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Ep. 6 - You're So Gay, You Probably Think This Show Is About You w/ Matt Robbie
137 Plays4 years ago
This week, we were #blessed to speak with our former dormmate, Liberty University Spiritual Life Director (SLD), and gay conversion therapy defector, Matt Robbie! Matt shares his unique perspective on growing up in conservative evangelicalism as young man coming to grips with his sexuality. He relates his experiences dealing with family members' expectations, navigating the entrapment mechanisms at a Christian college, reckoning with internalized homophobia, and learning to love himself and his community. So much of the conversation about Christianity and the LGBTQIA+ community is engulfed by theoretical or theological debates. Hearing how these beliefs, policies, and institutions affect real people is eye-opening and impactful. We hope you enjoy this episode, because we certainly did!
If you or someone you know is a young person in crisis, or contemplating self-harm, the Trevor Project is here to help. Their trained counselors have been helping lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, and questioning youth since 1998. You can find more information at www.thetrevorproject.org
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Transcript
Elementary School Memories and Bullying
00:00:00
Speaker
And so that was the end of our elementary school. I was bullied, like I cried every day. Oh God, that's terrible. What kind of bully? Well, because I was a little baby gay and I didn't know it yet. And kids pick up on that.
Introduction of Matt Robbie and Changing Perspectives
00:00:35
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Growing Up Christian. I'm Casey. And I'm Sam. And today we're joined by a friend from college that neither of us haven't spoken to in a long time. Matt Robbie, how you doing, Matt? I'm good. How are you guys doing? Thanks for having me.
00:00:51
Speaker
Yeah, no, we're good, man. This is super great. I couldn't be more excited to have you. You're one of the people that first popped into my mind when we started doing this simply because I know you've, anyone who's changed a lot since college when you go to one of the most conservative evangelical colleges in the world is kind of an, it becomes an interesting person immediately to me as we've all done a lot. We've done a lot of rethinking since then. And it's hard to even look back on those times as like,
00:01:21
Speaker
We're just not the same people like even the like the Matt Robbie I was friends with is there's similarities, but there's not the same Matt Robbie so I'm really yes and no, I mean I Fundamentally I am but like my mind is also opened and I'm not I Guess I'll save it for the prompts, but I'm not as brainwashed as I was yeah
00:01:46
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. So I think that's a, so first things first.
Questioning Religion and Personal Beliefs
00:01:52
Speaker
Yes. Are you, are, do you still consider yourself a Christian or are you out? I don't know. Um,
00:02:01
Speaker
I think generally the idea of organized religion is meant to oppress, and specifically it's meant to oppress people without power or people who are not straight white men. And you can look at almost any religion, and that's the same across the board. So I still maintain faith, but it's not the same as religion.
00:02:29
Speaker
I don't really know, I was, oh shit, it was recently I had to identify my religion for something and I was just like, I don't know how to choose my religion. I think I was filling out some document for, not for work, I don't even know. I was gonna say, you can report that employer if you want. No, I don't know, it had to do, oh God, anyway, cut that part out.
00:02:58
Speaker
Don't worry about it. Yeah, I feel that, man. I feel like I'm off in the same boat. I mean, I still function within a church setting, but it's certainly in a slightly different dynamic than it was previously, but that feeling I resonate with a good bit.
00:03:21
Speaker
I'm slowly pulling Sam out of there like a tractor beam. This is his missionary work. My outreach program trying to pull me out.
Religious Upbringing and Educational Choices
00:03:36
Speaker
Okay, I want to get the backdrop on your life, and this is something I don't even think I even, if I knew it before, I don't anymore. It was memorable. Your backdrop, like where'd you grow up? Let's start with that. Okay. I mean, I don't think there's anything significant about the way I grew up. I mean, I grew up in
00:04:00
Speaker
in a family in Jersey. We grew up Catholic for a while. And then my dad found Jesus. And we started going to a Calvary Chapel, which is basically like a network of churches that started in California after like, in the 80s, when like all the
00:04:26
Speaker
Stoners got saved. Yeah Jesus movement is that yeah, it's all like around the same time and yeah, so we started going to Calvary Chapel in Jersey and was probably mid elementary school and I mean I would say that we were never like
00:04:46
Speaker
We went on Sundays, sometimes we would do like Wednesdays, and sometimes I would go to youth group and I don't even remember what day that was, but never quite fit in.
Middle School Bullying and Identity Struggles
00:04:55
Speaker
I always just kind of felt like, wow, these people are like super into it. And they really- Oh, that would've been me. Yeah. And well, I know when I was listening to your first podcast, I'm like, oh, he was one of them.
00:05:09
Speaker
Yeah, I was one of the ones that would have been off-puttingly super into it and I was just like I don't quite fit in because I Don't know. I just didn't I mean, I loved the people and I tried to fit in and Outside of church I fit in with them but like in church is just like I don't know. There's never quite that connection But I enjoyed it I
00:05:34
Speaker
Like I enjoyed it when I was there. I didn't like crave it outside of that atmosphere. Okay. But I went to public school and I was bullied in fifth grade. And so that was the end of our elementary school. I was bullied, like I cried every day. Oh God, that's terrible. Yeah. I mean, what kind of bully? Well, because I was a little baby gay and I didn't know it yet.
00:06:02
Speaker
And kids pick up on that shit. And yeah, you know, it just like little things. And then I would cry because I was sensitive and then that would make it worse. So which is actually super interesting. So I was just walking from Trader Joe's like an hour ago and this clearly not right guy was like dropping that F word all over the place. Like you're such an and I was just like, where were you coming from? And he was just like, God, I guess because I'm wearing like
00:06:30
Speaker
gay looking sweatpants, I don't even know. And so what you said this is still fifth grade? No, no, this is an hour ago. But no, I got my truck. But yes, fifth grade was bullied. Most of the kids in my elementary school went to one middle school. I was part of a small group that just geographically based like went to a different middle school and did have to see them for middle school, but knew that for high school, we would all be back together.
Navigating High School and College Decisions
00:06:54
Speaker
And I didn't want that because I didn't want to be bullied again. If that was going to happen, I wasn't sure. Yeah.
00:06:59
Speaker
So I begged my parents to send me to a Christian school because there was a Christian school that we knew of that friends from our church had gone to. So I begged to go and they let me and I like it was fine. It wasn't.
00:07:17
Speaker
like an out of body experience. But like, I guess it was a fine school. I mean, it was like shitty academics. But shocking. Yeah. You know how Jerry says if it's Christian, it ought to be better. Well,
00:07:34
Speaker
So yeah, it wasn't better. And then naturally, like when college time came around, you know, I was getting a lot of literature in the mail from Christian schools. And my mom was the one trying to talk me into going to like Jersey universities. And like, she wanted me to go to Ramapo really badly and Rowan and like, maybe Rutgers.
00:07:54
Speaker
Did she just want you staying like local? Maybe but she's like these are good schools and at that time I knew I wanted to be a teacher and so I like didn't even look at them. I just looked at Christian schools on like the East Coast and for some reason I just had it in my head that I wanted to go to Liberty and because they had
00:08:18
Speaker
at the time, they had one of the best education programs for any Christian school in the area. Oh, yeah, that's right. I forgot that they actually did have I remember hearing that while I was there, that it was actually a, like a pretty good education program. It was and they, you know, they got us in a classroom right away. And it was that was really important, because that's where you learn. Yeah, you don't learn in like a college classroom, you learn in an actual classroom with children. So anyway, I
00:08:44
Speaker
I went to Liberty. That was the only school I fully applied to. I started applications at Messiah. Oh, yeah. And I probably should go there. Yeah, exactly. But I also chose Liberty because it was far and I wouldn't be tempted to come home every weekend. Oh, yeah. That was why I left the school that I started at was because I was like, man,
00:09:11
Speaker
I obviously can't handle the temptation of just being able to like drive back to my bubble every weekend. And yeah, that's a super big temptation, but like also you don't grow up that way. Yeah. So I grew up going to Liberty. I mean, I learned a lot. And I was involved in student leadership on the dorms and spiritual leadership. You were my spiritual life director there.
00:09:40
Speaker
Yes, I was. I did that for two years and I don't know why I did it. So you didn't have to do Christian service, right? I don't even remember that. I signed up for prayer leader because I didn't have to do like your community service, which they called the Christian service. I remember when I told... What a joke that was. And I told our RA, Brenton, that I remember him getting so mad at me. He's like, why would you tell me that?
00:10:08
Speaker
Because if you think anyone in this hall is taking the occupation of prayer leaders seriously, you are delusional.
Identity and Reputation at Liberty University
00:10:18
Speaker
Everyone's doing it because I don't want to go rake leaves for 20 hours. This is easier.
00:10:27
Speaker
don't regret going to Liberty totally. Now that I look back, I'm like, what the fuck? Yeah. But at the time I learned a lot. And I think I mostly learned who I wasn't. And that's really important. So on like dating profiles, you know, they often well, maybe you guys don't know because you're not on them. But and we got married like good little Christian boys. Oh, my 21 years old.
00:10:55
Speaker
My marriage certificate came with my diploma.
00:11:00
Speaker
But on those, you have to put your college. And for a long time, I had Liberty on there. The messages I would get of people saying, of guys saying, whoa, you went to Liberty. I can't believe that. How could you do that? What was it like? And I was just like, no, I don't want to have these conversations. Not our first meeting kind of conversation. And so I don't have it on anything. And just because not that I'm embarrassed, but it doesn't represent who I am.
00:11:29
Speaker
Not that it's the same, not trying to make some false equivalencies here, but I just remember, even having to put it on job applications, you're just like, I just don't want to have this conversation. You got a master's, right? Obviously, because you're in education, I think. No, I didn't. I only did master's. Okay. I didn't know if you had to. Same here. I can't remove myself from it at all, so I've just been so dependent on work experience to
00:11:56
Speaker
offset my college experience. And I don't know, I guess it's finally there.
Career Path in Education and Economic Challenges
00:12:00
Speaker
But because I have a regular person job, but it's I'm glad I didn't do that. Because when I was graduating in 2010, that was during the recession and you couldn't get a teaching job. I my first year out of college, I wasn't even teaching. I was subbing and working at like American Eagle. Oh, yeah. And like,
00:12:21
Speaker
So, and they actually would, they told us, I think our, the Dean of Education was like, we actually recommend that you don't get your master's right now because schools don't want to have to pay you more for having a master's. Oh yeah.
00:12:34
Speaker
So I didn't get my masters at the time. And I was going to go back and get it a few years ago. And then I'm in a charter school right now. So I don't need a master's. And I actually am. I believe in unionization. I think it's a great thing. However, I don't love the UFT United Federation of Teachers. And that's the union for New York City public schools. OK.
00:12:58
Speaker
Oh, for people who don't know, I live in New York City. I live, I'm in Queens now, and I teach science in East Harlem, and that's a whole other subject. That's cool. But yeah, I don't need a master's right now, and I don't want to get one because I have no desire to go back to school. Yeah. I feel that. I know. I actually, I feel this like strong pull to go back to school, but I just don't have any. Nope. I don't have time, money's a little tiny.
00:13:27
Speaker
they would pay for me to go back and get my MBA and I just can't do it. I just don't, it's not the last thing I wanna spend my time on. Exactly, especially right now too. I mean, we're going through a pandemic and teaching has never been harder. I'm barely keeping my head above the water as it is. So put schoolwork, like my own schoolwork on top of that. Nope, that's not happening. Are you teaching remotely? Do you have to do that? Yes, and okay.
00:13:56
Speaker
complicated but our school did this whole thing where we were hybrid for the lower elementary up to second grade and I teach second grade. Okay. I teach second through fifth grade science. So we were hybrid and I was in two days a week for
00:14:12
Speaker
lower elementary and then the rest of my kids were all remote. But starting, we decided to be strictly virtual after Thanksgiving until we come back in the new year because of kids and families and staff members traveling and possibly spreading the virus. So we're like, you know what, that's a really bad idea. And
00:14:33
Speaker
Yeah. Dude, I would think that's a reasonable thing to do. Jill, her school just made a decision. Even though they're going to start giving the vaccine to teachers in February, they decide that pretty much right after Christmas break, everyone is going back to school. And they're going to do hybrid. Kids don't have to go back. But it's like, why do that? Three weeks from the day, you're going to send people back to the school. They're just going to start doing
00:15:01
Speaker
the vaccination. It's so insane. To make that decision right before it, especially after everyone travels for the holidays because people don't believe we're actually in a pandemic, it's so dumb.
00:15:15
Speaker
So yes, it's a lot of things. But we go back mid January, and we're gonna be hybrid. So I'll be in the building, actually three days a week, which I'm not thrilled about. But I do think that it is the best way to teach, you know, virtual teaching, remote teaching, it doesn't work. Yeah, we try our best. And it works for some kids, but there's so many kids who it doesn't work for. And it's just not right. And it
00:15:44
Speaker
you know, I want to be safe, I'm going to do the safe thing, but I also want the kids to learn. So we're trying to find like a happy medium. And it's, you know, it's all about compromise right now. Yeah. And it is what it is. But like, I just can't wait for that vaccine. Just like shoot me up. I know. Even when people ask me the question about which are you going to get it right when it comes out? And like the fact that you want to have this conversation with me means that we're not where we need to be as a society.
00:16:11
Speaker
Right. Dude, I don't want to derail things, but can I throw a headline at you guys? Yes.
Critique of Conservative Christian Figures
00:16:17
Speaker
I saw this on the way home. I'm like, this we got to talk about. Were you looking at it while driving? Yeah.
00:16:26
Speaker
Help me on podcasts. Okay, so here's the first paragraph. Actor Kirk Cameron is facing criticism organizing at least two events in Southern California in recent weeks where dozens of maskless people stood shoulder to shoulder to sing Christmas carols and protests of state and local stay at home mandates.
00:16:45
Speaker
Let me just mute this while I throw my phone. He is a crazy Christian. He's like one of those Christians who relies solely based off faith and like no actions. So my parents are very conservative and we have like
00:17:00
Speaker
We don't get along clearly on a lot of things. But that's one thing we do agree on. My dad, he runs a rehab ministry at his church. And he doesn't go to church because he goes, no, there are too many crazy Christians there who, yeah, they have to wear a mask for service. But outside of that, they're not wearing any masks. And they're like, oh, God will keep me safe. Yeah.
00:17:25
Speaker
And like Kirk is that he's that person. And I saw that I saw the TMZ video of it today and it looked ridiculous. He looks like he looks like a claymation character in a lot of ways. I like looking at his face. I'm like, am I watching a cartoon or a real life human being? There's something like that. He's got like this fake smile going. It feels like everything about him seems like too much. It's like his sister is not much better. They're both toxic.
00:17:55
Speaker
Yeah, it's wild. Where did Steven Baldwin go? Come on, let's bring back the good, the good old boys. You know, I think that the one thing that's that you have to consider with that stuff is like, it's pretty clear that if you want to be prominent within that, like very conservative, right wing Christian community, like you have to be political and loud.
Evangelical Christianity and Social Issues
00:18:18
Speaker
You know, asshole.
00:18:20
Speaker
Yeah, I didn't really care about telling people I was from Liberty until Junior started spouting off left and right. Yeah, I know. I mean, people around here didn't even really know. Most people that I came into contact with, I was like, I go into Liberty University, and they're like, oh, what's that? And now they're just like, now everyone knows. They're like, oh, yeah, is that the guy who liked to watch people fuck his wife? And it's like, yep, that place.
00:18:42
Speaker
But you know, back years ago, a lot of people knew who his father was because of his political activism as well. Oh, yeah. Apple doesn't fall far from the tree. They're both they they just want to be heard and wanted and want to be heard. And it's just like it. It's that that brand of Christianity. That's dangerous. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's super dangerous. I feel like that's one of the reasons like
00:19:10
Speaker
We even want to keep having these conversations and do this like, I mean, we try to keep it somewhat light, but we're also like, I don't know, that's what we grew up in. And I mean, I see the way that it affects a lot of people that I know from childhood. I'm glad to hear that you enjoyed your time at Liberty and that it wasn't like a negative experience.
Sexual Identity Challenges and Conversion Therapy
00:19:27
Speaker
Like, I guess at what point did you…
00:19:32
Speaker
Like, when did you kind of realize that you were gay? Oh, uh, middle school? Um, so- So you were living with that knowledge, like, while at liberty, surrounded by all that. So. Yes. Um.
00:19:50
Speaker
Yeah, it's like a really loaded question because you're also taught your entire life that who you are is wrong. And you're taught that you can pray it away. And Liberty is known for its conversion therapy.
00:20:08
Speaker
And it's like, it's a whole thing. Back in, I think it was high school, my dad like found porn in the history. I didn't like clear from history. And I got sloppy. And we've all been there, man. And so I was, he enrolled me in this like online conversion therapy. And
00:20:31
Speaker
They don't exist anymore, thank God. But they isn't toxic as fuck. And I mean, conversion therapy itself is toxic. And Liberty is known for like having a very toxic brand of conversion therapy. Dane Emmerich, I'm sure you remember him.
00:20:49
Speaker
He is not a great person. I'm on the record saying it, don't really care. So my second year as an SLD, there was a guy on our dorm. And so you guys, this was the year after I was on the dorm with you. And we hooked up. And he felt like super guilty and was just like, you know, really going through it. And, um,
00:21:17
Speaker
was involved with conversion therapy with Dane Emmerich and in the process outed me and but like told me that he was outing me and so I was like I'm gonna get ahead of this and so I went to Dane myself I was like listen so yeah this is something I'm struggling with and you're not gonna do anything about it because honestly I could have been kicked out of school for that
00:21:41
Speaker
Um, cause that's just how that was liberation. They put on people to just narc. I mean, not just with that, but with anything, this person was drinking. I was at a party and I might get caught. So it's like, it's literally like, uh, just you rat this person out and that person out and you'll stay and we'll just deal with them. Like it's really bad. That's something that like abusive people in that environment use.
00:22:07
Speaker
Like I had somebody that I was close to, you know, was dating someone at the time that was manipulative. And I remember him pulling that stunt, like they were gonna break up and he's like, well, you know, I've just been feeling really convicted about some of the things that happened with us. And so I think I really feel led to talk about it with whoever, you know? And it was just like this moment of panic, like are, am I gonna get penalized? Am I gonna get kicked out, you know?
00:22:35
Speaker
Yeah, but yeah, it's a thing. It's a real fear. I was terrified, but I went to him and I but I also went with such like fake confidence that I was safe. There was like never further conversation about it again. And yeah, they didn't require you to go to a group or anything. That wasn't a requirement if they knew, right? No, I mean, maybe it could have been, but I didn't even give that opportunity.
00:23:05
Speaker
So you like bluffed your way out. Yeah. And I don't really know how it worked, but you don't convert me. I'll convert you. I was just like, I'm struggling with it, but I'm dealing with it on my own. And like my dealing with it was like going back to the dorm and watching porn and jerking off. And I love this. This is so fun because everyone in the dorm was doing that almost every night, but no one ever would like.
00:23:32
Speaker
it would never come up it was like it's just like church you know like when pastors talk about it everyone just silently sits there rigid giving side eyes to everybody and you like why am i the only one you clap your hands and you don't move and like you're squeezing your hands so tight and then they're like looking at their wife like she doesn't suspect a thing yeah so it was like
00:23:58
Speaker
Yeah, anyway, so Liberty's got this reputation for a pretty terrible experience for gay people. Yeah, but they also have a ton of gay people. There were gay people on our dorm.
00:24:12
Speaker
I am friends with some of them now or one of them now one of them was actually I'm not gonna out him because that's not cool but like was involved in in student leadership on our dorm and but like I always knew it and then he like recently was like yeah actually it's true I'm like I know and yeah but he's I can't imagine having to keep that like
00:24:37
Speaker
on the D. Yeah, like because it's obviously it has to come up like it's not like I don't know. I feel like I imagine that it comes up from like at times or that you feel like you have to like dot like I never wanted to do things. It's like one you feel like you can hide it and you feel like you can just keep like keep doing what you need to do to
00:25:06
Speaker
pass. But also you feel like, I don't know, I genuinely felt that I would be able to control it eventually. But while you're at Liberty, you felt like you might not be like, even if you like were gay, just like not do gay things or whatever. So when I came out to my parents after college, it was a little mixed. But well, I mean, it was not mixed at all. They just weren't supportive.
00:25:35
Speaker
they recognize I was born that way. And that was progress, I guess. But my dad who is
00:25:43
Speaker
sober, he's an alcoholic, he relates his alcoholism to my homosexuality. Okay, and that they're both something that you can suppress. And like, technically, he's right. But that also leads to a terrible existence. Yeah, probably unhealthy. Like, it's like the difference it seems and obviously jump right in on this is like, you
00:26:06
Speaker
your alcoholism is a behavior that affects everybody around you negatively. Like if you had an insulated bubble like they're a lonely hermit assholes that just are alcoholics and they do that until their heart and liver give out like it but it's like
00:26:21
Speaker
The difference being like, you suppress alcoholism because it's better for your relationships and your mental health, as opposed to suppressing being gay is like damaging to your mental health and doesn't do anything for your relationships outside of the fact that your parents didn't support it. And that's like, because like, ultimately, it's I'm not hurting anyone.
00:26:39
Speaker
Yeah, so that's where it gets so frustrating because you hear Christians who reference and this is also where I'm torn and this is why partly why I'm torn when it comes to the whole am I a Christian kind of thing because
00:26:53
Speaker
you look at the Bible and the Bible says what it says, but it also, there are lots of schools of thought that believe that the Bible has been mistranslated, which is fair, I don't know. But I also know that it was a book written by men who are not perfect. So I don't want to offend anyone who believes the Bible to be true, but I also know that
00:27:22
Speaker
what is considered a sin almost everywhere in the Bible is an action that hurts somebody. And this is an action, not even an action, it's a way of being that doesn't hurt anybody. Like, if I'm getting hurt, it's because I want it. You know, it's not, it's not a, it's, it doesn't fall into the same category.
Church Authority and Biblical Interpretation
00:27:43
Speaker
So if you're a Christian, you're coming at me that it's a sin. And I'm just like, how, like, how am I hurting anyone?
00:27:51
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like those are the types of people who are, you know, their mindset has essentially become, they're the type of people who just wanted to be told by some sort of authority. The authority is given. It's not like that. It's not necessarily earned in most church settings. Like I could have gotten an MDiv from Liberty and been taught everything that Liberty wanted to teach me, like, and then been a pastor somewhere and they'd be like, he has good credentials. And those credentials only work as long as
00:28:20
Speaker
you know, your congregation likes what you say. Right. Because the second you say something different, you're lay people who don't have any education go, well, that's not sound biblical teaching, and then they find a new place and you're out of a job. So it's like, I don't know, I think it's funny when you look at
00:28:36
Speaker
like I could have done that and gone anywhere said anything and then but the people who are sitting under those people are the ones who just think they want to be told um and they they just go to think I I want to be a little bit more generous but like it it seems often that like um
00:28:56
Speaker
they want their beliefs that make them comfortable reinforced. Absolutely. So when they, that's kind of their reasoning for thinking it's wrong. And it's funny, like when you mentioned the Bible, like in the, I mean, and that there's different ways to take it. And they're, I mean, sure, there definitely are. And it's funny because I've heard all the theological like reasoning for why the Bible doesn't mean this or means that and whatever, but
00:29:24
Speaker
For me, the most freeing thing was like, it's just, I'm like, you can do all that. But for me, it's like, yeah, Paul probably would have been like, it's not okay to be gay. And I can sit here in 2020 and say, that's cool. Paul was just wrong. Like, that's easy. I don't have a problem with that. And I think,
00:29:44
Speaker
But to most Christians, they're like, well, then you don't have Christianity and you don't have faith and everything's a disaster. Now it's a free for all grab bag. And they don't know what to do with that. Like their minds don't really wrap around that type of uncertainty or I mean, whatever. They just need it. It breaks a concrete foundation and they don't feel like there's much left after that.
00:30:05
Speaker
but also if you're looking at the Bible and you're believing the Bible to be true, then the only people in the Bible who are criticizing homosexuality are people who are not God. You have priests and you have, I don't know, people writing the Bible who are saying that it's wrong, but like Jesus is never quoted saying it's a sin. So,
00:30:32
Speaker
I if he didn't say it I I just and like this is also a thing where I don't even know how exactly I feel about the Bible and about Christianity and all of this but if if you're gonna sit there and tell me that who I am is wrong because a book that was written two thousand years ago says so well then screw you yeah you know what I keep thinking about as in regards to like what you're talking about with Liberty is like okay
00:31:02
Speaker
You name the environment. Is it summer camp? Is it a youth group retreat? Whatever. Liberty, prayer meeting, you name it. There was always an effort to create this environment where you were open and you were going to spill your guts and share all your problems.
00:31:21
Speaker
There's problems that everybody has That are not like it is not a safe space for you to talk about your sexual problems or anything like that like that's that's what people were saying uh, you know when Jerry juniors thing went public was like, you know, this is one of those they could you know evangelicals will forgive you for embezzling money from the church or from a lot of other things they will not forgive you for doing some sort of
00:31:49
Speaker
like what they perceive to be a weird sexual act. Yeah. And I always think like, I think everybody experienced it, but it's got to be, you know, nothing compared to what what you went through where you're like sitting in this circle of people being encouraged to like talk about what's bothering you and what you're struggling with and stuff and knowing that like, you really can't talk about
Support and Change within LGBTQ and Religious Communities
00:32:10
Speaker
What's really bothering you? Absolutely. Like, yeah, I mean, how many people on the dorm? I mean, I can't imagine the anxiety that that must have caused. Like, what if somebody found out that this is this is what I struggle with? Like, there's people on the dorm that would not be supportive. You know? Yeah, right. Yes, you're right. 100%. However, um,
00:32:36
Speaker
my roommate for the second semester that we were in the dorm together. I don't know if I like really should even namedrop on this podcast just because like I don't really have anyone's permission. But he was my SLD partner for that second semester. And he and I were really close. I was one of his groomsmen at his wedding. And I was even when I was, I had come to terms with who I was and I was out and I was proud.
00:33:01
Speaker
I still never told him because I just was scared because he went into the military and he is a badass and he's just like a good person. And I was scared that he would not like it, that he would not agree with me, that he wouldn't want to talk to me. But I think it was last pride.
00:33:25
Speaker
not this pride, but last pride, he was doing an outreach at his church and he was going out to pride to like join the celebration. And it was, he's like this, the church for so long has been bad to gays, to the LGBTQIA plus community. And he said, you know what, I'm going to go and I'm just going to show love. And he didn't go there to like preach and he didn't go there to like
00:33:54
Speaker
know, ministered everyone. But he went there because he wanted just to like, celebrate the community together. Because that's what that's what pride is about. It's about celebrating where you've come and being proud of who you are. Yeah. And so like, when we had that conversation, he's like, yeah, the church screwed up. And he's like, I'm trying to make it better. Because
00:34:16
Speaker
we're alienating so many people. And you know this, the church is going through a crisis over the past decade, decade and a half, where like, people are like, are fleeing the church. Because I'm sorry, you're not inclusive. Young people don't want that shit.
00:34:36
Speaker
Yeah, I know. It's crazy, man. Millennials are definitely, it's like, I mean, I know they get made fun of a lot and they have their issues, but it's like every generation will be marked by some sort of thing that you can stereotype us with when we're in our 50s. But it's not gonna be, at least it won't be like homophobia or racism, hopefully. I'm sure it'll be something else, but it's,
00:35:04
Speaker
Young it's weird. I even within evangelicalism young people like they a lot of them who were finding it and comfortable with it from a theological perspective are like They're out simply because the exclusivity and they've found a space and they're like to allow for things that have always been that they've always been told were wrong and it's like The church is very much
00:35:35
Speaker
It seems like the church over the past number of centuries, I mean, we have thousands of denominations and that's because every time one group of people goes, we think this a little bit different than you, then you're still like, oh, that's a deal breaker. And they start their own shit.
00:35:50
Speaker
What, Christians don't agree? Yeah. It's like people aren't doing that anymore. No one's going, this is a problem. I'm just going to start my own shit over here. They're going, the thing's fucked. I'm just out. And like, it's like this is a boiling point. And we've obviously been moving towards this point in church history for quite some time. And I don't know. What do you think? Do you think it'll do you think that any of the mass exodus is like a wake up call or do you think they're just going to fizzle out and die?
00:36:19
Speaker
I don't think it's ever gonna fizzle out and die. It's just, it's gonna evolve.
00:36:26
Speaker
Truthfully, I don't care. Sorry. But look, there are some groups that are getting it right. I think it was a few years ago, the Methodist Church actually what they split. Yes, because they they realized that, you know, actually, homosexuality is not a bad thing. You know what? We agree with this. And so they split because of that. And now they're two. I don't even know enough about it, nor do I care enough. But I know that that happened.
00:36:56
Speaker
Yeah. So, but you also have a pope now who is for same sex civil unions and you know, baby steps. But like, that's almost as good as a marriage. Yeah. But like, that's also progress. So I maybe, but like, I don't know. Yeah. I know. I mean, how can you really know about it? But I think God, Casey,
00:37:22
Speaker
I think that one of the fundamental problems that's happening right now and really plan itself out on live television is that there's a lot of people that look at Christianity, and they may not consciously do it, but they don't look at it as like – you name it, religion. They look at religion as not just like…
00:37:43
Speaker
How can I use this to be something better? What can I be using this as a tool or as a framework for my life? They look at it more as like, what can this do for me? Is this a way that I can protect my kids from the things that I think are bad? Is this a way that I can carve in stone my
00:38:06
Speaker
You know, ideas about this and that and the other and have scripture to back it up. Because I mean that's, if we're being honest, like you think about people and I know because I was one of them, I was very scared of you guys back in the day. What? You know, dude, I grew up like very homophobic crowd that I grew up with.
00:38:29
Speaker
Oh, I thought you were saying like me and Matt Robbie. I was like, on the dorms, man, you were scared of us? Oh, he's lumping himself in with you, Matt. You know, really what it was, it's homophobia that they assign some Bible verses to, right? It really comes down to like, I don't like gay people. They make me uncomfortable. Yeah. Oh, look, here's some ancient writings that back up the way I feel about
00:38:59
Speaker
And that's how it's always been like in the communities that I was with. It was like, thank God we got these verses because I really don't like them. And but I also found myself saying the same shit too. And I was like, I remember there's even a point where like, I was almost comfortable with my sexuality, but I still was like, you know what, I'm not down for gay marriage.
Leaving Church and Embracing Identity
00:39:21
Speaker
And like, you know what, let them be gay and but like, let them just not get married. And it was just like,
00:39:28
Speaker
I don't know, I allowed my environment to dictate who it was. I found myself, even after college, I still was going to church. I found in Acts 29 church, do you know Acts 29? Yeah, that was like, was that, that wasn't, what's his, who's the disgraced past? Mark Driscoll, was he an Acts 29 guy? Or was that different? Maybe. I don't know enough, I don't remember. It's also been,
00:40:00
Speaker
eight years since I've, I don't know, it's been a while. I haven't been in church in a long time. And after college, I found a great small church in Jersey that I was going to had lots of young people. I loved it.
00:40:15
Speaker
Then they had a it's called Jacob's Wells. It was actually a really cool church in New Brunswick. And then they had like a sister church and other acts when I church in Manhattan called Apostles. And they met in this old Episcopalian church. And it was like Sunday nights and it was great. And I would go with a bunch of people who are my age and then after we would go out to a bar and like that was super cool because like you would hang out with your friends at church. They would all go to the bar together. Yeah, like that's kind of I like that.
00:40:45
Speaker
Um, but then I remember when marriage equality was passed, um, that Sunday at church, the way, and like, I wasn't, I was mostly out, but like, I was out to people I loved and people I cared about and people I knew. Um, but like, I didn't wear a rainbow flag everywhere. Um, but when the pastors spoke on their like,
00:41:14
Speaker
I don't even know the words, the condemnation of same-sex marriage in church. I was just like, whoa, this is not the progressive church I thought it was. Dude, that is a bummer, man. That's like a wicked bummer to just think that it's one place. So whenever that was, it's, what was it? Five years ago. I think five years ago this past summer. So I haven't been to church since then. And I don't miss it. Yeah.
00:41:46
Speaker
I want to, I want to do a quick backtrack just to paint the picture a little better when you were in college. So when I was on the dorm, you, that was your, you were a year ahead of me, I think.
00:42:00
Speaker
if I remember correctly, but when we were on dorm 11 together, you obviously weren't, you weren't any form of out then. So it was definitely after I had, I had moved on from there. We didn't really stay, I mean, other than in passing, and maybe some like Facebook comments and messages, we didn't stay in touch much after I left the dorm. No, I mean, I don't think I really stayed in touch with most people. Yeah. So when did like,
00:42:26
Speaker
When did you start losing that feeling of maybe I can, this is something I can suppress at some point. When did you start kind of feeling more free to just be like, this is just fine. The way I am is just fine. That's a really hard question to answer, but let me try. Let me try. Because it wasn't, I didn't switch it. I didn't wake up and say, you know what, I'm gonna be gay. And it was more like,
00:42:55
Speaker
So after college, I had a girlfriend. And we dated, I don't know, not even a year. But we broke up when the summer of 2013, when I moved to New York from Jersey. And I did a reset. We broke up. I moved to New York. I slowly started going to gay bars.
00:43:25
Speaker
going on dates, meeting, hanging out with gay people, having gay friends, and then I, it was...
00:43:33
Speaker
going to drag shows. But it was like, I didn't love a lot about the gay community. I said I was I said I wasn't into drag queens. But that's really because I didn't love myself. So I I internalized I had internalized homophobia for a very long time. And that's so common. Yeah. Because especially in the Christian gay community, not on this thing. But like, you know, yeah, once you grew up in homes and stuff. Yeah.
00:44:01
Speaker
But it's so prevalent because you're taught. Think about it. How many times were we in convocation and whoever the hell was speaking found a way to talk about how gay was bad?
00:44:13
Speaker
I'm gonna be honest, you probably picked up on that more than I did. I was probably just like, yeah, I mean, it's in passing. Might as well just mention Democrats while you're at it. Exactly. It was like every week and I'm just constantly being told that, you know what, you need to do something different. You need to fix yourself or you're going to hell.
00:44:37
Speaker
fuck. It was just like, it was terrifying. And I mean, I've gone to lots of therapy since and I've had a therapist who's like, you have all this trauma that you haven't dealt with from college and you really need to work on this. I'm like, you don't understand you weren't there. When did you first realize like, like, when when did you first start to realize that
00:45:01
Speaker
What that you would internalized hope that you had internalized homophobia and that maybe therapy was a better a good option for you to help so I mean well no therapy was years later, but it was I had done the work on my own okay, and it was It was slow. I mean is probably
00:45:20
Speaker
even within the past like six, seven years, like since I moved to New York, it was it was a progression where I slowly got more comfortable and I was, you know what, as a white person, we've had to do a lot of uncomfortable work lately.
Addressing Privilege and Personal Evolution
00:45:36
Speaker
Yeah, especially well, in regards to racism, and inherent biases.
00:45:42
Speaker
And I work in East Harlem and all my students are black and brown. And so I really have to check my privilege and like check my white supremacy. And like, am I walking around with a white hood on? No, I'm not that kind of white supremacist, but like we all are as three white men, we have white supremacy issues at times and we have
00:46:09
Speaker
you know, just like grown up with this systemic racism in our country. And we've benefited from it. And we didn't maybe choose it. But like, we just complied. And not knowing always. My mom had a difficult conversation, difficult conversation with my mom. And she goes, You know, I didn't raise you to be racist. And I'm like, No, I know you didn't. Like, it just like,
00:46:34
Speaker
Anyway, I'm getting sidetracked. But I had to do that work when it came to addressing my internalized homophobia, where I was like, you know what? What I was taught is not who I am. What liberty taught me, what the church taught me, that doesn't reflect who I am and my values. And I am evolved.
00:46:56
Speaker
and especially like being a science teacher now. I've really had to like check a lot of shit that we learned because like, sorry, six days, are you sure?
Reconciling Science with Religious Teachings
00:47:06
Speaker
I know, I know, I was just gonna say, as a science teacher, you had to actually learn what evolution was after going to liberty. Yeah. Because we did not- Didn't they tell you about the water canopy? Oh my God, I forgot about that. I actually was just listening to something like a week ago and I'm like, oh my God, Chris just did believe in a water canopy, I forgot. Firmament, wasn't it the firmament?
00:47:25
Speaker
Oh my god, my brother in law, he had, he grew up similar, but he was like, what? I've never heard such a thing. I'm like, I mean, you know now and it's true. So I first told my dad that I was teaching science. He goes, So are you teaching factor fiction?
00:47:46
Speaker
Oh, no, we're not doing this. I think Jill has to teach like she did teach a special education. So I always make fun of her kids like I have science class. I was like, so what what day creation are you on? Like I like I'm so far past it. And I can't stop making jokes about creationism. I just don't like understand like,
00:48:06
Speaker
There's a lot of how you can really think that. I moved past that a long time ago because it doesn't make sense that rain comes from stars poking holes in the water canopy.
00:48:19
Speaker
Is that a real theory? Yeah, I mean, it was an ancient theory. It's not like a, it's not a, the idea of the Furman came from, it was just a, it was a way of explaining how rain happened before anyone knew anything. It was, it's an ancient, like, belief of like, just like, I don't know, let me come in this temple whore so that way my crops grow. Like, that, it's just an ancient way of thinking, so.
00:48:45
Speaker
I was like, where's he going with coming in front of the floor? What's in a while you toss out an analogy that is the best? I was like, did I hear him right? Yes.
00:49:01
Speaker
Dude, I had one of those conversations the other day with the family member at it. Because, okay, you can—we're in a part of Kansas called the Flint Hills and it's literally like giant hills made of Flint and I could walk out of my door, go like a hundred yards outside of my yard.
00:49:20
Speaker
and pick up like marine fossils. You can find them all over the place. Oh my god. Oh yeah. Yeah, just like layers and layers of shells and coral and stuff like that. You're probably like, ah, fuck me. I hate when I interrupt you. Go ahead. I was showing it to somebody the other day, and they're like,
00:49:42
Speaker
You know, I know the Bible's true, but yeah, it does make you wonder, doesn't it? I'm like, yeah, it really does. It's a hard spot to be in though. I mean, it's hard to...
00:49:59
Speaker
Think that's the whole problem with that that that strain of Christianity is that like it's all Predicated on the Bible is inerrant It's to be taken early and the minute you start to have issue with one thing like you've pulled the bottom brick out of the wall Yeah, it's a Jenga. Yeah, it's like What's weird is they don't realize how much they they're dodging just to keep their little like they like their thing together like They don't
00:50:28
Speaker
they don't take a lot of it that literally or seriously like they they can because they're looking at it from like it's like 21st century perspective but it's like come on like we women were property like what I for for most of the books of the Bible women were property like actually all of them I don't know why I said most literally every single one of them and
00:50:50
Speaker
We've moved past that. So why don't you just, I don't know, stop thinking some of these other things that we can't move past. And like, also stop telling me that Jonah was really in the belly of the wind. This comes up every... And stop telling me that, like, Noah had two of every species on the ark, every species, like, are you sure every species wouldn't have even identified every species yet? And we never will? Dinosaurs.
00:51:18
Speaker
they even had dinosaurs on it yep like don't don't go there please like you have to you have to be able to separate so that's like a whole christian problem where christians can't separate literature from
00:51:33
Speaker
from like I hadn't even know what's the other type of bible like I guess I can you call it that I don't know anyway but like you have to be able to say you know what this is a story and it's meant to teach a moral and just leave it at or I one of the um depending on which uh I don't know academic field you're looking at it's I mean I don't know that um
00:51:57
Speaker
that Liberty and their eschatology center are looking at things this way. But, I mean, there's a pretty substantial group of biblical academics that will look at even the story of Adam and Eve as, I mean, if you look at it as far as like
00:52:17
Speaker
God established these people, they messed up, they were banished from the garden. It really lines up super well with Israel going into the Promised Land and then messing up and being exiled. Like everything about it is really metaphorical while also
00:52:33
Speaker
kind of contradicting some of the other divine narratives of how human existence came to be like nothing about it is like original it's all just like falling from their national history and using the same themes as previously written origin stories like it's all myth for the purpose of telling a story about who you are
00:52:53
Speaker
how you got here and where you're going like and i don't understand why that's really like to me like that's the purpose of all the stories we've ever learned as a kid that's why people love the fucking chronicles of narnia or lord of the rings like you put yourself in these stories and you see how they apply to your life and you learn from them and the characters and eat with their flaws and with their the things that they're good at whatever it is and it's just like to me it's so mind-boggling that like
00:53:18
Speaker
transitioning into adulthood and I'm not trying to call these people children but like when you transition into adulthood you start you should be able to if you took I don't know
00:53:29
Speaker
And he, even if he took high school literature, like, and you, I mean, I didn't, I was homeschooled, so, well, I don't know. Fuck if I know anything about literature, but I have a friend who's a, who teaches middle school English and the way he talks about literature and the way he reads poems and the way he talks about them and reflects on them. And like, he's looking at it in ways that I'd never ever would have. And when he says the things he says about them,
00:53:56
Speaker
and thinks about the way he does. I'm like, that's beautiful. And it's changing him and it's changing his students. You hear how it changes his students' lives in the way that he just invests in them and uses these metaphors. And I'm like, that's so beautiful. And then we get to, I don't know, what I would consider to still be beautiful metaphor and story when you can separate the good from the bad. And then you watch an entire
00:54:22
Speaker
I don't know, what, 70%, 80% of the Christians just like absolutely ruin it to a point where it's almost unsalvageable. Matt, did you, like being a teacher and obviously interacting with parents and stuff, like, do parents ever hit you with that kind of stuff?
Balancing Scientific and Religious Education
00:54:40
Speaker
Like, do you have any evangelical parents that are like upset with what you're teaching? Thank God, no. Because also remember at the elementary level, it's super basic.
00:54:51
Speaker
And I'm not getting into like, we don't talk about evolution. And if kids ever have those types of questions, I'm like, well, most people believe. And then I'll but I'll also give that other point of view. I'll say, however, there are some people who don't believe that there are some people who think the earth is only 6000 years old, while most of us think it's millions of years old. And it's just like,
00:55:15
Speaker
I need to present them with both trains of thought because I feel like it's the ethical thing to do. While I don't believe in it, people do. And I'm not gonna be that person who is teaching children the opposite way that their parents want them to learn. But I also don't think that there are enough parents who think that way in our school community. Yeah, that's an interesting way to look at it.
00:55:43
Speaker
It's very gracious of you. But I also I don't want to have that issue. I because it's not important. I want the kids to learn how to basically like use a scientific method. And that doesn't mean that they need to learn in second grade what evolution is.
00:56:02
Speaker
Yeah, no, I'd actually rather tell my second graders, Hey, what are some ways we can think of to make sure that we're taking good care of our earth so that it's around when you're mine?
Climate Change and Religious Beliefs
00:56:12
Speaker
Well, that's not important. I remember like the last speech that Jerry gave before he died. It might have been the last one.
00:56:26
Speaker
He talked about how there was no sense in taking care of the earth because God was going to destroy it anyways. Oh my God. Do you guys remember that convocation? I wasn't there. My first year was after he died on his toilet.
00:56:43
Speaker
So I mean, for the longest time, I mean, well, because as a Christian, you're taught to say, oh, climate change is not a real thing. Like, but also why? Why is that an argument? Why are we why are Christians, I should say, so intent on saying that climate change is not real? Because what is the harm in saying that? Wow, humans are not always great. And sometimes we do shit that fucks up the earth, which is their premise. Their whole premise is that people aren't great. And that
00:57:12
Speaker
I should be able to say that. It's because liberals care about climate change, Matt. If you concede on that, then you've given into the liberal agenda and Q is going to be very disappointed in you. But like, maybe liberals are onto something. I think that this is a problem, though, that that is at the core of what's happening to the church right now, is that
00:57:39
Speaker
political leanings and faith have become so interwoven in that community. And like, it's these issues like that one in particular, whether they realize it or not, where their political leanings come into conflict with their faith. I see the people that I have the closest contact with, they choose political leanings every time. And then pretend their faith backs it up.
00:58:08
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's, you know, side with, you know, stick with your team, and justify it however you have to. But like, whenever they're in conflict, political leanings always seem to take precedent over their faith. Well, look at Jerry Jr. Look at Franklin Graham, like you have so many high
00:58:29
Speaker
or people high up in the church who are taking these political stances that contradict what they had been saying for years. I know.
00:58:40
Speaker
especially when like a whole character counts thing was like a big deal when Bill Clinton got a blowjob, but then they like, they watched this guy absolutely destroy the definition of the word integrity. And they're just like, he's a baby Christian. This guy gets a pass. It's like, I know. And it's like everyone can see through it and they're still pretending like they're, they have the moral high ground.
00:59:07
Speaker
It's like, it doesn't make sense. This whole idea of creating your own narrative, for me, I had this conversation with someone recently and it's a little bit of a, I don't know, maybe poorly fleshed out theory, but I'm going to say it anyway. It's like,
00:59:22
Speaker
I was taught from a very young age, six-day creationism. I remember that so distinctly. All the way up into high school, I was reading books about it and being told that. Other than that, I got the Bible. We would read the Bible. Yes, this stuff happened. Adam and Eve were real people. But there wasn't a huge emphasis on that. Those are blanket assumptions.
00:59:45
Speaker
And there was a lot of emphasis on Jesus. And even in middle school, maybe late middle school, early high school, I would read the Bible. And I would spend time reading about what Jesus said. And it's just like, oh, blessed are the meek, for they'll inherit the kingdom of heaven.
Compassion and Anti-Science Beliefs in Faith
01:00:02
Speaker
Everything was all about, I remember very distinctly thinking, Jesus really cared about the people who didn't have a lot. And that stuck with me. But the backdrop was always like,
01:00:13
Speaker
The Earth is this, like 6,000 years old. It was made in six days. And what I realized as an adult was like,
01:00:23
Speaker
I could believe anything because my baseline that I had been fed my entire life was just an anti-science perspective. The foundation that was built for me was when it was that, I was able to choose what I wanted to believe at all times without any real reason for it. And that's why I have such a huge problem with, I know you could say it's not necessarily for you and what you're doing with your students because it's not your job to
01:00:52
Speaker
necessarily teach something different than parents. But as a homeschooled kid, I have such a problem with the way I was brought up with that belief because that was one of the things that really held me back from growth was believing in something so strongly and them tying it to my faith so tightly that I couldn't
01:01:16
Speaker
You just have to resign to the fact that you can believe stuff that doesn't make any sense and that that's okay. That was just the foundation for me saying there was no climate change. I guess I have to vote Republican and I guess I need to live my life like this. A lot of it was just because I had this idea that I didn't have to listen to reason because the Bible just told me these things.
Accepting Uncertainty and Personal Growth
01:01:44
Speaker
I think reason sometimes is absent from it, but also to the opposite extent, we're constantly seeking answers. It's a human condition. We're constantly looking for answers and we need to have an explanation. As a scientist, yeah, I get it. We want to know why things are the way they are. However,
01:02:12
Speaker
Is it okay to sometimes just stop and say, I'm not totally sure how the earth was made or how the earth formed. And like, that's okay. I don't really know 100% what happened to the dinosaurs, but like, I know they're not here anymore. Like, why is it so hard for humans to just say, you know what, I don't know. And that's okay. Yeah.
01:02:40
Speaker
I feel like we're bagging on conservatives a lot. I think it's worth mentioning, too, that that's not a viewpoint or a practice that's strictly—
01:02:52
Speaker
You know, a conservative thing. I think, I think you see the same thing. Well, it's like you said, I mean, it's a human thing. Like we have a hard time dealing with things that are uncertain, things that are not black and white. And it's much more convenient to just tell yourself like, well, this is what it is. And that's how it is. And there's no reason to investigate it further. And anyone who contradicts this is attacking your belief system. So, you know, it's, it's fine to respond to them in a sharp way, you know,
01:03:21
Speaker
But I think one, I think being able to say we don't have the answers and that's okay has helped me kind of put into perspective where my faith lies now. Because I don't identify with a religion because like I said before, it's toxic, but
01:03:48
Speaker
I'm not totally sure where my faith is and I'm not totally sure what's going to happen when I die. But like also that's OK. Mm hmm.
01:03:57
Speaker
So, I mean, I'm not gonna stress. I'm going to continue to, you know what, just like try my hardest to be a good person and to help people who can't help themselves and to make sure that people are not taken advantage of and make sure that I don't harm others. And like, that's important to me. And that's what I think should be the goal for people, not just Christians, but for everyone.
01:04:24
Speaker
and like focus on that and also say we don't have the answers and that's an okay thing. And yeah, that's just like good enough. Yeah, I have one of the things I actually do want to, you know, because I mean, what Casey just mentioned is like, what it does feel like we're back on a certain group a lot. And I know it can be easy sometimes for us to maybe go there. But something to when I
Navigating Identity and Harmful Beliefs
01:04:54
Speaker
I think it's important to stress that I'm in general fairly neutral towards the types of things that some people believe. And I think what I'm trying to get at is when I'm talking about for me and what was frustrating for me looking back on being taught certain things was that
01:05:15
Speaker
When I look back on it or when I see the way that certain types of belief allow for people to make excuses for doing things that harm other people or do things that I as someone who still does find a way to, I don't know.
01:05:33
Speaker
salvage the the wreckage of Christianity in some way is like When I when I look at what I feel like I understand and see about what the intent of Jesus message was I get frustrated when I it seems often co-opted and certain beliefs are used as excuses to do do harm to other people and you know going even back to like what
01:05:58
Speaker
with you Matt and like and how difficult it was for you to just finally be yourself and admit to everyone who you are including your family like so much of that was just because the types of things we were given and the types of things a large group of people believe in it and it's like
01:06:18
Speaker
Those are the types of beliefs that end up hurting people. I think that's why I get frustrated about when I look at my life and see how one belief led to another or allowed me to think a certain way or act a certain way and make an excuse for it. That's the type of stuff that I feel like it's worth pushing back on, given the way that... It's almost like you feel like you need to reconcile for some of those things, you know? Yeah.
01:06:49
Speaker
I, if I could throw one more question at you, Matt. If, you know, you think back in like 2007, Matt, you know, for people who are in that time period of their lives, you know, people who might be gay or they're not quite comfortable with it yet, whatever it is, you know, they're in that Christian community. Do you think that this identity crisis that Christianity is going through right now
01:07:18
Speaker
is good for them or bad for them, and how so? Is it good or bad for the people going through these identity crises? Well, I just mean like if you're a young man or woman that thinks you might be gay,
01:07:37
Speaker
And you're living in this era of Christianity where it's pulled in so many different directions. Do you think that that is going to help those people move away from that community? Or do you think that it could be repressive to them? I'm not saying what I'm thinking very well.
01:07:59
Speaker
Um, that's, that's, uh, it's such a hard one to answer, um, because like everyone's experiences are different and then everyone responds to their, their experiences differently.
01:08:14
Speaker
Yeah, like traumas real. I mean, I know of people who I was friends with years ago who have chosen to live a heterosexual life while they have like homosexual inclinations. And I guess to put it mildly, and they decided, you know what, I'm going to find a way and you know, maybe that works for them. Cool.
01:08:39
Speaker
I couldn't do it and I wouldn't want to but like maybe you can but also that could also go back to like being on the spectrum of sexuality because it's not linear and it's you're not like oh you're straight and you're gay and that's it no there's like so much in between and like sexual fluidity is a real thing that we just don't
01:09:06
Speaker
There's so many different sexual orientations that we don't even name. So that's super complicated. But I think growing up in this current era of the church, I think, is it going to help them on their journey? I don't know.
01:09:26
Speaker
I think it's just it's so hard to know how someone's going to react because you can't predict someone's reaction. So, I mean, if you would have back in college, if you would have predicted that if I was struggling with homosexuality in college, would you have said, you know what, I think that's going to be gay or I think he's going to like figure out a way to kind of push it aside and like try to have a family. I mean, well, I'm going to have a family anyway. That's not the point. But try to live a heterosexual life.
01:09:55
Speaker
Yeah. So it's just like, who the hell knows? And I don't know if I'm even answering your question the way you well, maybe there's no answer. Well, and that's, I guess I don't, I, I
01:10:13
Speaker
I think that that whole sexuality is fluid concept is not quite sunk in for me yet to the point where I'm like, that's how I think of sexuality all the time. I have to actively check myself on those things. Not everything's binary and everybody fits into these two categories.
01:10:36
Speaker
I guess, is there resources out there that you know of for people who are struggling with that? Are there groups online and stuff for kids who are just trying to sort this stuff out for themselves? Shit, I mean, yeah. I wish I knew more. I know the Trevor Project is a great organization with lots of answers, and they have a crisis hotline that is so, so, so important.
01:11:04
Speaker
a member of the LGBTQ community, if you feel that you're going through something, if you need answers and you need someone to talk to, they have a crisis hotline that is 24 hours, I believe. And so you can always contact someone who will help you. It's more meant, I think, for someone who's in a dire situation, more suicidal. But I know that they have lots of literature that they can help you.
01:11:32
Speaker
Oh shit, I wish I, I mean, I'm sure a quick Google search will tell you more than I can tell you right now. According to Wikipedia. Oh, sorry. That's somebody trying to get out of the jam right there. I'm like Chromebook right now.
01:11:54
Speaker
It's a GOOGLE Chromebook. TrevorProject.org looks to be the website. Yeah, sure. But honestly, do a search and you'll find more answers that I can give right now because I didn't prepare for this.
01:12:12
Speaker
Well, I should ask you, is there any that you recommend? Because that's a hard question. I can get back to you, and you can include links in the description for this. How's that? Yeah. Yeah, let's do that. That'd be good. Perfect.
The Power of Sharing Experiences and Building Community
01:12:25
Speaker
Cool. Man, this is such a great talk. Yeah, this is super fun. When you, Sam, when you texted me about this, I was just like, so interestingly enough, earlier that week, I guess this was last week, you texted me. I don't remember what day it was. But just a few days earlier, I had someone else from like college from a few years earlier in college, who she's like selling Mary Kay now or something. And she messages me on Facebook. And she's like, Hey, you want to buy Mary Kay for Christmas? I'm gonna have a book.
01:12:53
Speaker
No. And then when you send me a message, I'm like, Oh my god, does he want me to buy something? I'm selling topperware now. And no, but when I read amazing, I yes, because I feel like my perspective is shared by a lot of people. And I think that it's so important that there are people who are
01:13:19
Speaker
coming to terms with who they are. And they need to know that what we're taught in the church is not the be all, end all. Those are not gonna be the answers for everyone. Maybe some people will find answers there, but Casey, seems like you didn't find answers there, and I know I didn't find answers there, or maybe we actually did find answers and they were not the answers that the church wanted us to find.
01:13:45
Speaker
Um, so it's just, it's like, there's so many layers. And when you sent me this text and you're like, you want to be on this? I'm like, Oh, absolutely. And I think it's important that you're having this podcast because you're also telling other people who are in other different walks of life that you know what, we all have this like shared trauma and it's okay to name it.
01:14:07
Speaker
And it's okay to say, you know what, we all went through this. And like, we're all coping because trauma is like how you cope with the traumatic experience. And like, Liberty was a pretty traumatic experience. And we're like, still like, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now if it wasn't traumatic.
01:14:25
Speaker
No. Dude, I love that the through line of anyone who was an evangelical, it's like grew up that way or found that at some point and then left it. Like people are still in it. I mean, yeah, there's still some people that I associate with who are in it that I can be friends with, but there is a level, like even having this conversation, it was so easy and interesting and fun and it's like this,
01:14:51
Speaker
It is that shared experience of having that and moving on. It feels like there's endless things to talk about. I had thought about messaging you for probably a couple of weeks before I did because I'm like, this is still new for us. And I'm like, okay, we've... I mean, we literally have only talked to... Not that all the episodes are out yet, but we've
01:15:15
Speaker
Casey and I, straight white men, we've talked to straight white men, we're like, that's just the people we know and that's why we're doing it, get this off the ground. I'm like, then I'm like trying to think of who I can message. I'm like, we're not, this can't stay the same. And I'm like, but then I start messaging people and I start typing it. I'm like, now I feel like an asshole. This just feels like tokenism and they're just gonna be mad at me for asking. I get all like super in my head about it. And I just was like, it took me so long to just finally message you. I'm really glad I did.
01:15:44
Speaker
I am glad to. But I mean, there are also tons of other people that might not even be in your circle that can hear of this podcast, hopefully, and can share their perspective because like, I know tons of people who grew up the way we did live very different lives now.
01:15:59
Speaker
I know. Honestly, I feel like the rate of people who stayed in it is wildly low. I mean, even with me and my siblings, it's like my parents made the very intentional decision to homeschool to keep us all in it and nobody is, no one. And all the kids we grew up in church with, so many of them are just like, nah, not really.
01:16:20
Speaker
And it's like there's a common theme here that this isn't didn't work out the way any of these like boomer evangelicals thought it would. And it's so worth examining. And I wish it was easier to have these types of conversations with, I don't know, like parents or other people who are still in it without feeling offensive to them. But yeah, higher than the divorce rate of Pensacola graduate.
01:16:46
Speaker
All right. Well, thanks for coming, Matt. We really appreciate it. And hopefully we get to talk to you again soon. Absolutely. Please keep me updated because this was fun. Yeah. We'll let you know when it comes out, man. Yeah. All right. All right. Thanks for listening, everyone. We'll catch you next time.