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PUSH for Empowered Pregnancy-Owen's Legacy
60 Plays1 year ago
After Ana tragically lost her son Owen to stillbirth on October 3, 2015, she redirected her focus towards advocacy, prevention, education, and raising awareness. Active under the moniker “Still My Son” on social media platforms, she draws strength and encouragement from the loss community as she tirelessly strives for change in honor of all infants who left too soon.
While nothing could replace the longing for her son in her arms, Ana channels her maternal love into activism and serves as Co-Director of Medical Innovation & Advancement for PUSH for Empowered Pregnancy, a stillbirth prevention non-profit she co-founded with other grieving families in 2021. As a member of the Count the Kicks Influencer Advisory Board, she spearheads initiatives aimed at engaging Latinx/Spanish-speaking communities, ensuring that every parent receives essential fetal movement education to safeguard their babies. Ana also advocates for the adoption of placental measurement, known as EPV, as a standard prenatal care practice to mitigate the risk of stillbirth in babies with undersized placentas. Furthermore, she promotes “Womb Wisdom” through her educational initiative, Sacred Birth Circle, where she conducts interviews with maternal health experts and birthing parents, equipping families with knowledge for their pregnancy and childbirth journeys.
Ana’s Instagram @stillmyson
Also, you can follow her work @sacredbirthcircle
and @stillcountsorg
Get info about Count The Kicks, plus their free app, for fetal movement & kick counting
Rainbow Clinic & Pregnancy After Loss Provider training at Push Pregnancy (Contact us for a free training code courtesy of Ana, until 3/1/24!!).
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Purpose of Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi, I'm Nicole and I'm Desiree. We are both mothers who run a support group for perinatal loss. Through our group, we have met many wonderful families and have had the honor of hearing about and sometimes meeting their beautiful babies. We noticed that families feel relief when they can share openly and feel seen when they meet others who are telling similar stories. So we created this podcast as a space for families to share the stories of their babies.
00:00:23
Speaker
We want to honor and remember these children. We want to help you navigate your life after loss. And most importantly, we want each story to give you hope. So please join us as we share these stories of grief and love. Welcome to The Blindsided Podcast. Welcome to The Blindsided Podcast. We're your hosts, Desiree and Nicole. Hey, everybody.
Anna Lappé-Vic's Story and Initiatives
00:00:47
Speaker
Today we're here with Anna Lappé-Vic. Anna is a mom and an advocate for babies everywhere. She's the founder of Push for Empowered Pregnancy, and also volunteers with Count the Kicks, Measure the Placenta, and The Shine for Autumn Act. She's going to share the story of her son Owen with us today. Anna, thank you so much for being here with us. Oh, thank you guys for having me. I love your podcast. Excited to be here. Oh, thanks. Thank you. I want to preface it by saying that I'm not the only founder, so
00:01:17
Speaker
Push for Empowered Pregnancy, which is my other baby, is surrounded by a bunch of us, grief parents, who we got together about almost two and a half years ago. And at the time, you know, there's other charities, but we just felt like we weren't able to be as vocal and impactful as we wanted to be. So we got together and started that. And we've been going hard ever since. Pretty much full time, all volunteers, but it's a labor of love. And we all are just so excited that we start to see change every day that
00:01:46
Speaker
You know, it means a lot as a lost mom. I know many of you would understand that, um, just to feel like your baby has a legacy and you know, you can still speak their name every day, which is, you know, at a certain point in grief, you feel like you can't, or nobody's really bringing them up anymore. So this is my way to mother Owen after last eight years now for me. So it's been a little while. Thank you. Anna, can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself?
00:02:14
Speaker
So I am a Latina. I'm from California originally. My family is actually in the Bay Area but I went to UCLA and that's where I met my husband who is my rock. His name is Joshua and he's a southern boy. I actually wanted to marry a southern man so I don't know how I found him in LA but I did. He's awesome. He takes care of the kids while I'm doing things like this but he's a very devoted father to our three children and we
00:02:43
Speaker
had one daughter already before lost Naomi and she's 12 now and then we had a miscarriage we had our son Owen perfect pregnancy and all that which I'm sure we'll get more into and then another miscarriage and then we finally had our rainbow baby Jackson who's now six so he is really an awesome little kid I mean we wanted to have more children but this is where we're stopping because of our
00:03:10
Speaker
unfortunately, you know, loss after loss, it just kind of wears you down. And I'm now 40. So I think I'm good for having more children. But and I used to work in television, which my husband also did. So that's kind of where we met in that realm of Hollywood. I was a producer for E Entertainment Channel, and he was working for extra at the time. So we went to a lot of events, parties, and all these celebrities had a good time. And then
00:03:38
Speaker
You know after child loss like kind of changes your perspective on everything and like I really didn't want to spend as much time away from home. You know obviously we already had a daughter too so I kind of I very much stopped everything of course but I ended up back into catering sales with the golf club and that's kind of what I was interested at the time I like planning events and weddings and everything and you know when we lost Owen I was just like I can't go back there it would be just too hard to see the same people and
00:04:07
Speaker
you know, be involved with their lives after, you know, they thought I was going to come back and tell them about my baby, you know.
Personal Journey: Anna's Pregnancy and Loss
00:04:13
Speaker
So I didn't go back to work, but we did move to the Bay Area after that, just two years to be with my family. And then we realized we wanted to try North Carolina where he's from, which is where we're now. So it's very different. I feel like out of fish, out of water or something, I just feel really out of place.
00:04:32
Speaker
I don't have my family support here, which is hard too, but I'm closer to DC, which is great for the charity because we go there a lot for the bills and everything. So it's been nice. I can just travel to New York where most of the women live and get involved in that stuff. So we're just doing what we can, raising the kids. And my third child, Owen, is the one that takes up
00:04:57
Speaker
most of my time sometimes where it's like, I play with the kids. I'm like, Oh, that I'll be right there. But like, you know, it's hard. I try to balance it. And like, some days I don't do anything because I know I did too much yesterday, you know, but yeah. Really quick, you mentioned that Naomi's 12 and Jackson six. How old was Naomi when you had Owen? She was around three and a half. Okay, just trying to get like a
00:05:22
Speaker
I know we had the miscarriage after two. So we were doing the thing that normal people do, I think, where you're like, let's like, wait a year or two, then we'll try for the next. And you always think it's gonna be so easy, it's gonna go to plan, you know, and then, I mean, the miscarriage, it was like, well, really crushing. And I don't think enough people talk about miscarriage, but you're just like, gosh, now that you know, lost that baby, and now had to wait another six months, maybe to try. And so it just makes your gap bigger again. So then I'm like, okay,
00:05:52
Speaker
try again. And then, you know, pregnancy with Owen was actually great. It wasn't very, you know, nothing going on. But at the end, I did feel like a little bit of faintness. And I told my doctor and he's just he's just have low iron, just take more iron. But I never felt like he really took that seriously. Yeah, the time I didn't know about stillbirth either. I didn't know babies just could die in the womb.
00:06:15
Speaker
Of course, I think most of us realize there could be a complication or a genetic issue that they tell you about and then the baby passes or even in delivery, you might think about it. You might have heard of a cord issue or something, but I never thought a healthy pregnancy could just end with a stillbirth like this. Even in that pregnancy, I'm like, why didn't I do more? Why didn't I fight more about that? Why didn't I say something like, dude, you should put me on a monitor because I didn't know. I didn't have no clue.
00:06:46
Speaker
So a lot of women now, you know, we all look at it with hindsight. It's 2020. So you can say like, geez, Louise, that guy should have put me on a monitor. Like, well, I, you know, who knows if he wouldn't even caught it, you know, cause the NST that people do nowadays, just, you know, it's for that period of time anyway. So I was going to say, cause even if they didn't, he could have been perfectly fine. You could have went home and an hour later, something could have. Yeah. And then what we, unfortunately, our doctors didn't help us find a cause at the time, but.
00:07:15
Speaker
we have found it out now. It took us five years because we found out about Dr. Kliman, who does research on placenta, that it was actually due to cord compressions in the last days. So those cord compressions, like she said, I don't know that they would have noticed it. He would have been acting up maybe if the monitor was on him at that moment, and then he would have got off the cord, and he would have acted normal again, which is when it was until the last day when it went very south.
00:07:46
Speaker
For me, I mean, the tragedy of the death, like it's changed us both forever, my husband and I, and I think back a lot. Like, I don't know if everybody does this, but I always think about the days before and like, what could I possibly have been doing different? Was I not noticing him enough because I had a child and I was, you know, trying to entertain her and running around. But you know, so many people have that dynamic and they have a baby healthy, like, so.
00:08:16
Speaker
I definitely, I'm guilty of that too, like thinking back to the day before and what I was doing, like I was shopping and I felt like a weird feeling in my belly, but I would have never thought that that was what was happening, you know? So I totally understand that. I think about that all the time. Yeah, even to the minutes, you know, like I went in, so I noticed it really late at night.
00:08:42
Speaker
And I told my husband, just stay home. I think I'm just being paranoid, but I feel like he's not moving. Hardly like he was always so active. So I told my husband, I'm going in, I was freaking out. I just had this intuition about it. And my daughter was sleeping already and he wasn't feeling well. So I was like, just stay here. I'm going to go to the closest hospital. Just get this checked and I'll come home. And I got no idea what it was going to happen.
00:09:05
Speaker
But, you know, they take a while to check you in and they're just telling you, everything's fine, don't worry. Because I was crying already, just freaking out and they're like, everything will be okay. And so even those moments, I'm like, man, why didn't they put the monitor on like right away? Like they should have ran me into delivery immediately, you know? But I guess even them, like they don't expect that. Like you tell them, oh, I've been in a healthy pregnancy the whole time and nobody's,
00:09:32
Speaker
Expecting a baby at 31 weeks to just pass away So he was two months short of his actual due date Yeah, and I still now I'm like did that happen. How did that happen? Yeah, like yeah What the heck like I'm just sitting I sit here now even I'm like did my son really die like did I bury a baby? This is ridiculous. Yeah, is this real life? Yeah
00:09:58
Speaker
It's insane. And, you know, it takes a long time for the grief. Like, you know, it's obviously super heavy at first. I had to be put under for surgery. So when I woke up, it was super hazy. And my husband always tells me it was like hell for him because he got there as they were, you know, trying to resuscitate and they told him to come in and they're like, come meet your son. And then the minute they figured out that he, there was a problem. So they rushed him over to resuscitate. So my husband had to watch them.
00:10:28
Speaker
working on his little body. And he has this image in his mind, you know, of his little legs pumping up and down like, it's just horrendous. And the Mi Ling there, like I was cut open, like in the bloodbath, you know, he did it so quickly. So we didn't know if I had died, didn't say anything about me yet. And he's like, okay, you need to go back outside. And they sat him outside and then they brought him back in again. Like, well, now here's your dead son. But it was just like,
00:10:55
Speaker
Yeah. And they try to comfort him, hug him, and he's just like, get a back away from me. Like he just wanted to beat someone up. Like, how did you just let my son die? Like I was coming here thinking maybe he's going to be in the NICU, you know, a couple months, if that, but so when I woke up, he had to be the one to tell me. So he always says like, it was the worst because he had to see me go through that heartbreak over and over. And cause I was under, I kept kind of passing out, like waking back up and like, where's, where's Owen? Like,
00:11:24
Speaker
what happened and he had to keep reminding me that he had died. Like she said, I probably told you six times. Oh my gosh. So when you got to the hospital, they didn't put you on the monitor right away. But how long was that time before? Like from when you got there to when you, okay. They took you back to the network. They said after we were so mad or like, why didn't you cut me open right away? Like I got there and he was already crashing. Like he already had a low heart rate.
00:11:52
Speaker
But they didn't tell me, and that's the other layer of the trauma for me. It's like birth trauma on top of actual, like a death. I have birth trauma because they didn't inform me of the process and like what was happening. It was all so rushed, like no communication. So if anyone who's a provider, you know, you're in those situations, I know that they had to do their protocols and they were waiting for the OB to get there as he was on call and he wasn't there. So they were waiting for that whole hour.
00:12:20
Speaker
Meanwhile, setting up things like they were setting up the OR and they were doing an ultrasound on me to see why the baby wasn't reacting properly or why the heart was so low, but they hadn't informed me of anything. So until the doctor got there and they asked, what's this heart rate at?
00:12:38
Speaker
the nurse was kind of annoyed that the other nurse was like interrupting her ultrasound. I remember that because I'm like, what's going on here? But she's like, yep, it's, it's down to like 50. And then they were like, pulling me out, you know, on a stretcher, surgery. And the doctor was like, we're taking you in. This is like, what we need. I'm like, what? He's too young. Like, I was just worried about him being young, you know? Right.
00:13:04
Speaker
Well, this is his chance, you know, we don't know what's happening in there. And I'm like, I didn't even, my husband's not here. How's he not going to be here for the birth of his son? Like, like, well, you can call him, but he probably won't make it. I'm like, well, okay. So I had to call him and speak and I'm like freaking out. And my husband's like, don't worry, I'll be there as soon as I can. And he got a friend to come watch my daughter and ran over there. Like, again, it was only like five minutes from the house. So he got there while it was all happening pretty much. But he always is so angry too. Cause the NICU doctor who's supposed to be resuscitating our son.
00:13:33
Speaker
got in the elevator at the same time as he did. And she was just moseying in like nobody's concern at all as she's checking in with the nurse station. And he's meanwhile frantic looking for the room and he beat her to the room. And she didn't get to this bedside till 14 minutes after my son was born. Oh my gosh. Right. So they had plenty of time to get her there. And she of course was still not acting like it was urgent.
00:14:00
Speaker
But she's after, you know, like, Oh, well, the nurses knew what they were doing. They did the same thing I would have done. Like I trained them training and I like, but they couldn't do everything that you could have done. Cause she did, you know, you could put medication through a tube to the umbilical cord.
00:14:16
Speaker
Yes, all that, but only the doctor can do that. Yeah. And so when she did that, she actually got a heartbeat out of my son. So had she done it immediately, he would have been able to hopefully bounce out of it. But like, she did 14 minutes in, it was too late. It was obviously enough damage to everything. So yeah, I always really blame her a lot. And it's been hard, like, because he always wants, like, everyone tried their best, you know, but I don't feel like that, you know? Yeah,
Advocacy and Research for Stillbirth Prevention
00:14:44
Speaker
yeah, it's hard to feel that way.
00:14:46
Speaker
you know that it was 14 minutes because of you had read like the medical records after after the fact that we confronted her about it everything i try to get in trouble a little bit you know with the medical board and all that but they're like oh well technically she had up to like 30 minutes according to like what the standard she's not in house i have no idea and they had
00:15:07
Speaker
Yeah, but there has to be a neonatologist in the NICU at all times. You know what I mean? There was a NICU. She didn't treat it like it was a life to lose is like a statement that one of the doctors shared with us recently. And I like it. He says we should treat every pregnancy like a life to lose. Absolutely. I don't feel treated like that at all.
00:15:29
Speaker
So it's sad. And then, you know, we try to find out after like, what happened? And they're just like, Oh, we don't know. Sometimes healthy babies just die. And they kind of cried with us. And like, but you know, talk to someone out of the autopsy, because oh, we don't know if that's gonna find anything out. And you might, this woman told us like, all the horrible things about it, and didn't really inform us about what could potentially be helpful about it. Yeah, we're in grief. And we're just like, okay, no, don't mess with our son, then if you don't think it's gonna help, like, why?
00:15:58
Speaker
So we didn't do that. So that's why we had nothing to go with and like they wouldn't review anything with us after which, you know, we met with them. We finally got a meeting and they had like no paperwork, nothing to talk about other than just say, we don't know. We're so sorry. We don't know what happened. He was healthy. You know, he's perfect. 18 and a half inches long. Very cute. Oh my gosh. He was going to be a long little boy. He was going to be tough. Research I got later from Dr. Kleinman. He was like large for gestational age.
00:16:26
Speaker
Yeah, sounds like it. Placenta, which is another random thing, but he died from cord compressions in the last days, which we finally found out through this research. So it took us five years to find out anything. And then since then, I've used that, obviously, in my advocacy, because I'm like, let's measure the placenta. Let's look at what's going on in there, or let's look at the cord. And I know a lot of what we're saying, it's not evidence-based.
00:16:52
Speaker
stuff yet, which is so frustrating because they're like, well, not enough people are doing research, you know, so do their research that you need to do if you need that. But it's common sense to us when you look at stillbirth, like the majority are caused by placenta or cord issue, you know, and then the rest, they say, oh, we don't know 50%. We don't know the cause. Well, they're not really trying. So the ones we do know, it's a big issue and they're not really paying attention to the placenta or the cord in most pregnancies.
00:17:22
Speaker
So for me, that's why I focus so heavily on stuff like that. Even if they're going to throw it in my face, like, you know what I mean? We're research. Oh, well, they gave me the money. Let's get some research going. Like we're trying to get bills passed right now just to get some funding for that because it's true. I mean, yeah, you don't want everyone doing practice. That's not researched enough. But then again, like it's common sense to me, like so many court accidents, you know, you should look at the court once in a while, I would assume, but.
00:17:51
Speaker
Yeah. Were you a part of the podcast at a total loss before? Yeah. So that's, so I'm just wondering how people find out about Dr. Kleinman because that's where I heard when she interviewed him and then people have used his services for their own. Yeah, we've been talking, I mean, he's one of our board, medical board. Oh, that's so awesome. Yeah, we've been
00:18:16
Speaker
trying to get his name out a lot. I'm trying to find more people, but the thing is there really aren't that many trained pathologists in our country. So that's another part of the shine act that we're trying to get past is to train more people.
00:18:27
Speaker
Okay, they can give people answers. So it's like this is a very complicated issue and I feel like unfortunately until now because we're not gonna let them do it anymore people have just Like been like, oh, well, we don't know what happened and it's just too hard and we just don't have the information We don't have the data so they just give up. It's like a fatalist mentality like we don't we can't save these babies and like I'm very sorry to tell you that
00:18:51
Speaker
Like it's gonna stop now because people like me and other you know a lot of my group were very loud-mouthed Like I don't care who I upset anymore Like my son should be here and the fact that everyone's just like oh well We didn't know like I mean there's been other organizations around before my son died and I hadn't heard nothing about stillbirth So we're trying to be like really vocal on social media like thank you for having us on this podcast like anywhere I can talk I talk because I
00:19:19
Speaker
You know, it sucks to keep reliving trauma. Like tomorrow I might be out with a migraine all day, but I do it because, you know, my son mattered to me and I'm not just going to let him die in vain. Yes.
00:19:31
Speaker
Yeah, you're here to help the next person also, like you don't want something to go through what you went through. And maybe even I think it's really crazy because going back to the At A Total Loss podcast, I was listening to the one episode, I think today it was, and the mom was saying how she worked at the hospital as a photographer, where she lost her baby and the doctor that she kind of blames.
00:19:57
Speaker
just not taking her seriously. She has seen her after she had already, like, she, you know, she wrote a formal complaint about her and she said she's seen her and all she really wants is just to say, I'm really sorry. Like, I could, I'm going to do better. Like, I'm sorry that I didn't do better. Just say, I just don't understand that you can't, if I do something wrong, I'm the first to apologize. You could walk into me in the store and I'll say, I'm sorry to you.
00:20:24
Speaker
You did it, but I'm gonna apologize. So it's just like that. It's like, like just as a human, can we not apologize or learn?
00:20:31
Speaker
Well, that's exactly how I felt after because I was like, first of all, I need to know. I need to know why my son died. But also, you don't know. Now you're going back to work and you're doing the same thing. You're telling everyone your birthday is going to be like a sure thing. Like everything looks perfect. Everything's textbook. And you're doing the same amount of tests on that woman. You're not really giving her any extra time. You're not really explaining kit counting. You're not doing anything.
00:20:56
Speaker
you know, that I think you should be doing. So it really bothered me because I'm like, this sucks. Like they're just going to be more babies lost after Owen. And that's like, what can I do about it? They wouldn't even talk to me, you know, they wouldn't hardly return an email. It was like all through their risk management. But that's the big problem with this business. It is a business. It's for profit in our country. So there's a lot of people involved. The doctor might have a good heart, but then there's the lawyers tell them not to speak to the parents because they might see that you can admit any bit of guilt and they're going to come after you. Well,
00:21:26
Speaker
I just want to tell all the freaking lawyers in the world, first of all, most of us don't have rights for our babies. I don't know every case, but for a stillbirth in California at the time, my son had no rights, so I couldn't sue for him. I could only sue for very measly 250,000 for my pain and suffering and no lawyer would take my case. I called, trust me.
00:21:47
Speaker
maybe more than 50 people. And then finally, one really nice man called me back and said, I know you're probably being your head against the wall. Why isn't no one helping me because you have a case, but it's not being taken and this and that. He said, well, it's just honestly, it's the cap, because by the time we get everything figured out, we get the medical, you know, people to come in and speak about like your issue, it's just going to cost so much money. You're not going to get anything. We may not even cover ourselves. Wow.
00:22:14
Speaker
At the end of the day, I didn't want money. I wanted justice and I wanted change. And like, now that I'm learning about it, because I've spoken to like the birth trauma lawyers and stuff, I'm like, man, could I have maybe sued for birth trauma? I had a lot of that, you know? And they're like, yeah, but if they made you sign something, like, because usually they try to settle out of court, you would sign something and then you wouldn't be able to speak about it again.
00:22:37
Speaker
And like, that would be worse because the amount of replace my son, you can give me $50 billion. I wouldn't be happy still. But the fact that I can talk about it and save babies, like that's much more valuable to me. And I create some kind of change, you know, and like, if I ever get a notice, like I do sometimes people say like, Oh, I heard something you guys said. And you know, my child's here now. Like that is irreplaceable, obviously. So.
00:23:04
Speaker
It sucks for people that maybe they do sue, and then they get the money, and then they get silenced, and then they can't tell anyone anything to prevent this kind of stuff. But now that I know that I'm kind of like, okay, good thing it didn't work out that I didn't sue at the time, because I was very angry, and I wanted someone to pay in some way, and that was the way that you usually think. But I do think you're right.
00:23:25
Speaker
We don't really want a lawsuit. We just want people to say, yeah, man, that sucks.
Challenges in Healthcare and Legal Hurdles
00:23:31
Speaker
We missed this. And now we're going to do this different. And thank you. And you're taking help and you have an impact here in the care. But it's the system that's keeping them from saying that. I think that part of the mentality, too, in the hospital, just from working there as a nurse in L&D is like,
00:23:49
Speaker
Not that people don't want to say they're sorry, but it's like taught, like you don't say you're sorry, cause then you're admitting that you did wrong. And I think that that's why so many providers don't apologize or, and not saying that I'm sorry, I did this to you, but I'm sorry, this happened to you. I'm sorry that this is happening. If I could change it, I would, you know, I think just even that conversation would just open up, you know, a whole other dialogue and, and a lot of trust too. So,
00:24:20
Speaker
Yeah, even much later, you know, after I found out why Owen died, I reached out to the doctor because I'm like, why didn't he contact me when he received this from Dr. Climate? Like, you would think if you got some information on the loss that happened a long time ago, and you're kind of like, Oh, wow, someone found this out. And now I have that relief, because really, I feel like it would have been a relief, because he said on his report, it was cord compression, something that really hard to detect and, and prevent.
00:24:47
Speaker
Well, this man never contacted me. So I contacted and I had a like one-on-one like this, like a Zoom. And I was like, I just wanted to talk to you. And the whole time he was just looking at me, like I was like, I had three heads. Like, why are you even bothering me? Like, why are you calling? Like, what do you want from me? A very nice man. But I think he was just kind of like dumbfounded, like, what do you want me to do with this? And I'm like, I want you to use it. Like, now you know the whole thing.
00:25:09
Speaker
Like maybe you can teach people more about counting than you did with me because I remember at the time I'm like, I don't think they ever spoke about the importance for sure. But how to actually do it. And he said, Yeah, I think I put a pamphlet in there. Like that's what we normally do when you get pregnant, you get a pamphlet of information. Like why I knew about it, but also it was never an issue because myself was so active, which is another like it's a myth that people
00:25:35
Speaker
kind of feel like, well, my baby's moving outside, I don't need to do that, or my baby's healthy, or I'm low risk, I don't need to do that. Every pregnancy should be told, everybody who's pregnant should be told, kick count. Every day, after 26, 28 weeks, wherever you want to start, if you have a pattern of movement, notice a change, come in, whether it's more or less, come in.
00:25:54
Speaker
It's so simple to do that. And I don't know why it's just so much like paternalism still where people think, oh, we're going to freak out all the women. They're going to be so nervous all the time. Like, I'm sorry to tell you, we're all nervous anyways. Like, there's one thing or another. See, like, I had terrible things with my first. I was scared forever because, you know, they see things on ultrasounds and they have to tell you, and then you have to worry about it until it works out or it doesn't, you know?
00:26:20
Speaker
But that's the thing with this kid counting and stuff, you know, we don't want to give them unnecessary stress. Like really? You're actually empowering the mom. You're telling her some information. You're telling her how to do it. She can act on it if she feels something. You're going to trust her because she's going to have, you know, the knowledge and she's going to tell you it's different today. And then you're going to look at it and like figure something out, you know, but it's still very, I don't know. People don't seem to think that moms can handle to know about stillbirth.
00:26:50
Speaker
which, you know, is part Yeah, because if you go on, if you go in your obese office, and I've been pregnant years and years ago, so it's a long time ago, but there was never anything that said like, there was never pamphlets about it was just pamphlets about like, you know, breastfeeding and bottles and formula and
00:27:08
Speaker
There was never any literature about loss. And now here, you know, 22, 23 years later, I, you know, I, doing this, I know that like one in four people lose their pregnancies. Oh my gosh, you should have some sort of literature laid out for loss and let people know like this does happen. Like you said, and the kick counting.
00:27:30
Speaker
All I remember is that my baby moved, kicked. I didn't know that you had a kick. I didn't know. And then, yeah, you're like noticing movement, like what they like, what foods they've moved around with, you know? No one made you clearly aware that that's like really closely related to the help of the baby and yourself. Sometimes it can be, you know, life saving for a mom as well.
00:27:56
Speaker
Yeah, so we're working on right now, push for empowered pregnancy on a tip card that we want to put in hospitals and, you know, wherever we can get them. And we've been struggling with it because, you know, we want to put what we wish we knew, which is a lot. And we want to put it like blatantly, because we think people tip toe around it too much. And then you don't really get it. And you don't really take it too seriously. You're like, well, that's gonna, that's not gonna happen to me. You know, am I having not coming to her appointments or not taking her vitamins or who
00:28:25
Speaker
has had some kind of complication like preeclampsia and they noticed it or something. But we want it to be where everyone knows, you know, this is a serious matter. It happens to one out of 170 pregnancies. It doesn't have to though. It's preventable and like at least a fourth, you know, probably much more. So, but yeah, we haven't finalized it yet. Cause we keep looking at it like, would it be weird if we handed this to a woman who's pregnant right now who doesn't know about loss? And we're just like, here read about stillbirth prevention.
00:28:54
Speaker
don't get scared. It's important. Like read this stuff. You know, so like we've been, you know, I have it. I don't know if you've seen it in my stories, but I've been sharing and getting feedback. You know, mostly I lost moms follow me a lot. So they're like, it's great. We wish we had this, but you know, I've been passing it to people who are not lost parents to like a mommy labor nurse, one of our collaborators that we've just loved. And she, they said, yeah, it looks good to us. I'm like, okay, well, as long as the whole,
00:29:19
Speaker
world doesn't like throw them in the garbage because they're too scary but we think that they're important like you need to talk about Stilber to have awareness and to prevent it so.
00:29:29
Speaker
maybe those will be in offices soon. So an untapped resource, and this is only from experience, I am a portrait photographer for, you know, 20 years. In my studio, I have the Count the Kicks, because we have an ambassador in New Jersey, so I have her cards by my studio door because I get, I only do maternity newborn, pretty much, but
00:29:50
Speaker
maternity photographers are an untapped resource because we can just leave it out. I'm personally not nervous to say, hey, you know, take this card with you. It's really important just to stress it because we see them around like between 20 and 32 weeks, which is a great time to give them that information and also 3d 4d ultrasound clinics because they generally start seeing patients around
00:30:14
Speaker
I know the one near us that volunteers her time for families who have like, what do you say, like a fatal, how do you put that? A diagnosis. A fatal condition. She'll volunteer her time and do like the heartbeat bears and things, but she starts ultrasound between six and 10 weeks. So she also has that information. So like those kinds of places are really where
00:30:36
Speaker
You're going to get these families really early and you're able to pass the information along. And they look up to you. They trust you because you see so many pregnant families, pregnant people. I love that. Thank you, Desiree.
00:30:51
Speaker
I think it's a great place to start because I don't know if the doctors, I mean, yeah, I think doctors should, but do I think they're going to all the time? No, but I think us, we probably, I know I would. I know my ultrasound girl would. We'll do that. I'll give you a bunch and let's see how they go. I'm so nervous to like finalize it too because I'm like, I want it to be perfect, but then we can always do a new version. So I think we're going to be done.
00:31:16
Speaker
Oh my gosh, you're always gonna, you're always going to redo it. Like, Oh, I thought I should add this to it. Yeah. I mean, it's like, obviously that stillbirth prevention tips are like, you know, sleep on your side and kick count and being able to advocate for yourself, being able to know like, if there's something wrong with your body to report it right away.
Pregnancy After Loss: Rainbow Clinics and Support
00:31:37
Speaker
But what's interesting
00:31:39
Speaker
you know, even after I lost Owen, I got like a high risk doctor for my next pregnancies. And even in those situations, I don't remember them talking about kid counting at all. And I was now a high risk patient. So I think they assume maybe that I knew or that I had learned at this point that the baby could die. So I should be paying attention. So I was doing that myself anyway, in a very erratic way where I was like,
00:32:02
Speaker
trying to count every kick, don't need to do that, but I was doing, I was obsessed with it cause I was so scared. I'm like, I can't sleep. I can't miss a minute. Like it might happen again, but, and I had a high risk situation. My son ended up, um, I had an incompetent cervix. Then I had a sir clash and this was at the, you know, one of the big appointments I was freaking out, you know, everyone going through pregnancy after loss.
00:32:29
Speaker
I'm sure relates with me. It's like the worst experience ever and you want to enjoy it because you're like, this might be all I get. And so I would take pictures every week, you know, my belly and try and like my daughter would take them for me and I was trying to really.
00:32:41
Speaker
you know, connect and everything. And then at that appointment, they told me, Oh, like we need to talk about something. And I was like, great, like something else horrible. And, you know, luckily it was a common cervix and nothing worse than that. But that was still very scary. And I had to have the surgery on the weekends and I was dilating and everything. So it could have been a loss at like two weeks.
00:33:00
Speaker
And then I had bed rest for 17 weeks. So that was fun. So I know how to move those shoes because I couldn't leave the house. I missed everything with my daughter and like only got to leave the house for the appointments basically. And I got like maybe one or two, I think it was her birthday party and her dance recital that I got to go to. And then the rest like every holiday I miss, you know, 4th of July.
00:33:25
Speaker
But it was worth it, obviously, but I was losing my mind because I was so scared and I was just laying on my side all day and just like crocheted so many random things for my little boy. It's so funny what I put him in when he was born finally. But, um, yeah. And then with that situation, I actually had an infection at some point, which I was telling my doctor I had and they kept telling me, no, you don't, you look good. Like we've tested.
00:33:50
Speaker
And the next appointment, I was crying. I was like freaking out on them. And they're like, well, what can we do to make you feel better? Like, I don't know, but I'm scared you're missing something and I'm going to lose another baby. And she's like, well, I have one more test I can run, but we don't think it's this. They did the test because I said, well, please do it, you know, whatever ones you have left. And then she called me. She's like, you were right, Anna. You have a GBS infection and you need medication because it was really high.
00:34:20
Speaker
Um, and also I had BV, I don't know what that one stands for, but, uh, bad again for the baby and me. So thank God I was so psycho about it. Like, like if I hadn't lost a baby, I would have stopped though, because I would have taken them for their word that they checked everything or they looked good. I must not be right. You know, but I was like, no, do something, you know, and then they finally found it. And thank God, because, you know, that could have been dangerous. So.
00:34:49
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, it sucks. But even with that high risk doctor that happened so and they were really lovely and they always did listen to me it just they didn't find it with the test that they thought they should be doing so It was pretty scary. So yeah, that's why I'm done with babies It's hard enough to do pal and then do a high risk pal but the complications so we do have
00:35:17
Speaker
through push a rainbow clinic that's come to from the UK. So it's actually Dr. Heasles model of the rainbow clinic with the charity. Tommy's is over there that supports it. Many of them. So we got one in New York with Mount Sinai. And that's like Dr. Stone is the main doctor for that. And we're, you know, we put a lot of money into that. It's all set up now though it's running and
00:35:44
Speaker
We have a training that we kind of provide for them that we're allowing other people to take. You don't even have to have a full-blown clinic if you want to take the training. It's pushpregnancy.thinkific.com, I think is the page, but you can DM me if you want a link, and I can give you a free code if you're a parent. You can try it out. You can give it to your doctor and have them do it. So it provides trauma-informed care. It goes through some of our stories, and we have reenactments.
00:36:13
Speaker
We actually had actors do some of these reenactments, like what you should definitely not say an appointment to a parent after loss. That's awesome. It's better. Yeah, we talked about if you're having ultrasound done, like communicate more because that patient is freaking out, you know, that kind of thing. So we can provide the codes. We're actually right now, since it's still February, you guys could look online, but it's a free code for anyone to take it. So if you have a doctor, a friend, a doula, anybody who deals with pregnancies after loss,
00:36:43
Speaker
I definitely have in my mind, I can think of so many people right now that I would love to send this to who really want this information. Yeah, and it's quick. It's a virtual model, so you can go online and you can do that at your own pace. I think it takes like five hours max or something.
00:37:02
Speaker
This is awesome. Yeah. Columbia also has a rainbow clinic coming soon and they took the training as well. And then they're going to launch. So we didn't provide funding for the Columbia one or LA also has one now, which is through Dr. Rad. Um, and he didn't require us to help him with launching that one. So all we did was the training as well for that provided, um, the online training model for his staff. Cause we want everyone to take it like from the receptionist to the doctor.
00:37:31
Speaker
Whoever handles the patient should be aware because you could just be told one wrong thing and it can ruin your whole. Oh, that's amazing. What the actual rainbow clinics do though is a little bit obviously step up of the care, which is what a lot of high risk doctors do too anyway.
00:37:50
Speaker
That's going to be hopefully in the next coming this whole year, we're going to have some meetings with Dr. Heasel and he's going to outline more because he didn't expect it to be like it is now where everyone now wants one in the United States. Like now that we started one, then like they're starting to kind of branch out and he's like, well, I want to make sure they're doing it right and collect the data, which is also really important for them for research. Because what you and probably you guys know, but not everyone knows,
00:38:20
Speaker
is that if you experience a loss, you're more likely to have another. And so the rainbow clinic in the UK actually has good rates. So like they don't have tremendous amount of loss because of the additional care that they're providing and how they're doing it. So there is a model for care that we need to do here as well. And our overall hope, you know, and dream is that, you know, obviously everyone want to get a rainbow clinic, wherever they need one, but
00:38:44
Speaker
that eventually everyone's care will be like this. Like why do you have to lose a baby to have good care? It's ridiculous. We already know these things work and they're better. So why do we pick and choose? Obviously it's here money. It's a money issue, but you know, enough parents are like, no, I'm not going to take that little bit of care. You know, I want the third trimester ultrasound so you can make sure baby's still okay. You know, eventually our medical system will have to give in
00:39:14
Speaker
know, because we are clients here. I mean, technically, we should be able to make some demands. So yeah. Don't you think a lot of this just starts with basic empathy? Just be an empathetic person. It really just starts. Well, here's the problem. And you know, it's hard because I know some people have bad experience with their doctor specifically.
00:39:36
Speaker
I think for the most part doctors come into this for the right reasons obviously and they care and they work really hard to do it and they may not see all the issues too like medicine is a practice so until you get that person in front of you with a certain weird like me my you know infection that they didn't realize was
00:39:53
Speaker
Yeah. Um, you know, they're going to learn from it, but I don't think they don't mean well. Obviously they want to save the babies, but it's the system is like they, especially the ones with groups, like they have so many patients in and out and they have to do it in this amount of time because of the amount of people they have to see to cover costs and everything. So they don't really get the luxury of just chilling and getting to know me, you know, like I wish they were. And of course, high risk doctors get paid more. They have more time with each patient.
00:40:23
Speaker
So it's just different. I mean, dream world would be like everyone had Medicaid for pregnancy or something. So it can all be handled kind of like in the UK. Yeah. Like we all would be able to get good care, but we're not there yet. So we do little by little. So the rainbow clinic is kind of like a foot in the door with that. Like let's show them how good care can be for this population of moms that should experience more loss. And they're not because we are doing a good job with that. So hopefully that'll spread. And then.
00:40:54
Speaker
Um, you know, we work with the bills that are out right now, the shine for autumn act and the stillbirth prevention act, and we're trying to get those past.
Funding and Legislative Efforts
00:41:01
Speaker
Cause you know, a sad thing is that we just don't have the research and we don't have the data in this country. So a lot of times we want certain things done. They're like, well, we don't really know if that works. It's not evidence-based. Like, well, then put some money into research, you know, and then as well, we have to fundraise, you know, of course, like we have to get the funding. It's just, that's so hard, you know?
00:41:24
Speaker
There's no funding into it. And I never understood that either, even coming up as a nurse. When I was in nursing school, I remember searching for articles related to this. And there was hardly anything out there. That was 13 years ago. Recently, I've been searching, and I found some articles from a nurse in Washington state, Nikki Berry. And she's doing a lot of studies for trauma-informed care. We're actually going to have an episode with her coming up.
00:41:52
Speaker
Yeah, she's, I asked her, I said, how are you getting funding? And she said, grants, like we apply for grants, but there's not a lot of funding. So it's just like a work of her heart, you know? Yeah, I know. And even like for me, my issue currently is like the data mess of the country that we have where like every state collects the loss. Obviously they have to report it, but they can do it however they want right now.
00:42:17
Speaker
So not every state is doing, you know, as much like they may not find out as much about the cause and put it in there. So in my world, I'm like, if you don't even have that, you can't even get started. Like we don't even know why so many of these babies are dying. So it's going to be really hard for us to argue like this is what we can do to prevent it because there can just say, you don't know why they died. Like, well, you're not writing it down or you're not asking them to write it down.
00:42:43
Speaker
So I'm fighting for that right now and especially because my son's death was unexplained when the paperwork was filled out because they didn't help me. It says he died of natural causes. So that's ridiculous. What will that really even mean? A baby doesn't just naturally die in the womb.
00:43:02
Speaker
And so if a researcher ever even tried to look at that, which they pretty much don't because they realize that's messy, you know, it's not good, they wouldn't be able to use it for anything. So I was trying to get them to update it now that I know the cause. And it took a whole year for my doctor to deny me and tell me that the lawyers told her not to. Yeah.
00:43:21
Speaker
I was like, well, that's weird. I thought you were making sure that I had the right cause. And so you were gonna write something down here, but you just tell me you were waiting to hear from your lawyers. Like, wow. So yeah, I was pretty pissed off about it for a long time. And then, you know, I was talking to a lot of different people, but like, Dr. Lauren Lindquist is one of the researchers in our country that
00:43:41
Speaker
She was like, well, you know, the thing is we don't really use that because we kind of know it's not the best data. So like they go obviously get grants and whatnot and they do their research with certain hospitals and the, you know, the moms that they get signed up and whatnot so they can get more detailed information.
00:43:58
Speaker
Okay, so I guess I could stop going crazy about his data being incorrect, but I do think it needs to be a change in the system because they should be going back and amending, especially within the first year before they report it to the CDC. You find out autopsy and all that much after they filled out the initial form.
00:44:18
Speaker
they could and that... Oh, and they never go back and amend it after that? That you know of? The process. They can't. I mean, it's an option. So that's why I asked. I'm like, well, I see you can amend it. But it's not common. And they were like, this is an unusual request. I'm like, yeah, because I'm an unusually pissed off mob. I don't know. I don't want my son's information wrong anywhere. I don't understand.
00:44:44
Speaker
They know it means a lot to you. What is the, you know what I mean? What's the harm? What is the harm? Yeah. And it's ridiculous. Cause I'm like, why are you telling your lawyers when it's eight years later? I cannot sue eight years later. Like I have no rights. I never did. It's not the object of it. So that's annoying. But I'm like, really, they're not going to use it. Like the CDC is not going to redo their numbers for 2015 for me, you know?
00:45:09
Speaker
But I do want them to start doing it from now on. Like now that we know there's a problem, which I don't know if you guys have been watching, they do have the NICHD and NIH groups. They have the Silvers Working Group.
00:45:22
Speaker
they have been talking about all this stuff now, looking into it. And so like, they're very aware now in the government, apparently, fairly now, that there is a problem with data collection and with all these things, you know, were lost. So hopefully now that they are admitting it, that there's a problem, they're going to be doing something about it. So
00:45:40
Speaker
I don't have to make all these darn emails and calls all the time. Is that just like, at the CDC and everywhere, I'm like, I don't even care about it for me. I care about it for the knowledge that we need to do something about it so we can prevent it. Like they say, the first step is admitting that there's a problem. Well, you would already get that, but you know, there's 21,000 babies a year that die.
00:46:09
Speaker
this crazy period where they're viable. I don't want to get political because that just muddles the water here because this is different from it. But when someone is so concerned with saving babies and they don't give money to prevention of stillbirth, I'm very flustered. So it's hard because I think there is a fatalism about stillbirth where people just assume like, oh, well, that baby just was unfortunate. It just died and we couldn't have done nothing more.
00:46:38
Speaker
No, you could have done something more and now we're trying to make you do it, but it's too late for my child, you know, which sucks. I wish people were like us before, you know, we have social media. I feel like things happen the way they do, but you know, social media is a big tool now. So there's a lot of moms on, you know, I'm sure I know many of your listeners.
00:47:01
Speaker
that are out there vocal on their, even on their platform. I mean, it means a lot. And I know like some people look at us like, Oh, you're just angry moms, lost moms. And you know, you're being too much. But I'm like, really? Or am I like, I have an eight year old in heaven. Like that's not normal. He should be here. He was healthy. Why didn't they save him? And you know, you guys are acting like nothing happened. Like you want the world to stop. Like you just want everyone to
00:47:29
Speaker
pay attention, like the doctors to go through the records with you and like figure it out. And then they don't, of course it's going to make you angry. And you know, sometimes you need to be loud about it.
00:47:41
Speaker
Like fortunately right now, you know, push, I think that's kind of our role because we aren't paid. We're not, you know, a business right now. So like, no one's worried about like funding being cut or something, but you know, we, we do what we gotta do to get notice. And like, you know, we did a onesie walk like right off the bat. Our first year we walked through New York. I didn't get to go. I was too unavailable, but everyone went and they had onesies. Uh, we actually did 600, I believe, which is a number.
00:48:11
Speaker
maybe even 800. There's a lot of Wednesdays, but we had families donate, like they sent some for their baby in honor of their baby. And they, we put them on a long line and they walked through all of New York city streets and people were stopping like, what is this for? You know, so that was kind of our first awareness thing. Yeah. And we did a big push, which was how powerful everyone had empty strollers. So we walked them around the national mall and we had speeches there.
00:48:39
Speaker
I screamed at people. I didn't know I was going to scream that day. It was so funny because I drove off with my daughter from North Carolina. So I was listening to the podcast on the way and I was listening to these like, you know, motivational speaker guys and people like who are really amped up. And I was like, because I want to give it some energy. I don't want to get on a big stage and just talk like normal. So I was listening to this.
00:49:02
Speaker
people all like, you know, so I didn't even wrote my speech and then the morning of I was like, I should probably write something down because I might lose it for a while emotional and trauma brain, you know, I might forget what I need to say here. So I wrote something down and I didn't know how long it was going to be because we all had like a short time limit, you know, a lot of speakers, but I ended up coming up there and I ended up screaming at everyone. I was so upset. Like, well, I will end up today, I guess.
00:49:31
Speaker
And I'm thinking about all the moms and dads, you know, because we don't have a voice. We don't have a stage to get on. Some of us can't.
00:49:40
Speaker
Yeah, there's people that message me now that just recently lost a baby and they're like, I really want to get involved, but I can't yet. And I'm like, it's okay. Like we'll keep going. We'll keep pushing for you and your baby. And you know, when you get a chance, if you want to help, you can help. If you want to just do it quietly, because there's so many people needed for this work. Like if you're a graphic designer and you want to make some posts, that's fine. You know, if you want to share the ones we were doing, that's fine. Like you don't know who it's going to reach. Like it will help somebody somewhere.
00:50:10
Speaker
Oh, what are what are some ways that people could help if they wanted to like volunteer or help the cause with push push We take people all time. You can be a changemaker. You just sign up on our website push pregnancy org slash contact and We'll let you know when we're doing stuff right now. I'm on the medical team. So we're having a meeting actually tomorrow I'm really excited because we got up new faces. They're signing up to come in and
00:50:35
Speaker
plan stuff out because we do want to do stuff within the system as well you know what we have to work with now so like presentations at hospitals about you know still bird prevention we do want to do the rainbow clinic training and spread that everywhere so if you have a provider you can just you know tell them about that
00:50:55
Speaker
you know, we do a lot on social media. So a lot of people are comfortable. I'm I'm doing it because I have to like when I started this, I hated it. I didn't want to do it. But nobody wanted to really do it. So I did like, I've like almost every week entering all these doctors and moms and everything like
00:51:11
Speaker
I don't know. I can't even count how many lives I went on because someone had to do it and I did it. And then I was like, I'm used to it now. I'll just do it. Forget it. I'll just do it. I don't care what it looks like. But if you're not that type of person, don't worry about it. There's always behind the scenes stuff like contacting health departments, being involved with the bills and stuff. There's so many different ways. And you don't have to have money because some people feel like, oh, I didn't do anything big enough.
00:51:41
Speaker
I didn't start a charity in the name of my baby. Well, that's okay. You don't have to do that. Like that is not the way for everyone.
Support for Grieving Parents
00:51:48
Speaker
And, you know, your child still matters. Whether all you feel like you're capable of doing is just like forwarding a post to a friend who's pregnant. That's great. That might save that baby's life. You can't put a number on stuff like that. Yeah. So message me. You always DM me is still my son. I love.
00:52:11
Speaker
Meeting new people, although I hate meeting lost moms and dads, it sucks, but yeah, we're here for you guys. I know like, I guess a big part of why we all do this, like so far down the line is like, you remember what it felt like when it first happened to you and you were so alone and like, why did my child die? You know, and like, you feel like a black sheep of your community and everything, but like there are so many of us.
00:52:38
Speaker
And you will get through it one day. It's like a day by day process or hour by hour. But it's super hard. I know. I cried so much. Anna, if someone contacted you, not about the advocacy work, but just as a person and just wanted to know what they could do to help themselves because they're a newly grieving parent, what advice would you give them? My goodness. Sorry.
00:53:07
Speaker
Well it's weird because when people reach out to me now they think they see my work that they mostly want answers and I think that's really like the first step to healing for a lot of people and like I just remind them you know there's nothing you did it's not your fault because I think you feel very guilty as the mom especially when you were so closely connected to your baby that you didn't notice somehow you feel like you should have like you should have done more you could have done more and like
00:53:34
Speaker
That's, I think, kind of what my role is, is just reassuring parents. Like, first of all, if we had known, you know, we would have done it, whatever it was. Like, I would have fought so hard for Owen. Like, I would have given my life for him. So it's just terrible that it happened that way to anybody, but my
00:53:58
Speaker
like DMS definitely are open and if anyone ever messaged me and I don't reply it's because I'm thinking of an answer because I really want to give you guys that you know like full attention if my other kids are running around I might not respond right away but like I read every one of them and I respond to them because it's
00:54:14
Speaker
Like I know how you're feeling, it's awful. And sometimes I don't respond and then they're like, they, they like comment on a story or something like, Oh shoot, I never got back to you. I am so sorry because I was trying to find out this information you asked me about. And then I respond, you know, but like, I know how hard it is to be feeling alone in it. And that's the worst, I think really. Cause you know, in grieving a child, everyone around you,
00:54:40
Speaker
still living you know and they're still going on with their life and you're stuck and you're just like and especially me I keep going back to those days and I'm like I'm going backwards but you feel people are forgetting your child and that's like the worst feeling in the world especially around your family and stuff and you're just like why don't you talk about Owen today and then I started to you know give them grace because I'm like what else are they gonna say about him they don't know what else to say he died to them he died and that's all there is to it like there's nothing large
00:55:10
Speaker
to question or talk about, they saw, some of them saw him. So I think my grief has gotten easier to deal with because I stopped expecting those people to know what to say, how to bring Owen up and stuff, and knowing that there are other people that are thinking about Owen, like my lost community and the work that we're doing. When I talk about him, I get to talk about him. So it's different, obviously, what you would expect.
00:55:40
Speaker
You're like, I want them to call me on the birthday and do something special because you see other people that get that kind of support and it's kind of sad. You're like, why don't anyone in my family think to plant a tree or something, you know, whatever. You know, everyone grieves differently, even your family members and people don't know what to say.
00:55:59
Speaker
So I kind of let people go off the hook now. Yeah, I think too as moms, our relationship to our children, even though it's the same, they're not here, our relationship changes as the years go by. We do other things for them. Even though they're not here, our relationship is still evolving and changing. And we're growing as their parents and their advocates. And I think it's hard for family because
00:56:25
Speaker
they don't have that same connection that we do to our babies. And I have definitely been bummed out that they don't talk about her anymore.
00:56:35
Speaker
It made me sad for the longest, but now, you know, I've kind of extended grace to them that, you know, it's, it's different for them. And my relationship with her is still changing every day. You know, I'm doing new things for her. I'm remembering her in new ways. Even I forget things and then I remember, Oh God, I remember that happens. You know, it is hard. And I think what our community is doing too, is helping people that like normalize mothering and parenting after loss. Like I,
00:57:06
Speaker
feel like initially like this was a while ago for me but eight years ago I didn't see that much on social media I didn't know anyone so I didn't really know how to proceed like how am I supposed to first of all live but also like be a mom to Owen I don't know what else to do and I didn't have the funds to just go start something big or you know I did walks I did whatever I could but I
00:57:28
Speaker
always felt like I would see others that did have a charity or that created something. Like they made jewelry really nice. And I was like, why can't I think of a woman or Owen? Like I felt like a loser. And it's silly, but like, I just, you know, I wanted to mom, be his mom. I wanted to do something big for him, you know? I mean, really with this charity, we're barely starting. I mean, it's only like two and a half years old, but we're doing pretty big things. And
00:57:57
Speaker
even doing those things, it's not about them being big or not. It's just the impact you want. Like you want to see somebody doing something and preventing it because I don't want people to suffer like we all have. It's just so tragic knowing tonight 65 more babies didn't come home, you know, and I don't forget that. So
00:58:21
Speaker
And even when we go to, you know, we're meeting with legislators all the time and I'm like, well, while you think about this for another week or so, just keep in mind how many babies you guys are letting die. Because we could be doing something about it, like with kick counting, count the kicks. Like if every state had it right now, you know, they've done a significant rate reduction in their state, Iowa, like it's proven, it's evidence-based. So even if we could just adopt that right now, we could have
00:58:50
Speaker
you know, fourth of the babies here. So why let it keep happening? Yeah. How many States are, um, tied to count the kicks or, or do you know how many? I would eyeball like, uh, estimate like a half baby or something like that. But I mean, they work really hard. They go state by state. They try to get the health department to use their funds. So that's why they're trying to pass this, um, stillbirth prevention act, which is the one that they're behind.
00:59:19
Speaker
because that will free up the money from the Title V funding, which is already existing. So we're not asking for our new money. It's the money that already exists. They just don't put stillbirth prevention in that because that's the old thing. It's like from 1930s. So at that time, I'm sure they didn't even know it was preventable, you know, so they didn't mention stillbirth in this. So we want them to add stillbirth as one of the ways that they can use the funding, stillbirth prevention.
00:59:44
Speaker
So if they did that, then it'd make it a lot easier if Count the Kicks comes in and says, hey, use the Title V funding, which they can do now. They just have to convince people to do it, which is harder. But that's why those ambassadors that they have to are very helpful, because they are the ones too that live in the state and that are meeting constantly, trying to push for that.
01:00:04
Speaker
It is spreading, but it could be faster. Everything could be faster. And for us lost moms, it's like, it should be happening right now. We don't have time to waste. We don't have time for you to figure things out. It's not that costly. It's really just awareness. I have to really give you guys credit, your organization and everyone that volunteers with you, because two and a half years, I had no idea that it hasn't only been that long.
01:00:30
Speaker
everything you're saying I'm just like blown away by one thing and then you add something else and like holy cow you're doing a great job honestly yeah we don't sleep much we're all trying to work normal jobs or be with our living children all day and then we try to get knock things out in between you know but and it's hard to keep up with everyone you know that way because we're not staff members
01:00:56
Speaker
So now you can expect everyone to be in nine to five. So we like message each other really late or something, some cool idea like, Oh, and like you just told me does raise some ideas tonight. So I'll have to add that to my list. So, you know, eventually, hopefully they all get done, you know, and that's what's so great about the change makers that join us. Cause that really does help us like all these new people coming in that want to, to have the energy and that can take just a little piece of that, you know, project. It would make it like much faster for us.
01:01:26
Speaker
You know, we're learning that too, because none of us are professional nonprofit leaders. There's a lot of parents that care, you know, so we don't necessarily know what we're doing. We don't have a PR yet. Like we don't have no clue. Like we might say stuff we should say, you know, but we're just making our mind from our heart.
01:01:48
Speaker
So I say that all the time. I'm like, I don't know if I should have said that, but I mean it in the best way for my heart. It doesn't come from a bad place or a good place. All right. This is a life or death situation. So at the end of the day, I don't care if people think I'm a little too much. Like my son died. You don't know what that means unless it happened to you. So I'm going to be intense. I'm gonna
01:02:13
Speaker
be a little frustrated if you don't let me speak at a conference that we should be speaking at or something. But yeah, that's something still worth until recently hasn't been one of the topics in maternal health that gets a lot of the attention. And it's probably all based on the fact that everyone knows how hard it's going to be because we don't have good data, we don't have good research. But that's the reason not to include it in the conversation, especially when the numbers are so high. Yeah, it's happening all the time. And
01:02:42
Speaker
Providers are having to deal with that it happening all the time. So why not, you know, why can't we talk about it? Even if there is no research? I mean you definitely even see trends working in the field. So yeah research or not, you know Yeah, and we're getting the research but we don't have like the big, you know funds for it all the time I mean imagine like the things that we can do with technology these days and we still use like the similar same ultrasounds or NSTs that we've done for so long like
01:03:11
Speaker
things really should be evolving a lot more, especially with the technology. And there is some exciting stuff with AI that people are looking at trying to do with the ultrasound, where they can help catch things. So we're interested in what technology really can do for this.
01:03:30
Speaker
I think really it's on the basic level where it's like awareness first, let everybody know about stillbirth and this is unfortunately a risk for everybody. Even a healthy textbook pregnancy can go wrong like mine, like that way they're aware and they can be a little bit more aggressive in there, you know, bringing you information because right now it's like, guess what? The highest rates are in first time moms or in low risk pregnancies.
01:04:00
Speaker
Probably because he didn't tell her about stillbirth. Probably. I'm sorry, can I cuss here? No, she probably wasn't worried about anything. So like me, I thought I was, this is why you're the blindsided. I'm like, yeah, freaking blindsided, wasn't I? Yeah. Yes, you were. Is there anything before we end that we didn't ask you or that you wanted to talk about?
01:04:27
Speaker
I didn't even go into all the full details of my loss because it is so traumatic for me still eight years later and I don't know if anyone watches my videos but I break out in hives usually at any point when I start talking about Owen because I did see that physically and the trauma of the birth too is still in my body. So I try not to focus on my child because this isn't about him anymore anyway. I of course love him and I wish he was here.
01:04:57
Speaker
And, you know, I'll never forget his little face and, you know, the hole in our family is always there because of the gap that we have between our children, you know, 12 and a six year old. So he would have been the perfect buddy to both of them. And, you know, Owen is, you know, looking over us and I hope, you know, proud of what we're trying to do. But like, it's not what I focus on every day.
01:05:22
Speaker
Like I try not to relive the trauma, but when I get interviewed, you know, I do it because people want to know and they want to, you know, relate to you and they, they can learn from certain things too, you know, and the stories for prevention. But I, I really hope that moms, dads who are losing babies still, they just remember like your child will never be forgotten. And like our circles, regardless if you feel like it's happening in your daily life.
01:05:52
Speaker
you know, there will be people you meet along the way that will help carry that memory forward and honor them. And like, you know, in holidays, I'll get things from random friends that took a picture of a butterfly or something with own name. And that just like, you know, makes my heart so light, you know, because it's, it is a heaviness that you just feel so sad. Like they're just more time between when you last saw them and everything. But, you know,
01:06:17
Speaker
It's such a different life and it's like you never would have thought it would happen this way, but you know, you'll find a way through and eventually, hopefully feel like, you know, you're able to talk about your child in whatever realm you end up in. But if you want to be an advocate, we love having people with big mouths out in a bush. And like all the behind the scenes people too, we have some people who are very organized, you know, we need them all.
01:06:46
Speaker
Um, and any ideas you guys have, we're always open to them. Of course, cause we all, I still have more ideas, but I'm going to message you on Instagram. You know, we kind of have the flexibility of like, we don't have a program in place yet, so we can take new ideas and try them. And, um, you know, we're starting to get some sponsor money coming in for things that we really want to work on. So now we definitely appreciate any connections or any event. That's all. If anyone needs rainbow clinic training or, you know, we call it pregnancy after loss training.
01:07:16
Speaker
let me know, we can give you a code if it's not available anymore. But like, I like to just get people exposed to that. And like, especially if it's just like an individual, like if you work with parents and you just want to know how to speak with them. But if your hospital wants to actually become a clinic, we can also help you guys with that process when that starts happening again. So that's amazing. That's so amazing. So amazing. I can't wait to share that information.
01:07:45
Speaker
We love it. Cause you know how it is. Like if you went through pregnancy after loss, this horrendous and it can be beautiful, but it's mostly just so freaking scary. And knowing that your care provider at least understands that and is connecting with you and like remembering your baby. There's so many ways it could be a little bit better, you know? Yeah.
01:08:07
Speaker
Mm-hmm. We have one of our moms in our support group who When she listens to this, she'll probably know it's her but she's doing about two weeks and she lost her baby at full term had a heartbeat and She was pushing and it just wasn't happening and then the baby started to go in a little bit of distress So they took the baby, you know, they took her to the operating room did a c-section and he was never able to be revived and Now she's two weeks away from her
01:08:37
Speaker
her rainbow baby on the c-section and she's like Desiree like I and it's not gonna be okay until I have a baby in my hands crying and I said I don't blame you at all and I don't know you know I don't know what to say I just said like maybe make a little countdown you know keep your mind busy every day
01:08:57
Speaker
But there's, you know, I don't really know. There's nothing I can say anyway to make it better. But yeah, would have really traumatizing experience that pregnancy after loss for families. I was in shell shock with that for a while, like after he was born. I heard him cry, obviously very happy and all that. But like, it's so hard that you don't even understand like, did this baby really make it like it
01:09:21
Speaker
You spent so many weeks worrying that they weren't. And then finally, like, I didn't think he was going to make it either until he was there. Then I was like, Oh, wow. He survived. And then you worry about, you know, other things, but I don't believe in general, but it's even worse as a lost mom, you know, helicopter mama over here, but can't blame us. Not at all. Not at all.
01:09:52
Speaker
Well, good luck to your friend. I'm excited. I'm sure it's hard for anyone to be excited. I hate watching people be pregnant anymore, but I'm like, I'm excited. But I'm also like, oh, until the baby's out.
01:10:04
Speaker
But you know what I tell her, I'm like, somebody has, I tell families like I'm going to be the cheerleader. I'm the positive one. If you want the optimist, here I am. I am very optimistic because in my heart of hearts, like I just obviously I don't know, but I know, but I just feel like this is going to be okay. But anyway, I'm here for the cheerleader. I'll be the cheerleader. You got this girl one more day. It is. Well, for me it was hour by hour, I feel like with the pregnancy, but
01:10:34
Speaker
Yeah, I definitely I would try really hard to like envision him being born like I had even on Pinterest a board of pictures of little boys with their moms and things that just made me how I was like, it's gonna be us. Oh my god. Yeah, until he was here, that was really hard to even believe.
Mental Health and Tailored Care
01:10:55
Speaker
Yeah.
01:10:55
Speaker
So that's why we do what we do. And it's also necessary, you know, the, like I said, you're more at risk. So you do need better care. And one of the first steps actually for the clinic is to try to help you figure out what happened with the loss. If you don't have the full understanding of the cause so they can do better, you know, tailored care to that. Like it might be an issue that you're having. So yeah, you can feel in better hands in that situation too.
01:11:23
Speaker
which all helps with mental health as well, which is a big thing nowadays. So yeah, I definitely I supported, um, I remember one mom in particular and she was in her pregnancy after loss and
01:11:36
Speaker
she kept having decreased fetal movement. So she was scared to death. She just kept going back to the tree or triage. And they said, you know, we're going to give you some anxiety medication because you're coming here so much. Yeah. At the same time, like if she's not feeling fetal movement, you know, she's got to come in. So it's no, that's okay. We need a rainbow. Yeah, that's yeah. It's really give them the training. At least it's free right now.
01:12:05
Speaker
I can take the training. That's not how you want to treat a patient. No. Well,
Conclusion and Listener Engagement
01:12:14
Speaker
thank you. Thank you, Anna so much for everything you've shared and everything you're doing for the loss community. And thank you for sharing.
01:12:24
Speaker
your story about one with us. You can follow her on Instagram at stillmyson to find the latest information on opportunities for you to be an advocate as well as see her and her sweet family. If you want to send some love to Anna, email us at storytellerattheblindsided.com. Thank you for listening. We will see you next episode.
01:12:43
Speaker
Thank you so much for tuning into the latest episode of the Blindsided podcast. We truly appreciate your support and time you spent with us. If you have a personal story you'd like to share on the show, don't hesitate to reach out to us. You can send us an email at Nicole with the blindsided.com or Desiree at the blindsided.com.
01:13:02
Speaker
For more episodes, make sure to follow on your favorite podcast app. Just search the blindsided podcast and hit that follow button. You can also connect with us on social media too. You can find us on Facebook and Instagram at the blindsided podcast. We love engaging with our listeners and hearing your thoughts on each episode.
01:13:19
Speaker
And before you go, consider leaving a rating and review for our show. Your feedback helps us reach more listeners who might find value in the stories and discussions we share. Once again, thank you for listening and being a part of the Blindsided community.