. I love it. And I'm like, okay. ah Right. I am like in that place where, and it was free.
Speaker: And it's free. Right. Just, you just rock up. Right. Yeah. You just have to sign up. no So I think it was like, I think it was like an online thing even then. So it was like, I went online, I think, um,
Speaker: And you sign up and you, I may have paid money. It was online. It was online. I paid money. Cause I paid money. ah Yeah. well It's only the first, I think it's the only, cause I, I don't know when you came into it because I, I invited probably you and a couple of other friends to come along at that point. It's free.
Speaker: And then, but actually when you go into the courses, it's you pay money differently. Right. So I signed up for a course, um And,
Speaker: yeah, I paid money, went up, signed up. And then we were – so the first day of of these LLGATs is – is is usually just kind of like you just get get introduced to like the whole thing, right? It's just like a, that's sort of like a thing. Well, to give a ah bit of an idea to um ah for to our listeners is there were basically groups of, ah a think, around 100, between 100 and 150 people um and there would be a person at the front, you know, guiding people through what they were trying to to help people with.
Speaker: Right. There was a very, I felt like when you go into this, it's is it's like a very bland conference room, basically. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And they make it as bland as possible.
Speaker: So all the, you can't see out, there all the windows shut and everything is, and you notice how everything is exactly symmetrical. Oh yeah, they were very particular about details. Yeah.
Speaker: Yes. Like they had a whiteboard, but then the marker for the whiteboard was in a very certain position and it was, all it was very uniform. Yeah. In that way.
Speaker: Yeah. And there's a load and they start asking questions and people stand up and go, what, why are you here? oh I'm here because yeah blah, blah, blah. Um, and, uh, during that whole, that morning,
Speaker: um I can't remember even what the question was, but ah I stood up and I went, hi, I'm Night I'm here because Paul sent me, or whatever friend sent me.
Speaker: you weren't You weren't there. um and and the and And i i I said, right, well, and then I went into that story of,
Speaker: Right. Well, I was broken down to a point where I so i was, cool where I questioned whether I should kill people or not. And then I, you know, I answered that question and I moved on. so i So I said the same thing that I said to you, right?
Speaker: Right. Um, and then as we were going through the morning, someone from the group pulled me out and I went into a back office.
Speaker: yeah And they went, yeah yeah, we think that you're not right for this. We we are concerned about your mental state.
Speaker: um So we'll refund the money and and off your trot. so All right. All right. So i've got cake ah I got kicked out of the cult.
Speaker: I didn't know that. I remember you getting, you kicked out, but you you kept that ah as you, as you have a ah want to do, you kept it private about what actually the detail. and i might might but i' So what happened was I went, I then went back to your place, whether it was the same day or. Okay. ah I think it was the same day.
Speaker: I think I went back to yours. Probably. um Yeah, probably. Because I was up there any anyway. So it was me and my girlfriend at the time. um And ah we ah you asked me, so so what happened? And I said, oh, you know, I got kicked out because I said i said this.
Speaker: and you were like, oh. okay Oh, you did tell me. Yeah, yeah. No, you were like, oh, no, it's a shame you didn't have – the person that trained you because you felt like that person could have handled that a lot better rather than the person that I had.
Speaker: Yeah. I mean, clearly they handled it really badly. i mean, that's ridiculous. Right. But I know it was honestly, I think it was the best thing I could have said. And I got thrown out the cult before I even got in hardly. So, ah okay.
Speaker: I was fine. Yeah. I was fine. So then there's fine. Well, I, I did get through the course and then what was really comfortable about them when they would anyone who had had done the course,
Speaker: Oh, no, wait. Because there were different levels of different courses. those there There was a basic course and then there was an advanced course and there's some courses that go beyond that. And at some point, they employee they take an employee, you didn't get paid, they would get you to call people up like you right um or people that had only done the first course and hadn't carried on.
Speaker: And they they could literally, they would call you at 3 o'clock in the morning. and try and encourage you to do another course. And it just got it was just ridiculous. I got out of it. i employed a rather ingenious tactic by saying, ah there's no point in you calling me because I've already decided I'm signing up. I'm going to do the advanced course in New York.
Speaker: And they said, Oh, oh, okay. So they stopped harassing me. Wow. um Because they couldn't follow it up because it was in terms of administration. They couldn't see if I had or hadn't signed up. But actually I had.
Speaker: And I went to New York did the advanced course, which was phenomenal. It was great, actually. i was there I was in New York at the time. you came with No, you came with me. You flew out to New York with me.
Speaker: Oh, I did. That's right. I flew out to New York with you so I could yes his meet my girlfriend. And yes we all stayed in family.
Speaker: Freaking cheap hotel in, and I think it was in New Jersey, actually. I think it was. Yes. I'll tell you exactly where it was because every time, this would make I'm not sure if I've ever told you this, but every time I watch The Sopranos, there's a bit in the um introduction of The Sopranos where they go under a sign saying, exit for um a part of New Jersey called Elizabeth.
Speaker: Yes, it is. Which is where our motel was. Oh, wow. It's also where Ikea is as well. Oh, okay. But, yeah, this this this hotel right was super cheap, right?
Speaker: And the thing that I remember about it was we we rock up, right, we and we're in the hotel room foyer with the reception desk, right? and And there are two people, there are two guys behind the desk, right?
Speaker: And um one guy has one arm and the other guy has no arms. Right.
Speaker: so between the pair of them they just had one arm between them both one functioning arm and and uh i remember i i i remember i think it was you or me asked for a pen so we sign and they and the one with no arms just kind of managed to like That detail, I don't remember. hen He knocked a pen across the the um the the desk.
Speaker: Wow. ah Towards that, I don't remember. So we could sign something. I remember the hotel was very, very basic, but it kind of had its own charm, think, in its basicness.
Speaker: Oh, God, it was it was like the cheapest hotel we could find. Yeah. it was like so Because money was tight. It was tight. it meant The problem was that it meant getting um um every night. it was Because the course would start at 8 o'clock in the morning.
Speaker: It was in Fifth Avenue, right? Right. This course. Mm-hmm. And it would go on until um just before midnight. The problem was that last um the last metro back to the motel from Madison Square Gardens was at midnight.
Speaker: So I had to like, you know, ah couldn't hang around. i had to go down there. And actually got stopped at gunpoint by guy wanted money off me.
Speaker: I was walking along towards Madison Square Gardens looking up, as tourists do and this guy, I could see this guy in front of me would like like doing something strange with his it was like under his coat, and I suddenly got pushed aside by someone behind me, and he ah went up to this guy and pretended he had a gun in his jacket pocket and and basically scared him off.
Speaker: And was like, what the hell happened there? then Then at that point realized that the guy that had done this for me very kindly was actually on my course. Right.
Speaker: And he was from Chicago. He was the ex-producer of P Diddy. god he Jesus, there's like, honestly, if there's anyone to be standing there to be your guardian angel, it's someone um off from Chicago.
Speaker: Right. Right. who A little bit streetwise. Who was involved with P. Diddy. Yeah. And I didn't realize, I didn't really appreciate what he'd done for me until the day after. we were back on the course the day after in the morning. I went up to and actually thanked him. I said, sorry, you know, I didn't really realize last night what you did for me. I just wanted to say thank you. and yeah Wow, yeah, just, you know, I know what you mean, like just a...
Speaker: Just us being a tourist, just blithely walking around like an idiot. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Where's this guy? This guy. Oh, look, there's my dog. Eddie.
Speaker: He's in the background. If you can see him. Bless him. I know. so he So, yeah, he's always here. Just don't don't normally me see him. Right. So anyway, yeah. So this, but this course in New York, it was amazing.
Speaker: It was really good. And, and it was really, really helpful. um All right. um They did some certain exercises, you know, that made me, the one in particular made me, you know, think I started to, I started thinking, I stopped overthinking.
Speaker: What did stop? I was overthinking less to put it right right. That's the right way put And it helped me do that because they, they did this, I'll explain, describe it very quickly. They would pair people up and they would say, okay, i want you to, um, tell the story that is most, one of the stories that was most difficult for you in your life.
Speaker: Okay. And you would tell the story to each other. So I would tell my story to this person who sat directly in front of me and they would, and then you would repeat the story. Yeah.
Speaker: Until you started and they said, well, when do you stop repeating the story? and said, you will know when it's time to stop repeating the story. And basically it got to point where this my story is. They literally call it your story.
Speaker: It's just sounded more and more ridiculous that you would get hung up on that for all of this time. And it actually really, really worked. And then the other person would tell their story, their thing that like, but got wound them up all these years. No, it, you know, cause them problems.
Speaker: It's actually quite an interesting exercise. All right. And other things that, that pri was cool. It was pretty cool. Cults. Yeah. the The front end of cults, you, you can walk away with them.
Speaker: beneficial things. Yeah. Because with one particular particular thing about this cult is that it's based on courses, um you know, to kind of improve your mental health, if it's, you know, top kind of umbrella way of looking at it. It's this course-led thing on the pretense that, you know, there wasn't some kind of, you know, end game. But in the end, there was an end game and you slowly but surely you kind of like, this doesn't feel right.
Speaker: You know, money, money, money, buy more courses, buy more courses, money, money, money. Exactly. um But then how did you get out? Because you were telling me this last week about that, that point where you thought, hang on a second.
Speaker: Well, yes, yes. They were testing your weather, how obedient you were. Yes. I came back from New York and they said, oh, um can you do you think you could help us, um you know, assisting a course?
Speaker: So she said, yeah, and I rocked up and helped out. And at some point the course leader said, um no, it wasn't even the course leader. It was an assistant to the course leader. So it was very structured.
Speaker: There was like some people that were allowed to talk to the ki course leader. It was pretty pathetic. That's when it started to sting, you know. Anyway, I was asked to do this thing for the course leader to go and get him a glass of water. Right.
Speaker: And I didn't even know where the kitchens were. You know, I didn't know anything. It's like, okay, I'll figure it out. Okay. right. Leave it to me. I went, came back because I couldn't find an actual glass glass.
Speaker: So I came back with a with a plastic glass of water. And they said, no, no, no, no. no no That's, it can't be plastic.
Speaker: I said, pardon me? No, I said, it has to be glass. That's when, I mean, already getting doubts at that point. Like, oh, this is, this is shit.
Speaker: Come on. Right. You know, that's when it, I didn't like that at all. Right. You know, it started to feel very uncomfortable when it got to that point.
Speaker: very minor thing, but for me, it was, I was uncomfortable with it. right i think i ignored them i just didn't i said look um i didn't go looking for a glass i said no no come on right yeah holy moly so yeah it was that point where they were just test as i said testing your whether you, how obedient you're going to be.
Speaker: Yeah. The next thing after doing the advanced course, they get you to do the, can't remember what the courses were, but you would become officially trained assistants in the courses.
Speaker: who Yeah. And then they would build up until you actually became a leader after 70 years, you'd become a leader.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. And you'd spent so much money and you'd literally just, all you were doing was literally, you were yeah paying for courses and what it it would have been is you trying to recruit and get as many people in as you could through your, as yes through the, your team around you trying to suck in as many people as you can that they could pay money so that you like that. Yeah.
Speaker: You just make money for the people upstairs. That's like almost like free labor. Yeah. And I knew people that were got more into it, got deeper into it into it than me. She's still a friend, actually, in London.
Speaker: And she started to feel uncomfortable with it as well, a long you know, ah bit longer down the line. Yeah, yeah. All right. Okay.
Speaker: Are we at a point where we think we can rate cults? I think I'm to read Colts, mate. All right. Let's let's let's hit the jingly jingle.
Speaker: I'll just what wait wait for Paul because he's checking his notes. I can see. No, I'm going to the ratings things. Okay. Okay. I'm there. I'm there. All right.
Speaker: Here we go.
Speaker: Is it a dopamine hit or is it a burnout thing? Is it? Well, as ever, the banjo is definitely a dopamine hit. Massive, like 10 out of 10.
Speaker: But cults, cults, dopamine hit. It was quite a high. It was high, actually. I have to be honest. I think it's an eight. It was an eight. At that time of my life, it was an eight.
Speaker: Well, here we go. All right. I mean, my experience was different. My mileage did vary, but I will say that I can definitely see at the beginning of stages that the dopamine hit is quite high.
Speaker: So I will also, I mean, i I will give it a six as well. like Okay. fair Fair on, yeah. Like I can see like,
Speaker: There is definitely an attraction, which is why people get sucked, sucked, sucked in. is dumb Yeah. You can't deny that. Yeah. All right. Burnout. Burnout. when you You go first. You go first on the burnout.
Speaker: i'm I'm going full, full, full 10. Like, like this. Like, cults will literally just, just, yeah they will start out like,
Speaker: They will start out good and then they will just rob you of everything. Like that, phoning you up at 3 a.m., you know, like the the the mental torture the and the... Yeah.
Speaker: Everything. Stupid details. Yeah. And the amount of ah of conforming you have to do and yeah it's just... It it will...
Speaker: it will bleed you dry mentally and physically and financially. Yeah. No, me too. I'm like nine or 10 definitely because it, it, that stuff is, is, it's highly, highly manipulative. Yeah.
Speaker: you know we i think i think we we are the top at the beginning of the episode, we're talking about you know these narcissistic things. you know It can start to reek, smell, stink of narcissism in the end because you're basically feeding an ego somewhere you know that's hiding in the middle there somewhere, like a queen bee.
Speaker: Right. Okay. There we go. All right. Yeah. Yeah. Let's jump ah back in the elevator because we're going to go make our way over to Alexandra's
Speaker: inn. Yes, Postmaster General. Yes, yes, yes. So... Right, so i I did chat to her in in the week and and her hello ah haunted inn doesn't have a name yet, but it's still being workshopped.
Speaker: Oh, okay. It's being workshopped. It's being workshopped. Oh, hate workshops. I hate workshops. God, ti this placement is so far down.
Speaker: Oh, there we go. We're up. Yeah. Oh, there we go. week You know, there's ah love the squeaks. i know. Right. Out the pub. Out the pub. Out the back door. Into the tractor. We're off.
Speaker: Nice.
Speaker: Oh. Lovely. Lovely. Lovely. Strangely, I've just realised I'm more inclined to whistle in the in an elevator when I'm going down.
Speaker: All right, but not up. Not up. Interesting. Okay. and all right so we're ah All right, so we're in Alexandra's pub. It's still being built. It's not a pub, it's an inn.
Speaker: Get that straight, West. Okay. um um right she's ah And she's left left left a note, I see, about ah hospitals, which was what we talked about last week.
Speaker: is yes Do you want to kind of read read it? read it but um Okay, yeah. She says, Alexandra, she says, I've been hospital a lot as a patient, a visitor, and as a caregiver, and she doesn't like them in general.
Speaker: Even though, she said, her mum used to try push it towards becoming a doctor. But she says well because she's quite calm and not disgusted by open wounds and blood.
Speaker: Wow. Yeah. I tell you, is that the prerequisite requirement for being a doctor? It's like not yeah being okay with wounds and blood. Yes.
Speaker: I'm very specific on that. I'm totally okay with gaping wounds. I can't stand watching um someone, a surgeon making an incision.
Speaker: Oh, okay. With a scalpel. Everything else I'm fine with. All right. Yep. Yep. Everything else. Is that incisions? Like, oh, can't watch it. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Mm-hmm. And then she goes on to say... She's saying how different things are in Greece.
Speaker: You know, that in hospitals, you get between two and six people in a room, which is actually similar to Italy, actually. But... um but but but but fire most masking level 5000. So a lot of masking. That's a lot.
Speaker: That's a lot, I suppose. ah To be right. Yeah. Now, yeah, yeah. You have to kind of mask a lot in in hospitals and unless you're... That's true, actually. yeah hey There's a lot of behaving going on, isn't there, in hospitals? Yeah.
Speaker: You feel like you you don't want to give doctors or nurses any more problems than they've already got. So, yeah, behaving and masking is is happening. Yeah, well, thanks, Alexandra, our ADHD postmaster general.
Speaker: I will say that ah that if you haven't hit the subscribe button, do hit this and and go into the comments because, you know, there are plenty of jobs and roles in ADHDville. So if you if you get involved in your comment and and you may like...
Speaker: yeah You too can have a job in ADH Dead Evil. Or just a role, ah function. Yeah, a this was a job title.
Speaker: This is a good point to tell you, to get you already excited about the next episode, which, all right because Martin doesn't know this yet, because we choose, we choose, we choose, alternately choose which, what we're going to do.
Speaker: So next week is about form, ADHD and form filling. Oh, form-filling. Okay. Form-filling. This was actually on Martin's list. We've got two different lists. This is on Martin's list of suggestions.
Speaker: I love this idea because I get massively triggered by form-filling. So we'll get into that next week. Wow. All right. a love I hate a form.
Speaker: I hate a form. So so what so we could we can bitch for half an hour, hopefully, on fucking forms. Excellent. Well-chosen word, Martin. Bitch. All right.
Speaker: We're going to bitch about form fillings. just leaves me to say that ADHDville is delivered fresh every Tuesday to all providers of fine podcasts. Please subscribe to the pod and rate us most amazing and feel free to correspond at will in the comments. But wait, there's more. If you wish to see our beautiful, beautiful faces, then Sally forth to the YouTubes and the TikToks. And you can also pick up a quill and email us at ADHDville at gmail.com. But in the meantime, be fucking kind to yourself.
Speaker: Come And I beseech you, fellow ADHDers, fare thee well with gladness of heart. black gla Gladness of heart. Yeah.
Speaker: Gladness of heart. Glad. There, says the mayor. That's that.
