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Podcast Host Audition: Anti Heroes and Villainesses
18 Plays1 year ago
Welcome to our Podcast Host audition series!
This week, Savannah is joined by potential podcast host Cassandra to discuss anti heroes and villainesses in Hollywood.
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Transcript
Introduction and New Guest Host
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to the Female Dating Strategy Podcast, the meanest female-only podcast on the internet.
00:00:07
Speaker
I'm your host Savannah and I am without Ro this week, but I am joined by a very, very special guest.
00:00:14
Speaker
So I'm not sure if you all remember, but last year Ro and I put out a call for new podcast hosts because we felt that it was time for the podcast to get a bit of a fresh perspective.
00:00:25
Speaker
I mean, we've been doing this now for...
00:00:27
Speaker
is it almost four years now?
00:00:28
Speaker
Is it 2020?
00:00:29
Speaker
We launched my course yet.
00:00:30
Speaker
So we were both starting to feel like broken records.
00:00:34
Speaker
And we had a tremendous amount of applications from some seriously badass woman, who I think will be a great addition to the pod.
00:00:43
Speaker
But we are starting with our first guest host today, and I will be joined by Cassandra.
00:00:49
Speaker
Welcome to the pod, Cassandra.
00:00:51
Speaker
It's great to have you.
00:00:53
Speaker
Thank you for having me.
00:00:54
Speaker
So before we get into Cassandra's episode, which I really, really, really like when I was looking at all the applications, Cassandra, do you just want to tell us a bit about your FDS journey?
00:01:05
Speaker
So what brought you to FDS and, you know, why you applied to be one of the hosts?
00:01:11
Speaker
Well, a few years ago, I can't remember exactly what sort of nonsense was going on, but there was definitely some nonsense involving a man.
00:01:20
Speaker
And I texted one of my best friends.
00:01:23
Speaker
And instead of commiserating with me, she simply typed back,
00:01:26
Speaker
Female Dating Strategy Reddit.
00:01:28
Speaker
And so, of course, I looked it up and, you know, it was so mind blowing that all these things that I'd suspected over the years and ways that I felt like I was being lied to were confirmed.
00:01:41
Speaker
And there was a new vocabulary to discuss these things and tools to use.
00:01:46
Speaker
And it was just just the start of so many good things and being able to respond differently and be able to have, you know, the vocabulary to talk about things.
00:01:56
Speaker
properly.
00:01:57
Speaker
And, you know, so when the opportunity came to participate on a deeper level, and in a way that would deepen my understanding and my use of the tools, I couldn't help but throw my head in the ring.
00:02:09
Speaker
I want to say that's a typical origin story for most people from FDS.
00:02:13
Speaker
But I do have to say that your friend who introduced you is absolutely based.
00:02:17
Speaker
They are one of the best people I know.
00:02:20
Speaker
Queen, queen.
00:02:21
Speaker
And we have been through a lot together.
00:02:23
Speaker
Queen, I love it.
00:02:24
Speaker
I love it.
00:02:25
Speaker
Does she still peruse FDS stuff?
00:02:27
Speaker
I know FDS hasn't been as active on social media recently.
00:02:30
Speaker
I mean, we've both been on such a journey together, you know, from, you know, back in the day, like me escorting her into the courthouse to get a restraining order to... Oh, gosh.
00:02:41
Speaker
She's been happily married for several years now.
00:02:44
Speaker
So I don't think she has the same need for it as previously, but I think she still keeps her hand in it, so to speak.
00:02:52
Speaker
Nice.
00:02:53
Speaker
So thank you for telling us about your origin story, FDS origin story.
00:02:57
Speaker
I'm always keen to hear about those.
00:03:00
Speaker
So on to the main meat of the episode, so to speak.
00:03:04
Speaker
So what will we be discussing today, Cassandra?
00:03:08
Speaker
Cassandra?
Hollywood's Female Villains: Stereotypes and Reality
00:03:09
Speaker
Antiheroes and villainesses, what we can learn from them, and what Hollywood is afraid of.
00:03:16
Speaker
And this is actually something that has bothered me for a really, really long time.
00:03:21
Speaker
And it's one of the things that FTS has helped given me the tools to look at from different angles and figure out why it's bothered me for so long when I didn't always have the words to talk about why.
00:03:32
Speaker
Should I just jump into it?
00:03:35
Speaker
Yeah, let's get straight to it.
00:03:37
Speaker
Straight to it.
00:03:39
Speaker
So, Hollywood has a very strange relationship with female villains.
00:03:43
Speaker
Male villains tend to be ugly.
00:03:45
Speaker
Oh.
00:03:46
Speaker
Unattractive.
00:03:47
Speaker
Yes.
00:03:49
Speaker
Yes.
00:03:49
Speaker
You know, in a very, very strong contrast to the fuckable male lead.
00:03:54
Speaker
I mean, I'm...
00:03:57
Speaker
Okay, I mean, Pedro Pascal, but you know, there's been a couple.
00:04:02
Speaker
I'm thinking like maybe like Gaston from Beat and Beast, he was okay.
00:04:07
Speaker
I want to say Massimo from 365 Days, even though he wasn't officially a villain, but he was a villain to me.
00:04:12
Speaker
Like he was more than okay.
00:04:14
Speaker
So, but I see what you mean.
00:04:15
Speaker
I get it over a point.
00:04:16
Speaker
So I'm just going to caveat that.
00:04:17
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, not 100%, not 100%.
00:04:21
Speaker
But if you're thinking, you know, they're in the back room where they're doing their casting, and they're like, let's get the baddest bad guy.
00:04:27
Speaker
They're not like, oh, you know, you know, let's get someone that's really good looking.
00:04:32
Speaker
You know, they're like, let's get someone that makes your skin crawl.
00:04:35
Speaker
Yes, true, true.
00:04:37
Speaker
Whereas if you look at, you know, children's movies and there's the evil, you know, old lady and like gremlins or whatever, they just don't look at like that.
00:04:47
Speaker
Like they are attractive women being given evil lines.
00:04:51
Speaker
Well, they start off, I'm thinking of like Snow White, for example.
00:04:55
Speaker
She'll start off like the evil queen.
00:04:57
Speaker
She started off as a very attractive woman and then they just like made her ugly and old.
00:05:03
Speaker
Right.
00:05:04
Speaker
That's a perfect example of like, here is, you know, what looks like an ideal woman.
00:05:08
Speaker
And no, but no, she's evil.
00:05:11
Speaker
And that is very characteristic.
00:05:13
Speaker
Female villains tend to be successful, attractive women, you know, well-dressed, well-groomed, assertive, you know, the whole girl boss thing.
00:05:23
Speaker
And, you know, would otherwise be an aspirational figure.
00:05:27
Speaker
And this is being held up as a villain.
00:05:29
Speaker
Right.
00:05:29
Speaker
And this has been starting to be reclaimed recently, like, you know, especially Ursula, especially in the gay community is being reclaimed as, you know, as a John Codron character and not just a straight villain.
00:05:42
Speaker
And I think they did that with the witch from The Wizard of Oz and Maleficent.
00:05:48
Speaker
But that just, I think, just reinforces the idea that there's this long period of history in film where the female villainesses are strikingly attractive.
00:05:59
Speaker
and successful.
00:06:00
Speaker
And then they are used to present an example of what could have been a good woman if they'd had different priorities, you know, family, taking care of a man, you know, their art projects, their career, their cats.
00:06:13
Speaker
And so these women are being held up as an example of how a good woman can go wrong and what not to be.
00:06:19
Speaker
Don't prioritize yourself.
00:06:20
Speaker
Don't take time pleasing yourself with fashion and makeup.
00:06:25
Speaker
You know, reprioritize.
00:06:27
Speaker
Make it all about the man.
00:06:28
Speaker
And I don't know why there's such a thing about the cats.
00:06:31
Speaker
But, you know, enjoy your cats.
00:06:35
Speaker
What is it up with the familiars?
00:06:37
Speaker
I think that's where the script's got the insults from.
00:06:40
Speaker
Enjoy your cats.
00:06:43
Speaker
You know...
00:06:44
Speaker
Yeah, I would like to enjoy my cats.
00:06:46
Speaker
You know, why is it?
00:06:48
Speaker
Yeah, basically taking all these things that women enjoy and enjoy that don't involve a man and then throwing them back into your face like, oh, you know, you're too perfect.
00:06:57
Speaker
Or even on TikTok lately, there's this trend of approachable makeup versus unapproachable makeup.
00:07:03
Speaker
The approachable makeup always, to me, looks infantilizing.
00:07:07
Speaker
Yeah.
00:07:08
Speaker
Oh, gosh.
00:07:09
Speaker
It looks less self-possessed.
00:07:12
Speaker
It's always that, you know, very childish and the overwhelmed baby ingenue kind of look.
00:07:19
Speaker
And I don't think that's something that grown women should aspire to, even if they go for the cute aesthetic.
00:07:25
Speaker
I used to wonder why men hit on me slightly more when I was younger looking.
00:07:29
Speaker
And for a while, I thought maybe it's because they find that more attractive.
00:07:33
Speaker
But nowadays, I believe that men find vulnerability attractive.
00:07:37
Speaker
And they're looking for an easier target.
00:07:40
Speaker
And anyway.
00:07:44
Speaker
many possible, you know, side quests in this discussion, but I do feel like Hollywood has consistently and not subtly put forth this proposition that independent, successful women are the enemy.
00:08:01
Speaker
And, you know, this is one of the ways that people are indoctrinated into this patriarchal life plan of when you grow up, you don't look after your own interests.
00:08:13
Speaker
When you grow up, you look after a man's interests.
00:08:16
Speaker
A hundred percent.
00:08:17
Speaker
Yeah, really needs to be examined.
Media Narratives: Societal Views on Independent Women
00:08:21
Speaker
And not just because women tend to be primary caretakers, because we grew up with this media.
00:08:26
Speaker
And so it's been whispered in our ears so many times.
00:08:30
Speaker
Sometimes we forget that it's not something that we came to understand through natural means, but it's something that we've been deliberately taught over and over.
00:08:39
Speaker
And we will need to unteach ourselves if we are to act in our best interests.
00:08:44
Speaker
That sounds a bit grim, doesn't it?
00:08:45
Speaker
I do think like when I started really taking an FDS and applying the lessons and, you know, thinking about, you know, feminism more broadly as well, like radical feminism as well, when I think it was Andrea Dworkin who said that, you know, when you understand misogyny or something along those lines.
00:09:03
Speaker
that when you understand misogyny, you can't unsee it anywhere you go, and you sort of have this awakening.
00:09:09
Speaker
And you do see how mediums such as films especially, they push such bullshit patriarchal narratives.
00:09:18
Speaker
Like you said, the villainess, who is really beautiful, oftentimes as you get older, you find yourself sympathising with the villainess a bit more.
00:09:26
Speaker
Now, I don't know what that says about me.
00:09:28
Speaker
Oh, definitely.
00:09:29
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:30
Speaker
I don't know what that says about me as I become more jaded throughout life.
00:09:34
Speaker
Or if you actually sit back and think, actually, she has a point.
00:09:38
Speaker
You know, the quote that comes to mind is Cruella de Vil in 101 Dalmatians.
00:09:43
Speaker
She made an absolute zinger of a quote when she said that, you know, more women have been lost to marriage than, like, war, famine and disease.
00:09:51
Speaker
And she's absolutely right.
00:09:53
Speaker
But obviously they had to portray her, you know, in that villain context.
00:09:57
Speaker
in order for that quote to actually fly and, you know, for people to sort of dismiss what she's saying as, you know, being out of hand or she's being a bitch or whatever.
00:10:05
Speaker
But she's absolutely right about that.
00:10:08
Speaker
And I think that's probably one of like many examples where, you know, if a woman sets a standard, I'm thinking about the parent trap, for example.
00:10:17
Speaker
I mean, looking back, she was basically trying to get the dad to control his daughters, right?
00:10:23
Speaker
I'm not control, but to keep them in line and to get them to behave and
00:10:26
Speaker
you know, to basically set a behavioural standard to some degree.
00:10:30
Speaker
And she was just, again, portrayed as like the ditzy, evil stepmum, even though the situation that she was walking into, like being a step parent, especially as a mum, is really difficult.
00:10:40
Speaker
And the expectations, especially for stepmothers, is a lot higher than for stepfathers.
00:10:45
Speaker
Just go and browse the step parents subreddit, if you don't believe me, and you'll see that 99.999% of the horror stories are from women who are expected, you know, to basically step into this really, really difficult role that often comes with really complex family dynamics.
00:11:02
Speaker
But obviously when you're a child, you don't really understand misogyny and feminism and that.
00:11:06
Speaker
So you just see this stepmum as the evil stepmother.
00:11:09
Speaker
But looking back when I watched it again, and I thought, actually, she was given a raw deal.
00:11:13
Speaker
Also, not to mention the fact that, you know, her husband was still pining for his ex-wife.
00:11:18
Speaker
Yeah, and another one that I really, you know, look up to is in The Devil Wears Prada, the Glenn Close character, you know, very successful, very clear boundaries, very clear standards, never raises her voice, and yet has absolute authority over everyone.
00:11:35
Speaker
So if this was a male character, this would be 100% recognized as an aspirational character.
00:11:42
Speaker
But because it's a woman, these things are all portrayed as negatives.
00:11:46
Speaker
And, you know, like women don't have enough problems in the workforce already without being told that having normal boundaries, having very clear expectations and not wasting time in arguments or pissing contests, being told that that is the absolute worst kind of woman to be is super detrimental.
00:12:08
Speaker
And of course, these characters often get their comeuppance and it always has to be in a weird kind of sexual way.
00:12:14
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:15
Speaker
You know, whether it's the pie in the face or the falling down and their skirt goes up, you know, it's always a little unnecessary and not a way that male villains get treated.
00:12:26
Speaker
They not only have to have a comeuppance, they have to have a sexually demeaning comeuppance.
00:12:32
Speaker
Which is totally par for the level of sexual degradation that Hollywood likes to impose on beautiful female characters.
00:12:41
Speaker
You know, even, I guess they're not quite villains, but like a low-level villain, like a horror movie, slasher movie.
00:12:46
Speaker
You've got the beautiful, obnoxious sorority girls, and then they just get killed in, you know, the dumbest ways imaginable.
00:12:53
Speaker
But it's so sexually charged and...
00:12:56
Speaker
you know, if they get raped, it's just so gratuitous.
00:13:00
Speaker
It's something that I call, because I also work in film, like, they make the rape scenes wankable.
00:13:05
Speaker
There's no other way to view it is that these scenes are designed not to be upsetting and create empathy and unity against evil.
00:13:16
Speaker
These scenes are designed so that a guy can have the vicarious ultimate power trap, you know, with his dick in his hand.
00:13:24
Speaker
if you look at the very concept of
00:13:27
Speaker
You know, even terms, I absolutely despise this term, but even terms like hate fucking, for example, you see that present in things like Hollywood.
00:13:36
Speaker
And I remember reading that in like Kill Bill, I think it was Uma Thurman's character.
00:13:42
Speaker
There's a scene in like one of the films, I can't remember which exactly, but she's basically being strangled by a male character.
00:13:50
Speaker
And what I found really quite disturbing was that it was Quentin Tarantino's hand that was strangling her during that.
00:13:58
Speaker
I have issues with that man.
00:13:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:14:00
Speaker
Yeah, he has a very obvious fetish for seeing the worst things happen to beautiful women.
00:14:05
Speaker
Yeah, and it's very, it's almost like bizarre, but not surprising.
00:14:10
Speaker
Acceptable it is, and like normalized it is, like basically sexual violence against women.
00:14:15
Speaker
Even things like Game of Thrones, for example, like the rape scenes in that was just awful.
00:14:20
Speaker
Right.
00:14:21
Speaker
And it's doing is setting expectations for generations of men on how a power dynamic should be and what standards they can be enforcing upon women, even though the only reason for these standards is their own personal sexual gratification and not like making the world a better place.
00:14:44
Speaker
I know we've spoken about pretty privilege.
00:14:46
Speaker
There's been a lot of discussions around pretty privilege that we've had here at FDS and in the wider, you know, like Twitterverse, as I like to call it.
00:14:54
Speaker
But one of the key differences between pretty privilege and quotation marks
00:15:00
Speaker
between like men and women is that if a woman is deemed to be conventionally attractive or deemed to be conventionally beautiful, then it almost seems like people are looking for a way to detract from that beauty.
00:15:11
Speaker
So they'll say, but she's stupid.
00:15:13
Speaker
She's promiscuous.
00:15:14
Speaker
She's evil.
00:15:15
Speaker
You know, she's a villain.
00:15:16
Speaker
they'll pick her apart for something, right?
00:15:18
Speaker
But when you see a conventionally attractive man, you don't automatically think, oh, like he's a bad person or he's stupid or he like shagged his way, you know, throughout his career.
00:15:29
Speaker
And that is almost like where the pretty privilege for women, it becomes a burden because it's almost like women, you know, can't be deemed to be conventionally attractive or successful without somebody trying to detract from her.
00:15:43
Speaker
in some kind of way.
00:15:44
Speaker
And, you know, that sort of, you know, level of detraction and attack, it doesn't happen when men are deemed to be conventionally attractive.
00:15:53
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:15:54
Speaker
So, I mean, you mentioned you work in the film industry, Cassandra.
00:15:58
Speaker
Are there any other sort of, I guess,
Intimacy Coordinators in Film: Ensuring Safety and Consent
00:16:01
Speaker
scrote observations that you have in that industry?
00:16:05
Speaker
I'm sure there's many, but... Oh my gosh.
00:16:07
Speaker
We've got enough time.
00:16:08
Speaker
We've got time today.
00:16:09
Speaker
We've got time today.
00:16:10
Speaker
Yeah.
00:16:11
Speaker
Okay, okay.
00:16:12
Speaker
Well, you know, we've been catching wind of the whole intimacy coordinator discussion.
00:16:18
Speaker
Yeah, tell me about that.
00:16:19
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:16:20
Speaker
Tell me about that.
00:16:22
Speaker
Oh, my God.
00:16:23
Speaker
I guess it's not shocking that they're not ashamed to say this publicly.
00:16:27
Speaker
But guys who are like, saying, Oh, you don't have to worry about, you know, that guy in our friend group, who's a known rapist, he's never tried to rape me.
00:16:36
Speaker
And all these guys are like,
00:16:37
Speaker
Yeah, I'm not in the, you know, category of people that are typically, you know, victimized on set.
00:16:44
Speaker
So I don't have a problem with it keeping on, you know, that's great.
00:16:48
Speaker
In fact, I like to do the victimizing myself.
00:16:51
Speaker
So please don't hire someone to stop me.
00:16:53
Speaker
I'm like, really?
00:16:54
Speaker
Did you just say that out loud?
00:16:57
Speaker
So that's been an awesome thing going on to, you know, have to repeatedly have those conversations.
00:17:04
Speaker
I mean, what is the role of intimacy coordinating?
00:17:06
Speaker
Because this is the first time I'm hearing of it.
00:17:09
Speaker
Okay, so it's pretty broad.
00:17:12
Speaker
And it's something that we're all learning about because it's newer on the scene.
00:17:16
Speaker
So it's half like HR.
00:17:18
Speaker
So it's not just for love scenes, or sex scenes, you know, it's also for any situation where people feel vulnerable.
00:17:28
Speaker
They're being yelled at, they're being hit, they're being tied up in a coffin because they're working for Quentin Tarantino or being strangled by Quentin Tarantino.
00:17:37
Speaker
But you need somebody to go to who isn't the person signing your paycheck and be able to say, I need boundaries.
00:17:44
Speaker
So sometimes they can be helping people figure out the vocabulary to do a sex scene without it getting too weird.
00:17:51
Speaker
Or there's things where if you are acting out a panic attack, doing the things,
00:17:59
Speaker
breathing the same way, you can physiologically induce a panic attack.
00:18:03
Speaker
And now you're super vulnerable while you're also on the clock, you know, with 20 people around you, you know, waiting for you to do the next take, but you're not in a great position to advocate for yourself.
00:18:14
Speaker
And also when you're in a love scene, you're not in a great position to advocate for yourself.
00:18:18
Speaker
If you have a problem, you're holding up everybody on set stay.
00:18:22
Speaker
And you might want to think to yourself, well, I'll just let this guy hunt my leg for five minutes and get it over with.
00:18:28
Speaker
And then get re-traumatized every time that you get hired for this kind of scene.
00:18:32
Speaker
Or you could have someone help set some ground rules, help set down some, you know, appropriate vocabulary for talking about this.
00:18:40
Speaker
And someone that you can talk to that can't fire you.
00:18:43
Speaker
I mean, I am glad that they exist, but at the same time, it's also quite sad that they've had to introduce them almost because Hollywood has had such a problem with respecting, you know, the boundaries of actors, especially actresses as well, especially women.
00:19:02
Speaker
Well, and that's deliberate.
00:19:04
Speaker
A lot of guys get into acting because they're losers and they're like, oh, I'll finally get to kiss a girl.
00:19:09
Speaker
Maybe I'll even get to touch a girl and they can't stop me because it's in the script, you know?
00:19:14
Speaker
Is that what guys do it?
00:19:15
Speaker
Really?
00:19:15
Speaker
Oh my... And...
00:19:17
Speaker
I've heard that more than once from low-level actors who aren't good-looking enough or talented enough or charming enough to become lead men, but I have heard that more than once on set from extras.
00:19:28
Speaker
And then, you know, you get on a music video shoot where you got the girls dancing sexy, and they're like, woohoo, this is our chance to grab a handful of something.
00:19:37
Speaker
And you end up feeling very unsafe because...
00:19:42
Speaker
Oh my gosh.
00:19:43
Speaker
The film industry is very, very hostile to women in all kinds of ways, including the hours that are worked.
00:19:51
Speaker
Often you don't know when you're getting cut, and it's just not a career that someone who is a primary caretaker of children can sustain in most cases.
00:20:01
Speaker
And so what that means is that sets are total sausage fasts.
00:20:05
Speaker
Of course, yeah.
00:20:06
Speaker
And so you're surrounded by a bunch of men, and if it's a music video set, they're probably drunk men, and you have to decide, do you grit your teeth and get it over with, or do you not get paid for this day?
00:20:19
Speaker
And these shoots can go on for days or months sometimes.
00:20:23
Speaker
Right.
00:20:23
Speaker
And this is not a situation that people should have to go through any longer.
00:20:28
Speaker
I've been in that situation and I try to run my sets in a way that nobody has to be in the situations that I was in.
00:20:36
Speaker
But there's, yeah, there's a lot of shitty and unsafe situations you can find yourself in.
00:20:41
Speaker
And just off the back of that then, what are some of the ways in which you run your set to create that safe environment for women?
00:20:52
Speaker
Well, having female crew helps.
00:20:54
Speaker
Having an intimacy coordinator is a huge help because everybody's so busy.
00:21:00
Speaker
They've got their own roles.
00:21:01
Speaker
And, you know, if I'm doing 20 different things and trying to keep to a timeline so we don't go over a budget, you know, some extra is going to feel uncomfortable walking up and saying like, excuse me, let me disturb you and disrupt your workflow.
00:21:13
Speaker
But someone's out of hand.
00:21:15
Speaker
And so having an intimacy coordinator always there means that there's always someone to talk to that they feel safe talking to.
00:21:21
Speaker
Honestly, asking people if they're okay with things before you do them.
00:21:24
Speaker
Asking everyone, like, you know, are you okay being touched here?
00:21:28
Speaker
Are you okay if we do this?
00:21:29
Speaker
You know, simple, basic consent things that you do to normal human beings just because we're working and have a script doesn't mean we can't treat each other like decent human beings.
00:21:40
Speaker
And for a long time, you know, male directors, male actors, whatever, have been using this like, you know, oh, you know, we're making a movie as an excuse to touch whatever they feel like and to treat people like shit.
00:21:53
Speaker
And even Offset as well.
00:21:55
Speaker
I remember reading that Jamie Dornan, he was recently complaining about being stalked and I didn't have an ounce of sympathy.
00:22:01
Speaker
for him because he said a few years ago just quite casually that when he was preparing for a role he stalked a woman because he basically followed a woman home because role he was preparing for was he was basically playing the role of a stalker and i just think in like it's almost like when they use the method acting you could have just read a book dude you could have just read a book you could have i don't know yeah don't work with method actors
00:22:29
Speaker
Is that the number one advice?
00:22:31
Speaker
Don't work with method actors ever.
00:22:33
Speaker
And don't hire people that take liberties and ruthlessly fire people who do.
00:22:39
Speaker
We had to fire multiple people in the last production and we had to ask every single person
00:22:46
Speaker
person, you know, are you okay with this person?
00:22:49
Speaker
Just like read down a whole list of names.
00:22:50
Speaker
Do you have any issues, any safety issues?
00:22:52
Speaker
And just read down the whole list for every single person on set.
00:22:55
Speaker
And it didn't take that long to do that.
00:22:58
Speaker
But, you know, if you look at these people that are hired over and over again, Kevin Spacey, trying to think who is a danger to women, but I'm sure there's, I'll think of a dozen after we're done with this.
00:23:09
Speaker
But nobody is so talented that you can overlook that.
00:23:13
Speaker
The fact that they are a groper, rapist, harasser, stalker, whatever.
00:23:17
Speaker
Nobody's that talented.
00:23:18
Speaker
There are millions of talented people out there.
00:23:21
Speaker
There are millions of good-looking people out there.
00:23:24
Speaker
You never need to work with the abuser.
00:23:26
Speaker
Ever.
00:23:27
Speaker
Nobody's that famous and that talented that there's not someone exactly like him except not abusive.
00:23:32
Speaker
That was something that really bothered me because like last time I was firing someone was like kind of right after the Kevin Spacey thing.
00:23:38
Speaker
And I was like, I know there's money involved and there's a timeline involved and there's a lot of people involved.
00:23:44
Speaker
But this conversation that I just had with someone that like, hey, we cannot have the liability on set that is you.
00:23:52
Speaker
You're the liability.
00:23:53
Speaker
Yes.
00:23:54
Speaker
Somebody could have had that conversation with Kevin Spacey like, you know, I know you're famous and talented and all that, but we cannot have the liability on set that is you.
00:24:04
Speaker
Sorry.
00:24:04
Speaker
Like that easy.
00:24:06
Speaker
I mean, I've not been involved in the film industry, but when I think like Hollywood, when they think of a liability, you know, they're not really thinking a rapist or a pedophile is a liability unless it's like an army.
00:24:19
Speaker
Like what's that guy
Unrealistic Romance in Films: A Call for Authenticity
00:24:20
Speaker
called?
00:24:20
Speaker
He was into BDSM army.
00:24:22
Speaker
Hammer, I want to say.
00:24:22
Speaker
Army Hammer.
00:24:24
Speaker
Unless that was like some epic shit show, like scandal.
00:24:29
Speaker
Because ultimately it doesn't affect men as much as it affects women.
00:24:33
Speaker
Exactly.
00:24:34
Speaker
That was my roundabout way of saying that.
00:24:35
Speaker
And if they were to get rid of every predator, every male predator in Hollywood, there would probably be nobody left.
00:24:42
Speaker
Well, there would be a lot of job openings for talented-looking people that know how to ask before they put their hand on your leg.
00:24:50
Speaker
And that sounds like a great thing to me.
00:24:52
Speaker
You know, this was a while ago, but there was a Japanese cannibal who killed an exchange student in Paris and filmed himself eating her, and it was super gross.
00:25:02
Speaker
And through kind of...
00:25:05
Speaker
loophole in the extradition things he ended up back in Japan as a free man and he got hired by porn companies to do a particular kind of degradation porn where he would fuck these women and then as soon as they were done fucking they'd be like oh hey you remember those headlines about that guy that killed a girl and ate her he was just inside you no and there were enough people paying for this to create a demand and
00:25:34
Speaker
And so same thing with these other workplaces, you're putting people in vulnerable positions with known predators and kind of getting off on it.
00:25:41
Speaker
Because otherwise, why would you do it?
00:25:42
Speaker
Why would it not make your skin crawl if you didn't enjoy it?
00:25:46
Speaker
I don't mean to sound conservative and prudish, but a lot of the sex scenes in recent, like Hollywood films that I've watched, I'm not really a massive film watcher anymore.
00:25:56
Speaker
I guess FDS is just ruined.
00:25:58
Speaker
It does, doesn't it?
00:26:01
Speaker
It really does.
00:26:01
Speaker
A lot of media for me.
00:26:03
Speaker
I just don't.
00:26:03
Speaker
And also, I just don't want to put money in, like, Hollywood's pocket if I can help it.
00:26:09
Speaker
Like, I rarely go to the cinema anymore.
00:26:11
Speaker
I went to see the latest Aquaman film purely to support Amber Heard.
00:26:15
Speaker
He was amazing in it, by the way.
00:26:17
Speaker
But...
00:26:19
Speaker
But yeah, I just feel like a lot of these sex scenes are just really, really graphic for no benefit.
00:26:24
Speaker
I mean, you know, I'm more for a good sex scene, but I think, you know, whether it's either written or in film, it needs to actually add substance to the actual plot.
00:26:33
Speaker
And that's when I think it's more powerful.
00:26:35
Speaker
But a lot of sex scenes are just, I'm like, skip, skip, skip, skip.
00:26:40
Speaker
Well, yes.
00:26:41
Speaker
And they're just so improbable and, you know, anatomically inaccurate.
00:26:48
Speaker
And written by guys who watch porn and don't realize how women enjoy sex.
00:26:55
Speaker
You know, you're watching this thing and you're like, yeah, you know, that went up.
00:26:58
Speaker
be enjoyable at all like I feel like I have pretty standard anatomy and like no and then it creates this whole you know feedback loop where things get increasingly detached from your life and not just in porn but in regular movies right exactly and then especially you know before you know it you literally have basically porn on Netflix 365 DNI
00:27:24
Speaker
Yeah, pretty much.
00:27:27
Speaker
It's basically porn on Netflix, basically.
00:27:30
Speaker
Yeah.
00:27:31
Speaker
But just cycling back for as we approach the final part of this episode.
00:27:36
Speaker
So, you know, you mentioned like anti-heroes and villainesses.
00:27:40
Speaker
I think that until we get some really solid female heroes, it's okay to take your inspiration from the bad guy who is a woman.
00:27:49
Speaker
Because there isn't a lot of aspirational characters in cinema or TV shows, you know, because they always have to make the good one, like, quirky and incompetent in some way.
00:27:59
Speaker
Well, they have to make the good one like a doormat.
00:28:01
Speaker
Like if she's beautiful and a nice person, she's either abused, like, you know, Belle and beating the beast.
00:28:07
Speaker
I have a lot of respect for Belle.
00:28:08
Speaker
She was clearly a very intelligent woman, but she was abused by a literal beast.
00:28:13
Speaker
Or, you know, like you said, they have to make her ditzy or they have to make her, you know, basically less than a well-rounded, accomplished woman, right?
00:28:22
Speaker
And sometimes, you know, it seems like the form of degradation is having them get with a guy that is just so underqualified.
00:28:29
Speaker
Like any Jack Black movie and then, you know, whatever supermodel of the moment they pay, you know, pair them with.
00:28:35
Speaker
It's like, why?
00:28:36
Speaker
With Gwyneth Paltrow and Jack Black in Shallow Howl.
00:28:41
Speaker
I'm trying to remember.
00:28:42
Speaker
I know that movie.
00:28:43
Speaker
Yeah.
00:28:44
Speaker
Or any movie with like the guys that made the 40 year old virgin or knocked up like those movies just have me screaming like, why?
00:28:52
Speaker
Why?
00:28:52
Speaker
This woman has a career.
00:28:54
Speaker
This woman is put together and you're living, you know, in a garage being high all day.
00:29:01
Speaker
Like there's no way that a woman of this caliber.
00:29:04
Speaker
OK, you know, I've made my mistakes, too.
00:29:06
Speaker
But, you know, but it's not realistic or aspirational.
00:29:12
Speaker
The guy might be like, oh, yeah, I can be a slob and pull that.
00:29:16
Speaker
You know, this movie, you know, is my dream come true.
00:29:19
Speaker
It's not for any of the women watching it.
00:29:21
Speaker
That's a nightmare.
00:29:23
Speaker
That's true.
00:29:23
Speaker
I guess Hollywood, like many things, seems to be made for men.
00:29:27
Speaker
So how can we make it more for women as well?
00:29:29
Speaker
I mean, I've got a few ideas, but I'd like to hear from you what you think as somebody who is closer to that world than I am.
00:29:37
Speaker
Well, to be clear, I'm... I mean, more female-centered, I'm more FDS.
00:29:43
Speaker
I'm like kind of on the indie level.
00:29:45
Speaker
I'm not like, you know, I'm not working for companies that make Marvel movies or anything like that.
00:29:52
Speaker
Much smaller.
00:29:54
Speaker
I mean, but the independent film scene is also a powerful medium as well, especially seeing as, you know, with Hollywood, I'm sure I'm not alone in this, but recently I think everybody is really over the superhero epic era at the moment.
00:30:08
Speaker
You know, when you go to the cinema and you're there for three hours, it's just everyone's over it now.
00:30:12
Speaker
Like, you know, all the superheroes have been clapped out to death.
00:30:16
Speaker
So, you know, the independent, you know, film sector is also a powerful medium.
00:30:22
Speaker
I think that could potentially be a way in which, you know, female characters can be almost, you know, not repositioned, but they can be portrayed differently and, you know, portrayed as well-rounded, you know, human beings, not necessarily this sort of, you know, dichotomous, you know, she's either a villain who's a bitch or she is like a meek housewife who is the perfect woman in quotation marks.
00:30:44
Speaker
Well, I think we don't need any more movies where the female characters are tropes.
00:30:50
Speaker
Are real characters the women should be too.
00:30:52
Speaker
And so whether that's not buying scripts about women that were written by men who've never talked to a woman or having someone read the script and actually listening to the feedback
00:31:04
Speaker
You know, this is not tracking as a real woman.
00:31:06
Speaker
A real woman wouldn't do this.
00:31:08
Speaker
A real woman wouldn't say that.
00:31:09
Speaker
Gosh, I'm starting to sound like myself when I'm watching the Fast and Furious movies with my kids.
00:31:13
Speaker
And I'm like, I don't know if a bunch of incels wrote these scripts, but... Probably did.
00:31:18
Speaker
They probably did.
00:31:20
Speaker
Yeah.
00:31:20
Speaker
I mean, who writes 10 films about fast cars apart from an incel?
00:31:24
Speaker
Right.
00:31:25
Speaker
I mean, I have a lot of problems with the Fast and Furious movies.
00:31:27
Speaker
You know, great action scenes, but like, oh, yeah, daddy, you know, if you win, I'll fuck you because your car's really fast.
00:31:34
Speaker
I really don't know anyone like that.
00:31:36
Speaker
I don't find that realistic.
00:31:38
Speaker
And, you know, if there's furniture women in the script, that's what I call the beautiful women.
00:31:42
Speaker
They're always like draped on the back of a chair while the gangster is having his meeting or, you know, they're just around, but they could be a lamp or something.
00:31:50
Speaker
Just furniture women.
00:31:51
Speaker
Yeah.
00:31:52
Speaker
And then, you know, because I'm Asian, you know, I've got a lot of gripes with the way that Asian women are portrayed on screen also.
00:32:00
Speaker
I think generally women, the way like non-Western women are portrayed in Hollywood is also deeply problematic.
00:32:06
Speaker
But I think that's a episode for another day because I could go off about that.
00:32:11
Speaker
That definitely ditto.
00:32:14
Speaker
But, you know, I think it comes down to if the writer cannot write female characters, it's time to get a new writer.
00:32:21
Speaker
I think that's a good place to start.
00:32:24
Speaker
Yeah, and I think, you know, also like where possible, supporting, you know, female led films, female directors as well can shift the narrative.
00:32:33
Speaker
And I think also just generally, I feel like there has been a massive cultural shift over the past three, four years.
00:32:39
Speaker
It's wild that 2020 is now four years ago.
00:32:42
Speaker
Oh my God.
00:32:43
Speaker
I still think it was like two years ago.
00:32:45
Speaker
But, you know, within the broader dating scene, I feel like there's been a bigger cultural shift, especially amongst women, you know, where we are almost drowning out the noise from like men who are trying to keep us in this sort of box and trying to do this sort of like dichotomy.
00:33:01
Speaker
So you can either be the bitchy boss lady, like, you know, the meek submissive housewife.
00:33:05
Speaker
And women are saying no to that.
00:33:07
Speaker
Like we can have our money.
00:33:08
Speaker
We can still want a guy who treats us well.
00:33:11
Speaker
We can...
00:33:12
Speaker
you know, set our standards, we can still be all of these things.
00:33:15
Speaker
And, you know, we don't care that, you know, if you believe that we're the villain, ultimately, as well.
00:33:21
Speaker
So I hope to see more of that.
00:33:24
Speaker
And as they say, I think that art imitates life.
00:33:27
Speaker
So it'll be interesting to see, like, I guess, if this sort of, if the cultural shift continues, if that will reflect in films.
00:33:35
Speaker
I mean, we saw a taste of that with the Barbie film that I had still haven't seen Barbie because,
00:33:39
Speaker
I'm not really about like hype and hysteria, but I will watch it when I go on holiday in a couple of weeks because it's in the in-flight entertainment.
00:33:47
Speaker
So I'll catch it then.
00:33:48
Speaker
And I've heard mixed reviews about Barbie.
00:33:50
Speaker
I haven't actually seen it yet.
00:33:52
Speaker
I haven't seen it yet either.
00:33:53
Speaker
I'm waiting for it to be free on Netflix.
00:33:56
Speaker
Yeah, same.
00:33:57
Speaker
I simply feel like paying for it.
00:33:59
Speaker
I don't want to pay for it either.
00:34:01
Speaker
I mean, I've literally just said support female directors, but I found it difficult to cut through all the hype and the noise off it.
00:34:06
Speaker
When it dies down, I can watch it with a clear mind.
00:34:10
Speaker
So I will do that.
00:34:11
Speaker
Yeah.
00:34:12
Speaker
The other thing I think nearly needs to change is this view that women are a niche market.
00:34:17
Speaker
We're literally 51% of the population.
00:34:20
Speaker
That's so true.
00:34:21
Speaker
That's so true.
Women as a Market Force: Beyond the Niche
00:34:23
Speaker
In many cases, we earn more.
00:34:28
Speaker
And, you know, two more things that aren't playing video games in a basement.
00:34:33
Speaker
So I would argue we're a bigger market and we're a more active market.
00:34:37
Speaker
And we are not a minority.
00:34:40
Speaker
Literally, we're not a minority.
00:34:42
Speaker
No, that's so true.
00:34:44
Speaker
Because one of my favorite subreddits, What Code Go Wrong?
00:34:47
Speaker
And it's mostly like guys crashing their motorcycle in stupid ways.
00:34:52
Speaker
We live longer.
00:34:53
Speaker
We're a better market.
00:34:54
Speaker
We're actually going to be around to spend more money.
00:34:56
Speaker
And, you know, once you get past a certain age bracket, like there are more women because we didn't crash our motorcycle or try to hang off a ladder off that ledge.
00:35:04
Speaker
You know, we live longer.
00:35:06
Speaker
Yeah.
00:35:07
Speaker
And it's interesting you actually mentioned that because like first, I hadn't really thought of that.
00:35:12
Speaker
Like it's so easy to think of like women as some sort of minority group because of the way we're treated, but we're actually not.
00:35:18
Speaker
And as a result, we have a lot of power.
00:35:20
Speaker
Hence the things like the feminism and the cultural shift, you know, you know, now you're seeing, you know, men writing think pieces about why dating is now unfair.
00:35:28
Speaker
And that is because that women, you know, we're a powerful force and, you know, hopefully we can in that change from our side as well.
00:35:37
Speaker
But I remember speaking to a marketer and he was always saying that, you know, women make the best, you know, storytellers and marketers because they have empathy, whereas men don't.
00:35:48
Speaker
And, you know, women can put themselves in the position of the person who is buying the product or viewing or watching the film and they can write from their perspective.
00:35:58
Speaker
And that is why they tend to do better in fields, you know, such as marketing or, you know, storytelling or script writing, for example, like a lot of extremely good scripts are either co-written or written by women.
00:36:10
Speaker
Yeah, I think, I mean, a lot of the famous script doctors are women like Carrie Fisher was a script doctor.
00:36:16
Speaker
Philippa Boyens did the Lord of the Rings trilogy.
00:36:21
Speaker
And you can see the difference in how women were portrayed in film versus other films where it's just been a sausage fest all over the script.
00:36:31
Speaker
So speaking of women having greater levels of empathy, I mean, I think that really ties in with men and women thinking that, you know, what's fair is different.
00:36:40
Speaker
And when we say, oh, you know, we like raped and murdered and stalked, you know, a little less, like maybe around the same amount that you guys are.
00:36:48
Speaker
And then men say that's unfair.
00:36:51
Speaker
Well, the other option for fairness is that they get raped and murdered as much as we do.
00:36:56
Speaker
So, I mean, it's not the kind of fairness they're looking for.
00:36:58
Speaker
And I just misunderstood or they just don't want to give anything.
00:37:02
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:37:04
Speaker
And also, I'm just generally just hoping that in terms of the way the villainesses are portrayed, I'm just hoping that we begin to see more, I guess, feminism and radical feminism in some of these female characters as
Feminist Portrayals in Media: Rejecting Stereotypes
00:37:16
Speaker
well.
00:37:16
Speaker
I mean, they had it with Cruella to some degree, basically, lambasting marriage and kids, but they just did it from the wrong angle.
00:37:23
Speaker
The angle that she was just a bit of dog hater.
00:37:28
Speaker
Well, hopefully it's baby steps.
00:37:29
Speaker
They've introduced the concepts out of the wrong mouth, and then hopefully later we can progress to the point where the good characters are saying these things.
00:37:40
Speaker
And it's not shocking, because it shouldn't be.
00:37:42
Speaker
It shouldn't be shocking to acknowledge these things.
00:37:45
Speaker
And it shouldn't take somebody that's on the fringe, you know, on the fringe to the point that they're the villain of the movie, to be able to say these things in film.
00:37:54
Speaker
No, it shouldn't.
00:37:55
Speaker
keep watching and just hoping that Hollywood just gets its act together.
00:38:00
Speaker
But I mean, you know, these themes are also present in other, like, film industries as well, such as Bollywood, such as Nollywood as well, which is the African market, the African version of...
00:38:12
Speaker
Hollywood, these sorts of themes are also present.
00:38:15
Speaker
You know, you watch a film when you're a child and, you know, the woman is deemed, you know, to be an evil anti-hero slash villain slash gold diggle.
00:38:24
Speaker
As women get older, you actually turn around and think, actually, she was right.
00:38:29
Speaker
So...
00:38:30
Speaker
I know, I know.
00:38:32
Speaker
You know, that's one of the things about representation.
00:38:34
Speaker
You shouldn't have to wait till we're older and wiser to realize that these are people we can look up to.
00:38:39
Speaker
There should be characters, a spectrum of characters, especially including aspirational ones.
00:38:46
Speaker
And aspirational ones, truly aspirational, that like, yes, this is who I want to be when I grow up, not this is who the man wants me to grow up so he can fuck.
00:38:54
Speaker
Aspirational on our end, not theirs.
00:38:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:38:56
Speaker
And, you know, as a final point for me, I also think that accepting and, you know, looking at female characters differently, it might also involve giving sometimes like women the benefit of the doubt.
00:39:09
Speaker
I've often found, and I'm guilty of this myself, in that we judge women a lot more harshly than we judge men, even as women.
00:39:18
Speaker
So sometimes just giving them a bit of the benefit of the doubt and understanding the complexities of the situation that they're in.
00:39:25
Speaker
Is there a particular scenario you're thinking of?
00:39:28
Speaker
Oh, that's a good question.
00:39:30
Speaker
I keep going back to, I mean, I would probably, you know, like an example I would think of is the one I used towards the top of the episode, like the parent trap with the step-mom.
00:39:40
Speaker
I'm not saying that she was perfect.
00:39:42
Speaker
I think sometimes she was a bit out there, but at the same time,
00:39:46
Speaker
it wasn't really appreciated the fact that being a step-parent and trying to come into a blended family was really difficult.
00:39:55
Speaker
And again, like the fact that her husband was openly pining for his ex-wife, like quite obviously too, which, you know, looking today, you know, we would just say he's a scrotal, for example, but
00:40:07
Speaker
it was almost like she was getting in the way of his potential relationship with his ex-wife.
00:40:13
Speaker
But at the same time, he was the one who chose to bring another woman.
00:40:16
Speaker
So yeah, so that's one thing I would say.
00:40:20
Speaker
Yeah, so they're definitely blaming him for a situation he put himself in.
00:40:25
Speaker
And that's not entirely fair.
00:40:27
Speaker
Yeah, and she was painted as the villain, even though it's a difficult situation to walk into.
00:40:33
Speaker
But obviously you don't understand the nuance of that when you're watching something as a comedy and film just has to position somebody as the villain or the anti-hero.
00:40:42
Speaker
All right.
00:40:43
Speaker
Well, is there anyone that you would consider your evil inspiration?
00:40:48
Speaker
Yeah, let us know.
00:40:49
Speaker
Let us know.
00:40:51
Speaker
I'd also probably say, for me, she's not in film, but she should be, hopefully one day.
00:40:55
Speaker
Or maybe she is in film, but I haven't seen it yet.
00:40:57
Speaker
Catherine, the Great of Russia.
00:40:59
Speaker
Oh!
00:41:02
Speaker
I know some people have been asking for an episode, historical scrapes episode on that, which I will get around to, because I don't normally go that far back in history.
00:41:10
Speaker
Like if it's earlier than 1850 or so, I just can't imagine life that far back.
00:41:16
Speaker
So I just sort of just skip it.
00:41:18
Speaker
But I did look up Catherine the Great and she was special.
00:41:22
Speaker
Yeah, she was unabashed about a bunch of things.
00:41:26
Speaker
Very unabashed.
00:41:29
Speaker
And people think it's, you know, shocking when Madonna's running around with her little boy toys, but like Catherine the Great's like, you know, I got you bait.
00:41:39
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, Catherine the Great was, so that'll be an episode coming to the podcast soon.
00:41:45
Speaker
But yeah, let us know who your favourite female anti-heroism villainesses are in the comments.
00:41:51
Speaker
It'll be interesting to have that discussion.
00:41:55
Speaker
But yes, thank you so much, Cassandra, for joining me on this episode.
00:41:59
Speaker
I really enjoyed discussing and dissecting this topic as well.
00:42:03
Speaker
Because again, I also think it's really good to watch any form of media with a critical lens as well.
00:42:08
Speaker
So hopefully this episode has brought some of that to Hollywood or maybe ruined it even more for you, like it has for me.
00:42:16
Speaker
Aww.
00:42:19
Speaker
Oops!
00:42:21
Speaker
Well, thank you for having me.
00:42:23
Speaker
You know, there's plenty of more things to ruin if you ever want to talk again.
00:42:28
Speaker
Plenty of things.
00:42:30
Speaker
Hopefully.
00:42:31
Speaker
Hopefully.
00:42:32
Speaker
So that's our
Conclusion and Social Media Links
00:42:35
Speaker
show.
00:42:35
Speaker
Check us out on Twitter at fem-strat.
00:42:38
Speaker
We are making a slow return to Twitter slash X. I think ever since that, the muskrat has taken over.
00:42:44
Speaker
It's sort of... Yeah, it's just... The experience has gone absolutely rapidly, like, downhill faster than Dilly.
00:42:50
Speaker
So...
00:42:51
Speaker
But yeah, we are around on X and we're also on our personal accounts as well while I'm still tweeting and trying to stir stuff on my personal account as well.
00:43:01
Speaker
That's Savannah underscore FDS.
00:43:04
Speaker
You can also join our Patreon.
00:43:06
Speaker
We have two currently going as well.
00:43:09
Speaker
And thanks for listening, queens, and for all you skrots out there.
00:43:14
Speaker
Eat it and like it.
00:43:15
Speaker
And die mad.
00:43:16
Speaker
See you next week.