Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Why Do People Cheat?
118 Plays13 days ago
Today we cover the question on everyone's minds... 'why do people cheat?' The answers are a lot more nuanced then you'd think. With scientific data, personal anecdotes, and a fun game, we cover everything about cheating.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Cheating Discussion
00:00:01
Jon McCray Jones
Hi, welcome back to the Fun With Sex podcast. I'm John. And I'm Natalie. So today we're going to talk about everybody's favorite topic, cheating. And then at the end, we're going to have a little game where we're going to talk about 10 to 15 scenarios and then have like a little discussion on if we consider that to be cheating or not.
00:00:21
Jon McCray Jones
Yeah, I should have done a dramatic effect when you said cheating cause I feel like it is just the hot topic. All over the internet. Everybody's talking about it.
Defining Cheating Across Relationships
00:00:30
Jon McCray Jones
Everybody's stressing about it.
00:00:33
Jon McCray Jones
I mean, I think like my thing with cheating is that like, there doesn't seem to be a consistent definition of what is cheating. And I kind of hate the ideas that like, well, cheating whatever you feel like cheating is.
00:00:45
Jon McCray Jones
Because that's we're going to get into. There's so many actions that are just people's insecurities and unhealthy boundaries that aren't cheating. Yeah. But then on the flip side, there's so many things that is very clearly a violation of trust and boundaries that people gaslight their partners.
00:01:02
Jon McCray Jones
That is all in their head when it's very clearly is cheating. And I guess like to start with, would you want to define cheating or like what cheating looks like to you?
00:01:12
Jon McCray Jones
Yeah. So to me, cheating is doing something that is outside of you and your partner's agreed upon boundaries. So that is super subjective, but I think where people get it wrong is it's agreed upon, right?
00:01:30
Jon McCray Jones
If your a partner thinks him looking at girls on Instagram isn't a big deal, and you think that's cheating, well, that's not the same thing as like, hey, I'm in a monogamous relationship.
00:01:43
Jon McCray Jones
We've agreed to only have sex with each other and your partner goes out and has sex. So same thing with like being non-monogamous. It has to be within your boundaries that you mutually set.
00:01:55
Jon McCray Jones
And I think that's like a huge misnomer is that cheating only happens in monogamous relationships and that like, none of monogamous relationships don't care about cheating when in reality that's not true.
Communication's Role in Defining Cheating
00:02:09
Jon McCray Jones
And I think the like the other point that you mentioned that's super important is that cheating has to be communicated. it has to be something that like, your boundaries were violated and I think there's like a couple of things that are like intuitive like if you're in a monogamous relationship and your partner goes off and has sex with someone else sure we can all agree that like intuitively that's cheating or even if your partner kisses somebody but I think once you start moving away from like that into like the more nuanced things it has to be communicated
00:02:44
Jon McCray Jones
Yes. And I think that, like, a danger that monogamous couples get into is that they think that everything is intuitive and that, like, the model of monogamy is set in stone and it's not fluid between couple to couple and that everybody should intuitively understand and know what counts as cheating and what doesn't inside the relationship and what acts are.
00:03:07
Jon McCray Jones
I mean, like, to go back to the stereotypical cishat couple where One person views posting sexy pictures online as cheating or somebody views liking or following other people's accounts where they post like hot pictures as cheating.
00:03:25
Jon McCray Jones
If that's not communicated beforehand, that's I don't think either one of those are cheating. Even if it's communicated after, I think that we need to have a conversation about that. Or things about like texting a coworker platonically or like hanging out with a friend of the opposite gender. Again, i have my own personal thoughts on that.
00:03:45
Jon McCray Jones
But objectively, if those boundaries aren't communicated, I don't think those things are cheating. Agreed. Yeah. So let's get
Research and Trends in Infidelity
00:03:52
Jon McCray Jones
into some research. Do you want to read it or do you want me to read it? You can go for it. So research shows that approximately 20 to 25% of myriad individuals report infidelity ah though these numbers vary by study and religion.
00:04:07
Jon McCray Jones
For example, some surveys indicate that around 16% of women and 23% of men have cheated at some point in a relationship. Studies reveal that many couples who experience infidelity report high levels of relationship satisfaction overall, challenging the notion that cheating only occurs in unhappy relationships.
00:04:24
Jon McCray Jones
So, two things I want to get into. One, there is this really interesting increase in parity amongst women and men cheating and cis hat relationships like that gender divide is closing do you have any guesses why or do you think you have any reasons why that's the case well i mean i think as times progress women are not as financially dependent on men so yeah i mean i think like the power dynamic is closing which like i think
00:04:59
Jon McCray Jones
i don't know, I think it's a sign of progress that, like, people are cheating equally, that one person in relationship doesn't intuitively have more power than the other and it can, like, go explore it without the risk of, like, if I get caught with cheating, I lose my entire, like, economic support.
00:05:17
Jon McCray Jones
Yeah. I also think that, like, it could be a sign that more women feel comfortable admitting to having affairs versus, say, a hundred years ago with the idea that Even in the survey, you couldn't talk about that. Maybe, like, the stigma of shame around cheating has decreased me a little bit.
00:05:34
Jon McCray Jones
I mean, there was a very long time where it was actually illegal for a woman to do that. You could be put in jail for having an affair. I think, like, adultery laws and cishat relationships apply to, like, both genders.
00:05:48
Jon McCray Jones
I think it's just the risk of, like... women you know they weren't prosecuting men at the same rate that's what was gonna say like the risk women being prosecuted more is probably like i mean men could have afforded a lawyer if you're a woman you don't have that luxury i think more importantly cultural idea of like cheating was normalized if like a man does it versus a woman does it like it's just well like all men have their little side affairs and like boys would be boys versus like there was a much higher economic, legal, and political risk for women to engage in infidelity or adultery.
00:06:26
Jon McCray Jones
But going back to the second, studies reveal that many couples who experience infidelity report higher levels of relationship satisfaction. Why do you think that's the case? Why do you think that cheaters see married cheaters seem to be more happy?
00:06:41
Jon McCray Jones
To me, i kind of view that stat as people who are truly non-monogamous and think that cheating on each other is the only way to make this work, but they're both like content with how things are. Like I think of that couple from the Ashley Madison documentary where they were like, yeah,
00:07:01
Jon McCray Jones
We're serial cheaters and we go off and we cheat on each other and we always come home and it's just like the best life ever. And it's like, man, if I could just sit you down and explain polyamory to you real quick.
00:07:14
Jon McCray Jones
So I think it could be a lot of those people. I mean, there's people where they get like extremely turned on by cheating too. Where like, I could definitely see a lot of these couples where they're like,
00:07:26
Jon McCray Jones
just like jealous fucking each other all the time because they're cheating all the time and like very content with that cycle and i know we're going to get into this in a part two but like i think that what we're seeing is that there's a lot of people who understand that like monogamy shouldn't they be rigid it should be fluid and that humans are going to naturally be attracted to other humans and i think that there are some people who are like 100 monogamous and i think there are some people who are like 100 relationship anarchist and polyamorous but i think that like most humans are somewhere in that atmosphere of like there's going to be variants in relationships and i think that like a lot of people get a lot of joy out of the idea that like
00:08:16
Jon McCray Jones
every once in a while I can have like a thrill seeking experience with someone else or like I can act on that crush that I have on this person. Whereas feel like a lot of people who are forcing themselves to be 100% monogamous and never step out of the rules of the boundaries of the relationship end up forming some type of like resentment toward their partner. And like the idea of like,
00:08:42
Jon McCray Jones
the grass is always greener on the other side versus the person who gets to experience that, who gets to try the other side every once in a while. Then they come back and they're like, Oh no, I'm with this person for a reason. Or like, yeah, the sex was good. And like, I enjoy spending time with that person, but like that person is still a human with flaws and not on this pedestal and like allows them to appreciate their partner more because like their partner is a human and they experience other humans. And like,
00:09:11
Jon McCray Jones
they understand why they're in They understand why they're in a relationship with that person.
Non-Monogamy and Relationship Satisfaction
00:09:15
Jon McCray Jones
Well, I think also like cheaters and like ethically non-monogamous people probably are in a similar boat with the ones who are satisfied in their relationship where they're not putting all this pressure on one person to be their absolute everything and check every single box. It's like, yeah, maybe you don't want to have like super freaky sex, but I can go off with this person and do that.
00:09:42
Jon McCray Jones
And I can be super content and come home and have a good time with you. And everyone's happy. Yeah. And the researcher, Justin Lay Miller has a podcast episode where he talks about cheating.
00:09:53
Jon McCray Jones
And basically the survey that he talks about found that most people who reported that they're cheating men or women reported that they still loved and cared about their partner hu and that like they still want to continue a relationship with their partner but for a multitude of reasons whether it's they also have feelings for this other person or it was a one-off throw-seeking experience or something like you said they just have like a kink for cheating or like they were really should have just been like a non-monogamous person
00:10:28
Jon McCray Jones
they had sex outside of their relationship or they developed feelings outside of their relationship and that doesn't mean that they lessened their feel for their partner i think that like the reality is the expensive way that humans can experience love and relationship is not congruent with the rigid version of monogamy that is imposed on the majority of people in like western culture but even when you start looking at different like cultures historically and even some cultures currently before court cultures currently and other cultures before colonization the ways that we experience relationships were vast and even the idea of like
00:11:13
Jon McCray Jones
a dominant monogamous society in practice never truly existed because people were always stepping on their relationships and having sex with other people who weren't inside of their, their binary exclusive relationship.
00:11:27
Jon McCray Jones
I think that like the ideas, or I think that like the idea that we have once existed in is like natural monogamous one person, each dynamic is a not, I think I know it's a myth.
00:11:40
Jon McCray Jones
Yeah, well, I think because also you know, we historically lived in very collectivist cultures before the more modern societies took place. So that was super normal. Like, yeah, I'm a woman and I'm having sex with multiple men.
00:11:58
Jon McCray Jones
And us and all our kids live in the same, you know, house area. And we're, they're all taking care of the kids together. mean, I think that people forget that like...
00:12:10
Jon McCray Jones
The history of monogamy is tied to... Ownership. Well, yeah, like, politics and economics, where, like, you need to know who your inheritance goes to when you start... When the idea of, like, property and individual property rights start increasing.
00:12:30
Jon McCray Jones
And most mammals don't practice monogamy. What I will say is that most birds do practice monogamy. And we don't know... why monogamy involved the humans and we don't know to the extent of like how many humans actively actively practiced lifelong bonding versus how many humans practice this monogamy in history for the idea of like inheritance rights and property rights and like who these workers belong to, workers meaning like children.
00:13:03
Jon McCray Jones
But like the idea that like there's one way to experience love in a relationship and romance for humans, I just don't think is accurate. I think it's very reductionist. yeah And I think that like the moral component behind monogamy being like a morally right thing to do was injected post-humorously, post-humorously is not the right word, was injected after the effect to justify the property and economic reasons for why you would like, why monogamy happens in society.
Cultural and Social Influences on Cheating
00:13:36
Jon McCray Jones
I think another misnomer that people don't understand is that cheating is always an indicator that someone wants to leave a relationship. When again, surveys don't back that then up Yeah.
00:13:49
Jon McCray Jones
Why do you think that's the case? Well, know, again, i think my idea of, like, these respondents is it's a lot of people who are truly non-monogamous, but they're trying to make a monogamous relationship work, and they can't help themselves but cheat, and they still very much love this partner that they're with and the life they've built and everything, but It's just very hard. I mean, i view being polyamorous the same way I view being bisexual or into kink.
00:14:28
Jon McCray Jones
It is truly an identity I can't change or suppress. And I think there's some people where they could go either way and they could swing non-monogamous or monogamous be happy.
00:14:40
Jon McCray Jones
But I'm very much all the way on the scale polyamorous. And I've never cheated. But... but I was always like, what's going on with me that i can never turn off my feelings for other people when I'm with someone?
00:14:57
Jon McCray Jones
And yeah cheating was always a fear my partners had. So i could see somebody they have maybe just a little less self-control than me just constantly falling down that rabbit hole.
00:15:11
Jon McCray Jones
But you can still be like very much happy in your relationship while also wanting to pursue something different with someone else. And I guess that like leads into like another idea is that like, what is your response to the idea that cheating makes you a bad person?
00:15:26
Jon McCray Jones
You know, i i wouldn't, I'll speak from my opinion. i wouldn't do it. And i do think, you know, the philosophy of like, what makes something a bad action,
00:15:40
Jon McCray Jones
it hurt someone and you know it's going to hurt someone if you are doing this action and you know your partner is going to be hurt you know they're going to be upset and you're still doing it I would say short term don't do it long term have a conversation about non-monogamy because even though like yeah sure I'm this person where if John did something outside of our boundaries like
00:16:12
Jon McCray Jones
you boundaries are fluid. And I think we would have some good conversations about it and figure out if we need to change stuff or what's the deeper thing going on. But, you know sadly, we live in a monogamous culture. So there's a lot of people where they're very hurt by cheating. And I think, right, you do have to have some nuance with that. Because if you're like,
00:16:38
Jon McCray Jones
throwing up over the fact that your boyfriend liked girls Instagram picture. I think like you do need to do some inner work about like why you are being triggered by this so much versus I can understand if you're like,
00:16:54
Jon McCray Jones
you built a whole life and have kids with this person and you thought you were monogamous and all of a sudden your trust is betrayed and you find out there's another woman. i can understand being hurt by that.
00:17:06
Jon McCray Jones
guess, like, my issue with, like, the way our society reacts to, like, the morality of cheating is, is your issue that someone's trust got violated? Like, if it was a similar action, but it was just lying about something different, like...
00:17:22
Jon McCray Jones
financial line or line about like associating with friends or like associating with a substance if you have a worse gut reaction to someone doing something sexually than like the other actions maybe like your issue is less about the violation of trust and more about the fact that we have this really weird puritanic and highly moralized view on sex i it's the same way that like you can talk it to someone else and they use the, about sex work and they use the term selling their body.
00:17:56
Jon McCray Jones
And as like, well, how do you feel about like the military construction jobs that require people to be on their feet all the time or jobs that like require people to be on call and are highly stressed out?
00:18:07
Jon McCray Jones
Are those people selling their body? And if you go, well, like, no, or it's different, then it's like, maybe what your issue is with sex and not with the act or the moral value of the act itself.
00:18:18
Jon McCray Jones
And I think that like, in american culture you can never disconnect the two that like maybe what you're feeling discussed towards is the sexuality aspect of it and more than the boundary breaking and again this is not to like gaslight people to be like cheat is not a big deal in your relationship it's to challenge people to unpack why cheating may be a big deal to them and it's and if it's more about the sex than the boundary crossing then maybe you should have that conversation Yeah, I do agree there is a weird pressure that's put on the cheating thing as opposed to like other breaking of trust.
00:19:02
Jon McCray Jones
Yeah, and I think that like gives into like goes into toxic monogamy with the idea of like there's a lot of over-police behaviors that comes with insecurity and sexuality that...
00:19:14
Jon McCray Jones
may or may not be cheating, but are treated as, like, wrongful acts because we have this status quo around exclusivity and sexuality and, like, weird rules policing behavior when it comes to, like, intimacy and, like, relationships, whether it's sexual or not with other people.
00:19:33
Jon McCray Jones
And I do think the overly connected connectivity we have in our society due to social media and an online presence has a lot to do with that because back in the day you know you would meet someone over time you would get to know their friends and family and people in their circle you would see them when you have dates planned you would call each other but either than that like unless you had something that was a major red flag happen like
00:20:09
Jon McCray Jones
some random girl calling him and him picking up the phone, you wouldn't really be suspicious of cheating versus now there's literally these people.
00:20:21
Jon McCray Jones
i want to make it neutral, but it's mainly girls online. We're like, they're saying stuff like scroll through his following. If one of the profiles glows, that's the girl. Now, you know, and it's like, if you're having a delusion that a profile picture is glowing. like Yeah.
00:20:42
Jon McCray Jones
And I think that's, like, the reality is that, like, social media doesn't add to this. We already have a culture of hyper-surveillance and policing and around sexuality, and that happens inside the relationship, too. And I think that, like...
00:20:57
Jon McCray Jones
And I think now of social media and people playing into these insecurities and, like, the idea that groups of people can now... egg on each other's insecurities whether that's different gender dating same gender dating whatever i think that you're seeing this epidemic of people obsessed around qd because we have this obsession with like policing sexuality and now we have the tools where you can do that like you said you can access somebody's entire communications with other people or
00:21:31
Jon McCray Jones
who their friends who have through like their followers on social media uh just so we don't run out of time do you want to play our game yeah uh cool and we could talk about like toxic monogamy next week because i've like a lot of our next podcast episode because i have thoughts on that so 15 actions uh cheating or not cheating and we can like go into a little bit nuance but we do have running short on time So, flirting at a bar or social event.
Debating Actions: Flirting, Messaging, and Bonds
00:22:06
Jon McCray Jones
That has to be, I feel like that has to be more nuanced. Yeah, because I'm non-monogamous, so that's in my boundaries. um But I would say if you're in a monogamous relationship, I don't see any reason for you to be flirting with other people.
00:22:23
Jon McCray Jones
Not to be, like, the annoying intellectual, but, like, you have to define flirting. Like, is this, like, actually, like... what is the intention? Cause like some people look at flirting as any type of like fun communication or like, is the person who's like judging ah if this person is 40 or not the partner who has like a lot of insecurities.
00:22:45
Jon McCray Jones
Is it like this person's actually flirting? Is the flirting just harmless like banter or is it like the intention to move forward in a dynamic?
00:22:58
Jon McCray Jones
Um, Fuck. This is supposed to be a yes or no game, but I'm gonna... That one's super subjective. It's complicated. ah Two, secretly messaging or texting an ex.
00:23:10
Jon McCray Jones
yeah Oh, yeah. I think that one's a yes. um Even in a non-monogamous relationship, I'd be like, what's going on? Accidentally developing a deep emotional bond with someone outside of your relationship.
00:23:24
Jon McCray Jones
Well, it can be... ah friendship i have very deep emotional bonds with my friends who i have no romantic entanglements with yeah and like i think that in a lot of like straight cultures is going to or a lot of cultures where you're attracted to one gender people are going to ask like what gender is this person but like being bisexual would like to challenge that because like i think you can develop deep platonic bonds with people of multiple genders and like oh yeah somebody's genitalia or gender presentation doesn't mean you can't be friends with them on a platonic level i mean it's so normal as a queer woman to have these very deep emotional friendships with people you're not romantically connected to of the same gender yes
00:24:17
Jon McCray Jones
um fuck it's complicated what is the intention uh number five four uh watching cam shows are engaging with only fan content i would say no i mean yeah i would say that one is complicated i think that like what is what is the conversation that you guys had about this specific situation?
00:24:47
Jon McCray Jones
But I also think that if you haven't talked about it, then I think no. Yeah, I think I could, like, I could see monogamous person being uncomfortable by that, especially with, like, cam girls. Like, you do develop a personal relationship at times, depending how much you're visiting their site and everything, but I could see it going either way.
00:25:12
Jon McCray Jones
Having a work spouse relationship.
00:25:18
Jon McCray Jones
This one is tough. Because when I was looking up stats, 31% of people, their affairs were workplace affairs. I'll just say, yeah, like most but affairs happen at work.
00:25:29
Jon McCray Jones
I guess, again, for me, it's complicated. It depends on the intention of this relationship. But this is like somebody of a different gender who like you feel a post-platonic relationship with. and, like, the goal at the time isn't to become sexual or romantic, then, like, I don't think so.
00:25:45
Jon McCray Jones
But also, if you're using a term more espoused, it may be... Yes. Yeah. so I guess I'll go with a yes. Yeah. Dancing intimately with someone else at a bar or club.
00:25:57
Jon McCray Jones
I think that's really, like, cultural-based. I was going to say as well, because, like, honestly... Like, it depends what it is. Obviously, like, I think grinding on, you know, like, butt-to-dick grinding is, like, pretty inherently sexual. Yeah.
00:26:15
Jon McCray Jones
But I think it's also, like, you know, i feel like in different cultures it's, like, super normal of, like, oh, no one's dancing with my friend's wife. I'm gonna, like, go dance with her.
00:26:30
Jon McCray Jones
And... Even historically, too, like, I could see people of our parents' generations, you just kind of, like, platonically dance with people. Yeah. assembling Accepting a lap dance at a strip club.
00:26:45
Jon McCray Jones
I don't personally think strip clubs are cheating because, like, I view it as, like, a service you're paying for. yeah the way that I view it is that, like...
00:26:59
Jon McCray Jones
As long as this wasn't previously communicated in your relationship, I don't think getting lap dance counts as cheating. ah Kissing on the cheek or lips, but in a non-romantic context.
00:27:14
Jon McCray Jones
I don't think so. Like, I think a pack is not cheating. If it's like... If the intentions aren't there for it to be romantic or sexual.
00:27:26
Jon McCray Jones
again it depends on the culture because there's a lot of cultures where kissing on the cheek is very platonic but i think like in american culture if i was monogamous i would feel pretty sus vibes if like my partner's friend was kissing them on the cheek i i don't know how i feel about it i think maybe i'm indoctrinated into like non-monogamous culture for too long i think that like If it is, like, a very platonic, like, I mean, like, I guess, again, like, for me, if, like, one of your girlfriends did it, I don't think I would, like, feel a certain way or one of your gay friends did it, so, like, why would I feel a certain way if, like, a cis straight guy did it?
00:28:08
Jon McCray Jones
But I think there's a context to that. Like, obviously, if one of my girlfriends or gay friends is doing it, it comes across very platonically, but, like, as a woman, we're, like,
00:28:21
Jon McCray Jones
that's fair in this culture the way cis straight men act if a cis straight man is kissing me on the cheek he is like 200 trying to flirt with no that's no that's actually really fair do
00:28:38
Jon McCray Jones
you just want to speed run through these because we're catching up on a half an hour yeah uh keeping a dormant dating profile active yes Yeah, like if you know that this doorrmant dormant dating profile is active, it's not like something you just forgot about, yes.
Trust Issues and Conclusion
00:28:52
Jon McCray Jones
ah Sharing personal secrets with someone other than a partner. Complicated. I think it's fine to talk to people about what's going on as long as like it's something your partner is comfortable with you sharing. That's exactly what I was complicated about. like If it's about something between you and your partner, I don't think that's cheating either, but think it's violation trust.
00:29:14
Jon McCray Jones
So I guess my answer is no uh hiding or deleting text message and social media interactions oh yeah super sus sus but like i ah need more context for cheating that's not necessarily cheating that's just like why are you being sneaky yeah uh role-playing sexual scenarios online think that's yes yeah uh seeking emotional validation from others through online platforms no no All right. Well, I think we're just under a half an hour. i'm ready to call this today if you are. Yeah.
00:29:46
Jon McCray Jones
Fun. So this is the Fun With Sex Podcast. I'm John. I'm Natalie. Thank you for listening.