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All About Sex Work Part 1
141 Plays28 days ago
On this week's episode of the Fun with Sex Podcast we're discussing all thing sex work! We go over common misconceptions, the importance of decriminalization, and more from the perspective of two sex workers.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Fun with Sex' podcast
00:00:01
Jon McCray Jones
Hello and welcome to the Fun with Sex podcast. I'm Natalie and this week I have a very special guest on today's episode to talk about sex
Destigmatizing Sex Work: Key Topics
00:00:12
Jon McCray Jones
work. All things sex work, destigmatizing it, and all that good stuff.
00:00:17
Jon McCray Jones
ah Do you want to give a little introduction, Luna?
Meet Luna: Stripper and Content Creator
00:00:21
Jon McCray Jones
um hi I'm Luna. I am a stripper. um What else do I do? That's my main thing.
00:00:29
Jon McCray Jones
don't know.
00:00:34
Jon McCray Jones
Yeah. Stripper, do you create content too at all? Yeah, Stripper, I create online content. um Yeah, self-proclaimed porn star. um And that's about it at the moment, I think.
00:00:46
Jon McCray Jones
Yeah, all the fun stuff. yeah Love it. All right, so we're going to go ahead and get right into it. Starting off with some super fun stats.
Perceptions and Statistics in Sex Work
00:00:57
Jon McCray Jones
So 43% of people think sex work should be illegal.
00:01:02
Jon McCray Jones
Boo. Why? um and then the most shocking stat, 16% of men say that they have relied on sex work, which I'm just going to go out on a limb and say that's very inaccurate.
00:01:18
Jon McCray Jones
would imagine that's underreported a significant margin. I think on one hand, people probably are like, too shy to actually admit that they've gone to sex workers before and i think there's also this idea that when people envision what sex work is they're kind of thinking of like escort services is the only thing when in reality like do you watch porn do you go to strip clubs that sort of thing and then a not so shocking statistic full service sex work generates 14 billion annually
00:01:55
Jon McCray Jones
So I'm going to guess a little bit more than 16% of men have relied on it at some point in their life. 16% of men are coming up with $14 billion worth of revenue. Yeah, a little suspicious.
Understanding the Nature of Sex Work
00:02:12
Jon McCray Jones
um So starting off, in your own words, how would you define sex work? um I would define sex work to be anything that involves...
00:02:28
Jon McCray Jones
ah so it's um I would define sex work to be anything that involves like the cultivation of a fantasy anything intended to either like get somebody off in any sort of capacity um so I think of like porn in particular that is I mean the point of watching it I think for most people nobody's watching it for the plot like yes so um I mean the point is to have some sort of physical release at some point, I'm assuming, or to like, you know, titillate your imagination or whatever.
00:03:03
Jon McCray Jones
um In terms of like stripping, it like my job is to dry hunt people. like I mean, if somebody comes in a dance, I'm walking out, but like it's...
00:03:16
Jon McCray Jones
oh yeah the entire purpose of it is you know the creation of a fantasy um yeah based in sexual desire yeah i think yeah building on that definitely the idea that you're giving some type of sexual gratification as a means of labor that somebody else is enjoying right because like we said a lot of people think sex work is only you know, doing penetration with a person,
Misunderstandings About Strippers
00:03:46
Jon McCray Jones
but you go to a strip club.
00:03:48
Jon McCray Jones
I mean, that's the thing that blows my mind is those guys that go to strip clubs and they think the strippers are like actually really into them. It's like she's spending all this time talking to you because that's like you said, that's a part of fantasy for them and everything.
00:04:04
Jon McCray Jones
Yeah, it's also so much more complicated than that, though, because I think personally, like the way that it's fulfilling for me often is that, I mean, obviously, I don't always get to choose who it is that I talk to. and Yeah. with But like when I do, um i mean, I'm not going to like stick around for people that I'm not interested in, at least like a little bit that I want to talk to. And so, um I mean, you do meet really cool people. It's the general population, like,
00:04:28
Jon McCray Jones
um it's not just like old men who are kind of gross walking in there. And even the old men who are kind of gross and pervy like are sometimes delightful too. it depends. I think that's something get a lot too where people assume that I'm just going on dates with guys that are just like,
00:04:45
Jon McCray Jones
oh my god, like, I would never go on a date with them otherwise. It's like, no, you can be selective. You can engage with people who you actually have some kind of connection with and enjoy being around,
Sex Work in the Context of Capitalism
00:04:58
Jon McCray Jones
you know? yeah Okay, so i think one of the biggest...
00:05:04
Jon McCray Jones
Things people get out with sex work is they kind of have this idea that sex work is exploitive in ways that other labor isn't. And I always think this is just so funny when we are living in a capitalistic society where, I mean, aren't we all being exploited? and I mean, I think my thing comparing sex work to other jobs I've had is that has been extremely more beneficial for my well-being and less exploitive because I'm very much in control, right? it's like self-employment. You get to choose what you do and don't want to do compared to working a nine-to-five at an office and you just kind of have to like do what you're told to do and possibly like
00:05:49
Jon McCray Jones
allow that job to impede your physical and mental well-being um so yeah do you want to get kind of into the social construct of sex work yeah um i mean so like you said the i mean capitalism ah not to get on like my marxist bullshit right now but i mean capitalism doesn't want workers to own the means of production and ultimately like that's what sex work is, is, I mean, your body again is that means of production.
Historical and Social Construction of Sex Work
00:06:13
Jon McCray Jones
Um, and like sex work has existed long before we were calling it sex work. Um, so I guess in terms of like how that identity of the sex worker, the whore, the prostitute was like socially constructed.
00:06:26
Jon McCray Jones
Um, you can just kind of assume that there has never not been sex work. Like i as long as people have been alive again, they call it the oldest profession for a reason. Um, ah But this idea of who is a sex worker and um what exactly that means ah came about a lot later than the actual act. So where it was once just something that somebody does, it is now something that somebody is and or becomes as a result of partaking in a particular action. Mm-hmm.
00:07:01
Jon McCray Jones
And the social construction of it allows for that exploitation where now um ah once you have ah word or a label to put on something, you can write it into law that it's criminalized. Yeah,
00:07:17
Jon McCray Jones
um
00:07:20
Jon McCray Jones
yeah yeah I think you know that's such a big thing in capitalism is it's kind of this idea that your job is supposed to be the entirety of who you are and the entirety of your identity and your life.
00:07:33
Jon McCray Jones
And you see it all the time with people who are working more, you know, their accountants or whatever. And that's like the entirety of their identity, which again, i can't imagine. i think we should live in a reality where your career is something you do, but it's not like who you are.
00:07:53
Jon McCray Jones
um And you can find meaning in your career and you can find meaning in that identity. But I think because we exist in that society where it's kind of like what you do for work is the entirety of who you are. it kind of just pins on people that, well, they're a sex worker. So they must be this. They must be X, Y, and Z. It must be just the entirety of who they are when it's like, these are complex people just like anybody else. This is what they're doing for their career.
00:08:21
Jon McCray Jones
And it's, yeah, it's just very dehumanizing to kind of jump to conclusions and make bold assumptions just purely based on what somebody does for labor.
Assumptions About Sex Workers
00:08:33
Jon McCray Jones
Yeah. I mean, I think that's like a good place to get into like misconceptions about it. Because i mean, there are, there's this assumption that sex workers are like inherently sexual people, but like there are asexual sex workers that exist. Like, um again, there is the division between work and pleasure or sexuality, whatever have you, um, where like, again, people can be fulfilled really in any job that they seek out and pursue, sex work included.
00:09:02
Jon McCray Jones
um but there is the, you know, the line there, that boundary might be blurry, but, um there is a line where there where it is work ultimately. um and you do what you need to do to fulfill your your job your role in that transaction yeah I think that's something I get into with people's assumptions all the time is they don't see my sex work as like what it is which is labor and it's not to say that I don't enjoy it or that I don't enjoy the people I connect with or anything like that but
00:09:38
Jon McCray Jones
Yeah, I think people kind of can't separate the idea of doing sex as a means of labor compared to the sex you have, like, at home with your partner, with somebody that you're dating and that sort of thing.
00:09:53
Jon McCray Jones
um And yeah, I feel like that's such a thing in dating, too, where people are just kind of, like, assuming that you're, like, getting off on this all the time. And it's like, no, is just kind of, like, work for me.
00:10:06
Jon McCray Jones
Yeah. um I mean, I think like in terms of, I don't know when I think
00:10:15
Jon McCray Jones
ultimately like sex work is work. And I think how that often plays out in the strip club of like people not assuming that it's work is, you know, guys who will come in there just to like have a beer or something. And it's like, well, if you wanted a beer, just go down the street to the other bar. Like yeah you inherently by sitting in there and not supporting the dancers in any sort of way.
00:10:35
Jon McCray Jones
um you are exploiting them. And I think that's like, um I don't know, we see ah exploitation play out in a lot more harmful ways, especially when it comes to like um the policing of sex work. But yeah,
00:10:47
Jon McCray Jones
yeah don't know yeah yeah no totally agreed um and i think that goes back to like those guys that do that where they just come in and get a drink and they don't go up like they don't tip they don't buy a dance anything like that it's because they really just like don't see it like fucking labor these are people that are being paid to work in this venue for a reason it's the same thing as like if you go to burlesque show like you're gonna tip and Yeah, it's so silly to me when I go to clubs and men are just like, too cool for school. I'm not going tip or engage with these workers at all. I'm like, okay.
00:11:28
Jon McCray Jones
Yeah. I mean, like, my job is to drink and have fun with people and to like... give them a fun experience but that is ultimately work and especially as like a neurodivergent person who's incredibly introverted um that's not like an easy facade to put on and it is exhausting at the end of the day and yeah yeah it does take I don't know more effort than you would imagine and I don't know kind of how uh in terms of like all of the different skills that sex work requires um like across the board whether that's like content creation or porn or
00:12:04
Jon McCray Jones
stripping sugaring, et cetera. um Yeah. Yeah. That's definitely like another misconception I see people have. Like I talked to a lot of my friends who do only fans and content creation and people kind of don't understand all the different aspects of labor and the soft and hard skills that go into that.
00:12:26
Jon McCray Jones
And as somebody who's worked in corporate America, it's like a lot of these skills are the same. Being able to have a personal conversation with someone where you can connect and you find different avenues to connect with them and relate to them and give them advice.
00:12:41
Jon McCray Jones
And even like what you were talking about, like being able to code switch between different people and voices and backgrounds and that sort of thing. These are all very important skills to have that can get you very far in life.
00:12:55
Jon McCray Jones
um And yes, it's labor. Same thing as like, if I have to edit these photos and videos, if I have to invest in my wardrobe and toys for content, if I'm creating connections in the messages at the pub, whatever, there's all these different like aspects and soft skills that go into it.
00:13:15
Jon McCray Jones
Yeah. Yeah. I've always like, whenever I'm shooting content, I'm like, I'm the director, the videographer, director. the audio engineer, the star of the show, like all these things. and Um, yeah, I feel like sex work requires so many different roles all at once.
00:13:31
Jon McCray Jones
um know. And especially like the emotional labor aspect of it. Like, i I mean, can think of many examples of men trauma dumping on me. yeah I'm like, you're not paying me enough money for this. I'm so stuff sorry. Like, yeah, it truly is like free therapy sometimes, um you know, depending on how that person is contributing to the interaction. But.
00:13:53
Jon McCray Jones
Yeah, you can literally be like a therapist, a business advisor, like ah family counselor. Like it's crazy. Right. And the fact that I can't put it on a resume is a little disheartening.
00:14:05
Jon McCray Jones
Yeah, exactly. And just another way these people are disenfranchised is you have all these years of experience developing these skills that are completely transferable to other
Myths and Safety in Sex Work
00:14:18
Jon McCray Jones
careers as well. But it's just not seen that way.
00:14:22
Jon McCray Jones
Okay, another misconception, because you got a lot of these people where they try to pretend that they're against sex work, because, oh, I just want to look out for women. And I don't want women to be in unsafe situations.
00:14:38
Jon McCray Jones
So I feel like the one that comes up all the time is that, oh, you're more likely to be human trafficked, or like, people try to throw out like crazy stats that aren't real that like a certain percent of people are actually being human trafficked or something like that if they're a sex worker um which is just not true mean i think it's that misogynistic idea of you know these women that they're not doing this job because this is a job they chose and something they find fulfilling that they must be
00:15:11
Jon McCray Jones
doing it because they're being exploited by someone else or exploited by society or that, um you know, they have no other options or something like that when that's just not the case.
00:15:24
Jon McCray Jones
And at the end of the day, if we do want to protect women and we do want to protect people from being trafficked, I mean, decriminalizing it. is like that would do wonders yeah i mean if we look at like what decriminalization efforts are trying to do um they're always very clear that they are talking about consensual and like exchanges between adults um no decriminalization effort has been like we're gonna like across the board any he sort of
00:15:54
Jon McCray Jones
you know, sex exchange that happens for money that plays out is all of a sudden ah okay. I think in, I don't know, alternatively, I mean, as we, as the system exists now in America, at least, um if you partake in sex work in any of the, like any of the roles there, you can be prosecuted prosecuted for it um including the people who are being human trafficked. And so I think decriminalization efforts, um that really gives people who like, I don't know if we look at how that actually plays out, um decriminalization allows people who have been human trafficked to um leverage that against the people who are abusing them. um And
00:16:46
Jon McCray Jones
Yeah, it gives them a means to be able to actually report and actually go to institutions for help without fear of being arrested, being charged, or even just facing stigma. you know like I can only imagine if you're somebody who's in an abusive situation trying to get help through means that other people who've experienced that try to get help. I mean,
00:17:11
Jon McCray Jones
I can only imagine the stigma that perhaps they may face going to certain institutions looking for help.
00:17:19
Jon McCray Jones
And then, you know, on that note, we also have the idea of the dangerous prostitute versus the victimized prostitute, if you want to go
Narrative Shift: Danger to Victimization
00:17:29
Jon McCray Jones
into that. Yeah. So like those different narratives of, you know, this, ah the sort of the othering that happens when we think of, you know, prostitution and sex work as dangerous. um That has somewhat changed over time to like,
00:17:45
Jon McCray Jones
I don't know, we see certainly and like second wave feminism in the 70s, the um rebranding of prostitution almost is like a victim sort of narrative instead, um you know, where it's this woman who has been wronged by patriarchy and ah she doesn't know that she's been she doesn't know that she's been brainwashed by patriarchy and men to be exploited and used by them and again it just assumes that women are these sexual objects in the interaction as opposed to like the subjects of that transaction especially when it's you know i don't know yeah consensual um or i only when it's consensual but
00:18:28
Jon McCray Jones
Yeah, and again, I think in that narrative, it really takes away their personhood and their autonomy, just kind of making those bold assumptions about people's ah livelihoods, and about their situations, ah and just kind of feeds back into this patriarchal narrative that for a woman to do something sexual, they must be exploited, right? Right.
00:18:51
Jon McCray Jones
Yeah, people who are involved in consensual sex work are not victims, inherently. um I think there are a lot of reasons why criminalization of sex work leads to, you know, the victimization of sex workers. I mean, you see like a lack of resources um and like access to housing, like other things like that.
00:19:13
Jon McCray Jones
um And also just the way that they are, you know, exploited by policing, um,
00:19:21
Jon McCray Jones
ah the inability to report when assault happens. um All of those things create victimization, but it's not sex work in
Comparing Exploitative Labor Forms
00:19:29
Jon McCray Jones
and of itself. It's the lack of access to, you know, the things that one needs in order to be safe in the profession.
00:19:39
Jon McCray Jones
Yes. And I think on that note to like this idea that all sex workers are exploited, like, so if we're going to make like I just always think it's so silly to make that bold assumption when we're living in this capitalistic society where so many people are exploited i mean like I think it kind of gets back into this idea of like oh well you're selling something that you should hold to a high value and you should hold a certain meaning to but I mean think of how many people like we have so many studies coming out about how
00:20:18
Jon McCray Jones
sitting in front of a laptop for eight hours a day is just horrible for your body and you're sacrificing your physical and mental well-being for this job or how many people just have super high stress levels from their job or people who do manual labor and they have all sorts of injuries and pains on their physical body from their job um Or even the military. Yeah. um I mean, yeah, ultimately, like people in the military, they are, you know, selling their body for the means of war and, you know, the military industrial complex. um
00:20:57
Jon McCray Jones
But, you know, when sex workers do it, they're using their bodies, you know, for their own self-interest and for, I don't know, they're not answering to anybody else. And so capitalism, you know, doesn't want that to Or generally speaking, they're not answering to anybody else.
00:21:14
Jon McCray Jones
um Not always the case, but yeah.
00:21:22
Jon McCray Jones
Yeah. Yeah, totally agree. Again, like owning the means of production versus, um you know, answering to a governing body. It's a way different experience.
Personal Insights on Sex Work
00:21:35
Jon McCray Jones
Yeah. And definitely speaking from personal experience to working. just honestly a bunch of different jobs, corporate jobs, nonprofit, sex work, self-employed.
Preview of Next Episode
00:21:47
Jon McCray Jones
um For me, honestly, this avenue has been the most liberating compared to especially somebody with a disability and trying to fit into that scope of like corporate America and not being able to get accommodations and stuff like that versus sex work like i am my own boss and i'm able to build my own schedule and only meet with people who i have good connections with who i feel good around and that sort of thing yeah so i think we're gonna end up doing a part two because there's still so much to dive into so we will see you next week where we'll dive more into some other common misconceptions and
00:22:34
Jon McCray Jones
And then more about criminalizing versus decriminalizing sex work.