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Embracing Authenticity: Navigating Imposter Syndrome
122 Plays1 year ago
Imposter Syndrome got you feeling like a fraud? It honestly can be crippling but trust me when I say it happens to the best of us! In this week’s episode Julie sat down with Morgan McGill to discuss how to work through imposter syndrome and feel more confident in yourself.
About today's guest:
Morgan McGill is a Licensed Professional Counselor and owner of Wildwood Counseling, a private practice that caters to supporting women through trauma, anxiety, and self-esteem issues. Morgan is also a mindfulness instructor and registered yoga teacher. She runs the Youtube Channel "Wildwood Mindfulness" where she shares a plethora of meditative practices, helping people be more present and compassionate.
Resources:
Youtube Channel:
Get in touch with Morgan:
Practice Website:
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Transcript
Season 2 Introduction
00:00:11
Speaker
Welcome back to season two of Outside of Session. I'm your host, licensed clinical social worker, and therapist BFF, Julie Hilton. This season, I'm interviewing some incredible guests who also happen to be experts in their fields. Mental health, motherhood, spirituality, and so much more, I can't wait for their stories to be told. These are all the conversations I'm having outside of session.
Exploring Imposter Syndrome
00:00:46
Speaker
Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of outside of session. On today's episode, we're going to be talking about imposter syndrome. And if that's not a term that you're familiar with right now, no worries because you're going to learn all about it today. And I have a feeling that at least on some level, you'll know exactly what this feels like.
Meet Morgan McGill
00:01:07
Speaker
I sat down with Morgan McGill, who is also a therapist here in Alpharetta, to talk about why imposter syndrome shows up, how even therapists feel it at times, and just some tips for feeling more confident. Morgan McGill is a licensed professional counselor and she's the owner of Wildwood Counseling. It's a private practice that caters to supporting women through trauma, anxiety, and self-esteem issues. Morgan is also a mindfulness instructor and a registered yoga teacher.
00:01:36
Speaker
She also runs the YouTube channel Wildwood Mindfulness where she shares a plethora of meditative practices helping people be more present and compassionate. And we're going to talk all about her YouTube channel as well. She has put together some amazing resources that I tell all of my clients about and there are all these wonderful guided meditations. So we're going to get into all of that today as well. And I'll make sure to put that info in the show notes so that you can check her out.
00:02:03
Speaker
So with all of that being said, thank you so much for tuning in as we talk with Morgan about imposter syndrome.
00:02:14
Speaker
Hey, Morgan. Hi, how are you? I'm good. Thank you so much for being here this morning. Thank you for having me. This is super fun and exciting, and I appreciate you even just having this podcast. It's been such a pleasure listening to it weekly. Oh, thank you so much. Yeah.
Imposter Syndrome in Therapists
00:02:30
Speaker
Morgan is right across the hall from me this morning recording in her office.
00:02:35
Speaker
And it's so funny, we were just laughing before we hit record about how we both have imposter syndrome about recording an episode about imposter syndrome. Yeah, I had those, those thoughts arise this morning. And they were saying, you know, all the imposter beliefs, right, about talking about imposter. I had a moment where I just kind of laughed. And I was like, this is ridiculous.
00:03:01
Speaker
Come, come back. We're okay. Yeah. And so it was it was funny to just experience that.
00:03:07
Speaker
Yeah, coming on podcast talking about it. But you know, one of the reasons why I wanted to have this conversation is I know a lot of clients and like nonclinical people listen to this podcast. But I also know that there are a lot of my therapist friends and colleagues that listen as well. And imposter syndrome is huge in the therapeutic community. And I think it's because of the work we do, which we'll get into a lot in just a minute about what even is imposter syndrome. So I think it could be
00:03:34
Speaker
I don't know, I'm excited to have this conversation just because I think it normalizes it a little bit and it reminds us that no one can completely escape it, I guess. Yes. At some points in our career. Absolutely.
00:03:48
Speaker
So before we just dive into all things about imposter syndrome, I wanted to see if we could start with just having you tell a little bit about yourself as a therapist and what the journey has been like for you to arrive at the place that you are now, like a fully licensed therapist, you have your own private practice, you're thriving. I just wanted to, I wanted you to share with everyone a little bit about how you arrived here.
00:04:12
Speaker
Yes. It has been a process, as I'm sure you can share that sentiment.
Morgan's Journey to Counseling
00:04:19
Speaker
It is definitely a process. I tell this story sometimes of, I was actually a geology major for three years before I even switched to psychology, so I was on a very different life path. I did not know that about you.
00:04:35
Speaker
Yeah. And I changed it. I mean, the absolute last minute you could to graduate on time. And I think I really at that time listened to my inner compass of what are you not only, you know, seemingly academically gifted at, but also what is matching some natural skills that you have.
00:04:55
Speaker
And I'd always felt like a highly sensitive and pathic, intuitive person. And so naturally psychology was really interesting to me. And so went down that route, went straight to grad school after that, and was up in Kentucky for a while where I did crisis assessments and also a lot of addiction counseling for heroin and opiate dependence.
00:05:23
Speaker
And then what I noticed there was how much trauma work I was doing within the addiction community. And that is really where I started specializing in trauma and realizing how much I loved doing that work with people and how rewarding it was. And so I started to explore what if I went out on my own and what if I really created a space that I've always
00:05:54
Speaker
you know, dreamed of creating for clients, especially clients who experienced trauma. And that's what eventually led me to starting my own private practice. And right now I've been in it for about two years now and have felt so grounded in that decision to go out on my own. So it's been a really rewarding journey so far.
00:06:19
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I feel like we have a lot of the same story because we are both in private practice and we have a lot of the same specialties. Like we have, we work with kind of the same population. And we have a lot of the same trainings and stuff like that. But I think you're right, like
00:06:39
Speaker
imposter syndrome definitely can be a huge hurdle to get over. And I did a whole episode last season on entrepreneurship and how it is not for the week. Yes. Like figuring this out is, is no small undertaking. And there are lots of the, well, for me, there was a lot of tears along the way. Um, there have been a lot of tears starting this.
00:07:03
Speaker
podcast. Every time you're starting something new, it feels like that imposter center room can sneak back up on you. But like you're saying right now, the other side of it when you feel like I know that what I have created is aligned with where I'm supposed to be and it's allowing me to be who I'm supposed to be. That is such a fulfilling
00:07:25
Speaker
of like your purpose, but also just like a piece. I don't know about you, but I just have a lot of peace where I am. Yes. Yeah. I feel very similar to that. And that in imposter feelings were there the whole time and they're still there. But I think they coexist with this just inner wisdom that this is the right path. And so, yeah, it's it's and we can talk about it more obviously in this in this
00:07:53
Speaker
podcast of just how I've worked through it and how I help clients. Yeah, I definitely want to hear how to work through it, but let's back up a second just because I think I've heard imposter syndrome so much now that I kind of thought it was a well-known term, but I posted on my Instagram a couple of days ago, if anybody has any questions about imposter syndrome, let me know because I'm about to record an episode on it.
Understanding Imposter Syndrome
00:08:16
Speaker
And even one of my very best friends was just like, what is imposter syndrome? I've heard it before, but I don't really understand it. So let's make sure that we give a good understanding of what even is imposter syndrome. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, I've been somewhat surprised that I hear this term all the time. My friends hear this term all the time.
00:08:36
Speaker
clients hear this term, but then there's not a lot of talk around what it is. So yeah, that sounds really important for me to talk about. So when somebody is experiencing imposter feelings, you might hear the terms imposter syndrome, imposter feelings, imposter phenomenon.
00:08:53
Speaker
all really the same thing. So what you'll find is this is somebody who's experiencing pretty significant self-doubt. They're doubting their intelligence, their skills, their accomplishments, their thoughts of, I'm incompetent. And as the name suggests, I'm an imposter. I'm a fraud. And what I find is that people who are experiencing this more intensely
00:09:20
Speaker
tend to under identify with their successes. And so if they accomplish something or they succeed at something, it's not because, Oh, I worked so hard, look at all my skills and strengths, you know, that have led me to this accomplishment. It's, Oh, I'm lucky, or
00:09:37
Speaker
or I don't deserve this. And so they really dismiss their own accomplishments, their own strengths and skills. But then on the other side, they over identify with perceived mistakes or perceived failures. And so when they make a mistake, or they perceive a failure to have happened,
00:09:56
Speaker
It's, I'm incompetent, I'm incapable, you know, I'm stupid, I'm inferior. And so, yeah, it's this under-identification with successes and over-identification with mistakes and failures. Yeah, that sums it up. We own our failures as our own, and it almost feels like it's part of our identity in a way.
00:10:20
Speaker
But we do not own, not just our accomplishments, but what we've worked so dang hard to get, right? Like our degrees, our certifications, and I'm particularly speaking coming from the therapist's point of view, but it happens in lots of different areas of life, not just professionally, right? So let's talk about that a little bit. Where do you see it show up? Because I immediately think about professionally because
00:10:47
Speaker
Whether you think about, like I've had clients that are doctors that still feel unqualified. I know that there have been so many times in sessions where it creeps up at me and I'm like, how am I supposed to help this person? What makes me qualified to be able to guide this person through this experience, through this pain, right? So I think about it a lot professionally, but what are some of the areas that you see besides our career where it shows?
00:11:12
Speaker
Yeah, I definitely see it professionally and also in relationships. And I see this come out a lot where, and these are some signals for me to know, okay, maybe there's some imposter feelings there. If a client is expressing that they are constantly seeking validation from their partner of
00:11:34
Speaker
constantly thinking, do you love me? Am I enough? That type of validation. When they're seeking that a lot, usually that's a signal for me that there's something going on underneath the surface saying, I'm not good enough or I'm inferior in some way in this relationship. I also see, and this can be professionally or in relationships as well, of people not taking opportunities for themselves.
00:12:01
Speaker
whether that's a relationship or a work opportunity, the self paralysis, there's a self sabotaging going on because the underlying are feelings of not being good enough, not being capable, not being competent.
00:12:17
Speaker
that? Yes. I'm thinking of women who don't apply for jobs. Yes. Have you seen those statistics about I don't know where I read this, but it was like if a job posting has 10 requirements, if a man
00:12:33
Speaker
can check off like three of the 10 boxes. He'll be like, oh, I'll go for it. But a woman, if she can check off nine out of 10, she'll still feel unqualified and is less likely to apply for the job. Wow. I did not know that, but the numbers were staggering. I don't know if it was exactly that, but the numbers were staggering. Like women would say, I need to be able to
00:12:54
Speaker
cross off 10 out of 10 in order to even apply for the position. But men were more likely to apply if they even had like a handful of the qualifications. Oh, yeah. Oh, that hurts my heart. Yeah. Yeah. But that is so grounded in my experience, professional or personally and professionally working with clients. Um, yeah. Where so many clients that I've talked to,
00:13:19
Speaker
have not taken opportunities. And we've had to work in encouraging themselves to take those opportunities, even if it feels like, oh, I'm not going to be able to do this. But that is so interesting and very congruent with my experience. Yeah. So do you think relationally it shows up in ways of like,
00:13:40
Speaker
people having a hard time swiping right or they have a hard time asking the person out on a date because they are just telling themselves I'll be rejected basically because they don't feel like they are good enough. Yes, absolutely. It's kind of the mentality of I'm just going to be disappointed so I'm not even going to try. I'm not going to be good enough for this person so I'm not even going to try. And so yeah, I can see it.
00:14:08
Speaker
really impacting and being such a barrier for people to just connect with other people. And it's really interesting because imposter syndrome and social disruptions and social anxiety are positively correlated. So the higher the imposter feelings, the higher the social anxiety typically. And so it really presents as a barrier to just connection with others. Yeah.
00:14:35
Speaker
You know what I'm even thinking about is so much in the work that we do for trauma work, we're helping clients be able to identify what those core negative beliefs are. And if you don't know what a core negative belief is, go listen to season one. Cause I, I talked about core negative ways a lot, especially in the trauma episodes, but essentially it's like the beliefs that you learn about yourself because of negative experiences that you have. And I'm not good enough as one of the most common ones that I see.
00:15:05
Speaker
That even if you didn't have a lot of big T trauma, like the life or death kind of trauma, that life just kind of like serves that one up on a platter to us, right? Absolutely. Between grades and social standards and beauty standards and all these different things that were forced on us by society, it's unfortunately very normal to develop some level of feeling not good enough. And that can be at our very core.
00:15:32
Speaker
And what you're saying is that one of the side effects of that core negative belief is to have these imposter feelings. So it's kind of like a symptom of a core negative belief. Yes, yes. And I do find that it's a helpful reminder for myself and also anyone who's listening that this, you know, imposter feelings, there is a common human experience with this, you know.
00:15:57
Speaker
nearly all human beings are going to have experience of doubting themselves and feeling incompetent and maybe feeling like an imposter. And so what I like to remind myself is like, ugh, we all experience this. And because I think imposter feelings can really isolate me and other people, it's saying I'm incompetent, but everyone else I see is capable and competent and worthy.
00:16:22
Speaker
And so it immediately isolates me and that can just be so miserable to live in that. Yeah.
First-time Nerves or Imposter Syndrome?
00:16:33
Speaker
You know, I hadn't thought about this before, but it, but what you're saying is making me think about the first time you do something, you are a beginner, right? And so like even the first time I recorded an episode of this podcast, I was like,
00:16:53
Speaker
have borderline panic attack, right? Like it is not live. Like I could delete it if I didn't like it and I knew that, but I still was so nervous, right? But I'm even wondering right now, what's the difference in this is the first time I've done this and I'm nervous about it because I haven't experienced this before versus true imposter syndrome. Cause I'm even thinking about, I don't know why, but a surgeon is coming to mind. If it's the first time you're performing open heart surgery, I want you to be a little bit nervous.
00:17:21
Speaker
Yes. I guess I don't want you coming in your first time saying like, I'm a pro. There's a way I can mess up. I guess now that I'm thinking about it, I don't know that that's imposter syndrome.
00:17:32
Speaker
Mm hmm. I like to think about when I think about imposter feelings is it's on a spectrum where maybe on the one extreme and it is true imposter feelings. And then there's healthy anxiety, healthy concern, healthy worry about that's grounded in a place of wanting to do a good job and wanting to help other people.
00:17:56
Speaker
And so that, that I find it's helpful to differentiate that for people. I think that really, that actually really helps me too, because I'm thinking about even with some of the therapists that I have recorded these podcasts with, there's something that comes up in me that makes me more nervous to record some episodes than others.
00:18:20
Speaker
Yes. And I'm realizing that it has nothing to do with whether or not this is my first time doing it and I'm naturally nervous versus there is something about maybe another person's skill set that can make me feel less competent, right? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
00:18:38
Speaker
It's so much about comparing ourselves to other people. Yeah, at least that's been my experience. And so there might be something about another person right about their skill set that is is activating that part of me saying, Oh, I don't know a lot about that. And that then
00:18:59
Speaker
triggers maybe this whole feeling of, I'm not good enough. Why don't I know this? I need to know.
Comparing Expertise and Self-Doubt
00:19:07
Speaker
Yeah. It's interesting you say that because I think that I am more likely to feel those imposter feelings if I'm speaking to someone
00:19:16
Speaker
that I'm more similar with. 100% agree with you. Do you? Yes, I share that with you. It is mainly around my colleagues and peers about it. So I'm thinking I recorded an episode a couple of weeks ago with someone about OCD.
00:19:33
Speaker
Um, and I'm like, not my specialty. I don't have to know anything when I show up. But when I record with someone about EMDR or trauma, that's where it shows up a little bit more because I'm like.
00:19:49
Speaker
I'm supposed to know a lot about this. And all of a sudden I feel like I don't, even though it's what I do every single day. So those imposter feelings are more likely to come up in a scenario where I'm telling myself I should know and I should be an expert. And my imposter voice says, you're no expert. What right do you have to say that you're an expert about something? That's where it shows up.
00:20:14
Speaker
totally dismissing, right? All of the work, all of the work, all the experience that, you know, I know we both have. It's almost like the imposter, you know, and I might talk about some parts work a little bit later, but it's almost like this imposter part blinds me of
00:20:32
Speaker
my skills, my strengths, but my lived experience. It's like it completely forgets what I've done. And so yeah, it can be so tough to handle that. But yeah, it comes up a lot when I'm with peers and colleagues. It does. And I think that that's a vulnerable thing for us to admit.
00:20:54
Speaker
Yes. Especially knowing that we potentially have our actual clients listening to some of these episodes. Yeah. And a reminder that, again, it's not a reflection of our skillset, but it's a reflection of our humanity. Yes. And that we all have stuff to work through, that we all have natural anxieties and that this is like, we are not exempt from those feelings of not being good enough. Right. Right. Right. Yeah.
00:21:22
Speaker
One thing that you've helped me with, and you shared this with me, right? I think when we first met of just being a human being in the therapy room and how wonderful that has been for me to bring more of my humanity into the therapy session. Because the more we talk about what we're experiencing, the more it normalizes.
00:21:46
Speaker
And the less likely I am to feel alone in the imposter feelings, which the imposter feelings are inevitably doing to me. And so the more that we talk about this, it's just so validating. It's so affirming that this is OK. And there is a way out of this. And there's a way to navigate this. Yeah. But we have to normalize it. We have to normalize it. And I don't know about you, but when you work with a lot of trauma,
00:22:14
Speaker
people who have survived trauma, one of their super skills from the trauma is that they read people really, really well. Yes. And so if we are bullshitting them in session, they're going to be able to stay right through us anyways, and they're not going to want to. Yes. Yeah. That is so true. Yeah. And I so appreciate that about those clients because it challenges me to be my most authentic self in the therapy room. So yeah. Yeah. And I think when we were talking earlier about like,
00:22:44
Speaker
where we are in our career, just really being our most authentic self and having a lot of peace. I think that's a huge piece of it is because I don't feel like I have to be something that I'm not with my clients. And I think that they really appreciate that. Like they, they know me pretty well the same way that I know them. Hey everyone. I just wanted to pause for a quick moment to say thank you so much for all the love and support that you're showing outside of session.
00:23:14
Speaker
If you haven't already, do me a huge favor and hit the subscribe button. Give me a five star review and share this podcast with all of your friends. Help me take this show to another level. Now back to today's episode.
00:23:31
Speaker
So I wanted to, let's talk a little bit more about, um, over the years as you've been growing as a therapist, how has it shown up for you personally? And what has that process been like working through it? Because you mentioned before we started recording that that actually has helped to guide you in a lot of now positive ways. Oh yeah. Yeah. What's that been like?
00:23:53
Speaker
Yeah, so I go back to what you were talking about with core negative beliefs. And just knowing this from my own childhood, that was a belief that was pretty strong throughout my life. And I was a pretty insecure child and highly sensitive. And so I took in a lot and I tried to make sense of a lot. And what happened is I made sense of a lot of my experiences that
00:24:22
Speaker
I'm not good enough. I'm not smart enough. I'm not confident in myself. I don't trust myself. And so I kind of already had those foundational core beliefs there.
00:24:33
Speaker
when it really got to the point where I knew I needed support and guidance for it was when I got into grad school. And I was sitting in this room, I remember, and I looked around at all my cohort. I had about a 15 person cohort, it was pretty small. And I looked around the room and I was having all these positive thoughts about other people. I was thinking, oh, they're so smart. Look at all their experience they have. They're gonna be amazing therapists.
00:25:03
Speaker
And then my inner narrative was, you don't belong here. They made a mistake letting you in. Just really harmful self talk. And that's when I knew I've got to figure this out. And I'm in a counseling program, right? I've really got to figure this out. And so there was a lot of motivation there. And I
00:25:25
Speaker
I got with a therapist who, and I didn't even know this when I started beginning, she just was in my insurance network. And so I went forward with working with her and she was the first person to expose me to mindfulness and meditation.
Mindfulness as a Tool
00:25:42
Speaker
And that's when I was, I mean, I was 23, 24 around that time. And it was at a time when I did not know this, but I desperately needed some
00:25:53
Speaker
some guidance and how I could help myself through this. And so she started encouraging me to do a daily meditative practice. And it was so hard at first. What the heck is this? And I felt so anxious, so restless during it. And I was like, Oh, I'm doing this wrong. And she just kept there with me. She was like,
00:26:17
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. Let's just keep doing it. Just keep doing it and see what you notice. And what it did, and this is over a span of a couple, several months, I learned how to become more of an observer.
00:26:32
Speaker
of my experience rather than being stuck in this like habitual reactivity over and over again. And with the imposter feelings, it was so helpful because she taught me and my meditation taught me that thoughts think themselves. You know, there's synapses firing in my brain and that if I can slow down just enough and I can observe them a little bit more
00:26:59
Speaker
I then have a space where I can choose, is this a thought that feels helpful to me? Is this a thought that if I identify with it is going to help me be kind to myself, be helpful in me working towards my goals? Or is it a thought that's really going to present as a barrier to me? And so mindfulness gave me that in this therapy with this therapist, it gave me that
00:27:24
Speaker
permission to slow down and just attend to what's happening and then have a choice. And so that was, that was a really liberating, powerful thing that happened to me at the beginning of my career. Yeah. So for anybody listening, tell them one more time, how long did it take doing meditations before you started feeling the effect? I would say realistically, uh,
00:27:50
Speaker
three to six months. Months, people. You cannot do a meditation for a week. No. It doesn't help. It isn't helpful to throw it in the trash. Yeah. Yeah. That's something that I know takes a lot of effort. I know that personally, but it's something I constantly
00:28:13
Speaker
encourage myself to do. And it's a way to also, you know, a daily practice like that is something I it's a commitment I make to myself and I trust myself because I'm maintaining that commitment over and over again. But but that therapist was really what kind of got me started and how and learning how to navigate the imposter feelings that I was experiencing.
00:28:39
Speaker
So I feel like now is a good time to also mention that you now have a YouTube channel. Yes, I do. Yes. For this very reason, because I know you wanted to create a free resource for your clients and for anyone that wants to start a mindfulness practice. Tell us a little bit about your channel. I would be so happy to. Thank you. Yeah, I realized I was doing all these practices myself.
00:29:04
Speaker
And then I was doing all these practices with clients. And I just had a thought of why would I just keep this contained to this room? Why don't I share this? And so I started it, I think, almost a year ago.
00:29:20
Speaker
and it's called Wildwood Mindfulness and it's on YouTube. And I just pretty much write meditations that I have used, that I use with clients and just upload those so that anyone can benefit from it. And a lot of my meditations focus on mindful self-compassion on there, which is a very
00:29:43
Speaker
Um, effective, um, tool, I would say for imposter feelings. Yeah, for sure. And y'all, these are really good. Like I'm not just saying that cause I like Morgan. They're really awesome. And I will make sure to put those details in the show notes so that you guys can find her. I literally have these playing in the background while I'm doing work all the time. I share it with my clients. Like, um, definitely go subscribe to her channel. They are great. I know you have some for like.
00:30:10
Speaker
falling asleep at night, having gratitude for having self compassion. Like you said, um, I know you did one that was like getting ready for work in the mornings. Like we have anxiety about work. Um, she's, she's got like a huge variety on there. So definitely check those out.
00:30:27
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's been a fun process. Yeah. So how do you feel? So when you first started working through this, and I like how you said that this practice helped you to learn to have that space between your thoughts and that kind of like the decision that you made about how you feel about those thoughts, right? How do you think that that ended up
00:30:51
Speaker
transforming even in your career as you moved forward as a therapist? How did that end up impacting the direction that you went? Yeah. Well, I have to always give credit to other tools that helped me because mindfulness, I view it as this, is that it gave me the foundation
00:31:15
Speaker
to attend to my internal experience in a very non-judgmental, curious way.
Therapeutic Approaches to Imposter Syndrome
00:31:21
Speaker
And so it gave me that foundational skill set to do that. But then, fast forward a couple years, I started doing parts work with a therapist. And I would say that is when something shifted for me. And I don't know if we want to talk about parts work, if it would be helpful to
00:31:45
Speaker
just name that or define that. So I think everybody knows how much I love parts work. Yeah. And I know a lot of people are interested in it right now because it goes hand in hand with working on healing your inner child, which I'm really big on. So I mean, that was going to be my next question is how do you help clients who are working through their imposter syndrome? So that probably goes together, like your own experience. So yeah, share a little bit about how you help clients with that, but also what that was like for you to name that part.
00:32:14
Speaker
Yes. I guess I'll start with my personal experience with it because like you said, it really guided what I did professionally with clients. What was happening is mindfulness gave me those skills to notice the imposter feelings arise and then be curious and non-judgmental about it. But what parts work did is gave me the tools to attend to that part that was arising.
00:32:39
Speaker
So not just noticing and redirecting, but also noticing and attending to. And I realized through my parts work that my imposter feeling part at the foundation of it
00:32:53
Speaker
was a curious learner, always had a student mind. It was a part that desperately wanted to belong. It wanted to be accepted. It wanted to be loved. And so I saw it for having such beautiful good intentions at the foundation of it. And so what parts work did is it gave me the opportunity to to soothe
00:33:20
Speaker
and take care of that part of me and remind that part of that. I see that and life is hard and I want to belong and I want to be accepted and I want to be loved. And so yeah, PartsWork really gave me that opportunity to express all of that self-compassion. And so in a way, I had two kind of tools, you know, within my system. I had the tool to slow down and breathe and attend to my internal experience, but then I had this tool of,
00:33:49
Speaker
soothing and nurturing and healing myself from within. So it was a really beautiful process. And then because of my experience with that, it naturally educated what I thought would be beneficial for clients. And that has remained true in just the work I've done with clients that I typically recommend clients to begin with some type of contemplative practice like journaling, meditation, yoga, prayer,
00:34:18
Speaker
something that is self-reflective in some way so that they can begin to learn how to attend to themselves in a non-judgmental, curious way. And then going into the parts work, starting to notice what parts are arising and giving the tools to them of this is how we do part soothing work. Yeah. One thing that I've noticed is that if we ever have a critical part,
00:34:49
Speaker
Which our imposter part is critical, right? It's telling us that we don't belong here. It's telling us that we're a fraud, all of these things. It initially sounds critical. But as you get to know it through doing parts work, you realize that it always has some kind of protection for you. It is always trying to protect you from some pain. Yes.
00:35:10
Speaker
And sometimes it's protecting in a way of I'm going to tell you that you don't fit in before someone else gives you that message so that you don't get caught off guard. Do you see that a lot? Absolutely. Yeah. What are some of those other things that maybe you see that is the reason why that part takes that position? Can you ask that one more time?
00:35:30
Speaker
Yeah, I guess I'm just thinking, um, like I noticed that those critical parts typically want to protect us from something. What are some of the typical things that you see that once people get to know this part, they realize like, Oh, that's what it doesn't want me to experience. And so it's doing this thing where it's kind of like beating me up, telling me I don't belong, but really what it wants for me is something.
00:35:55
Speaker
to help me avoid some kind of pain. Yes. Yeah. I see this a lot of wanting to avoid rejection, wanting to avoid shame or embarrassment. And so if we go back to earlier in the conversation of people not taking opportunities for themselves, I'm not going to take this opportunity because my imposter feelings are trying to protect me from possibly feeling even more incompetent or feeling more incapable.
00:36:24
Speaker
And so, yeah, it is such a protective part. And it goes about protecting in a way that might not always be very helpful because it presents as such a barrier to our growth and progress.
00:36:43
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So when people, when clients present in your office, they may not, they might not use this language with themselves. They may never heard of imposter syndrome before. What are some of the other things that you notice kind of go hand in hand with it that people might be able to relate to and say, Oh, I do know that about myself. Yes. Um, so I see a lot of, um,
00:37:10
Speaker
correlation with anxiety, social anxiety, depression, low self-esteem is very much so connected. So the lower the self-esteem, usually the higher imposter feelings and vice versa.
00:37:27
Speaker
Um, a lot of perfectionist tendencies. Um, typically I see within imposter feelings as well. Um, and what's really interesting, what I've noticed is that it can kind of go, um, obviously it exists on a spectrum, but I, I kind of see these two ways that it can manifest, um, in someone's behaviors where, um, a person might have imposter feelings, just feeling like an underlying, you know, I feel incompetent. I feel like a fraud. I feel like an imposter.
00:37:57
Speaker
And then they are just high achieving, overworking individuals, right? Where it's, I have to do all these things. I have to take all these opportunities and I have to prove myself to myself over and over and over again. But it tends to be a never ending track that they're on, right? The thing that they do doesn't give them the piece that they're looking for.
00:38:23
Speaker
I also see that it can lead to just that self paralysis where somebody is feeling not good enough and then it's the why even try. And so I kind of see it manifest in those two different ways mainly when a client comes into the room with me.
00:38:41
Speaker
And I think another thing that I noticed is that a lot of times it shows up almost as like a self-fulfilling prophecy. If we go into a situation and we tell ourselves we're not good enough, we tell ourselves we're not going to do well, we tell ourselves
00:38:58
Speaker
Maybe it's a student and they're saying, I don't know why I took this class. I'm going to bomb it. Um, or I don't know why I, you know, if they can get themselves to apply for the job, they're telling themselves going into the interview, this is going to go terrible, terribly. And then when you have those negative thoughts,
00:39:16
Speaker
you're more anxious, which causes us to be a little bit more shut down. When I'm anxious, I tend to stutter and like can't get my thoughts together. And so I don't really show up as my confident or even just like my most neutral self, right? Like I show up as like not my best self because I'm having all of these feelings. And then when I do that, it's more likely that
00:39:46
Speaker
the, the negative experience will happen. Like I am more likely to bomb the interview. Yes. Because I can't get my thoughts together, you know? And so they're going to see me as like, Oh, she's not very confident. And then you walk away with that feeling of see, it's reinforced. Yeah. I told, I told myself this wasn't a good idea. And now I have a piece of evidence that that was right. Yes.
00:40:08
Speaker
Which like you said, yeah, it reinforces that belief. And so next time I'm even less likely to apply for the job because I'm going to say, no, I know how this goes. And I think that, um, that part kind of holds onto that and use it, it uses it against us later on to say, no, you remember the last interview you did. You remember the last date you went on, whatever it is notebook of evidence. Yeah. For us to not take the next opportunity. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:40:35
Speaker
So what would you say if you have a client come in and maybe you're helping them to realize that they have some of these imposter thoughts, imposter feelings. And that part does kind of push back and say, no, I literally have a laundry list of evidence that I have proof of it, right? How do you begin to work with someone who feels this is not just a belief about myself. This is an actual, this is lived experience.
00:41:01
Speaker
Yes, I think what's really important is honoring my lived experience and the client's lived experience because that part has lived experience of that being a valid belief that it would be hard not to believe that about itself through the lived experiences. And so I think for my work with clients, so much of it is the client telling their story and telling their lived experience.
00:41:30
Speaker
and me normalizing and validating that for them and for the part because it just makes sense that a part of this person will be feeling that way when their lived experience is telling them all of this. So I really think it begins with just honoring another person's lived experience by validating and normalizing.
00:41:52
Speaker
I like that. So before we started recording, you mentioned some research that you found that I wanted you to talk about because I thought that that was really, really interesting about parental. Yeah, tell us about that. Yeah, absolutely.
Roots of Imposter Syndrome
00:42:09
Speaker
Yeah, I thought this was really interesting. And I connected with it personally. And I also thought of so many clients who had also had this experience. So they found a positive correlation between parental over control
00:42:22
Speaker
and imposter feelings. And so the more controlling a parent would be, the more likely the child would be to develop intense feelings of an imposter syndrome. And I found that just so fascinating just because what I saw happen for me and what I see happen for a lot of clients is when a parent is over controlling in a way, right, protecting their child from
00:42:48
Speaker
trying to from everything, right? Not really respecting their child's agency and letting them fail and letting them make mistakes. And what happens is the child interprets that as my parent or my caregiver doesn't trust me. They don't trust my competence. They don't trust in my capabilities. And so then that then leads to the self-concept of
00:43:13
Speaker
I'm not confident in myself. I can't trust me. I'm incompetent. And so I thought that was just really interesting and just really congruent with my experience and other clients' experiences.
00:43:26
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And I know people have heard me say this a million times on this podcast that I think one of the, when you talk about the complex trauma of parents that either are emotionally unavailable or this is a little bit different. I wouldn't say that this is unavailable, but potentially emotionally immature parents who can't
00:43:48
Speaker
sit with their child having any kind of negative experience, which should be a teaching moment and allowing the child to grow, right? That wherever it is on the
00:44:03
Speaker
on the table, it's clients lose their ability to trust themselves. That is one of the biggest side effects of any kind of trauma I feel like. We don't trust our decisions, we don't trust our ability to
00:44:20
Speaker
like read red flags, things like that. Um, and yeah, that's exactly what you're talking about. And so essentially when you're saying like the imposter syndrome, a lot of that is not trusting self. So logically you can know you have the degree, but emotionally you feel like, but I'm still not qualified. I still don't trust myself that this degree has given me the tools that I need. It's just a, you know, it's just a piece of paper. It doesn't actually apply to me in this moment.
00:44:46
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Going back to those lived experiences, especially traumatic experiences, we're going to interpret that in the best way that we can. And unfortunately, some of those experiences are interpreted as there is something wrong with me and I can't trust myself. And that to me,
00:45:10
Speaker
And this is something important that I always try to share with clients and try to work with them about is that it is learned. We can begin to learn how to unlearn it. And because we know we've made the connection, and this is why I think exploring past experiences is so important to understanding our current functioning. Because once you understand the connection,
00:45:35
Speaker
you can then start to dismantle and challenge some of those beliefs that no longer feel like your truth, or you don't want it to be your truth anymore. And so a lot of my work with clients is a lot of honoring the lived experience, but then going forward and learning how to unlearn some of these conditioned beliefs about themselves. Yeah, I love that. And I think that also offers hope. Yes.
00:46:05
Speaker
Because you're right. A lot of times it feels like it becomes part of our identity. I am not good enough. Yeah.
00:46:14
Speaker
Um, I am bad. I am wrong. And realizing that that feels like fact, but that is a learned belief. And I love what you said. If it was learned, it can be unlearned. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I love that. It's really, I find a very important reminder for myself. And I've also just seen it be really liberating for clients that
00:46:38
Speaker
I don't have to be defined by this experience that I had no control over. And to work on releasing some of that and reclaiming what is inherently true about themselves. It's just a really, I always wanna remind people that there is a way out of trauma and there's a way to get back to yourself.
00:47:03
Speaker
from those experiences. Yeah, absolutely.
Advice to the Younger Self
00:47:07
Speaker
I love that so much. Yeah. Will you be my therapist? Totally joking. But before we go, I do want to ask you the question that I ask all of my guests on the show. And that is especially for you, because I feel like you're so into parts work like I am. Yeah. I know you probably love this question, but if you could go back and tell your younger self one thing, what would it be?
00:47:32
Speaker
Can it be a couple of sentences? It can be as much as you want. I feel like if you're like me, you talk to her all the time, probably. I do. I was talking to her this morning. I was talking to her during this conversation. Yeah, she's always there. I think I would tell her you are not alone. You are more capable than you know you are. And I am so proud of you.
00:48:04
Speaker
Yeah. Sometimes when I hear things like that, I just think to myself, like what it would have felt like to hear those things. Oh, I know. Chokes me up when I think about it. I know. And how good it is for her to hear it now. It's never too late to be able to go back and give that to our younger self. Yes. Yeah. And I just so appreciate you asking that question and giving me that opportunity to say that to myself. Yeah. Morgan, thank you so much for being here today. Thank you, Julie. This has been such a pleasure. And I'm so happy that we did this.
00:48:33
Speaker
And we made it through and we are totally capable of doing this. Yes. I am competent. I am capable.
00:48:42
Speaker
Okay. So everybody don't forget Morgan's, um, YouTube channel. I'm going to put that in the show notes so that you guys can go check it out. And again, if you're starting any kind of meditative practice, please give yourself time to get used to it. It's not going to feel comfortable at first. It's not going to feel natural. It is going to feel like a huge struggle. Yes. Just like any other kind of exercise that you're starting, but the benefits on the other side are so huge. Yes.
00:49:07
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. Stick with it. Yeah. And thank you so much. This was such a wonderful experience, Julie. So glad to have you. That's all we have today. I hope everyone has a great week and we will talk to you next week. Bye.
00:49:23
Speaker
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Outside of Session. Remember, while I am a licensed therapist, this podcast is not a substitute for individual therapy. The contents of this episode are for educational and entertainment purposes only. If you are having a mental health emergency, please dial 911 for immediate assistance or dial 988 for the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.