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Unpacking Religious Trauma
160 Plays1 month ago
On this week's episode, we have on guest Ann Russo to discuss her experience as an author and therapist. We dive into the topic of religious trauma and how unpacking shame relates to various identities like ENM, queer, sex positive, etc.
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Transcript
Introduction to Religious Trauma and Sexuality
00:00:08
Speaker
Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Fun of Sex podcast. I'm Natalie and today i have a very special guest, Anne Russo on.
00:00:19
Speaker
And we are going to be covering the idea of religious trauma, shame surrounding sex, and kind of how these things affect us and how we can really unpack it so we can move forward in a way that allows us to be more fulfilled and allows us to be able to date and have sex without feeling so shameful about it. Because that is something I got asked about all the time doing what I do is just kind of, you know, how do I not feel ashamed? How do I not feel anxious when it comes to these topics, especially when you're coming from a religious background?
Anne Russo's Background in Theology and Therapy
00:00:57
Speaker
So without further ado, would you like to give a little intro of yourself, Anne? Sure. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me on. I'm really excited to talk about these topics.
00:01:08
Speaker
You know, as i as I move through the world and I talk about my work, there has not been one person that has said to me, I'm not impacted by this. So it's different cultures, different ages, races. i feel just everybody has some level of impact of around religious shame or religious trauma or religious harm, even if you're not in a religion.
00:01:33
Speaker
So I started my work back when I was 18, believe it or not. i was part of a ah I joined a church at that time in my life, and I was just very taken in by the doctrine and what was being taught, and I didn't really understand. It didn't really vibe with the way that I had grown up.
00:01:51
Speaker
So I dove right into studying religion in school. I have a master's in theology, a BA in religious studies. I have a master's in social work and I work as a ah clinician, a therapist, and I run a practice of about 15 therapists and we all have some component of working on sexuality, gender, sex positivity, religious shame, queerness, So working with more folks that have not ah felt like they necessarily historically could participate in therapy or felt nervous to participate in therapy due to shame.
00:02:31
Speaker
And I am currently working on a book that's going to be published by Pessy. And this book is to teach therapists how to work with folks that have experienced religious trauma or religious harm. And it's also bit of my story, vignettes, and hopefully relatable to the to the general public. That was really the goal that I was going for, is getting a good mix in there. So that's that's me and my 30-second spiel.
00:03:00
Speaker
Yeah, I think all of that is so so relevant to our show and so much of what people are going through right now.
Natalie's Journey in Redefining Sexuality
00:03:08
Speaker
um For myself, I come from a Roman Catholic background. i went to Catholic school and everything and the way I learned about sex was not learning about sex. They told us about chastity. They said, you know, this is chastity. This is what the idea is.
00:03:28
Speaker
and just basically don't do it was how we were taught. And again, in my child brain, it made no sense because i was like, what are we not supposed to do? What's going on So i just kind of grew up having no concept of sex ed.
00:03:45
Speaker
um But you know Just due to who I am as a person, I was able to kind of unpack it. I went to therapy like you're speaking on, which was very useful. And over the years, I was able to get to a place where didn't feel ashamed and i you know just realized I conceptualized sex very differently than many people in our society. i truly didn't view it as a bad thing and I didn't view sex outside of marriage as a bad thing.
00:04:17
Speaker
But I'll have a lot of people come to me and you know they have questions about how do you do that? How do you you know feel okay with this topic and feel okay pursuing what you
Physical Manifestations of Religious Trauma
00:04:30
Speaker
want?
00:04:30
Speaker
So, i think when it comes to religious trauma and shame, of course, it presents in many different ways for everyone. ah What would you say are some examples of how it may present in your day-to-day life when it comes to sex and dating?
00:04:48
Speaker
Well, it first off, it really lives in your body's nervous system. So speaking from you know someone living in the US, right, raised in this time period, it we're inundated by these messages, whether we're taking them in consciously or unconsciously.
00:05:09
Speaker
So the body understands long before the mind understands. So you may find yourself in a potential sexual situation, talking about sex, even wanting to have sex and something feels wrong inside of your body.
00:05:28
Speaker
And that's the, you it's not happening in your mind. And then from that space, guilt and shame really rise up through your your nervous system. And you may not even know where where it's coming from, why it's there. it's Unfortunately, it's been conditioned in into all of us on some level.
00:05:48
Speaker
So that is the first sign that something is off that you're feeling guilt and shame around sexuality or there's a message that you received that sex is wrong you know like we're talking about as a child it wasn't even necessarily that you're you're told explicitly sex is wrong you're told you don't do this you do this instead and then you have to figure out what that means and so so many people that i that i work with
00:06:23
Speaker
Unfortunately, their how do i even say this they're bodies, and you you've learned that message for so long, don't do this, this is bad, don't do this, and even in the confines of what would be acceptable to the church, the body still won't respond.
00:06:38
Speaker
Like the body, especially wow women, they will tense up and they won't be able to participate in heterosexual sexual intercourse.
00:06:50
Speaker
Men are unable to have erections. There's all kinds of physical responses to the trauma before it even goes into your mind. So I think that that, if there's anything that people could take away, is that it's it's not so much about what you're thinking, it's more about how you're feeling and how to work through that more than it is just having a conversation, okay, now I'm healed.
00:07:15
Speaker
Doesn't work that way. Mm-hmm. yeah Yes, 100%. That's something I do love to educate as well on on the show and on social media is this idea that, you know, because there's also shame inherently with not being able to quote unquote perform or do what's expected of you.
00:07:36
Speaker
And so much of that can be rooted in trauma or in this idea that you are. experiencing shame, you know? And I like how you pointed out the physical responses. That's where you feel it.
00:07:50
Speaker
um Because that's also something people will talk to me who are not, you know, of my queer community or of my sex positive community. Even people who are in vanilla marriages that are very traditional. It's, you know, well, how can I talk to my husband about sex? How can I do this?
00:08:12
Speaker
So absolutely for somebody who's in that phase where even just talking about it feels very uncomfortable, is there any advice or even like a self-soothing technique when you are feeling those physical responses of anxiety coming up, either talking about sex, performing, something like that?
Coping Mechanisms for Anxiety and Shame
00:08:33
Speaker
Absolutely. So I do want to make clear that what we're trying to do is decrease that negative symptomology. So even in doing these practices, you may feel very little relief initially. but The goal is to just keep doing that and hopefully working with a sex positive therapist can be very helpful.
00:08:57
Speaker
but But some of the techniques that you can use because the nervous system reacts very well to uh breathing like noticing your breathing noticing what your body's doing when you're breathing when when we go to protect ourselves from things that are uncomfortable our our bodies tend to tense up and we tend to have our shoulders kind of round forward like we're protecting our chest and that is the opposite of helpful that will actually create more anxiety so it's being very aware of like elongating your system and breathing
00:09:34
Speaker
having different tactile experiences can be helpful. One of the things that I used to do with one of my clients when she would get anxious is she would eat a Hershey's kiss in the session. And we'd stop and we'd say, okay, what is the texture of this? What does it taste like? What does it smell like? What does feel like? It brings her into the present moment because the nervous system and the anxiety is not reacting to the present moment.
00:09:58
Speaker
It's reacting to the past, trying to protect you. So that's something that we do. um Focusing on something in the room it can be helpful um for people that are interested in it. Meditation, yoga, taking baths, lotioning your skin, things that really are self-soothing to you. There's not necessarily a one-size-fits-all, but anything that we're doing to relax your nervous system.
00:10:29
Speaker
That's awesome. Yes, that's something I love is doing some breathing techniques. um I feel like the part of sex where I get anxiety, um now that I've like gotten to a point where I've unpacked the shame as aspect is you know simply being able to finish. That's my anxiety trigger.
00:10:50
Speaker
So you know you feel yourself all tensed up and getting into that headspace where you're just focusing on deep breathing and things like that. Like you said, do you feel the physical response yeah and finding a way to come out of that, you know.
00:11:06
Speaker
And I love what you just said too that, you know, you still have some of that and I think that's important for folks to know is there is ongoing work to be done because those messages have been so pervasive and they happen to us all when we're very young.
00:11:23
Speaker
So we're having to rewire our entire system. And not only are you rewiring your system, but those same messages keep pushing back on you. It's not like you go, this doesn't make sense to me. And then society goes, we agree with you. You know, that's not how that happens. So it's it is a continuous process of pushing back and finding people that think similarly to you and building community around that where you could have this level of discussion with with folks that are experiencing the same things as well. That community ah is a master in helping to resolve some of this.
00:12:03
Speaker
Yes, 100%. I think, you know especially with the point from earlier where people are scared to talk to their partner about this. you know Do you maybe have a trusted friend?
00:12:15
Speaker
Or like you said, therapy is a really, really great thing for this. but Is there a person in your life you can be comfortable speaking with these things and get used to speaking about it before going into the higher anxiety situation of speaking with your partner, you
Finding a Sex-Positive Therapist
00:12:33
Speaker
know? Absolutely. Absolutely. And I really pushed the sex positive therapist because therapists are humans too. And I even talked about this. like
00:12:46
Speaker
As a therapist, you have to be able to talk about these things. And if you're not, don't say that you can. So i hate to have to push it back on the client, but it's like you're allowed to interview a therapist and say, hey, have you worked with folks with this? Are you comfortable talking about this? What is your view on? You're allowed to ask these questions because this is supposed to be a safe space for you to work through what you need to work through.
00:13:13
Speaker
And I think sometimes in my experience, I'll have clients come to me and they'll talk about how a therapist maybe wasn't sure how to handle this situation or wasn't really very sex positive or push them back into a traditional idea that they didn't want. So it's important. It is important to do to do your research on that because you you know you need alignment when it comes to a therapist.
00:13:37
Speaker
Yes, I definitely tell people all the time that you know a therapist isn't a one-size-fits-all approach where just because they're certified, they're going to work for you. Exactly.
00:13:49
Speaker
I had an experience where you know I've been seeing my therapist for like six years at this point, but I was you know in college on a Christmas break in a different location. So I was just going to see someone locally for um Because this was pre-COVID before, you know, everyone was doing virtual.
00:14:11
Speaker
Yeah. um And I remember i was talking to her about a voice situation. And it's very funny because this person is my partner to this day, but this is before we had officially become partners.
00:14:25
Speaker
And I was like, you know. I mean, the underneath of what it all is I hadn't figured out what avoidant attachment style was yet. was talking about like, oh, he's so into so quickly and just don't get it. And like, well, Natalie.
00:14:40
Speaker
you know he's so into me so quickly and i just don't get it and she's like well natalie I mean, you had sex with him.
00:14:51
Speaker
He's gonna expect you to be boyfriend and girlfriend now. And I was, luckily i was not very impressionable at this point, so I was just like, okay. This isn't gonna work, you know? no. no And that's, the but you're so right. I mean, it's like therapists have got to check their biases. And that goes, you know, like I work really hard to do that. And and I have clients that will come in that are very much connected to their faith, very much connected to a more ah conservative alignment with their sexuality.
00:15:30
Speaker
And it's not my job as a therapist to move them away from that. It's my job as a therapist was to help them live inside that without feeling guilt and shame, which is a whole other level of work. But I mean, I firmly believe that a therapist's job is to really be culturally competent and do your best to remove biases and be honest when you can't work with somebody.
00:15:53
Speaker
Yes, 100%. And I think that is a good segue into our next topic. Wow. um Of what it is like to unpack shame as a queer
Queer Identity and Religious Trauma
00:16:04
Speaker
person. Because like you said, with therapy, you want someone who's a match. So, of course, it's helpful for people finding someone who is you know aware of the queer community, is familiar with what you'll be speaking on, is educated on it.
00:16:22
Speaker
um But when it comes to queerness, the religious trauma can impact you so much more than it would for a hetero person. Absolutely. how would you say that experience of unpacking religious trauma and shame may be different for a queer person and you know If you are queer and you're on this journey, what are kind of know some common things you think a person may experience while being on that journey?
00:16:51
Speaker
Well, being a queer person, I can speak to that pretty directly because my initial work was in queerness and Christianity and the intersection of the two and how to help people resolve that.
00:17:05
Speaker
My work only expanded when I started seeing, oh my gosh, this is not just about the queer community. now that that's how where it But that the roots of that. and it um
00:17:21
Speaker
It's not, you know, the parts of it that are different is that you're being told that yourre i that your identity, your existence is flawed and sinful and in a heterosexual situation, or let's say let's say a sex outside of marriage, right, in ah in a heterosexual way,
00:17:51
Speaker
your action is this is is the sin, but as a queer person, you yourself are the sin. So I think that that can be... Of course there's nuances to that as well, so I'm speaking very broadly here. um So as a queer person, it's the it's working through the understanding that as I exist as a queer person, I'm not inherently wrong or sinful because of my queerness.
00:18:20
Speaker
So that's definitely a a big component. the
00:18:27
Speaker
Depending on how conservative the church environment that you're coming out of, there's a stronger chance of losing friends, family, and community if you're out as queer.
00:18:40
Speaker
And you also have to come out. right like it's an experience of like you come out or you hold it in and either ah each of those have their own mental health implications rejecting versus the internal pain of holding something within yourself so i mean you have those those unique challenges And on a societal level too, there's so much pushback against the queer community.
00:19:08
Speaker
mean, we we're seeing it very intensely right now, especially for trans folks. so So, you know, people that are not queer can't really understand what that's like to have your whole existence threatened by a government body right so it's like you have like all of these big pieces that are are happening outside of you and then you have oftentimes have to work through even your own internalized homophobia Does this mean I can't be religious anymore? Does this mean I'm not allowed to have a relationship with God? Do I have to choose? So there are questions and implications that just don't happen the same way as they would for you know non-queer folks.
00:19:56
Speaker
And with that said, treatment around that and therapy can still be similar with the right clinician because if he so like with them with the book and the model that i have it could be used for anyone that's showing up really as long as the clinician is understands the nuances of those particular communities right so like you were saying earlier you you need to
00:20:27
Speaker
a clinician who understands queerness there are so many nuances to that if you don't understand that you really can't do the work even as much as you may want to there's just things you're just not going to understand you know but how i would go about treating a queer person or a non-queer person it would still be similar it just might the progress may just look a little bit different does that make sense of what i'm yes okay yeah And I love the way you put that where it's about unpacking an identity versus an action.
00:21:02
Speaker
um That's really the core of the issue especially With the way religion influences our legislation, it influences our society and how we see people, even people who aren't hyper-religious still have those internal biases is where they look at to be queer is to be shameful.
00:21:25
Speaker
yeah And I love how you brought up the internalized component as well because I think you know things are you know, for now it's legal to get married, and things are still better than past generations. But, you know, people still deal with a lot of shame. i mean, you know, for me, I'm bisexual.
00:21:49
Speaker
um i know many bisexual people. And i think that's such a thing to unpack in itself is I meet a lot of bisexual people where it's like, okay, I have a really strong preference for this gender, or i feel very aromantic with this gender, but very romantically attracted to this one. And it's such a nuanced thing to be like, okay, is this...
00:22:16
Speaker
internalized homophobia or is this how I really feel?" um And similarly, I think the tools we discussed with responding to the physical reactions can be helpful with queer sex as well, you know? Because I think for a lot of people, their first time being in a queer sexual situation or even doing something that may be seen as more simple like kissing can still trigger those physical responses when you've been told your whole life it's wrong, you know?
00:22:51
Speaker
Absolutely. You know, it's so, um I love what you just said about being bisexual because I have seen with a lot of my bisexual friends who even up my partner, she was married to a man for a very long time and now we're together.
00:23:12
Speaker
But it was like society treated her different treats her differently depending on which gender she's in a relationship with. And just the own her own, she's really like awesome in the sense that you know, she is who she is and and she's good with it. But there was just so much unpacking because then you're even your friends have this assumption or that assumption. Or does this mean I'm supposed to show up like this? People think, oh, you can't be committed. I mean, there's just so many different layers. And i and i've I've seen my friends that were bisexual in a queer relationship
00:23:49
Speaker
then be in a heterosexual relationship and then be shunned by the queer community. And I've seen the, I've seen i've seen like just the intensity of being bisexual, it's whole it's ah it's an entire other level of challenge as you're moving through the world that doesn't fit neatly into either either packaging.
00:24:11
Speaker
I just want to say that because I feel like people that are bisexual sometimes get these like just this negative idea because you happen to be able to be attracted to both or you know more than one gender oh yeah 100% and I think that's what a lot of bisexual people I speak to face it's kind of this idea of you know you're not fully accepted by the hetero community or if you're someone who's more fan presenting, then you're accepted in a way that's fetishized versus you know in the queer community if you're in a straight passing relationship or hetero relationship, it's like, oh, you're suddenly not queer. um
00:24:55
Speaker
And there's a lot of bi-erasure, there's a lot of light ephemeration as well and all sorts of things to unpack. um But yeah, this this whole idea of having to deal with unpacking shame surrounding an identity was also making me think of the E&M and m
Ethical Non-Monogamy and Self-Awareness
00:25:16
Speaker
community. Yeah. Because I don't know if you saw the Pope, the Catholic Church recently released um a statement basically saying this multiple partners thing.
00:25:29
Speaker
this is this is not in line it is sinful you can only have relationship in marriage with one person anything else is just thin which of course if you don't believe that but it's like you know that's how i feel i'm like well i don't really care what you say because i know my relationships are healthy i know They are fulfilling. i know they're based on love.
00:25:58
Speaker
And that's what really matters to me, of course. But really i think when it comes to shame and how religion has shaped how our society these relationships, it is such a unique thing with E&M where, you know, most E&M people I know are pretty closeted about it. I mean, they have certain people in their life who know about it others who don't.
00:26:23
Speaker
Um, so, you know, what is it like working with an E&M and m client when it comes to unpacking shame and religious trauma? That is a big one.
00:26:38
Speaker
Well, from my personal experience,
00:26:43
Speaker
I think there are elements of that coming out that are actually harder than queer. I've, yeah yeah I'm gonna answer your question, but i I remember I created a training for therapists so they could get you credit units to learn how to work with E&M clients. You know, just surface-level stuff. And I and i posted it about it. And I'd never had a post have so many ah reactions ever on anything. And the hate that was being spewed was unbelievable.
00:27:17
Speaker
And this was a class to teach therapists. Like I wasn't promoting anything one way or the other. Right. So it would I was actually stunned at that kind of reception.
00:27:31
Speaker
And many of it was i in religious language. The post was also in religious language. So. You know, we got to think about this because I haven't had a lot of, I i still view it the same way. I i think when it comes to E&M, the biggest thing that I've worked on with clients is helping them understand how they view and value relationships and
00:28:05
Speaker
But even past that, it's learning how to be authentic within themselves. It's very rarely about the relationship style, actually.
00:28:16
Speaker
you know Even when I ran classes ah to teach, to to help people explore this, it it wasn't too much about like, well, this is how you do E&M.
00:28:27
Speaker
It was more, or this is shame around E&M. Like, yes, they're carrying it, absolutely. but it was more about like, who are you?
00:28:39
Speaker
What do you want? This is what you've been prescribed. Does it align with you? What are your ethics? What are your values? Are you able to show up authentically, even in the most difficult of circumstances? How are your communication skills?
00:28:55
Speaker
How are your attachment styles? So it was it was them learning how to build what worked for them based on better understanding themselves.
00:29:06
Speaker
this is And that is where I feel the heart ah of E&M is, and that's how I've seen it in my own life, is it's it's it's it's always been about healthy communication healthy boundaries and honoring yourself while honoring the people that you choose to participate in relationship with more than it's anything else and i think if you do that work very very difficult work shame naturally eases o yeah i think so much of it is
00:29:44
Speaker
being rooted in your sense ofsol sentence of self, and I liked your word of authenticity of who you authentically are. yeah um i like you know i had started my E&M journey just kind of not even knowing why I felt this way. i had no idea E&M or non-monogamy was. i was just kind of like, well,
00:30:08
Speaker
you know i love my partner, but I also have this feeling of wanting to be with other people too you know because society has taught me that once you find the wand and the love of your life, you're going to magically not even look at anyone else. And that just didn't happen for me. It doesn't happen for pretty much everybody, honestly. Like very small.
00:30:33
Speaker
Yeah. um So yeah we started our E&M and m journey. This was back in 2020. um And you know, i slowly got more and more comfortable with telling people, becoming public.
00:30:49
Speaker
I was very grateful to have a lot of very um sex positive and leftist and open-minded friends already. so You know, I was already known as the sex positive friend. So at this point, we were just playing with other people. So when I thought, yeah, this is what I'm doing, everyone was all my friends were just kind of like, oh, okay.
00:31:12
Speaker
Cool. Tell me more. you know um But yeah, I didn't experience I think real shame surrounding it until I became more public with it and had a second partner in my life where i I was in situations where now I was very publicly with both partners and people can visibly see that I'm with both partners.
00:31:42
Speaker
And all of a sudden, I'm now becoming aware of like, oh, wow, people are giving me weird looks. People are giving me confused looks. Some people are giving me looks like, good for you, girl. I'm jealous. Yeah, so That was a whole thing to unpack this last year was this idea of like,
00:32:04
Speaker
you know Why do I feel this way? is there you know The first question was, is there something wrong with me that I have two partners? And then I very quickly, especially after being in therapy for so many years, was like, what do you mean, Natalie?
00:32:21
Speaker
This is who you are. but can you like Let's just envision your life for a second if you chose to only have one partner and be monogamous. and have this traditional vanilla marriage and not do kink, not do any of the stuff you're doing that is so authentically you.
00:32:41
Speaker
And very quickly, I had just kind of like got myself out of that headspace because I was just like, no, I would not, that would not be the life I want. So sure, I'll deal with some judgy looks from time to time. But you know What I will say is that as much as people, you see the hate online and you see these very loud voices, I have been surprised being more open about E&M, and m how many people are very comfortable with it. Many people who are in my life who are monogamous, they wouldn't do it themselves. They don't have an interest in it at all.
00:33:21
Speaker
But once you explain it, once you answer a couple of questions, people tend to get very quickly comfortable with what your dynamic is and speaking about multiple partners and whatnot. So yeah.
00:33:35
Speaker
Totally. and you know Some of the things that I i' tell my clients too is i I really believe this. I'm curious if you feel the same way. I think for some, E&M is an exploration.
00:33:49
Speaker
I think for others, it's truly an orientation. oh Like this is, i can't do anything different. I am this, I am oriented to this. So asking me to be something else, you you really are asking me not to be myself. It's not, oh, let me test this out or,
00:34:09
Speaker
I'm unhappy, so I'm going to go try and make myself happy. No, it has nothing do with any of those things. It's It's who you are. Just like the color of eyes, you know?
00:34:21
Speaker
is. And now you have to figure out how to make that work in a society, generally, that doesn't make it so easy to work. similar I mean, it's similar i mean it to me, it's another form of of queerness. You know, it's the outliers who are really not that much, I think, if we're really people are really honest, I don't really think queerness is that much of an outlier.
00:34:44
Speaker
i think just, you know, our our our religious background has has made us the outlier, but not necessarily what's true to human beings. 100%. one hundred percent I mean...
00:34:57
Speaker
You know, these ideas, the concept of non-monogamy and queerness has existed since humans first started, know, drawing pictures on cave walls about what was happening in their life.
00:35:10
Speaker
um So, yeah I agree with you. I also think E&M is, for a lot of people, a core identity that they can't change, no matter how hard they try.
00:35:23
Speaker
Same thing as being queer. um And, you know, there's all sorts of different
E&M as Orientation and Societal Challenges
00:35:28
Speaker
levels of it. Some people, it's just kind of like, we have the occasional three-way. um Other people, it's like you're like me where you have multiple partners and these are full-blown romantic relationships and they're a core part of your life.
00:35:43
Speaker
um But yeah, like we were saying, there's no shame in it. And I like how you pointed out that these things are seen as non-normative, but you would be surprised how many people are curious about it. And if they... pop had maybe but the personality or the awareness or the support system to be able to unpack these things, they very well may be living that life as well. I mean, we see it all the time. Every time there is like
00:36:20
Speaker
Republican convention, people will check out Grindr and see the activities and things like this. Or, i mean, so many people I've talked to as well in regards to E&M are you know It's very interesting because we first got our start with E&M when we like had no concept of what was going on in swingers clubs. And you will talk to these people and they, in the South particularly, they are like church on Sunday, super traditional family, three kids, but they go and swing on the weekends.
00:36:58
Speaker
So, yeah do you know when i when I hear you say that, a lot of different emotions come up but I think the two biggest ones are sadness and hope yes you know even though they are contrary to each other because I think that that should be able to be the norm.
00:37:24
Speaker
Like that should be okay. Like you can have a religious life or a spiritual life or have a God, right?
00:37:35
Speaker
And still be a human exploring your sexuality. Like those two things should not be ah misaligned with each other. And it gives me hope that that's happening.
00:37:48
Speaker
i just wish people, if we could just, I just wonder what it would be like if people could be authentic in the world, what that would look like. Like you were saying about Grindr, right? It's like, oh my gosh. Like when those when you see the activity on Grindr and you're thinking you are the same people that are you're voting against yourself.
00:38:06
Speaker
u her Literally. But the shame that you must be carrying within yourself and how horrible that must be that you go on Grindr while you're at a Republican convention. I imagine what kind of internal beatings you're doing to yourself. And that is sad to me.
00:38:22
Speaker
ah yeah I completely agree. It's, you know, on one hand, validating to feel like, okay, I'm not the outlier.
00:38:32
Speaker
but on the other hand, it's so... sad how ashamed these people are that they'll go to any length. And I mean, that's kind of the thing I feel like has talked about a lot online is this idea of like maybe some of the most homophobic people are people that are struggling themselves, you know? um Yeah. Because I think in general, hateful people, no matter what they're struggling with, they're clearly struggling with something. and Absolutely.
00:39:05
Speaker
That's what I always try to remember myself. I try to preach to people as much as it's much easier said than done. Just be grateful that you are not so miserable with your life, so sad, so depressed that you feel the need to hate on someone else, you know?
00:39:25
Speaker
but when Absolutely. People will ask me, because I make all these sex-positive videos online, on TikTok, on Instagram, and they're like, how do you deal with these random people being like, oh my god. Like, whenever I have a video go viral, of course, there's random man just being like, oh my god, this is so disgusting. And I'm like, honestly, like...
00:39:48
Speaker
it doesn't really bother me because I know i'm living such a happier, more fulfilling life than them. Because i just, I can't even process how miserable you must be to get triggered by a video online that is somebody just doing something that doesn't harm other people at all.
00:40:11
Speaker
Very different if it's harming people, but doesn't harm or affect you and to leave a hateful comment. So I think all of that being said, that is a reminder from this episode to when you're experiencing shame because of society, because of what someone's saying to you, um I know it's a lot easier said than done, but just try to remember that it has nothing to do with you and it has more to do with that person and what they're dealing with.
00:40:41
Speaker
Yes, yes. And keep showing up. I know that it is hard. i have my life on the line and my work as do you. and it's not an easy thing to do but some of us not all of us but some of us have got to do it if you have it in you to do it do it keep standing up because there are are people that need you they need to know that there's other people like them it you're the work that you're doing in those videos is the antithesis of harm you're helping someone navigating
00:41:19
Speaker
And God knows what community they're trying to navigate and understand themselves. And I don't think it's too far to say that some people want to harm themselves, take their own lives, just end it all. And then they see that there's someone out there like you. And that has got to be worth a thousand shitty comments.
00:41:41
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and that's why I do this, you know, especially for other women coming up to me and it's the first time they've seen a woman just be openly saying, talking about sex, talking about, you know, educational things to do with sex, giving advice in just an open way. And that's why I do this because yeah if I can help at least just a few people feel more comfortable with it, then It's all worth it. Yeah, absolutely. and And the fact that you know you've had to move through these things, like it's not that you were just born shame-free or that you didn't have your own experience. you know So it's it's that hope too that if you're experiencing even the hardest parts, it's possible to move through these things and live a more fulfilling life.
00:42:34
Speaker
So like kudos kudos to you on that because I i i see it, I know it. this is that Especially like you said, for for women, it's very difficult to show up as a sexual being and try to educate other people on it.
00:42:48
Speaker
And so like thank you for the work that you're doing. Yes, and thank you to you too. um I'm so excited to read the book and check it out and to everyone, keep your eyes out for that because I think it'll be really helpful for you guys in this audience. um You know, we yeah um like you said, those tools and models are applicable to everyone. so Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, I always say to like, I'm always here to to support people navigating those journeys as well, because I know that it's difficult. And I didn't share this yet. But, you know, I grew up in an ENM household.
00:43:31
Speaker
Okay. Little. And um my my my bio dad has had the same ah secondary partner since I was like a teenager.
00:43:42
Speaker
And they they've been together since I was five. But they have different ways of practicing E&M. It's shifted through the years. But the thing that they they are primary partners. And I know not everyone has does E&M that way. That's fine. But all I have learned from E&M truly is that love is infinite.
00:44:04
Speaker
that's what it That's what it taught me. And that when you care about others and others care about you, that's love and that's beautiful and I know that there's challenges I know society pushes back and this is not an advertisement to go B&M in E&M if you're not but what it is saying is it is valid and it's loving and it's supportive and it's and it can be a very very beautiful thing when people show up as their as their authentic selves Yes, and I think that's such a lovely note to end on.
00:44:37
Speaker
So thank you so much for today, Anne. um This was a really great episode. so Thank you for talking to you as well. All right, this has been the Fun with Sex podcast, and we'll see you next time.
00:44:53
Speaker
Awesome.