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Rob Reider - SAD DADS CLUB
50 Plays4 months ago
Join us as we speak with Rob Reider, Co-Founder and Exec. Director of the Sad Dads Club.
Rob and his wife Tehliah lost their daughter Lila to stillbirth in December of 2017. Through his grief, Rob co-founded SAD DADS CLUB alongside Jay (Bella’s dad) and Chris (Izzy’s dad) to create a space where fathers can connect and support one another through pregnancy and infant loss.
This growing community fosters a safe space for men to be vulnerable, expressive, and supportive of one another. SAD DADS CLUB is on a mission to redefine masculinity, showing that true strength lies in emotional openness and healthy expression. By nurturing a strong support system and providing access to mental health resources, SAD DADS CLUB helps bereaved fathers navigate life after loss.
Thank you Rob for sharing your story and we know you and your dads will help so many others!
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Transcript
Introductions
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi, I'm Nicole. And I'm Desiree. We are both mothers who run a support group for perinatal loss. Through our group, we have met many wonderful families and have had the honor of hearing about and sometimes meeting their beautiful babies.
00:00:13
Speaker
We notice that families feel relief when they can share openly and feel seen when they meet others who are telling similar stories. So we created this podcast as a space for families to share the stories of their babies.
00:00:23
Speaker
We want to honor and remember these children. We want to help you navigate your life after loss. And most importantly, we want each story to give you hope. So please join us as we share these stories of grief and love.
00:00:36
Speaker
Welcome to the Blindsided Podcast.
00:00:43
Speaker
Welcome to the Blindsided Podcast. We're your hosts, Nicole and Desiree. hi everybody. And I said Nicole's name first, but this is Desiree. ah Today we have with us Rob Ryder.
00:00:54
Speaker
ah He's Lila's dad. And Rob is the executive director and co-founder of the Sad Dads Club. um And we can put the link to Rob's organization in his bio and in the episode notes.
00:01:07
Speaker
um So Rob, tell us about yourself and welcome. Hello, hello. Thank you so much for having me on and giving me an opportunity to speak a little more about the Sad Dads Club. I love any opportunity to talk about the amazing community, wonderful organization. My name, once again, is Rob.
00:01:25
Speaker
I currently live in Falmouth, Maine with my wife and our rainbow baby, not so baby anymore, little son Dallas, who is five and a half years old. My wife and i our forever firstborn daughter Lila was stillborn at 38 weeks on December 13th of 2017, came completely out of nowhere.
00:01:46
Speaker
um Very much fitting the name of your podcast. It was a total... We were blindsided. It was a textbook pregnancy. Everything was tracking and looking wonderful. There were no bumps in the road whatsoever until at that 38-week checkup, there was no heartbeat.
00:02:05
Speaker
And we found out that she had unfortunately suffered a placental abruption. And we just ended up on a really unfortunate, awful side of a statistic. The doctor said there was nothing that we did or didn't do Just got really, really, really unlucky.
00:02:21
Speaker
Wow. How was your wife? Because I know with placental abruption, sometimes the, you know, the bleeding, um if it's not caught soon enough, you
Running a Support Group
00:02:30
Speaker
know, your wife could actually almost lose her life as well.
00:02:33
Speaker
She was fine. Miraculously so. And i admittedly, I'm not well versed on all of the medical intricacies, but it was crazy just based on the other stories that I've heard from other fathers and the stories of their families just through Sad Dads Club. My wife didn't experience any pain, any bleeding. We had just gone in that morning for what was a regularly scheduled checkup, getting The finishing touches on the nursery, car seat was installed. It was sort of right around the corner any day now.
00:03:03
Speaker
And just in that appointment, there was no heartbeat. Okay. Wow. So you both, you both went to the doctor's appointment that day? Correct. Yes. Okay. And then they told you there was no heartbeat and then sent you over to deliver. Did she have a natural childbirth or did she have to have a C-section?
00:03:20
Speaker
She opted for a C-section. She was given the choice, but that was what her preference was. Okay. And did you find it? I haven't asked anyone this, but it was running through my mind recently that when you make a decision or you need to have a C-section, you kind of don't have time to process.
00:03:37
Speaker
Whereas if you go into labor and you're sitting there, because the first labors can take like two days, three days, four days. Sometimes you have more time to sit and talk and process what's happening. Whereas if you're sent over and you have a C-section right away, you're very much living in, you know, moment by moment, not really having time to talk to each other. and You know what i mean?
00:03:56
Speaker
Interestingly, we did have actually a lot of time between we had had a morning appointment. I think it was the first one at our doctor's office. And we were then sent home, packed up bags, went to main med and were put into a waiting room where we sat for lunch.
00:04:14
Speaker
eight or nine hours before she was able to get in there to have the procedure done to have Lila delivered via C-section. So that was my first panic attack was in my entire life was in that room when we were just waiting.
00:04:30
Speaker
And it was a surreal experience of waiting there with my wife, not really knowing exactly when we were going to be called in to go through what was next. and realizing that she's sitting there and she looks just as pregnant as she had been looking the last few days, weeks. And I just couldn't believe it. It was such a surreal and painful and confusing thing to see her there pregnant, but knowing that Lila was not alive inside of her.
00:04:55
Speaker
And that really freaked me out. And it really, it scrambled my circuits. Like I was just so disoriented and went into like a very irregular breathing pattern. And that led to a panic attack and,
00:05:08
Speaker
I'd never had one before, but I think that all of that time of sitting in that room, everything just kind of crumbled and came down while still feeling completely surreal.
00:05:19
Speaker
And I can get into the moment where it like became real, but I think that as a defense mechanism emotionally and psychologically, had to see it to believe it.
00:05:30
Speaker
So there was still, maybe they're wrong. Maybe there's a shred of hope in there. But during that time where those hours that we spent in the waiting room, or not waiting room, we were in like a, we were checked into a room, but obviously there were things happening at the hospital where other people had to have the doctors' and surgeons' attention before we did, and left us with hours and hours to be together.
00:05:53
Speaker
i Not much talking really went on that I can remember at least. I mean, we may have talked the entire time, but it was just such a hazy and and unbelievably difficult and just strange and bizarre situation and and reality that we're still both literally processing.
00:06:16
Speaker
when you When you were having the panic attack, like did anyone notice or were you just kind of like in your own head? like Was anyone like, are you okay? like what's What's going on? Or and trying to support you through?
00:06:26
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, my wife like completely swooped in and knew what was going on, and she was the only other one. Nobody else came into the room during that time, and she i was just head in her lap, like crying uncontrollably, couldn't breathe, couldn't form words, couldn't control...
00:06:43
Speaker
the way I felt like I couldn't get ah hold. And she was just saying, you know, like big breath in or two breaths in one out, like just trying to get me to focus on that one thing, because everything that I was starting to feel and starting to come to life for me was overwhelming me completely.
00:07:00
Speaker
And I just spun out. ah I, I get it completely understandably. So given what we were going through and what we're, I think also thinking about when are we going to be called? one What's that going to look like in the delivery room? What's this going to be like? How much more traumatic is this going to get? That also started to become just stacking things up that felt like it was just going to crumble down on top of me until it did.
00:07:25
Speaker
He makes a good point. Like you, it's such an unknown childbirth is an unknown, but, but that is more of an unknown because yeah, you just really don't know what's going to happen. You've never been through any of that before, let alone your babies passed away.
00:07:38
Speaker
And you said something um that you remember thinking like, maybe they're wrong. And I hear that so often um from the moms. I've never really heard a dad say that. So that's like, it needs me to think that you also feel that way.
00:07:51
Speaker
Like maybe they could be wrong. Like I know that when we were in the doctor's appointment that morning, I had been in enough of them that I knew what the heartbeat sounded like and I knew that I didn't hear that. But then i think that if you hear it from a lot of other people and ah similarly the conversations I've had with other dads, they have experiences that kind of align with this one as well where they, their bodies, their minds, their hearts are holding on to this shred of hope that exists still until you know and you've seen with your own two eyes that
00:08:23
Speaker
your baby has in fact died. And I think that I just, even I knew that that wasn't the case, but there was part of me that couldn't let that go until I had seen it. And then in the delivery room and how quiet it was, that was where it all really was like, this is real. This is, yeah, she's gone.
00:08:45
Speaker
Can you go into that? Would you mind elaborating more about her birth or after her birth? Yeah, i I remember waiting. My wife was carted in to the room first, and I was waiting back into the room that would become our hospital room for the next few days.
00:09:01
Speaker
And there was a nurse who was sitting there with me and asking me some questions, and I could barely answer them because I was trying so hard to
00:09:12
Speaker
muster up any strength that I could possibly have and not expel any energy. And she was doing such a wonderful job of engaging me and sort of walking me through what was going to come next, where what we were waiting for, what we were going to see, where I was going to stand and sort of getting me prepared. So it wasn't a total shock, but I couldn't answer much beyond a one word answer because I was so focused on being like, this is going to be the most probably difficult part of this all up, up till now, this is what is about to come is going to potentially be horrific.
00:09:43
Speaker
And going back finally into the room, it just felt like ages that I had to wait from the time that Tahila, my wife and I were separated because she was brought back to get the procedure started. And they had a very certain specific time that they were planning to bring me in. So when I did finally get in there, it was,
00:10:02
Speaker
that was brutal. It was, it was so hard because she had once again, opted for a C-section and she had asked to, and the baby was no longer in danger. So she could have whatever drugs that could be safely administered. And effectively i experienced her out of it. Like she was somewhere else um mentally. And almost as though she forgot what was going on, which was hard for me to watch because I was like, oh my goodness, she's going to come back to all this and it's going to potentially spiral all over again for us. But the moment that they delivered her, it was just so quiet.
00:10:43
Speaker
It was indescribably quiet. It was, and everybody talks about that. who is ah who ah Who I've met, who has been in the delivery room during a stillbirth is just that eerie quiet. It's such a deep and deafening quiet, which I know makes no sense whatsoever in pairing those two words, but it really is just enormous how silent the room is and how somber everything is. And there's the beeping of some machines. there's i you know I went over, I was just like rubbing my wife's head and was saying that I loved her so much and we were going to meet our daughter soon. And
00:11:22
Speaker
the moment that they put Lila onto my wife's chest after I cut the umbilical cord. Once again, I felt as though I was experiencing my wife forget that Lila was dead and that she, cause she was just like, Oh, my baby, my baby, I love you so much. And i it was, that was really hard to watch too, because this was just like a dream that we had to be able to bring,
00:11:51
Speaker
our daughter home and expand our family. And something that we'd always talked about wanting to do, that was the dream for us, was to expand our family. Both of us always wanted to be parents and have children. And that was one of many things that we connected on. And so to just have the floor disappear from beneath us, all in such like a split second, you know, earlier that day, we were having some trite argument about Are we going, should we put the recycling bin out on the curb before we leave for the appointment or will we get back home in time? Are we going to miss a truck? Like everything was just so trivial before that and so simple. And so the things that we were worried about were so minuscule.
00:12:35
Speaker
And then, know, fast forward 12, 14 hours later and we're with our daughter who is born but not living. It a pretty extreme day.
00:12:51
Speaker
So i wanted to ask, ah you had her and they brought you back to your wife's room. Did you spend time with her? Did you keep her in the room with you for your entire stay?
00:13:04
Speaker
And did your family come and meet her? So to answer your question, we did spend time with her as much as we could until it was clear that she was... it was time to say goodbye. And that's something that happens if you are ah parent who is spending time with your child who has passed away. And there's so only so much that modern medicine and technology can do to preserve them in the very literal sense.
00:13:27
Speaker
And she was in a room for as much as we could keep her in there. My wife slept with her on her chest the first night. she, Then she moved to another room to be in.
00:13:42
Speaker
I don't think it was quite a cuddle cot, but something similar to it. Maybe it was exactly a cuddle cot. I but. That was like the precious memories room or precious moments. I always mix up what the name of this room in main med was, but that is essentially a room where the baby goes and can receive further preservation to keep her physically or keep them physically looking the way that you want to remember them. And I spent time with her in that room, but we spent as much time with her as we possibly could until once again, we just, it was clear that things were,
00:14:18
Speaker
Physically running their course and it was time to say goodbye and I have no recollection of leaving the hospital whatsoever. I don't remember her being wheeled off one of the.
00:14:29
Speaker
um other Sad Dads Club co-founders has a very distinct moment that he always recalls where he knows that his daughter was being wheeled off in a way. And I just, I don't remember that. I've tried through therapy, through different like mental exercises, ah psychological exercises to go to that place of, of seeing her leave, leaving my, Tahil and I leaving the hospital. I just, it's a big black spot. I don't have anything there.
00:14:59
Speaker
Wow. So did your family get to meet her? Oh, yes. Sorry. I know I missed one of the questions. There was only one other person that met her, and that is my sister-in-law, my wife's sister.
00:15:10
Speaker
And she's the only other person who met her. i My parents came up and were staying in Portland, but they did not meet her. And I i he also had my brother-in-law,
00:15:23
Speaker
who I went out and like, I remember seeing him. I remember seeing my wife's uncle who came up to and, but saw them away from the hospital. And I, I don't know. i think that we just, we didn't want in that moment. And I've never actually gone back and considered, do I wish that we had let more people meet her? It's a, it's a point it's, it's very complicated because with a stillbirth,
00:15:49
Speaker
your family, largely your family doesn't know that child. And even if they were to have met her while she was in the hospital, that's still such a limited window. There's no personality that they get to watch develop. There's no life that unfolds in front of them. It's such a finite and limited thing, which makes the loss really complicated. And i think a lot of other dads I talked to,
00:16:13
Speaker
uniquely difficult in that people, well, we talk about this with any bereaved child that people seem to move on more quickly, obviously, than the than the parents do, but long-winded way of saying, no, just just one other person met her. And I'm not sure if that was deliberate. I'm not sure if that was subconscious or what it was. It just was.
00:16:35
Speaker
Thank you. want to go back to what you said about like just forgetting certain things. I distinctly remember like being in a certain hospital room. I don't know why I remember it this way, but I'm totally wrong.
00:16:47
Speaker
My mom was like, you were not in that room. You were in this room. And I was like, no, I wasn't. And not until I got my medical records, I was like, she's right. Fuck. Like I just remembered everything wrong for some reason. I don't know why.
00:16:59
Speaker
Just the trauma and the mix of everything. Like I just... some details like I can't bring back to my mind either the same thing it's crazy it's so our minds are so complicated and yeah the last thing I was going to ask about Lila and ah her time here and saying goodbye to her is did you decide to cremate her bury her did you have a service for her or anything to memorialize her life Yeah, we had her cremated. We did not have a service.
00:17:28
Speaker
It just was too overwhelming for us. And I think back to that often, but I also, everything that I think back to, I never asked myself, did we do it the wrong way? Because I know that we just had to go with whatever we felt we could manage at that time. And that was that's all you can do. And it's so easy to, in any situation, look back and wish that you had done things differently. But the reality is you have a very finite window, especially in these situations situations and circumstances to make a decision and it's pretty final.
00:17:58
Speaker
It's very final. Um, so yeah, it never crossed our mind to have a, a memorial. I think we were just like, have her cremated. We have her ashes with us always. And yeah, then just making the rounds and telling,
00:18:14
Speaker
friend groups and stuff because everybody's always, always knows that you're expecting and they always know that you're any day now and asking how the pregnancy is going and then having to ah break the news to people. Cause I, I, my wife is not on social media and I myself got off.
00:18:29
Speaker
So there was never any announcement. There was never any sort of like wide for, for wide public consumption. um note shared regarding what happened to Lila. It was just me having to pick up the phone a whole bunch and let people know and then asking my parents to do a lot of that for me just to spare me. Right.
00:18:49
Speaker
So what led you to so just to create this group, this club? So 11 months before Lila was stillborn, my best friend from college, whose name is Jay, he and his wife had had a stillborn daughter. So that was in, that was January 31st of 2017. And so
Purpose of the Podcast
00:19:09
Speaker
I had a front row seat to see how absolutely heartbreaking, earth shattering, world crumbling it was for them to have lost their daughter.
00:19:19
Speaker
And I was there for him as best I could be and trying to be a supportive friend without knowing, obviously, the complexities or intricacies of of what he was going through, but seeing how much he and his wife and their family, seeing how much they're hurting.
00:19:33
Speaker
So as I always put it, I had the fortunate misfortune of having somebody that I could immediately go to who was local, who whom I'd known for years, and they could be an outlet for me. And he was able to let me vent and say whatever I wanted, or I didn't have to say anything at all. And it was all understood. There was no explanation needed, which was really comforting.
00:19:56
Speaker
A mutual friend of ours had let us know that someone else who we'd gone to school with, she was a few years younger than we were. She and her husband who were living in Portland had just had a stillborn daughter. This was seven months after we lost Lila. So within the span of 18 months, the three of us had stillborn daughters.
00:20:13
Speaker
We were connected with Chris. Three of us started spending a lot of time together and it once again realizing that just this dynamic and this unique connection that we had with one another was unbelievably healing and just relieving for us. It gave us a space that we could go and just be and talk about things that were bothering us, talk about things that were making us sad or confusing us or making us angry. Like,
00:20:39
Speaker
yeah It was a place where we could get away from everything else. We didn't have to paint it on for other people. And we could just have that microcosm that we ourselves created through this unfortunate tragedy that we all shared. And knowing what we did for one another.
00:20:58
Speaker
It naturally evolved to saying there are probably guys out there who have no one that they can go to. They are probably guys out there who are suffering, feeling so alienated. And can you imagine going through this stuff alone?
00:21:10
Speaker
And that was what prompted us to say we should start something with the Internet. We have a boundless reach. We can connect with dads literally all over the world. And we'll know pretty quickly whether or not there's an appetite for this, whether there is a community out there, whether there is rather a desire to be engaged with and start a community.
00:21:30
Speaker
though I think that we knew that there was going to be because there was nothing out there. There was nothing that we had seen or read about or found online that was any sort of community-based support for fathers who had lost children. And when Chris J and I went into it, we said, okay, we have to and can only speak to our personal experiences.
00:21:51
Speaker
which is having stillborn daughters. We would love to open the doors widely and make sure that whomever is a father and who is grieving and has lost a child of any age can come in and feel comfortable, but we can't presume to understand anybody else's story but our own.
00:22:07
Speaker
And I just think through that very honest and natural approach and creating a space that really was very inclusive, very nurturing, very warm, and also very, i say laid back, but I mean that just in that There is no expectation when you engage with Sad Dads Club that you have to share a story that you, if it's on Zoom, that you have to have your camera on. You can do whatever you want to do when you're there that meets your comfort level because it's not going to be a useful space if you don't feel comfortable in it. And so we want to make sure that we don't have any sort of – we have you know house rules and guidelines, but they're pretty damn simple to follow. It's just be respectful
00:22:47
Speaker
um know that what's talked about in this space is private and sacred and support one another and it's the most remarkable space to be in and see i've never been in a situation with you know up to 50 grown men and none of the alpha dog domineering nonsense is occurring whatsoever these are men who are just there opening their hearts to one another and being such steadfast sources of support for one another because They know what it felt like when they walked through the doors and how supported they felt. So now they want to pay that forward. And it just has turned into this huge cycle of these men who at one point were new and who are now the ones who are emerging as leaders and and bringing in the new guys and making sure that they feel welcome. And it just, everyone wants to do whatever they can to make sure that
00:23:40
Speaker
no dad out there thinks there's nothing available for them. Everybody is so eager to spread the word. Everybody is so eager to grow the community in a meaningful and organic way.
00:23:51
Speaker
Like, sure, would it be great if Oprah shared like a post of ours on Instagram? Yeah, but then like what would that do if all of a sudden instead of 50 guys showing up to a Zoom, 400 showed up? How would we be able to maintain?
00:24:05
Speaker
I know that I mean, it's great if she wants to share a post like because we want people to know that we exist, but we also just want to make sure that we're keeping it an intimate space, which however big it gets, we can maintain that. We just need to keep doing what we're doing and make sure that everybody who comes in really does feel that sense of community and that sense of support and magic and like the validation that comes from that space of people being able to express things that they can't talk about anywhere else because of whatever societal nonsense is put on men to grin and bear it or be tough or just like, you know,
00:24:43
Speaker
like ignore it. You can't ignore this. It's going to erode you from the inside. If you don't have some release, if you don't have some dedicated space where you can, in a healthy way, express yourself, but I'm getting way past your original question. Oh, you're, you're great. so I love when he talks, he could just go on and on.
00:25:00
Speaker
Yeah. I'm going to encourage you to write a book after this. You are kind. I'm kidding. I'm trying to, oh well, i'm I'm trying to start thanks to one of our community members has a,
00:25:12
Speaker
unbelievably kind ah mother who's also a professional writer. And she's like, you got to write about this stuff. So I will. This is me This is verbal commitment. I will. But starting is hard. But I just I love Sad Dad's Club. I love the work. I love the exhaustion that it brings to me. I love the emotional fatigue. I love because there's nothing more fulfilling these And it's not me. Like, I'm the only person who is who is full time right now.
00:25:41
Speaker
But a community is not a community without um people showing up as individuals to make a collective thing. And that's what this is. So Jay, k Chris and I, yeah, we had an idea.
00:25:53
Speaker
But if no one showed up, it wouldn't be anything. And only because people keep showing up. Is it what it is? And that's attributed to every single one of the dads who keeps coming over and over again. They are the ones who are helping it grow.
00:26:06
Speaker
They are the ones who give it the sterling reputation that it has for being a space that people can recommend to people they know because they know when they come here.
00:26:17
Speaker
that it's a consistent space, it's a reliable space, it's a supportive space, inclusive, a safe one. It is one that has such a good reputation because of all the guys who keep coming and they just open their hearts.
00:26:29
Speaker
They are so honest and real and they're just so kind. it is it's It's too bad that it takes something so tragic and jarring to realign your perspective and your priorities.
00:26:45
Speaker
But this is every single person that comes into our community has had their life changed and they are as a person have changed. And that can be really scary for a lot of people, especially if you don't have somewhere to go and talk about the changes that are happening that you yourself weren't ready for.
00:27:03
Speaker
And this is like also amidst like trauma and PTSD and and grief is, you know, shrouds this whole thing. But these guys are so willing to face that head on that they can then use this space as one where they feel safe expressing themselves and they feel like they can get something out of hearing other people's stories. And then they get to go back to all the other places in their lives where people need them. like their significant other, their living children, if they have any, their job, and they can return focused and they can be more balanced because they're able to just like have the space where they can they can unload if they need to.
00:27:48
Speaker
And for some guys, they don't want to talk. They just want to listen. But that's equally as important to have an audience of people who do want to listen to the ones who have to talk. And it's just as valuable to be able to hear other people saying things that resonate with you And make you come out of that thinking like, I'm not crazy, if that was a thought that someone was having because they feel like they're the only person going through these things.
00:28:11
Speaker
I'm not broken. i'm not There's nothing wrong with me. This is all very natural for someone who has gone through rather is going through everything I am because it doesn't end. This is you turn into a different new version of yourself for and grief is forever. You're not going to get rid of it. The edges will soften.
00:28:32
Speaker
i think that I found over time, if you really do lean into like acknowledging it, um, but it's never going to go away. I'm never not going to be completely heartbroken that my daughter's not here. I'm never not going to be reminded and looking at my son that,
00:28:49
Speaker
his older sister, like that's, and having a rainbow baby is the most miraculous thing in the world, but um it's a trip because he is the closest person to her in the world because he is a combination of his mother and me the same way that Lila is. And so that again, no scientist, no medical professional here, but on paper that to me suggests that because they are a combination of these two people, that they are the closest people in the world to one another.
00:29:19
Speaker
i've I've never heard someone say that, but it makes so much sense. Doesn't it? Yeah. I've never heard that said. um but ah Nicole, do you remember how we found out about Sad Dad's Club at the um Lucas James event?
00:29:33
Speaker
Yes. Yes. I have to tell Rob because I said, oh, we have to tell you how we found out about you. Yeah. Yeah, we and we went to a fundraising event and there was a mom there who came in and I could just tell she was upset and she was just crying. i was like, Desiree, we have to go talk to her.
00:29:48
Speaker
um And this fundraiser was for... um um i mean, it was for Lucas James, but they did it for Adeline Rose Foundation. Adeline Rose, yeah. was I was going to Lila Rose, which is wrong.
00:30:00
Speaker
So yeah, so it was for Adeline Rose Foundation. and she was with her husband and he was crying too. And they were just both in the corner. So was like, we have to go talk to them. So he went over and talked to them. and And then two other guys who like had sad dad club information, like came over and grabbed the dad. And then we got to talk to the mom. It was really cool.
00:30:20
Speaker
just to see them kind of swoop in and take care of this dad who really needed to support. And honestly, you don't see that. Like you said, like, it's so, it's so rare. I've never seen that before. These men just come and they have the sad dad stickers was like a sticker or something they had and they're giving it to these dads.
00:30:35
Speaker
Yeah, it was awesome. Oh my gosh. Where was this? um In Pennsylvania, um outside of Philadelphia, yeah one of the families had a fundraiser. Oh, and don't ask me who.
00:30:47
Speaker
We did an episode, though we didn't interview them, because we did do an episode at the fundraiser. um It's on our podcast episodes, and it says Lucas James fundraiser, and we interviewed families at the event.
00:31:00
Speaker
Okay. I don't think we interviewed the the family the couple that was crying, but we had them on our podcast a couple episodes later. They did come on our podcast. So we're going again this year. So we'll get you some names this year. Yes. As long as I'm so, I'm not surprised at all to hear that.
00:31:16
Speaker
guys would have done that just like seeing someone be like, i have just the thing for you. And I know, I always say, you know, I know how you feel caveat. Like you never know exactly how somebody feels. Everybody's journey is uniquely their own in the way that our our our minds and hearts respond to these situations. It's never going to be exactly the same, but there is enough of an overlap that that like connection and those guys coming in to help that dad who they saw was in distress could be enough for him to be like, oh my gosh, I thought I was the only person in the world who got this.
00:31:48
Speaker
even Even when you know it happens to other people, you just don't feel like you have a connection to them necessarily. As I said, I was so... the the fortunate misfortune of having such a close friend of mine, a best friend of mine who had gone through it 11 months earlier. He was almost one year through his grief journey and crazy, crazy, crazy. Yeah, that's crazy coincidence.
00:32:16
Speaker
Yeah. So with 50 dads on a support group, do you guys talk about a different topic each time? Like how how does it run? If I was a dad thinking about going, what' what's it what's it like?
00:32:28
Speaker
So good question. We meet every Thursday on Zoom at 8.30 Eastern. We're looking to expand the number or expand time zones. We have some friends overseas. We got got a lot of guys on the West Coast. And so this is the one time that right now we can reliably offer, but it alternates every other week. So...
00:32:49
Speaker
This week is what is called Sad Dad's Open Hour, and we will usually pick a topic that is like, let's talk about careers after loss or intimacy after loss or navigating the holidays, stuff like that, pregnancy after loss.
00:33:05
Speaker
We'll pick a topic, but we also always say in those meetings when we start, we introduce the topic before going into introductions, and introductions are always – um the they're not mandatory. You don't have to participate in them. But we say before going into introductions, look, this is the topic.
00:33:24
Speaker
This space is for all of us. So if you have something that's been on your mind and there's only once a week that we're meeting in this Zoom space and you want to talk about it, bring it up and we can pivot. like This is meant for everyone.
00:33:36
Speaker
So if you have something that's just been weighing on you and you really have to get it out and you want some to have a conversation around it, we can be nimble. We are not ever saying like, we're just going to talk about this topic. but So it usually kind of weaves a little bit, but I'd say for the most part, it it pretty much stays on the the topic we pick because they're always pretty broad and they can they're just pertinent for everyone. um But next week, so that's Sad Dad's Open Hour.
00:34:03
Speaker
Next week on Thursday, we'll have what's called My Child, My Story. That is where a father can opt in to share their story in long form uninterrupted. So that came about, we used to meet on zoom once a month, then it was twice a month, and then it was every week.
00:34:22
Speaker
The more the debt, the more the numbers were increasing for each session, some dads, we use the hand raise feature if you want to speak and, some dads were getting into these really incredibly intimate and specific details of their story and and starting to really dive into these things that they clearly had not talked about with anyone. And then they would pause for a second and take a look at the screen and see that there were all these guys with their hands raised and they would retract and say, Oh shit, I'm so sorry. that I'm talking too much.
00:34:51
Speaker
Let me pass it on. So we're like, what do we, what do we do to make sure that that, that there is a space where they can go. They don't have to worry about the clock or hands raised or how much time they're taking up and they can just share everything.
00:35:05
Speaker
And Chris came up with the idea to do something that was just allowing a dad to opt in and tell their whole story. So we said, okay, we'll put the call out for it. We'll see if people are interested. And when we had introduced that, which I can't remember exactly when we started doing that, but when we did,
00:35:20
Speaker
introduce it, then we um had it booked out for over a calendar year. So there were ah lot of dads who were very interested. If I could do quick mental math, 52 or 54 weeks in a year, I'm revealing that I know so little about so much in a single episode, but they, tons, tons of interest. And it's still, um we we record the sessions and And then we put them on a shared drive so that any dad who can't make it, but who really wants to hear the story with the presenter's permission, um as long as the presenter says, yeah, this is cool to record it, then we have a Discord channel. um
00:36:01
Speaker
i I don't say this in a way to be pointing out the obvious. I had no idea what Discord was before so one of our l LA dads, Augie's dad, suggested, hey, there was just a desire for the dads to stay in touch somehow and to be able to access one another twenty four seven
Guest Appearance: Rob Ryder
00:36:18
Speaker
So Augie's dad, Albert, out in l LA was like, let's set up a Discord channel. i was like, that sounds awesome. What is Discord? And it's a glorified group chat. And now we have hundreds of dads on there. And wow if I had notifications on right would just be dinging, dinging, dinging, dinging. It's always active.
00:36:34
Speaker
It's like a group chat. Yes. Okay. But we have, well, I should say we have, ah back to the dad who who set it up, he is very thoughtfully organized our private channel. So we have two different sections. One is related to loss. So similar to what I mentioned earlier about the topics for Sad Dad's Open Hour, there's a channel or sub thread for intimacy after loss, fertility, pregnancy after loss, milestones, remembrances,
00:37:04
Speaker
relationships after loss and then there's a section that's just life and social it's things that people are into like sports movies music reading recommendations there's a group that plays dungeons and dragons once a month there are a few fantasy football teams that emerged the last few years there are these guys who are sharing exercising tips and stuff um things that these dads enjoyed in their life before loss. And for a lot of them, it was very hard to get back. I'll speak for myself. Music is a huge passion of mine. It's always where I've, that's been my outlet. And I couldn't touch an instrument after losing Lila. I couldn't even listen to music and experience it the same way that it once been like, if I'm going to be walking around outside, I need music. Like that's what just,
00:37:55
Speaker
I could go miles and miles with it. And I just, I didn't hear it the same. i couldn't pick up a guitar, sit down to drums and feel like it mattered or feel like I didn't feel connected to it. And that was kind of symbolic of everything in the immediate aftermath, even having.
00:38:12
Speaker
my best friend Jay, I just felt so disconnected. I felt because that part of me was just unplugged for a bit and then, and just completely crumbled. So I think that those channels in our discord or those sub thread conversations are really great when it comes to showing dads that you can find joy in these things. Again, it might take a little time, but it's also okay if you do. And it's a good thing.
00:38:36
Speaker
A lot of the things we talk about are one of the main complexities is that, Feeling happy again, feeling light in your life again, because you so closely affiliate the memory of your child who passed away with pain, because that's the most visceral, the most recent feeling that you had associated. So you yourself kind of want to live in that so that you can feel closer to them.
00:39:00
Speaker
and it feels not okay to smile again or to move past and and laugh again because it feels like you're forgetting about them. But I think what actually ends up happening is you can move on. It's a very, not move on, I'm saying, you can move through and start to now associate like beautiful things in the world with your child and and different other feelings of love, feelings outside of those that are just painful, sadness and sorrow.
00:39:28
Speaker
And as you speak, I think to our families and, you know, the moms are more of the ones to come to. it We do our in-person support group. um We do have a few dads. um But the moms will be there regularly for the most part. And everything you're saying, how how you feel or how your dad's, you know, the things they bring up, it's exactly the same as what I feel like the moms bring up, which is so funny because I guess guys want to want to be seen as like the strong.
00:39:52
Speaker
I'm here. I'm here. You know, the strong and like to share like their vulnerabilities. Is it easier? Do you think like with another group of guys? Does that make sense? I think so. We, yeah, I, I think there is something unique about men coming to a space with just men where they feel, especially when it comes to conversations do not infrequently go to things like intimacy after loss, which is so heavy and complicated for, for I imagine also the women, but I know for the men and,
00:40:28
Speaker
Something about that's that's one example of one conversation that is yeah we just couldn't have it if it were if there were moms who were in the room. But there is just something that
00:40:44
Speaker
I see the value and I see a lot of healing happen when I've been in spaces with couples who are going through it together. And I think that can really help and aid with communication. But you feel so able to open up completely when you're just in a room with other men. And I'm speaking for myself and from what I've seen happen with these men. And I don't know the way that they are back home. I don't know them in any other setting or context, but I do know I see this unbelievable willingness to just be entirely open with no inhibition, with no second guessing of if I cry, is that going to be weird? Or
00:41:25
Speaker
like And again, I think that's largely due to the space that all these guys have helped create because they've made sure that it is one that is so warm and supportive. And we also laugh and we joke around and we tell crude jokes and we say dumb ass things because we're still guys. But it's the full spectrum of human emotion and experience that we have. It isn't just that like crude jokes, stupid things that we say, sports talk.
00:41:59
Speaker
There is that, and that's a very important component, but I think that it just in that way creates the most real environment and the most comfortable environment that a bereaved father could step into because they still want to we still want to laugh. We still want to do these things, but we kind of also don't feel like necessarily we have permission. And i I keep saying we, as though I'm speaking on behalf of everybody. I'm not, I'm just saying what I've seen in the spaces that I've shared with these other men. i know that there is a guard that comes down because
00:42:31
Speaker
It's not in a professional setting. It's not in your family setting. You kind of need this. You need a dedicated space to really be all of yourself and to really –
00:42:43
Speaker
Something about a connection also pulls someone into a space where they suddenly are... It's like they're given permission to be open. They're given permission to be vulnerable. They're given permission... Because they're seeing other guys do it.
00:42:57
Speaker
And so they say, oh, he did it? Then that's okay. Then that's all right. Then this is actually... Maybe it'll help me even. So I think we create a space that like asks people to participate. And in that way, maybe they otherwise wouldn't. Because they'd be like, oh, I just...
00:43:13
Speaker
no one's asking about my child. No one's asking about how I'm doing. So I should just like head down and move on. But we're sort of like a stop sign of like, before you keep going, do you want to talk about it? do you want to, and, and people also know that this is a space where we want to hear about your child. We want to know their name. We want to hear everything that you want to tell us about them.
00:43:34
Speaker
There's no other place in their lives. I think that they can necessarily get that in the, dynamic between a bereaved mother and father and speaking personally for myself, like we don't always want to talk about it.
00:43:48
Speaker
we Maybe if we had like a carved out time of day during each week, because that's what Sad Dads Club is. People know what they're getting into when they go into it, so they can really come in as ready as they possibly can be. they They know what they're stepping into, and if they don't feel like stepping into it that day, they don't have to because it'll be there next week. It'll be there on Discord if they want to just do it that way.
00:44:12
Speaker
We're trying to make sure that we recognize that this space, that's also why it is so effective because it's... You can engage with it so many different ways for so many different personality types. As I said, some people want to share, some people want to listen, some people want to do both.
00:44:28
Speaker
Some people want to just be on Discord. Some people want to... message through our website and correspond that way. Some people want to come to retreats, some people want to go to the regional events or any combination of those things. And if you miss one thing, it's not like that's it, or it's not like, hey, this is the one thing we do. We're trying to constantly find ways that we can be a source of support, that we can bring this community to people, however will be most helpful and fit them.
00:44:55
Speaker
I love that you can log on. You said you could log on to your group and then you don't have to turn your camera on. You don't have to speak. And I think that's really important, especially for your very first meeting, probably for anyone, but but more so for our dads, because they might feel like, let me just see what this is about before I. And then, like you said, they see what's what people are saying and and, you know, sharing their stories. And then they say, oh,
00:45:17
Speaker
You know, it is it is all right. It'll probably help me, too. So I just can't wait for this episode to come out because I feel like so many people that we personally know will find your group so valuable. so I'm really excited.
00:45:30
Speaker
Well, me, too. And that's what we're hoping for. And I the people, the dads I see who come in camera off. Then ah suddenly I see the camera go on. Then suddenly I see the hand go up or we see that.
00:45:43
Speaker
It's like – and the a lot of the guys say i had no intention of speaking but I felt compelled to. Not that I felt like I had to. Like there was this pressure where it' oh, God, everyone spoke but me because that would never be the case. There's so many people who just listen.
00:45:56
Speaker
But they they felt like they had permission to. They felt like they were invited to – probably did some internal pep talk and said, this is going to pros and cons. The pros are going outweigh the cons for for me in this moment. I'm not saying that people have to speak though. I I'm a chatterbox, so I can't imagine not speaking, but I've also had to learn the art of, ah of, of listening, which is great. Cause I learned something new every single day that I engage with sad dad's club. It doesn't matter if you're,
00:46:29
Speaker
one week removed from your loss or 20 years, somebody will say something in a way that will make me entirely rethink the way I've been approaching a dynamic or a situation or ah memory.
00:46:44
Speaker
And so everybody has something of value to add in the space. And it it doesn't, your worth is not measured by how often you come. Your worth is not measured how far removed from your loss you are.
00:46:56
Speaker
everybody has wisdom to offer and everybody is eager to hear and learn from everyone, which i think is another, it's just everybody's equal. I went to a ah Quaker school growing up, which those ethos of everyone being equal is pretty much the foundation of the religion. And I very, very closely, I'm not a religious person, um,
00:47:18
Speaker
But I do very closely hold on to the Quaker values because it's just so easy. It's we're all equal. They say there's that of God in everyone. And I ah couldn't even begin to get into a religious discussion about what I believe and don't because...
00:47:36
Speaker
I never met them if they are out there in real, but also like could be. And I just, there's so much I don't know as I've revealed on here that I won't even get into the complexities of that, but I just the Quaker values in that religion and and it's so community based. So I feel like we really do uphold a lot of that um standard just for ourselves and one another, which is, it's easy as long as you come into a space and you know that everybody deserves respect and,
00:48:07
Speaker
Everybody's there um for the same reason and for something so complicated and raw and painful and tragic, but they still make that effort to be there for themselves and for everyone else there, which is incredible. I am in constant awe. These are the most some of the most remarkable men I've ever met in my life.
00:48:32
Speaker
They're I'm not a lost parent. I'll just qualify what I, everything I say, i qualify it by I'm not a lost parent, but I just noticed, or I hear a lot of families say that the, the people that were friends before they lost their baby and the way they were it completely different now to the people that they surround themselves with. And I forget why I was saying that you just said something and I forgot.
00:48:52
Speaker
Well, was just saying all these guys are so remarkable and you're probably saying like other lost parents have said, like you're, you're a new version of yourself, I think. And, and, Some friends who you've had your entire life are going to be wonderful about being there for you. They're going to know when to check on you. They're going to remember the important dates. And it's not as easy for other friends. And i we talk about it a lot. A lot of friends that adult men have had historically have been friends who have pretty much gone through life with you doing fun stuff and doing celebratory things.
00:49:28
Speaker
Um, but this group of guys, I mean, you, you don't start here when you meet them, you start like up here, you are just at an elevated level of connection when you meet another lost parent, because you can just like take the mask off and be like, Oh, she's okay.
00:49:44
Speaker
Good. You get it. So I don't even have to tell you, but and anything you do want to tell them, they, they validate it. And i i had some of both for sure. I had some friends who I've known and longer than I haven't, who are Absolutely remarkable. And, you know, they were up here as soon as they heard the news. And then had other friends who weren't.
00:50:06
Speaker
And i don't, I'm a little over seven years removed from my loss. And ah some family and friends just can't go certain places with you. And I no longer...
00:50:20
Speaker
I no longer only resent that. I used to only resent that. And there is still a little part of me where it's like, ah why can't you just be a little bit better about these few things? But a bigger part of me is now like, if I keep expecting that from them and they've shown me that they just can't go there, then I am just perpetuating this frustration in myself. Why would I keep doing that? And it's more of like a cut and dry of like, oh, I just can't expect that from them. They can't go there.
00:50:48
Speaker
It's not... whether I think that's right or wrong is, is it doesn't matter because that's just the reality. And and it's sad in some cases, but the sooner I just let go of that and let go of lining myself up to be disappointed in knowing that this person, this loved one can't be there in a certain way, then sooner I'm going to have more energy for other things that could, uh, that are more productive and fulfilling for, for me and my family.
00:51:19
Speaker
Very true.
00:51:21
Speaker
Better people. Yeah. So is there something that you would tell us that we didn't ask you or wanted to tell us about that we haven't asked you? I spent a lot of time just like um fawning on all the individual men in sad dads clubs. That's kind of pretty much it. That's my, like, i if I can spend time just elaborating on and and reiterating how
00:51:50
Speaker
They're stunning. They are just such wonderful people. and every i I hope that anybody who hears this and who knows someone that's a lost dad or is a lost dad themselves listening would just give it a chance because there is also no pressure. Like we always say, our door is wide open. That means you can walk in. It also means you can walk out. If it feels like too much at any time, we have dads who who we don't see for a few months and that's fine. And then we're stoked to see them when they come back, but it's never like, Hey man, where you been? Like, didn't want to return my tax. Like it's never like that. It's like, Oh, so good to see you again.
00:52:34
Speaker
Life is crazy. Grief is crazier. Life and grief together is just like a whirlwind of unpredictable, um emotions and feelings and it's really hard to maintain and to manage on top of all the other pressures of life that you have and expectations so if somebody has to walk out the door we try and keep saying this as as we have new dads at our meetings constantly it's like if you ever feel the need that this is too much or it's overwhelming or you'd rather spend the night like watching tv on the couch like do that
00:53:07
Speaker
Take a few weeks off if you have to. We will always be here. You are not going to miss anything. It's only a helpful space if you feel up to engaging, however that is. If you feel up to listening to some dads go through some pretty rough stories so that you yourself can feel connected to them and you yourself can feel like, oh, I've experienced that too, so I'm not alone in that line of thinking or that way that I – engage with this family member now. um Or if you just want to come and talk, great. But also just dads can always head out and they're never they're never going to not be able to find us again. And I think that that's important because grief is, as I said, really complicated and it's lifelong and
00:53:53
Speaker
It's not linear. You're not like, oh, getting better and better and better and better. You might be, but then you're going to be like, shit. And then you take a nosedive and you fall into And there's nothing wrong with that.
00:54:05
Speaker
That's just part of what sucks about grief because it is... it's not linear grief and healing are not linear. It's not just like better, better, better. And then you keep on that trajectory and it's frustrating to hit that dip after you feel like you've made so much progress and nobody wants to feel crappy, but that's why we're there. If they do feel crappy and they feel like being, feeling crappy with us, but that's the other thing. It's like,
00:54:34
Speaker
one of the, we actually have a fundraising campaign going on this week. And so I asked some of the dads to just like record a note on their phone, like a voice memo and don't write anything down. Just riff on like, what is sad dad's club for you? What does it do for you? What, what would you tell someone about it? And one of the dads said something super profound where he's like, ironically, sad dad's club is the one place where I'm not a sad dad. It's the one place I get to be,
00:55:02
Speaker
prideful of my child and I get to be happy and I get to celebrate and talk about them. and I, and out there in the world, I don't get that. Nobody wants to hear me talk about, you know, that this individual, like, you know, this, my daughter who was in the NICU for five weeks and and never made it home, but like it's sad dad's club. I get to talk about her. Like I'm a normal dad. I get to tell,
00:55:28
Speaker
everything about her, like the good, the painful, everything. And it just had me thinking like, wow, this is, it's really a world out there where you, it's like you have a child, but no one wants to talk about that child.
00:55:46
Speaker
And then all you have are photographs of that child. But then this is a place where you actually can go and talk about them and no one's curling their toes. No one's like,
00:55:58
Speaker
looking, hoping that you're going to finish, uh, talking about them quickly, like, okay, move through this. Like, it's not like, I'm just imagining people like in a water cooler at work and being like, oh, can tell you a little bit about my dead baby daughter? And they're like, oh Jesus. Like, i don't he needs therapy. Yeah. And so it's like, now we have a space for that. And now so many, like our, I've had friends ask me since doing this full time, they're like, aren't you like sad all the time? Because, know,
00:56:29
Speaker
of all the stuff you hear and what you deal with. And I'm like, no, this is the most uplifting work in the world. This is the most, this is bringing joy back into people's lives. This is helping them through some of their darkest days. And I'm not like, this is what people have said in response to what sad dad's club is. This is kept people above water. This has helped them show up again in every other part of their life where they they have to show up.
00:56:58
Speaker
And it's, yes, it does get emotionally draining and there are some I hear terrible stories all the time and heartbreaking stories. I shouldn't say terrible.
00:57:11
Speaker
I hear heartbreaking stories all the time, but there's also so much beauty in them. And to see somebody who is physically changed the more that they are coming, like I see their face, I see their body language on zoom. I meet them in person. Like there is just light and joy and buoyancy brought back to, to their life.
00:57:30
Speaker
And that is the most,
00:57:35
Speaker
joyous thing that I could experience. So no, I'm not sad all of the time, quite the opposite. I'm right i'm i'm inspired all the time.
00:57:47
Speaker
People say that with the photography because I do now. I lay me down to sleep since they started. And every time when I go in, sometimes I have to go to the front desk and tell the the woman at the front desk why I'm there. And then she andtta inevitably says to me, oh, my gosh, that's so sad. How do you do that?
00:58:03
Speaker
How do you not cry? It is sad. Sometimes I cry, but I think it's I i say I love doing it. And it's weird to say that you love doing doing that kind of work. But I love doing it because I'm somebody that can go in and give these families this forever memory that they wouldn't have otherwise if I wasn't the one to go in there.
00:58:23
Speaker
i get to meet their their baby. I'm one of the few people that probably get to meet their baby. Like if I was in the room with your family and you said only your sister or her sister was there with you guys, I feel so honored that I am one of the few people that get to meet this baby that is so precious. And just, I know that the gift that I'm giving and when I leave, I know I'm leaving them better than when I went in that room.
00:58:45
Speaker
And that's that's what I feel with your support group and everything that you're saying, because people come in and you just know that just them being there, they're going to leave better than they were had they not popped her head in for five minutes or spent that hour or two hours there.
00:58:59
Speaker
um And that's why, yeah, it's sad, but it's also pretty amazing because if they didn't have you guys, you know, if you guys didn't make up this, you know, do the sad dad's club, the world wouldn't be as bright.
00:59:10
Speaker
This dad that we met the one day wouldn't have had these other dads rally around him, but it was because of the sad dad's club. So, well, what you do is is certainly, and you provide an invaluable gift. I love now I lay me down to sleep. I think it's just such an,
00:59:25
Speaker
incredible organization that again invaluable gift truly yeah thank you i love doing it that's that's amazing well rob that was amazing thank you so much thank you both thank you thanks for telling us all about lila yeah thank you so much it was a pleasure to speak to you if oh you have dallas's you have dallas's name there but do you have lila's name somewhere oh there she is i'll yeah I was going to ask you that because I saw this. That's cute. this ah i got this one for This is actually the newest one I got. I got this in September, but I'd had this for a while. And usually my shirt neck holes are a little bigger, so you can usually always see it. But now also my beard has grown so much that it covers it. but
01:00:12
Speaker
uh yeah i just want like i have to do something for her physically and i just also feel like at this point in my life people can't know me without knowing her and i took that line from avi's dad mike one of uh really he's become ah an extremely close friend of mine he's also here in maine and he started he joined sad dad's club
01:00:38
Speaker
Like a year and a half ago, i think. And we've just become super close. And he said, yeah at this point in my life, like, if you don't know Avi, you don't know me. Or you can't know me without knowing my son.
01:00:50
Speaker
I was like, yeah, dude, I love that. That's so true. He said some powerful stuff tonight. tonight Really. I'm probably just taking things I heard from others said. Yeah.
01:01:01
Speaker
But they are, again, doesn't matter if you're decades removed or days removed, like you're going to have something that you say that you're going to have an approach or a perspective on something that's going to help someone else. And that's, that's a beautiful, this community is, is surreal. And it's, I'm just, as I said, I'm in awe of these guys. They're, they're the best.
01:01:26
Speaker
He loves doing it too. I can tell. Love it. You love your job. i do I do. I love it so much. I just need to get better about like the fundraising thing. But we've only just started that despite the fact that I worked in development at two different nonprofits, much bigger.
01:01:44
Speaker
um So different landscape, but We'll get where we need to go. The mission is too important. And we're just starting again. This is like our first like focused fundraising push. we've We've gotten people who have donated just from like press that we've gotten and we have a donation page on our website, but Rob, thank you so much for joining us today and telling us about Lila.
01:02:05
Speaker
If you would like more information on the Sad Dads Club, their website is www.saddadsclub.org or on Instagram, sad.dads.club.
01:02:17
Speaker
Be sure to check them out and um we'll see you next episode. Thank you so much for tuning into the latest episode of the Blindsided podcast. We truly appreciate your support and time you spent with us.
01:02:30
Speaker
If you have a personal story you'd like to share on the show, don't hesitate to reach out to us. You can send us an email at Nicole at theblindsided.com or Desiree at theblindsided.com.
01:02:41
Speaker
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01:02:55
Speaker
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01:03:08
Speaker
Once again, thank you for listening and being a part of the Blindsided community.