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17. Hvorfor trenger vi å snakke om døden?
67 Plays11 days ago
I denne episoden samtaler Jannicke Wiel med psykosynteseterapeut Elsbeth Monsen om hvorfor mennesker har behov for å snakke om sorg og om døden.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:00:13
Speaker
Welcome to a new episode of Holism-pod. I'm Janneke Wiel and I'm glad to have Elspeth Monsen. We lead a seminar together in høst with Memento Mori, which is a seminar about life death in the Regi of Holistic Forbund. I'm glad to have you here today, Elspeth. Welcome.
00:00:33
Speaker
Thank you. I want to tell you a little bit about your background Not just why you and the I and
00:01:00
Speaker
forboran of rti i e two too certainton b thepo answerer in psycho inesta therapy When I was finished with the thought...
Elspeth's Background and Passion for Psychotherapy
00:01:14
Speaker
yeah thats tervilao havebirudasta ova I it I in my life that I can use? And then it became a sorg-group leader.
00:01:25
Speaker
Because it takes time to build a client-masse. But sorg, I had to experience. or da bla orrepala there or then na vaioas about realtime vianman dufe solo And and We have missed families who have decided to leave the jordflod. And so it has become something am genuinely excited about. Because either in the or in the event the sorg, there is much ensomness, feel like.
00:02:04
Speaker
people think it can be difficult talk about, difficult to about. we the And So if I can be
00:02:43
Speaker
de grippena i ho The
00:02:50
Speaker
But in the organization I'm in, there are also their own groups for...
00:02:58
Speaker
Unge who have missed partner, are for the parents, syskene and other people who have experienced self-mord.
The Challenges of Expressing Sorrow
00:03:07
Speaker
It's elder partner who have missed their partner, also their parents, their family, their friends, their friends.
00:03:17
Speaker
so mom miss that missed people in that
00:03:35
Speaker
Many have also said little frit furro belllo de venro for me le me seen that onferler daism at among a fertil ti ula start too for willing into some and And we who have experienced deep sorrow, we know that you the
00:04:15
Speaker
on different ways and the the same situation or their own experience. And it can be very good to meet someone who has experienced something that. are there and are there are listening to each other. It is what we need do to validated our feelings.
00:04:54
Speaker
For people can also come because they feel they working for little. I don't know how to get out of way I'm going to get out of the way I'm going to get out of the way. Some can experience the same. How can I get out of the way can good things while I'm actually in the way.
00:05:09
Speaker
ah unknown come for lot hell for me iladenomician and that her mother for the for different. They feel that they have role in their family.
00:05:32
Speaker
A son where his father has gone away can experience that I very young age, I think I'm very young age, they are not in the beginning of a growing life. And then you can hear how others feel like this. What are we together?
00:05:48
Speaker
How are we together? How are we together? Because when you sit as young have missed someone, and talk to friends about your friends, we on la if for die for day ah do you see teum o mohammi staan or sak be ven drum there's some not gonna sh so you cannna see in there so bleer a a ro or let the trimit bamota forra deque de ah that is nonular level say in there and suddenly
00:06:19
Speaker
leviman deep soov it st topped so kind of blu about it's when allison oppitoella inna so thank you out as because in modern schedule i like canva hope it over if I think it can be they go And
00:07:15
Speaker
so get app but not take is or let ah that's rule the convamon is something it thatnalus viing it put onka for palotilo sarigeerriia and eponaloy takekison yeah absolute although extra stares said the not comment and no and fra an an toran na a shaatel would are held onrimon's tri foralelur soriskapo moel is u this was a really bit at some con also sovarata how ro ten trail dog but so let's go to go with ri centers it's on a okay
00:07:51
Speaker
probably bad and na paul beli me in know or on for the log le yeah vila I think that with other people's desire go around and sørge, it can be a big task to live with.
The Taboo of Discussing Death in Families
00:08:10
Speaker
We've met people who maybe sørge or reflect over their own death, while family members or friends around them say, You will not die, you will be free from the And
00:08:39
Speaker
And so it's very difficult to talk about death. on duden
00:08:48
Speaker
So it's also some groups to be with, others who are in the same as you. But I think very much about... Just as we've got a little bit of our feelings on our own fields, for in a way we are open to the society and can talk about it most.
00:09:11
Speaker
cook in thenucom master and In reality, when it's for a bit, I feel like we're not quite good at it. I feel like the younger generation is better than the younger generation. It's a bit difficult for us to know where
00:09:34
Speaker
How much should I my feelings? What great? What is not? And so it's also that we don't always have to take away from other people's feelings.
00:09:46
Speaker
It's skummelt. We don't know how we should meet it. It's a little bit of a farvane to navigate for many, I think. Have you the ventesorg.
00:10:10
Speaker
If you would this person in the sorg. What would you like to do?
00:10:25
Speaker
i take get at the mr fur i its about a c there see the I think it. get a Pass it me or have you wanted to go a tour? It's a very open message.
00:10:41
Speaker
past pastoral thein no my lord how do we still go and che it he aren't that made song or but The point is to try to get a physical event where you don't need talk all go on a tour, can go on a tour.
00:10:58
Speaker
You can still the ah du ta ero provolia the threeclockur for the yeah i think get a tackle does it one me look to see or then somari sortge asha melicx say i morein interesterte road or weli me some foot should come footcom fell at
00:11:32
Speaker
then some extra stuff that i will prove for i frame of it for the they areing it at or for an acceptable mono our alarmonai the day and the time.
Comfort through Physical Touch
00:11:46
Speaker
For this can be so very quickly, almost from a new tim minute or team at the team or the i don't know what shout out and to
00:11:59
Speaker
When I to talk about.
00:12:12
Speaker
mean when there are twelve over were heard um all try other pos so com mr i of the limiters with i tricked the of ourman But I not
00:12:38
Speaker
oh the i heard of larry ano this was social dialogue out of datailli through the hadma oh they have isnaki or blaard grip pal And that it No one will claim and need a but the others don't want to claim. Not just now.
00:13:10
Speaker
So it's a way to try to figure out you want to claim claim. And what I'm doing is just to clap the people on the back or on the arm, which makes the person not to meet me.
00:13:22
Speaker
They just mottar little bit of a way. I'm here, I'm seeing you. For we mennesker, we all need a form for physical contact, but without being very comfortable. It can be a little bit for me for no one. So it's a little bit of a way to try.
00:13:40
Speaker
Right or it's not something you can say in fail to not sure you say in a fail. If you say for a lot of times that you understand exactly how you have it. you do not know as a rule. know exactly how the other has it.
00:14:00
Speaker
But you can say that I feel with you. For that can you absolutely say. Because you do it. e for lumilla that I you. I think it's a expression that shows my love and love. And you also say that I'm here with you.
00:14:19
Speaker
Maybe you can say, I would like to understand how you have it. You can choose what you want to talk about today. At you open up and maybe someone in sorg has a need to talk about anything else. You are with them in it. And if they want to talk about the situation, you are with them in it.
00:14:35
Speaker
o theictic styleti forlo theeta gana nodur opera almost am i she laughed now often in the care it's not to be port thing And bla and clear thank you that yeah that's seller the the for the fact that I state as special mobile filele textbook so i come out from square i i'm glad to do seek here some some then oak tion mandea still let pashmala elderly stars have gone who do added a it
00:15:18
Speaker
the reis they were on, and you are with them without pushing them to talk about the elements that are the most important theme of the theme. But it's not where they are today. No, it's a good point. There's also a we can say through our eyes.
00:15:36
Speaker
when We say things about how it is with you today, and so it's a lot you can show to send this with following. They can take in the invitation, or they can let it be.
00:15:49
Speaker
You are very excited about ventesorg. Would you say something about what ventesorg is? I'm not sure that everyone very familiar with
Understanding 'Ventesorg' and Anticipation of Loss
00:15:58
Speaker
it. think it's good word. It's when you wait for someone to die.
00:16:04
Speaker
kindda
00:16:06
Speaker
And it's a time you know that diagnosis has come, or you see how the way it goes, and you know that the day is suddenly much more than you thought for maybe some days ago.
00:16:20
Speaker
And so you start to prepare yourself at here the person you to miss.
00:16:26
Speaker
Of course, you can also I can I was when my father got the strength.
00:16:42
Speaker
um We were very close each other, death. or For me, the phase was very much worse than after death.
00:16:57
Speaker
We often say that death came as a risk. It can be in many cases. The time before death in the end can be considered as a vent. there are we very different in how we use the time. For some are it a bit like a skip it off. They don't want to get into it, but the other of us don't want to skip it off. They live in it with hair, hair, and everything. And I think it was a terrible time. It was really a berg-and-dall-bana.
00:17:39
Speaker
oh I remember said to some that feel that being a diagnosis of I my
00:18:04
Speaker
delo pet soba mayor biferrela where he is driving in 140 kilometers per hour and I just sit on it without seeing where the next swing try to hold me fast.
00:18:19
Speaker
I felt like I had no control. ms farham sat and then then see good o cunition napochro be noard so she My the had control.
00:18:31
Speaker
And it's an impression that I'm very excited to be
00:18:44
Speaker
And I had really needed a group in the phase. And in some periods when it was so ill, I tried to find a group. And I had no strength to really go into it.
00:18:56
Speaker
And the periods where the body just went off for a load. and then I felt like I actually had this pretty well so I didn't want to go to a group or a group or a group or a group so it was a lot
00:19:15
Speaker
You find a hospital in Oslo where you can find help if you are on a hospital for someone who is sick or has a lot of pain. It's very important, for I think youre um at that moment this the two
00:19:38
Speaker
I can think that when are in the on what comes from every moment. And this moment, the culture that has been positive for you with being here and now, can almost be a able to do before it has happened.
00:20:06
Speaker
Have you experienced anything about it? Yes. It's positive invalidation, it can feel so obvious.
00:20:20
Speaker
For it's not your feelings, and it's said best opinion. And it's what I think is so and so can like that.
00:20:35
Speaker
and say things some kind blios ah tef of wonto her for that got milk man can so to to under that what It's like a little slag in be to the is my own self-worth.
00:21:16
Speaker
di good on here and sopathticon
00:21:21
Speaker
Virkelig. I think it's a good word to say positive invalidation. The positive is intention or
00:21:42
Speaker
yeah said I see you, I see where you are, I understand where you are, that's what need most. Not that to And of that is a in my mom ah but tryavi the in so
00:22:34
Speaker
I feel like the times I drive with it, it's when I'm in a situation where have a little bit of time. thirty My head on the way to doing something else. And so I can say these things... I don't talk about mennesker's sorg, I don't talk about the more about the small things, but that can be important in my my own children. But I come the... so do the ivi the mimiics and little duts's sheep thing ira
00:23:08
Speaker
But okay, we are just mennesker, but it's why I think it's great to talk about this, to create a little of a nervous system. At, ah, it what drive with? Yes, of course I drive with it.
00:23:35
Speaker
not... It's not... It's not... It's not... We have good time to the What happens with the blip? What happens with the body? What happens with the body? it's what I'm so extremely thankful for when sit with a group or a client. or with groups like we did with you with Mentor More. We the
00:24:29
Speaker
orard some eculusaktvaligibm melong ownera or de may no vi liba sea footman first non m the third the li neva for the that i handle vy me um theva they li on verpo but v among others i value the list more a there are no known not gives to sit in cleesta for a brother while we sell holy si nonandra retir and paa the'll whip on my head it in or If we are a little out of the way and this is that actually is said here.
00:25:23
Speaker
What is the person If you try to try to try, also with help of and more than words that come out. It's the hardest level to be on, but important.
00:25:43
Speaker
I think this a to a place, you don't have time to go in north east for dan mountain and to But
00:26:10
Speaker
So it also matters about what others say and And wood mads skin on killing them I the are because they don't can feel about themselves.
00:26:26
Speaker
sir deosculevare me ferna ma on menska ios mar at k cleavna like on the vi inkler ya namemen the tali innob i or duardio sobra harras monandusivity of fuisherpa also taman of maximmi and he help puttra desman in the league in the ferson or alreadytin knows mair orraist for electo hoterra So and I don't want to stay there and be there and take away the other.
Fears of Losing Control in Life and Death
00:27:01
Speaker
And to see on what's going on that makes it difficult for me. And to look to someone who is in a way or goes through great feelings. It's not that we think difficult to feel it, that we don't want to feel it. we don't know what we should say.
00:27:17
Speaker
It's absolutely true. I about the the death? pets a patriotta consca mon obreia vdemer or suor durden or yeah javi set for momentum or effort on the komen but a link did that in the stock get ye um duin and I after death.
00:27:49
Speaker
or they will prepare their own groundwork talk about how it can be best possible. Can you about and who are looking for this forum we create Holistic Forbund for to talk about death. And it may be because there are so many arena where death is not welcome. It's like a theme. It's too hard, it's too hard, it's too hard, it's too hard, it's too hard, it's too much of a lot involved in it.
00:28:31
Speaker
And it's for big questions about the okian. anddarefore therefore two permo killing there We don't know what the death is, we don't know what the death is on the other side, we don't know what the death is happening in the death or after the death.
00:28:50
Speaker
So it's also,
00:29:00
Speaker
ah mom vit the va mom viricli it momma vita but i'm think forget it ma vitta bo mava o madamurton the eye of the st You
00:29:13
Speaker
or some the forester was conscious heed And the on
00:29:25
Speaker
This is going to go along the way, it's about to prepare yourself for not to have control. For I think it therevan ni gong e emonga but as im told that a control, not to have control.
00:29:45
Speaker
And it's the same as lot of people. ah I'm glad for that I've begun to be a bit more than what happens if you don't have control.
00:30:06
Speaker
me. I feel like it's a lot there. We get a little panic over what we say is that we don't have control over. thely hard control but cell How can we try to do it?
00:30:21
Speaker
ah For my part, I feel like I'm trying to tell home a and have the order. It makes me try.
00:30:37
Speaker
a hol that i refer me le or writtena they are my trig And home home, there was always been talking about death. It's not um i and head some the thereva so
00:30:58
Speaker
nofret ferru de wi ah a glim and dominfi and diamondmet sa fortecu cuha toughy onutha auntt fur all phil sano duon da dawa kidno so let lenger. They could be able do in the middle, but the tone got a different sound, that's not so weird in the whole.
00:31:21
Speaker
well i think you' would also say lot i broke that that livess through my it hits through me i didn't know where it started for take nomava bruque the for i artov i can't be latin waharis on phenopa then sit to calno androas a brought tenton about thes cu on um i le on the ilo example i going go to i and will be to frozen from the don thank you tamon dano male bruka there' are some where e die e leave fourteen rika andrea when bru the smarty stay there noah than the ponno lir thank the elmanalcapb kill for other as of for but it for
00:31:59
Speaker
So we just need it so long we can. now It's good to
00:32:15
Speaker
men the i hear to move le or bringa lepobo hung man theor gra id the special smile actually thank you one got scare not too lostyam or the wa laid out for han hard yo butumba the dear cool of press or yo But and in not a problem.
00:32:44
Speaker
ah the barnics ming And most clerk to bring you the pa bomb there the
00:33:01
Speaker
I think that he was a little bit sick when he could talk to someone else. And the actually a little bit of a witness to it. For us when we have momentum, the reason why it's so that talk about it, and who don't have the arena to talk about it.
Creating Safe Spaces for Discussing Death
00:33:24
Speaker
the a on that tilllo socom To die, it's in relation to self-send or snack other on so be it has sco this ah a on for the the I think that the beho there.
00:33:50
Speaker
so i answered a ruffle by Yes, of course. And I
00:34:05
Speaker
And we are there, and we are together in six or sit and think and think very well. And nothing is wrong to say. It's a big deal of the idea that here is it's a law to come with what you're hoping to bear on.
00:34:25
Speaker
And the the, it,
00:34:44
Speaker
veryna for allti ah ah down on the thinness that absolutely i'vet never did for that or and think to me i it's spend another but and gu therapy start at me anomori a release poet benciman said in as iar but up they are there to for it all be the koche if you would but not gra files lay it So for about it, in
00:35:24
Speaker
also a fun to die attic cantag or thatic cu sharp no go be har feelingings cush um on the urban na there other special uncle cleaning du When I arranged this, there were people around me who said, to an end. Yes, but it was very amazing. was just the gled that was room. How to talk about death, even if it can really be able to do it,
00:35:56
Speaker
selon the com vilibieros oa ah uless sorryog a sch ne so a and in the room. It was like to let death to be able to talk to death talk to death that the death.
00:36:40
Speaker
think it's very, very nice to say it, it's question I hear that I hold these sorgrupper. How does it work? Do you sit there and grieve together?
00:36:52
Speaker
Yes, it it's not just that. It's very much more. It's also much more. there are also mere loter or I've been in groups where the same set been so that it's been a lot of galgen humor. It's like an egen tone that makes it a special favor for humor, but that's not to be in a different group. There are the stedings in different ways. And this is what's so exciting about when we work with menneskegrupper. It's how different they are with small changes. I think that you say about the freedom It's important to also to get into this, which I like to call it, as a inclusion.
00:37:41
Speaker
We talk about the work because it's a job to do. Yes, but I also have a sense for the inclusion because think that We live better with the sorrows if we can include them in life and give them their natural place.
00:38:01
Speaker
For it doesn't matter not to take over, but to include them as a part of a more complex thing. That you become more healthy as a person if you carry them with you on natural way, then.
00:38:16
Speaker
I heard you about a group of women who meet and go on tour on the beach. I got the impression that it was a time every week where they met. And then I asked her question to her who led the group. What are you doing today?
00:38:33
Speaker
She said that she could have been a
00:38:47
Speaker
And menstre as sho nea de cunavalre held andre sorrrige and serin or her or mis no or their o vla a thisqui gulimerus for heart he telo rus and egg and sogiar and go lifts quality tap also how did it off that to a <unk>ka and steinel and koulleen alsoson symbolis theiata soegin danar and conscious good leggged and puts to see there the leg the text of mas metal isit to hold ne home elosta nature um led you no aunt mary not have the scenener it to all that forbi that messig whatever They a the
00:39:31
Speaker
of no i got bush tell us saw to go up and no one said how mr the tell hiss called missag leave l la southerne or that hint ok cunarude and a country come on can you i' know voca to each other To get light for those who have gone away.
00:39:47
Speaker
ah yeah at and sisters little all ah go bus to about the cult for the at monska fifty old but ah but to come by and more the mon come you had enough he do tell them might care they into that does he no i i then that woveron and i didn't know what left some shared some year of mu includ there s sogan Or a or the sky in a certain way, but that it will easier to live and more meaningful.
Encouraging Open Seminars on Life and Death
00:40:15
Speaker
Yes, I think you are right. It's about the del-sorget, half-sorget and the glede and the double-glede. There is something in it.
00:40:23
Speaker
that sortga huergo therelada doublela ah that dan we listen the What can you a the and me,
00:40:57
Speaker
So I'm glad we still have Memento Mori and we will have more in the course of the year. It's not just the ones we lead together, but also the others who lead Memento Mori together, who take up some of the topics related to life and death, which think can be a big deal for many to be with. So I'm very thankful for that Holistic Forbund is a platform that we can meet about this. And I hope that there will be other places in the world where there will be more room for both the death and the death. Would you say something to the end of the conversation with this?
00:41:35
Speaker
and I would first of him talk for art the spiritto avi vamo del let to them mean i may die for the asin star even now yeah mit andka ho ira countryvinna comema dipo nooop some i had some canva in nosta ter and for one or two with what we say, I'm happy to see you.
00:42:00
Speaker
i often wait per mo i yeah I hope that there are some who can feel that it was a little good to hear. That's what hope. That's my wish. So, thank you very much.
00:42:13
Speaker
I'm very happy. Thank you. I hope that some will be involved in the conversation we've had. I would like to hear from those who have the theme connected to both the death and the death, which they want talk about in the forum we can create in Holistic Forbund. We have more seminars.
00:42:32
Speaker
will be a little bit vinkling and a little bit of a theme we do every day. So we are very open for proposals to hear what people are interested in Thank you for the talk today Elspeth and thank you for listening.