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00:00:01
What is ENM Coaching?
159 Plays1 month ago
Today we're joined by Nicole, creator of Freeform Coaching (@freeformcoaching). She gives the inside scoop on what coaching looks like, who it's for, how people can benefit from it, and how it differs from traditional therapy.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:00:01
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of the Fun With Sex podcast. So today i have a very exciting guest on, Nicole, and we are going to be discussing the idea of E&M coaching and Nicole's new business. so very exciting stuff. um Something new we haven't talked about on the show yet. So without further ado, would you like to introduce yourself, Nicole? Yes, thanks for having me. My name is Nicole Sonnefelt. My pronouns are she, her.
00:00:32
Speaker
I'm a queer, bi, former trauma and couples therapist. And I just started my own business called Freeform Coaching, specifically to work with people navigating non-monography.
00:00:45
Speaker
Yeah, and I am, you know, I'm always happy for anyone who starts not just a business, but a sex-positive business as a sex-positive business owner. yeah um Because, you know, there are so many barriers, but it's also offering people something that is very important that isn't talked
Coaching vs Therapy: Nicole's Approach
00:01:04
Speaker
about enough. So in your own words, would you like to describe what your business is and kind of what the goal of it is? Okay. Okay.
00:01:12
Speaker
Yeah, so I basically provide guidance for all types of people under the E&M umbrella. So singles, couples, polycules, you name it, people that identify as swingers, people who are poly.
00:01:28
Speaker
kinky and everything in between and sex workers as well um and it's a little bit different than therapy and that instead of working on like deep-seated emotional issues and emotional regulation it's more goal-oriented future-focused problem solving um and so i kind of come basically i combine my clinical experience and training um my master's in counseling psychology and my experience of three years working with singles and couples with complex btsd with my own experience um both being in the lifestyle being a sex worker being kinky um and being poly so i combine a little bit of everything with
00:02:11
Speaker
Yeah, that sounds so awesome.
Personal Experiences in Coaching
00:02:13
Speaker
And I love how, you know, i think the differences you described are super interesting, because on one hand in therapy, I mean, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but you're not really supposed to like,
00:02:26
Speaker
talk about yourself or give examples with your life, right? And I feel like, you know, me giving advice to people on the show, um the vulnerability of being able to go off of your own experience and what you've experienced has been so, so helpful.
00:02:42
Speaker
um Especially, you know, as I'm building outlines for the show, doing research, it's really nice to have tangible real life examples that you can go off of. So when you're speaking to someone, you can say like, hey, in my life, you know, when I was in this E&M relationship um and actually have that to go off of.
00:03:02
Speaker
um Especially speaking as someone who does do therapy, you know, it's great. It's super helpful. But at the end of the day, your therapist, they may be E&M friendly, but they have not necessarily engaged in these dynamics. Yeah, I think that distinction is super interesting. And um I can see it being very beneficial for people.
00:03:25
Speaker
Yeah, actually, if I can say something about that, my first client that I had in my coaching business is someone that I met through the community, which as a therapist, you cannot do. the ethical boundaries are really strict, which is really important. There's a reason for that.
00:03:40
Speaker
um But they knew me through the community and they said even though their therapist was in them, they wanted someone specifically to help them um figure out how to like negotiate and move through play parties with confidence and safety, how to like communicate with their partners with the parties. Right. And they said like,
00:04:00
Speaker
My A&M therapist is great, but I want someone that I know has the experience and right like how to navigate a play party is not something you can figure out by reading book. Right. Like it was like they chose me specifically because they know I attend these things and it was just a really cool thing um and just speaks to that. Like you said, like someone who you know has the experience. on A therapist can't necessarily advertise that they attend play parties because that's like a boundary issue as well.
00:04:30
Speaker
Yeah, and I think there can definitely be that disconnect with people not um understanding like the particulars like that, right? like I may understand what I've read about being E&M, but at the end of the day, I've never been in a relationship and attended a play party or a club or something like that. So when my client comes to me and they're like...
00:04:55
Speaker
yeah, this happened at the party, you know, like even i would get questions from my therapist where like sometimes she'll check it and be like, okay, so what's the norm in this scenario? I'm like, you know, luckily i've I'm
Transition from Therapy to Coaching
00:05:09
Speaker
experienced and stuff. So I do have like um some kind of like caliber to say what is the norm but like not everyone does and if you're brand new like i could see that being super discouraging so you know we're getting into the difference between therapy and your business and coaching so what was kind of the biggest thing that pushed you to make the switch from therapy to coaching
00:05:34
Speaker
yes i love this question um there are actually two really big reasons why um the first one being is over time working as a therapist i got really really frustrated with our health care system and mental health care system um when i entered grad school obviously just as a consumer i had an idea of how shitty our system is and how terrible insurance companies can be.
00:06:02
Speaker
um But then being on the other side of it, being a provider that kind of has to accept insurance insurance because insurance companies have a stronghold on um all types of health care. Right. um And this over time made me really, really frustrated because for one, they dictate how much money we make at the end of the day. um You can say, I want this much per hour, but they're like, you know what?
00:06:27
Speaker
No, we think you're worth $30 less, yeah right? And the insurance companies are constantly auditing you. So, right, like, yeah, I spend this extra time on the phone with my insurance companies um explaining to them why my client with PTSD is needs health insurance and needs coverage. Right. And that's just like extra work they make you go through that you're not paid for.
00:06:49
Speaker
And then on the other end of it, I had so many clients who a lot of the issues they were experiencing were actually related to our health care system and financial issues. Right. And so It felt like so hypocritical to be helping people who are being harmed by the system. But at the same time, in order to help them, I had to be a part of the system.
00:07:12
Speaker
And I just got more and more frustrated with it as I realized like, there wasn't much of a way out of it as because otherwise you can't really be accessible to people because there's also legalities around like sliding scale and therapy so um it limits how little you can require people to pay for out-of-pocket services so basically if you want it to be affordable for people you have to accept insurance and you have to work in with this system um yeah and yeah over time i was like this just does not
00:07:44
Speaker
um fit with my values and it doesn't make sense for my approach um in addition to like sex workers being a main community I want to work with yeah because of my own experience as a sex worker and so many sex workers don't have access um to great health care health insurance right they can't afford a therapist that specializes in it um and so that was like another barrier that I saw coming up to working with the type of people I wanted to work with um
00:08:15
Speaker
And then the other really big reason why I made the transition is because of how active I am in my E&M community. um Yeah, so the ethical boundaries, right? Like, for example, dancing at Sluts Party.
00:08:27
Speaker
If someone were to see me performing at Sluts Party, I could not be their therapist. Like there's yeah very strict boundaries. I also perform at private play parties. And so um essentially when I was thinking about starting my own practice to really specialize in our community, I realized, well, if I do this, I have to take take a step back from all the ways that I participate because it's a very tight knit, small community. Right. um And that just also felt kind of strange for me because
00:09:01
Speaker
part of my philosophy as a therapist is like connection and belonging is healing yet like right I want to provide this service where I'm further connecting with my community but in order to do so I have to disconnect and like that also felt really weird and like yeah kind of like an oxymoron like okay I don't really know like how this would work otherwise yeah coaching, although I will hold like my own particular values and boundaries that I have for myself um with my clients. um It just gives me a lot more flexibility and an ability to provide services for people that I have met before um in some of these spaces.
00:09:41
Speaker
Yeah, that was a big thing that, you know, when I was creating the outline and thinking about your business that I was curious about is, you know, because like you said, in therapy, there's the legality and the ethc ethical board and everything. So you can't, um you know, see somebody that you're too interrelated with. yeah I didn't realize it was like literally just being in the same community like that. That really limits. And I can see like...
00:10:09
Speaker
how negatively that would impact you and yeah people who maybe are inspired by your work and want to get advice from you and help from you so it's really just kind of shooting both uh people in the foot there yeah um but like how would you say i know you mentioned having like boundaries and limitations how would you handle kind of, cause I know like being a community leader, um even before sluts, I was hosting play parties. That was always kind of something interesting was having multiple people come to me with multiple sides of stories and ah just like, you know, kind of as this like community leader, like being able to take a neutral position and still give people helpful advice without, you know,
00:10:58
Speaker
you know, leaning to one side or that sort of thing. Like, how do you imagine different scenarios being both a part of a community and helping people in the community as a professional? How would you say that would go?
00:11:12
Speaker
Yeah, so that's a great question. it kind of depends. But um something that I do take from my time as a therapist is like acknowledging the power dynamic that's inherent in the relationship.
00:11:26
Speaker
So telling my coaching clients hey, like inherently there is this power dynamic, right? Because I'm the one that's the expert telling you what to do, but I want to leave it up to you to decide how we might interact with each other in public, right? My very first client, we already knew each other from the community.
00:11:43
Speaker
And so the normal spiel as a therapist is with HIPAA, right? Like if I see you out in public, um I can't acknowledge you, but you can acknowledge me. Right. Yeah. And when this person, the conversation was do like, what makes you comfortable? Like, you still want to just say hi to each other how we normally would. Like, I'm not necessarily going to share your information with people at all. Right. Like, I'm still going to keep that confidentiality. But.
00:12:09
Speaker
like we are navigating in the same spaces. um I think also for me, some things that that's really important is like, I will not coach anyone that I date particular. And right, like I have a lot of friends in the community as well. And if it feels like, like I've had some of them ask me like, hey, we do really want to hire you. And it kind of depends on the relationship or some that I'm closer with than others.
00:12:35
Speaker
where i'm too entangled and i'm like i don't think it would be a good idea for me to do this for you guys because like someone might feel like i'm picking a side right or like i know too much um versus people that i'm acquaintances with or hang out every now and then or we don't have that super close relationship um i would be happy to do that for um just because i just really want to help people in our communities so like if people are comfortable with already having that level of relationship with me and want to hire me for it. Like, I'm happy to do that. I really just want everyone to have like the healthiest um relationships that they can.
00:13:15
Speaker
Yeah, I love that focus on like comfortability and leading with like what makes you comfortable.
Coaching as a Solution-Oriented Approach
00:13:21
Speaker
And honestly, just reminds me a lot of like E&M and m and kink negotiations in general with relationships and dynamics. Like, you know, if you if you are someone where you want coaching and you also want to be E&M, like a big part of both those things is being able to understand boundaries and agreements and Also, just understanding that your relationship can look however you want it to look, whether it's with your friend, your coach, who is also your friend. Yes. The people you're dating, you know, it's really um your own thing to decide.
00:13:59
Speaker
So what may a client get out of coaching that you think they wouldn't necessarily get out of therapy? Well, I think one of the really important things we already touched on is that aspect of me bringing my personal experience to the table and also being a part of the community. i think when you're starting with therapy, or at least in my experience, being poly, kinky, sex worker, all these things, right? Like I was kind of just slowly sharing things, kind of like testing the water to tell like,
00:14:31
Speaker
is my therapist actually affirming do they actually know anything about it right and so i think in particular with my business that's um a process that you can skip over completely because i make it very clear i'm experienced in all these things i'm part of the community um And I think that's something that just creates like a comfortability and trust right out the gate.
00:14:53
Speaker
um Another big difference is that in therapy, you aren't necessarily supposed to tell people what to do, right? um You can give them feedback, reflection, all these things. um But with my coaching, it's very like problem solving, goal oriented. So Right. They come to the session, kind of tell me what they're wanting to work on. We sort of prioritize things on level of importance. Right. Like where do we want to start? um And then by the end of the session, we're going to have like step by steps like here's kind of your homework. This is what you're going to do moving forward. Of course, I'm still, if people, right, like don't like the suggestions I'm giving them, that's totally cool too, but it can be a lot more directive than therapy is. um There is some crossover in some of the things, but um I would say like that's one of the main differences.
00:15:44
Speaker
Yeah, I like that idea of being very light solution-oriented, like you said. um I think that's super helpful in E&M because, you know, especially I feel like a lot of traditional therapy is based upon, you know, trying to...
00:16:01
Speaker
rewire your brain in a way so that you can lead yourself to a healthy answer for yourself. um So it's a lot of like leading the horse to water, right? Yes. You can't make them drink.
00:16:14
Speaker
Whereas i do appreciate that with the coaching, it's kind of like... okay i'm e and i i have no idea i have no basis for what is the correct answer here because we live in a society that is monogamy oriented totally i'm so confused on what i should do in this scenario and i haven't been able to like find the answer directly and like the media and literature i'm consuming you know what do you think because That's the thing is you can, you know, be in E&M, you can speak to friends where you have platonic agreements of like, we are able to speak about our relationships without, um you know, having a negative view of each other's partners and da-da-da. But...
00:17:01
Speaker
um yeah, they they might not have the right answer. I've definitely been in that scenario where I'm like, oh, this person gave me advice. And, you know. Yeah. So it's nice to have that professional that is like actually helping lead you to a solution that is really grounded in something. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Like, I think having friends and support in the community is so necessary. But you're right. Like, our friends aren't all experts. They don't all have mental health experience. And like,
00:17:32
Speaker
So I'm taking that training and that experience I have and applying it to non-monogamy, which I think makes it more valuable and also trying to come at it from a more like biased perspective as opposed to getting friends involved in it Yeah, totally.
00:17:48
Speaker
So with coaching, um you know, I can imagine it would be super helpful if you are someone where you're struggling a lot, mostly in your relationships.
00:17:59
Speaker
But would you say coaching is only for someone or a couple or group that are struggling?
Proactive Relationship Enhancement
00:18:06
Speaker
Or could you just be someone where it's like, you know, honestly, I'm doing pretty good, but I just want to do it to try? Like, what would that look like?
00:18:16
Speaker
Yeah, um I definitely think it can be for all types of scenarios. I think, right, it's so helpful if you're struggling, but I think being proactive rather than reactive is actually better. So in particular, something that I really want to do is work with people who are just getting into it. Because like you said, there's a lot of literature out there.
00:18:38
Speaker
But until you're in that scenario, you really don't know. And I know like I started exploring this in from a monogamous relationship that opened up. And there are so many experiences that I had um where it would have been so helpful to have someone guide me or say, like, here are some things you can expect, right? So I think it could be particularly useful for people who are just starting out. And especially if they're just starting out, they may not have a community, right? So they'll have no one to talk to.
00:19:08
Speaker
It might just be their monogamous or vanilla friends that are saying, you know, all these like biased things about non-monogamy, right? They're not really going to be able to give you great advice or great feedback about what's happening.
00:19:21
Speaker
um So yeah, it can be for all types of people. I think it's helpful for people who are struggling or kind of have like one-off problems that they're dealing with. But I think also it can be really great for people who just want some like feedback, you know, kind of like relationship upkeep as well.
00:19:37
Speaker
Yeah, totally. And I think it's a really smart idea to kind of already have that space built into your schedule, you know, um because even with E&M, you know you can be new, you can be like, have been doing this for a while.
00:19:54
Speaker
um And you can feel really solid and like things are really great. But like, first of all, you never know when a new emotion, new trigger may come up, something you haven't experienced before.
00:20:07
Speaker
um But it's also nice to just have that professional to go to even when things aren't necessarily going bad. You don't have major struggles. But having somebody to help give you the support, having somebody to help you understand what is...
00:20:23
Speaker
you know, healthy, what is good. um Because that's the other thing is you may be new to this and be like, oh, yeah, things aren't bad. And then a decade later, you look back and you're like, oh, my God, that was so unethical. So it is super helpful to have a professional no matter what stage you're at.
00:20:43
Speaker
um Because even if you've been doing it for a decade, it's like, life is going to change. Totally. And your relationship is going to change. Your views of your own self are going to change. So I just, my advice would be why not? Yeah. And I think um you're touching on something that I've found really important.
Challenges in Non-Monogamy
00:21:03
Speaker
to help people with is like contingency planning, right? Because so many unexpected scenarios are going to come up.
00:21:10
Speaker
For example, a lot of people when they're starting out will have this like no feelings sort of rule or agreement. Yeah. Which is something that as a therapist, right? Like I know you cannot control how you feel, right? You can control how you respond. So contingency planning for, okay, we say that we want this to only be casual, but what if this happens?
00:21:32
Speaker
what are we going to do in that scenario? Like, and making agreements around how you're going to deal with unexpected things like that um to really help you navigate it when it does come up. Because like you said, that you can look back 10 years later and be like, wow, I had no idea what the hell I was doing. Yeah, literally.
00:21:52
Speaker
um And I love that, too, because, you know, I think so much of, like, connecting with yourself with E&M is doing those what-if scenarios of, like, okay, I haven't felt jealousy yet in this relationship, but...
00:22:08
Speaker
what if they got another partner what if they meet someone long distance what if they meet someone who lives right next door to them like you just go yeah through and almost like exposure therapy in a way of like how would i feel what is the ethical thing to do how can i soothe myself you know All of that. Yes, totally.
00:22:31
Speaker
But so we've like touched a little bit on some scenarios that may be helpful for coaching. But what do you what would you say are some common E&M issues or struggles where it may be super helpful for this person to try coaching?
00:22:49
Speaker
Yeah, so there's so many things. um Some things off the top of my head I'm thinking about. i mentioned earlier, like navigating play parties, like something I really like to help people with is kind of having like a routine for before and after with yourself, with your partners to check in. um working on communication, whether it be verbal, nonverbal, um creating agreements where everybody feels um like the agreements are equitable equitable and like healthy for everyone involved.
00:23:20
Speaker
um Communication in general, yeah that might seem very obvious, but a lot of people don't want to disappoint their partners, right? So they avoid communication. So having hard conversations, talking through those things with people.
00:23:36
Speaker
um I think also i mentioned earlier, like the transition from monogamy to non-monogamy. There's a lot that comes up that people need to unlearn, right? Like internalized shame the heteronormativity couples privilege yeah things like that so kind of like educating yourself bringing awareness to those things and how they might come up um in ways you wouldn't expect um something else that I specialize in is working with sex workers because um even if those sex workers aren't like in the lifestyle per se they don't attend play parties it is a non-traditional relationship, right? If you're yeah doing some sort of sexual act, but you're in a relationship. um
00:24:18
Speaker
And I think that's something like is really important to me as a sex worker because I had my own negative experiences with therapists, not understanding that dynamic in my relationship. yeah um And so also navigating the ins and outs of that. um Because it would have been really helpful for me to know like what is fair or not, so to speak, for like my partner to ask or for their response to be for like what I'm doing in my work. Right. And like understanding um the intricacies of the difference between sex as work as opposed to like relationship. Right. Yeah.
00:24:57
Speaker
So those are just a few of the many things that I can cover with people. Yeah, I love that. um And I agree as a sex worker, I do think, you know, obviously, like i view it as a form of labor, like any other form of labor.
00:25:13
Speaker
But sadly, it is a thing that can come up in relationships and it can impact. You know, even just the frustration of your partner, like not fully getting that this is a job or like, yes, that sort of thing, you know, um it's really nice to have that support of somebody who is pro sex work actually has provided that form of labor and just completely gets it. yeah um but yeah i think all those issues I agree are like super common things i see that I think it's really helpful to get support especially like you said when you first come into E&M nothing nothing can prepare you no matter many times totally we need poly security you will not be prepared yeah um yeah was thinking of that something I forgot to mention it's like jealousy of course people ask yeah um so much about dealing with jealousy and
00:26:08
Speaker
I kind of call it like making friends with
Reframing Jealousy and Personal Fulfillment
00:26:11
Speaker
Chelsea, right? Like because it's an emotion that we're taught is so negative, instead thinking about it in this like nonjudgmental sort of like mindfulness way, right? And figuring out like what it actually feels like for you, what it feels like in your body and using it as like a learning process.
00:26:28
Speaker
experience as opposed to restricting the relationship in order to not feel it um that's definitely a really big thing because in monogamy although it's not healthy right part of like toxic monogamy culture is okay you feel jealousy now you limit your partner so you don't feel that right and that's something that is not helpful at all in a non-monogamous dynamic yeah completely agree All right. Well, i think this has been an amazing conversation. thank you. um Is there anything you want to share? Any final thoughts? That's a great question. i will just say like a big part of why I started this business is because I have gotten so much from non-monogamy. I feel like it's made my life so fulfilling. And so for me, just really excited to have the opportunity to like give back
00:27:24
Speaker
to a community that's given so much to me. on so I appreciate everyone listening to what I have to say. yeah Awesome. Well, I will make sure to tag Nicole's information online so you guys can, you know, check her business out, see if you're interested um or even at best just consume a lot of the helpful Instagram and TikTok content she puts out. So great yeah. Thank you. Thank you We will see you next time.