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Sleepy Games' Treehouse of Horrors Part V
14 Plays6 days ago
Featuring 'dark' musicals like 'The Nightmare Before Christmas'. Also, a review of 'Joker: Folie à Deux', which some still may not know is a musical. You know cause Jokers Are Wild ;)
Next Week: More Hallowe'en goodies and 'Coraline' (2009).
Recommended
Transcript
00:00:03
Speaker
You're listening to the Sleepy Games Podcast.
00:00:43
Speaker
It's our job! Everybody's free!
00:01:05
Speaker
Well hello there and welcome back to another episode of a sleepy games podcast. This is another treehouse of horrors episode with me as always the ever lovable James games.
00:01:26
Speaker
Well, that was good. That was good. Yeah, so I was trying to do like a scary voice. I sounded like Batman. Yeah, you want yeah I it. and we're um we're not doing We're not doing the scaredness. Yeah, I'll leave you with the scary voices and all the scary noises. Maybe I will try another scary voice at the end of the episode. Yeah, there you go. yeah but yeah so Do it when we least expect it. Okay.
00:01:53
Speaker
ah probably sound like a naked skiter zone yeah Anyways. No break. No bathroom breaks. Yeah. So today's theme is like dark musicals. So we're basically we're doing musicals that have more of a Halloween feel to them. So I guess James was telling me before the show that he Probably watched something sound like I guess recently. I'm taking shit or something. Yeah. We want to go into some musicals before we go into the Joker 2 talk. We do.
00:02:28
Speaker
and there was one I watched that I remember coming out when I was in high school and I i guess I didn't I never had interest in it I guess because I guess that I was like 17 18 I guess I thought it was like more like for kids and all that actually like sorry sorry to interject beforehand but before we kind of dive into this like yeah do you personally like musicals Ooh, okay, so im I'm not someone that typically goes out of their way to watch a musical. I mean, even like if we're just talking about musicals in in general, I mean, I'm from Baltimore and I know and know Hairspray is the big musical for Baltimore. right And I'm like, and that movie is just anime. I know like a lot of people like you know praise that movie so much and you know have so much love for it in Baltimore.
00:03:25
Speaker
But even with biases and everything, I'm still just like, I see the movie as a movie. And I see if it's entertaining, if it hooks me, if it has a good story, good characters, all that. But so usually,
00:03:42
Speaker
I mean, bena do you have like Wizard of Oz, like wizard of Wizard of Oz, I love, you know, but that's such an outlier when it comes to musicals. That's like one of the best movies of all time. And then like, right yeah and then you have like Sound of Music where like ah all these songs are iconic. And I feel like more recent musicals, you know, don't don't hit those same highs. um but But I'm not to say that I'm mixing them all. Like, the the the I think there's,
00:04:09
Speaker
i I'm just not someone who just goes out of the way to see one. so but But I am open to them if they're done right, if if if they're you know made well and all that. But wait, how about you? Are you a fan of musicals?
00:04:25
Speaker
ah We've been really guiding musicals on this show. What's that? We've been really talking about musicals on the podcast. No, we haven't. I mean, uh, when I was, when I was like definitely younger, I hated them. Like I hated them. I hated musical episodes of, of TV sitcoms. Like, I just, I didn't like any of it.
00:04:45
Speaker
As I've gotten older, I think I've, I guess I've kind of broadened my horizons a bit. Like, yeah definitely there are some good musicals out there, but it it is not, like you said, it's not really something that I myself go out of my way to check out either. It's not to say I haven't watched some musicals that I enjoy, but the one thing I would say is that even if I enjoy it,
00:05:08
Speaker
There's a high chance that I won't watch it again. And it's got nothing to do with it not being great. It could be a phenomenal musical, phenomenal movie, but it's just like, I just won't watch it again. It looks good. Good one time.
00:05:19
Speaker
probably enough for me so that's kind of my thing on musicals but obviously there are some good musicals out there and uh one of the ones that we're going to talk about today have seen more than once and i enjoy watching it more than once so there are exceptions to every rule okay uh and i think this is going to tie into what you're talking about um good so okay and and i know I know with a few we're going to talk about in the future, so I'll be curious if if you ever seen the musical, The Corpse Bride.
00:05:52
Speaker
You know, it's weird. like I feel like I have, but I think I was really, really, really not sober for it. That was not what I thought you were going to say.
00:06:07
Speaker
so flow maybe healthy
00:06:12
Speaker
Well, I just like thinking about like this being being just junk or whatever watch this movie i Well, it might have been edibles ah and alcohol. I don't know. like because i it's it's a movie I swear I remember seeing it, but I couldn't tell you anything about it. And I don't want that to be because the movie is not good or anything. I do not remember it, but I think I did watch it at some point. But that's not the movie's fault.
00:06:40
Speaker
It's my own doing Okay, so so you don't remember anything about this film no nothing nothing okay, so ah Allow me to you know to give you a few reminders of it. Maybe you'll refresh your memory yeah um so This is this is directed by Tim Burton and it's the same animation style as ah Yeah, as night night maybe before Christmas. Yeah, so all at the all at the the claymation figures and all that and and I was surprised how much I enjoyed this film and
00:07:17
Speaker
And it is a musical, but it's not like that. It's not in your face like music the whole time. I would say it's like 50 50 when it comes to progressing the characters and then musical numbers. So it was a good one. Okay. Sorry. Is this the one where it starts off where she's trying to escape just try to have a good time or something like that? Is that?
00:07:39
Speaker
No, so so no, so I'm thinking of something else. You think of something else. So yeah I wouldn't blind to this. all All I knew was Tim Bern directed this. yeah to say it's It's similar to Nightmare Before Christmas. Johnny Depp is one of the voice actors and ah Helena Baum Carter is one of the voice actors. Right. That's all I knew going into it.
00:08:03
Speaker
So popping on, cause it wasn't for us talking about it last episode. I wasn't even thought to watch it. I saw it pop up on a on max. I'm like, you know what? This would be good for the show. So, and so I put it on in like and like the first musical number I was, I was liking already. I'm like, okay, this song is telling the story. I'm getting an idea of who this family is. So the whole basis of the story is they, this family,
00:08:31
Speaker
is trying to marry marry into another family. It's actually pretty fun. It's a good concept because um the family, so the parents of Johnny Depp, like his character is like probably like 20 something years old. yeah and And then there this family is set up with another family and their daughter is around the same age. But the funny thing is, is both families think they're marrying into money when both families actually have no money.
00:09:01
Speaker
Which is hilarious. ah So already, I love love the premise. I love that. how How both think they're marrying into money and they' and they're both like broke. Yeah. And that fits like like the dark, ah like very like ominous nature of the whole film. Like it's very like gritty. You know, it's not, it's not, you know, just like that made it before Christmas. It's not like pretty to look at, you know?
00:09:25
Speaker
Like there's not flashy colors everywhere. It's a lot of blacks and grays and okay and then hints of blue here and there. um But what once once they ah they they they do like a um a wedding ah rehearsal,
00:09:44
Speaker
and And a giant depth character is just like, he's he's just a blabbering mess. you know he He can't do anything right. like He's messing up his vows. He said is said his, what was it, was his future mother-in-law on fire by accident when he was like, laying the candles? I'm like, oh, man. It's just a whole face palm moment. Like, what wait wait what's wrong with this guy? But but but but the woman he's marrying into, like you know she thinks he's cute. She thinks he's funny. like you know It's messing up and all this. I'm like, OK, I can see this working.
00:10:14
Speaker
So then, you know're we're not even at the corpse bride part yet. So I was actually assuming that that daughter like was gonna get killed off and end up being turned into a like ah a corpse bride or whatever, because she was wearing the wedding dress and all that. But what happened was, so he's like he's like ah singing the he's like so he like goes into the woods and he's practicing his vows. And the last part of the vows, like he he puts a ring on what he thinks is a twig.
00:10:44
Speaker
but it actually was like a skeleton finger. So he puts the ah the the the ring on the skeleton figure and like finishes the vowels and that like awakens the corpse. So the the the whole corpse bribed premise turns into like, you know that corpse is like, oh, this is my true love now. He confessed his love to me. And Johnny Depp's character is like, whoa, no, this is a mistake. So the whole time it goes into that. But then it kind of turns into like Coco. yeah You ever see the movie Coco?
00:11:14
Speaker
I have seen Coco actually very recently. So he kind of he kind of goes into this like another world yeah where you where you have like you have the dead, um like ah all the dead of this town. um And the cool the cool i i guess contrast they they did was how how how alive the dead people are and then the people that are alive, how dead they are inside.
00:11:42
Speaker
I thought that was very interesting how they did so I'm watching this film all this introspective shit going on like this is a kids movie of like this it's like dark subject matter you're going into like like a very unique love story where you hear you're you're trying like a living person is falling in love with a with a dead person and they're trying to make this work the whole time. And meanwhile, you have these musical numbers that tell a good story. They ah they ah um ah they enhance the characters more and everything. so The movie is only an hour and 15 minutes long. Ooh, I like that. It flew by.
00:12:23
Speaker
Right. Like, there's no fluff in there. it It just gets to the point. It gets to the message it's trying to convey. And I'm like, I don't know why I never watched this. And I feel like this film is very underrated because, you know,
00:12:37
Speaker
oh all the All the love and admiration goes to Nightmare Before Christmas. but i think the cop's ride is i mean I think it's still a step below Nightmare Before Christmas, but I think it's like almost as good. I really do. um so If you're looking for a scoop is a spooky new movie, if you're open to watching a musical where it's not like too much with the songs, it's actually pretty funny and more adult than you think,
00:13:03
Speaker
i highly I highly recommend it. I don't want to go into too many spoilers. I think i think just setting up the premise for you is enough. Yeah, no, it's a it's like you said, right? like i mean if i If I see a pop up somewhere, I might i might give it a try. i'd act The thing is too, is like I'm not sure I was aware that that was a musical to be honest, even though something I have watched it. yeah yeah call I probably threw it on in pastel five minutes after it came to you i think like the next morning or so, my guess. Because I want to say this probably because ah yeah it's not too heavy on the music. I mean, there's probably almost like five or six songs in total. And, you know, if you're having almost not over a course of an hour, that's almost not a musical. That's just that's just a movie with music in it. ah what but but But these are original songs.
00:13:55
Speaker
These are original songs that progressed the story. And I feel like without those songs, the movie would be worse. That's kind of like, uh, some of the old school Disney movies where they weren't musicals, but they, you know, they'd have musical numbers in them, even though there was a, you know, you know what I mean? Like, it's, you know, they used to do it back in the day. Well, yeah. He says, I mean, so if we're comparing, like, if you have a movie like, you know, Lion King movie, like Aladdin. Right. Like, well, Aladdin's a little heavy on the music, I think, actually, but.
00:14:27
Speaker
Yeah, but but but but but I feel like it's similar in that sense. We're like, right? All those songs. It's not constant music. it Yeah. it's some ah So in admissions, I guess you could call it. Yeah. So I guess like, because I'm actually looking like IMDB right now, because it's like, because it shares like the type of genre. So like and it has musical on here. Okay. Well, I mean, yeah, sure.
00:14:49
Speaker
Yeah. So, um, but you you can tell that I guess this wasn't a passing project with Tim Bern, because I guess he wanted to do the stop motion and everything again. Because remember, remember, ah ah for our listeners, Tim Bern did not direct Name It Before Christmas. He did not direct it. A lot of people get confused with that. But who did direct it? Um, it was i I thought you know it. You like your directors, man. Why are you going to call me out like that? so You can't say that and not say who it is. That's kind of a douche move. His name is Henry Selleck.
00:15:35
Speaker
um So he he also directed um James and the Giant Peach and Coraline. ah I actually do really like Coraline, but it's not much of a musical, I don't think. That's a good movie. No, see, I assume I'm watching Coraline too, but yeah, Coraline is not a musical, so that's why I watch Spry. Have you seen Coraline? I have not, no. Oh, ah you I mean, you would enjoy it. like if ah yeah so Okay, so so that this seems like a good movie I should watch for next week.
00:16:05
Speaker
It's not bad. I mean, I wasn't going to make movie recommendations, obviously. We'll get to that later. But like if you haven't seen it and I mean, it's good. It's really good. I think I'm learning I have much more of an appreciation with this type of animation because of the work that goes into it. It's so unique. Like we don't get films like this a lot anymore.
00:16:30
Speaker
um Yeah, I guess. Yeah. So it It makes you think, too, I feel like with the corpse brand, I feel like they they could make this into like a live action version of it. It would it it would work. Right. Well, and I mean.
00:16:46
Speaker
It's one of those things where it's like, it's funny because like we're talking about this and then, you know, Johnny Depp, Helena Bonham Carter, they're the ones that did ah another one of the musicals. I'm sure we're going to be discussing. Yeah. So it's like that they they did this like right before they did the other one. Right.
00:17:05
Speaker
So, I guess that's a good segue then. Yeah. Yeah, might as well. Which one would you want to discuss first since we've technically brought up both of them. Bring on the Sweeney Todd, baby. Let's do it. Sweeney Todd. Sounds good.
00:17:20
Speaker
So, did you watch Sweeney Todd when it the kind of first came out? or Oh, I'm glad you guys. I actually watched it in theaters. Oh, it was I think it was a musical. I think it was the first. Oh, no. I did not know it was a musical. Oh, okay. So I think I like I don't know if I stayed away from all the trailers or of the or maybe the commercials didn't advertise that it was a musical.
00:17:51
Speaker
I mean, I remember knowing it was musical. So I don't think they were trying to do like a bait and switch from what I recall. But maybe, you know, maybe my memory is fooling me. Well, and you know, i in and because I was in college, so I was what, 19 at the time. um And I didn't even know Sweeney Todd was a play on Broadway. i mean i didn't I didn't know that either. I still didn't know that until you just said right now. Yeah. Yeah. so So yeah. So it was a Broadway show first. OK. And then Tim Bern took that Broadway show and made it into a movie. Right. Yeah. And my my parents actually saw it like saw it last year and on Broadway. They said it was great. But when I talk about the Broadway show, we're talking about the movie.
00:18:40
Speaker
um But um yeah, so going into Washington, Washington theaters and the first musical never comes on. I'm like, wait a minute. Is this what I think it is? But I think I think what threw me off is it being an R rated musical. That's something I didn't like fathom at the time. Yeah.
00:19:04
Speaker
or like knew it like like it could be done in like a, you know, cause it's rated R like violence, like murder. oh like I feel like if it's been done, it it certainly has not been done any any kind of mainstream type way, I would say. Yeah.
00:19:22
Speaker
But yeah, it was a very memorable theater experience for me. um I was i was with one of my best friends. And he didn't know it was a musical either. But we we actually both ended up loving it. And now yes it's still one of my favorite musicals ever. And this the thing is, I've ah um've actually I've seen it twice. Yeah.
00:19:43
Speaker
um the But ah what I will will say is that the first time I watched it, I actually had to pause the movie, and this was kind of at a time when I was like, I do this more commonly these days, probably because I'm losing my fucking hearing, but I put the subtitles on because I couldn't understand them. Like at all. And then the second time I was watching, I was watching it with somebody, and then we started watching it, and I was just like, you need the subtitles.
00:20:14
Speaker
Like, oh yeah, you're right. that That was, I think, I wouldn't say it was like a a complaint. I just just could not understand the accents. It was very, very thick, especially when they were singing. Oh, yeah, that's true. That's for me. I don't know. Maybe maybe now at at this point in my life, i've I've hung out with the obviously more people from, I guess, across the pond, so to speak. So maybe maybe it wouldn't be so jarring. But I know the first time I i watched it, it was like, and mean I mean, everyone was a British actor except for Johnny Depp. Yeah. And it was so it was it was a bit hard at at at times to
00:20:51
Speaker
kind of But I did enjoy the movie like I don't I like it's it is an interesting take like and I remember the songs not being too bad either some catchy ones cuz You're not kidding. Like there were songs I would play or downloaded on a Download illegally, right? um ah ah I think was lime wire at the time um I love him more yeah love it And me and my friend, we just like sing it just randomly. i mean I remember the... I remember the one song, it was like the guy who confessing his love to the Joanna. I remember this song was like, I feel you, Joanna. I remember that very well. Oh, my yeah, yeah. That's actually really, yeah. And that that is the makings of like a good musical is like, you can't can't shit the bed on the music, which some musicals really do. Like it's like,
00:21:47
Speaker
You know they they're okay you're just like yeah like it just sounds like something I was taking a crap and just shout out this five minute song and they're just like oh yeah that's good enough just throw it in there and you're like you know they they really do have to be memorable to the point where it's like I want to play this song you know on its own like without even watch the movie because it's such a catchy song.
00:22:07
Speaker
Yeah, then he had the one with ah Alan Rickman and Johnny Depp, little duet with like, pretty women. Alan Rickman, that's right. Pretty women. Yeah. And yeah, in the those scenes, even though they're singing songs, it's still...
00:22:23
Speaker
It's still intense because you don't know what's going to happen like as far as someone getting murdered because like you have this demon barber, he has this really the close up knife and you're like, oh my God, he could slow this down any second. Like, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God. And and the way they film, the way they filmed the the deaths or the slinging of the throat, because I'm not good with blood in like real life.
00:22:48
Speaker
But for some reason it was done in an artistic way. im like i'm I'm like fine, which is weird. Because sometimes you have these throats that are slit in this movie where it's it's ah it's it's like a fountain. you know It's it's like almost like it's like cascading down the body. It's like oh it's almost like it's like it's like hauntingly beautiful. That's why it's weird.
00:23:12
Speaker
Me saying this, I sound like a psycho, but I'm sure that's what they were going for. I get what you're saying. There can be an artistic approach to things like that. I remember the opening credits. I remember it showed blood going into these cogs and wheels or whatever, and you just follow this dripping blood going through everything.
00:23:42
Speaker
This is so cool. um So i I was just so taken i so just amazed by so much. that This film was pulling off and having these, you know, and these actors are are a plus actors doing all this. I mean, I mean, as far as the scene goes, I mean, guys, Johnny Depp isn't he's not the best singer, but he I felt like he did what he needed to do. um And
00:24:10
Speaker
I still can't remember talking about this movie. like I'm not gushing over it. i'm not no It's a good movie. like ah It's like you said, right? it's like i don't I don't care for musicals, but it's like it's one I enjoy like and I did enjoy it. I haven't watched this since it came out because I watched it kind of almost back to back. Like I said, the two viewings. but Yeah, it wasn't like somebody was putting it on and I was like rolling my eyes like, oh, I gotta sit through this again. I was like, actually, it was a pretty good movie for a musical. And like, yeah, I'd probably give it another watch on some Halloween or something like that in the future. Yeah, I think if you're able to capture me with some of the songs, especially with some of the actors portraying these songs, he even had a Sacha Baron Cohen coming in for one of, he had just one number he did.
00:25:01
Speaker
And that was at the peak of his career, I think, around the time. Yeah, I think Borat and Tal Dega Nights just came out. Yeah. And this was like the year after both of those. So yeah, he was sitting pretty. And yeah, he had a good musical number, and then his death scene was well done. I mean, the whole story was this fascinating, because remember, not knowing the Broadway show,
00:25:29
Speaker
And just having this demon barber working with the the owner of this restaurant where they make meat pies. And they're really they're literally cooking the people that they're killing and feeding it to the people. I'm just like, what is this story? Yeah, it's interesting. It's so dark. To say the least.
00:25:51
Speaker
But that that will always be one of my favorite musicals. It was such a memorable experience. i mean I guess maybe I am nostalgic to it too. but I could, i can read I think I've rewatched it a few times. Well, like, yeah, and it would be a different, certainly a different experience to have seen it on the big screen, I imagine, especially with, yeah, like, and I didn't, it was a video, I don't even, I was probably a video rental if I, and I'm not, it's it's interesting because like, I wouldn't have chosen, I think, for the most part, but I think I was just like, maybe I was just trying to broaden my horizons at the time, and I was like, maybe, I was like, because I like Johnny Depp and,
00:26:29
Speaker
You know, and I like that there' the the dark twist to it, obviously I knew vaguely what it was about, because I've seen some trailers for it, so... Yeah, and if we're talking live-action, I think that was the first musical i've seen I saw in theaters. It glad that that was the first. That would've been a good one. Yeah. Okay, so, is a is it time for the nightmare?
00:26:55
Speaker
Yes, yes it is. The Nightmare Before Christmas. This is the one everybody loves. It is hard not to love it and it's got some very catchy songs. What's this? What's this?
00:27:13
Speaker
That wasn't the first to do a musical in that animation style. ah Well, yeah, and it was like... Well, I guess, yeah other than like the all this Christmas and snowman ones, I don't count those. It was, yeah, I don't know. It's it's interesting because, and then this is like something for me too, is that like, I want to say this movie came out, not like what, in the 94, 95 or something like that, give or take? It was 93. Okay, it was 93. And I watched it, I would have watched it on a video.
00:27:49
Speaker
uh not in theaters at the time but i watched it on video back then and i remember liking it despite and i know at that age i had a hatred for musicals so i mean i think that really speaks volumes to how good of a movie it was and how good the music was because it's like it's hard not to like a musical if you're getting into the music right true Yeah, but I think like every song is a banger in that movie. I agree. Like ah it's it's just really well done and in that regard. I mean, yeah, I wouldn't say it's got like what's got an interesting plot, but
00:28:31
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. I don't know how much you want to dive into this one. I mean, it is a bit of a classic. I'm sure like if you haven't seen it, see it. If you've seen it, you know what we're talking about. I mean, it's hard to talk about like anything with this that hasn't already been said. um But but there was one thing I could be one thing that is unique, I guess I could talk about. So there was a game growing up I played called Kingdom Hearts 2.
00:28:55
Speaker
And in that one, it goes into a whole bunch of Disney worlds and you kind of battle some of like you battle you kind of battle the villains from certain movies. And we went to Halloweentown in that video game. And that was one of my favorite parts of the game was was your character is literally dressed up like a character in the Halloweentown. So already you're in this cool cool looking get up.
00:29:21
Speaker
And then you become friends with Jack Skellington, and Jack Skellington becomes a part of your party, and he fights alongside you. So you're beating all these motherfuckers up, like your character and Jack Skellington, and then you go between Halloween Town fighting baddies, and you even go to the Christmas Town to fight baddies, you go save Santa over there, you go back to Halloween Town and you fight the boogeyman,
00:29:50
Speaker
That was such a fun boss battle. It was like a huge epic boss battle, like fighting the Boogeyman. And I think they did throw one of the musical numbers into the game, and you kind of get to incorporate yourself into it, which is kind of cool. But it just shows how classic it is and how good for them to put that film into that video game. I had no idea this was like... Thing I think I've kind of heard about that video game does a how much is that Super Nintendo? No, no, this was on PlayStation PlayStation. Yeah. Okay. I think that too. Yes. So yes, I play this. Okay. Yeah, so This game had had like you could go like parts the Caribbean you go to Aladdin early 2000s video game then. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I It was very popular. It got such a big following. I think there's three games now. So this is Kingdom Hearts. Kingdom Hearts 1, Kingdom Hearts 2, and Kingdom Hearts 3. And I think there's going to be a fourth one coming out in a year or two. This is quite strange to me, James. I had a PS2. I had no idea about this game. I feel like I missed out. I was someone who was into the action RPGs.
00:31:06
Speaker
Right. Kind of like a Final Fantasy kind of deal? Well, so that's the best part about Kinema Art. So they incorporate Final Fantasy and Disney. Okay. And it sounds outlandish as hell. Like, how the hell does this work? But it somehow works. Like, you literally have characters from my favorite video. So that's actually what sold me.
00:31:28
Speaker
They incorporate characters from Final Fantasy VII into Kingdom Hearts. Okay. so So, you know, I have my boy Cloud Strife. ah with the hero in Kingdom Hearts. and you know and that That was when voice acting was first introduced into the PS2 games and everything. ye so I got to hear Cloud speak and everything. I thought that was the coolest thing. i got what they do like what what he'd said because what When you play an original game and you have an idea of what he would sound like in your head, then actually hearing him.
00:32:02
Speaker
That was always cool to me. Yeah, I know what you mean. And then just being able to jump from different movies and fight villains from those movies, I thought that was the coolest thing in the world, you know? it you yeah mean And you're selling me on it, so... Yeah! I just had no idea this was a thing. Yeah, yeah I mean, I highly recommend it if you still have ah an old PlayStation. Well, I don't. It unfortunately completely shit the bed on me and stopped working, so...
00:32:30
Speaker
no do you have you have a ps4 or ps3 i stopped at the ps2 and then i think i the last consoles i've had i had the ps2 and then i had the we was the last two consoles i personally owned i have played uh i think i've played ps3 i played uncharted on that but it wasn't mine uncharted is a pretty cool game and then love uncharted i played them all yeah i have played on the switch um But yeah, in terms of consoles that I've owned, PS2 was the last one. So that's why I was like, it's kind of sad that I didn't play this game because it's right up my alley. so
00:33:12
Speaker
But anyways, we're talking about dark musicals. I know, I know, I know. No, actually, it's good that you did that. We don't talk about video games, despite the title of our podcast being Sleepy Games. So we should, we need to interject it every now and then. Otherwise we're going to use a bunch of liars.
00:33:33
Speaker
Huh? Yeah, I thought I was fitting the photo in there because I remembered like that was one of my favorite parts of that game. No, I agree. I mean like that. and Even with that, it makes me appreciate the movie more, so. You should, yeah. oh and so It is a good movie, a classic, as I would say. Yeah, I don't really think that there's too too much more to dive into with Nightmare Before Curse Master. Yeah, should we get into the main theme? i We might as well.
00:34:02
Speaker
We might as well. All right, so <unk> or some of our favorite musicals aside, sadly, we have to go into this one. I'll have a way to introduce it. ah
00:34:19
Speaker
OK, I'm curious. I think I'm going to let you go first because possibly I might not be as a ah brutal as I feel like you're going to be.
00:34:31
Speaker
um So, i I went into this nit like knowing the reviews it had, but still I i want to be as open-minded as I can when I go into a film. okay And i try to I want to try and enjoy it and for what it is.
00:34:50
Speaker
Okay, before we dive into this one, I guess, I need to know, did you like the first one? We don't need to go in a big exploration of it. I just kind of want to get the gist. Did you like the first one? Did you think it was well done? Yes. Okay. I did really like the first one. The best part of the first movie is the performance by Joaquin Phoenix. Okay. Because a lot of the big...
00:35:16
Speaker
The criticism with the first one is it is a lot. It is. It takes a lot from Morris Scorsese's films. There's always a comparison between types with Taxi Driver and Kings of Pain. Right. I could see that for sure. um But i so I still I still think it's unique enough on its own where it's it's still its own thing. But it does borrow elements from those films. It's hard. You can't deny that. Yeah. And I think even the director himself, he even said he's like, yeah, I did.
00:35:44
Speaker
yeah like sue me you know um but yeah so I definitely enjoyed the first one ah I think we watched it once I saw it in theaters and um Yeah, i I mean, it had like, it did what needed to do. It was a unique kind of joker. Yeah. It's a joker we haven't seen before. um It separates out from all the all the other jokers we've seen on screen. And yeah, I thought it had a good, I mean, it's mean there's basically a big message about, you know,
00:36:27
Speaker
mental health and everything. But right yeah um but it felt it felt like a fit but in relation to the Joker. So that's what made it work.
00:36:38
Speaker
Yeah, the one thing I'll say about that one is that for a comic book movie, especially being in the midst of comic book movies as as as we are, ah it's a very grounded story. Mm hmm. So for anyone that I guess that hasn't seen it, it's it's kind of like it it's realistic, I guess it is it is believable. So.
00:37:02
Speaker
But anyways, I just kind of want to know what your take on the first one was before we hear your what I imagine are going to be very favorable opinions of the second one. So I was surprised how bored I was with the second one.
00:37:20
Speaker
um with when and I watched a recap of the first movie right before watching this, and i like seeing how it ended, I had ideas in my head as far as where it could go.
00:37:36
Speaker
yeah And I thought it was going to go there at times, and they when it did it, I'm like, oh no, it's just going to be going to the same two places, the whole movie. Right. And then right ah that and they it just threw musical numbers in there that had nothing yeah to do with the story or enhance the characters anyway. It's just there.
00:38:01
Speaker
And it's funny that you talk about just the two places because the the thing that I'm sure I'm not the only one to make this observation. I just don't understand where that budget went. Dude, I'm so glad you mentioned that because this this is a $200 million dollars movie. Where did the money go? And you have to have to ask yourself, okay, when it's a sequel,
00:38:24
Speaker
you have you you pay your ah you You pay Walking Phoenix a lot more shirt from the first and the second movie. still You're paying Lady Gaga a shit ton, I'm sure, to do this movie. The director's getting a shit ton to do the second movie. It's like they're being thrown cash, and I guarantee okay the director was told, you could do whatever you want. right Here's your check. do like You have full control of this film. No studio interference.
00:38:53
Speaker
Even if you you spent a hundred million of that on on on on just the wages Which I think is probably a little bit high anyways cuz I think the first where the the first movie was under a hundred million Where where did the other hundred million go? I know yeah, yeah yeah yeah right I'm not saying it was like a badly shot movie or any late but it just yeah kind of struck me like a play almost like it it didn't like there's There's almost there's three or four sets tops like there's there's no special effects There's there's nothing that seemed like it was even remotely expensive to do It's funny that we we talked about Godzilla minus one last season and I was a million dollar budget Yes
00:39:35
Speaker
and you see the two hundred million dollars like and I'm starting to think like it has to be horseshit somebody is just pocketing a crap ton of cash like there cannot be that cost that much money to make that movie but maybe that's just me I had I had to throw in my two cents for that one. but but yeah I don't want to just generalize everything about the movie. I'd rather go into more specifics. yeah so so i'll go By all means, yes. I'll go into more of the good, what I liked and like so far. And we're going to spoilers because if you haven't seen it by now, you know you can just you can skip it. just just just You don't need to watch this. good but but ah
00:40:17
Speaker
I shouldn't put my review up yet. So the things I like, I like the opening scene. The whole animation scene. And the beginning of the film. That was nice. And that was refreshing. and I like what they did with... ah ah with, what was his shadow? It was like him, his, him and his his jetto base yeah, like the shadow was like the Joker and like yeah him was like Arthur, you know? And and and I like how they portrayed that in animation. that worked That worked very well, I thought. ah And then getting to, getting to the prison, it says it just, it feels like a prison.
00:41:00
Speaker
Nothing special about, but I, you know, I, I love the, I love Brendan Gleason. I loved him as the main kind of guard that was there. Cause he's always a good actor. He always does well. Yeah.
00:41:13
Speaker
ah And as far as another scene, I liked the courtroom scene with Gary Pebbles.
00:41:27
Speaker
yeah no no Is it but pebbles or puddles? hu I think it was puddles. A dwarf character from the first movie, um he he makes a return and I thought that was the biggest standout of the film. Because I like how they incorporate the scene that you know where where the where where Arthur spared his life right And I didn't even think about that going to this film of like how that has affected him. And really, it scarred him.
00:42:05
Speaker
yeah Because here you have Arthur, who was the only one nice to ah gary Gary Puddles. and But yet, because of that, it almost like made it worse. Because like for him that ah the trauma he has now of witnessing the other guy getting killed by him and then being spared, it's like, how do you go through the rest of your life like and just be normal?
00:42:31
Speaker
and And that's one of the things of a lot of a kind of slasher flicks that, you know, doesn't get discussed is the the lasting trauma for the survivors. Yes. Yes. And I thought that was very well done. And it it did go it did go into the theme, I guess, overall of what the movie was trying to say of him because of that. ah Arthur, if you notice, I'm not calling him Joker because he's not Joker.
00:43:00
Speaker
um he He feels for him, he cares about him. right Joker would never care about anybody. um the joker yeah he's and Even even with ah even with ah with, it's not Harley, is it just Lee?
00:43:19
Speaker
or is it Well, I mean, I think her, I think it is, it's Harle, it's Lee, but it's it's still Harley Quinn. It's like, it's still her. Like, it's yeah still like, it's a never a do a new spin on on the character. like I think her actual name is, it was Harley Quinn, but she just goes by Lee.
00:43:36
Speaker
yeah and a camera sir Yeah, and I kind of liked how they used her character to manipulate Arthur to be more like the Joker. right for him For her to try and sway him more that way. yeah And then ultimately, no, I'm not the Joker.
00:43:54
Speaker
um and all that. But like, I just feel with what the first movie set up, it just felt like this one just wanted to undo everything the first movie did. You know what I'm trying to say? ah Well, yes. And I feel that I mean i I could be completely wrong here like I don't I can't say that I've looked into a lot of reviews I know that they haven't been good it's been you know doing all the the wrong things at the box office essentially um but I feel like
00:44:33
Speaker
there's almost like some sort of pressure to make the movie that way because they don't want to glorify the character that was kind of happening from the first movie and you know and and I don't like like I said I don't usually talking about this it is kind of relevant because it's like the Joker is a he is a character that is idolized in the wrong ways ah and And I feel like that was part of the reason they made the movie this way. is that it there was and And I feel like it's it's like outside pressure, outside of the movie, to make it that way.
00:45:09
Speaker
Yeah, it just seems if, cause you know, if we didn't go in the music, music numbers really quick, like you could take out every musical number and still have the same story. Like you could, nothing. Yeah, and I gotta say like some of the music was a little on the weak side. Yeah, nothing's memorable. Well, and the ones that are songs that already existed, they weren't written specifically for the movie and I can't say that. There's better renditions of them.
00:45:38
Speaker
yeah yeah so yeah like it's it was an interesting it was an interesting thing like i feel like the movie probably would have benefited more by not being a musical yes i absolutely agree and i would have shortened it down because it is it is a bit long like it it didn't need to be that long in my mind yeah i thought you could do like a tight hour and a half movie you could and i actually this is the thing for me is that like uh i i i mean if you're not done it's finally i mean obviously i want i still want to hear more of your thoughts so yeah i actually did enjoy it but like okay i i can't say i hated it
00:46:17
Speaker
ah ah Definitely not to the level that I think a lot of people are disliking this movie. but like yeah we I want to hear more of your thoughts, since you enjoyed it more. Well, OK, so for me with OK, so I'm a bit biased in some respects because like how so OK, with the first movie,
00:46:45
Speaker
I, okay, I like it and I don't like it at the same time. The thing for me is like, I don't think that a character like the Joker benefits from having an origin story. I think that part of the mystery and the intrigue of the character is that you don't know where he comes from. And even in the comic books, for I think more recently they might have, but for the longest amount of time, like they they always kind of went with like, they they never really just come out and plainly state ah where the Joker came from.
00:47:16
Speaker
and uh and i i think that there was a i don't know if you ever watch uh you watch the uh the animated uh they made an animated movie about this called the killing joke it's uh it's got batman and the joker in it it's actually stars uh i think mark hamill plays the joker in it for the I mean, he's the Joker most of the time. Well, he was a Joker in this. Anyways, I wasn't aware that he played the Joker more than once. But it's based off of a graphic novel they made in the 80s by... I've read the graphic novel. I've not seen the movie. You've read the graphic? Damn, man. I've seen the movie. I haven't read the graphic novel. So let me borrow it. I read the Long Halloween. Is it a good read?
00:47:59
Speaker
Yeah it's one of the best stories in the Batman universe. yeah I agree like just from watching, I never got around to reading it. I did actually read the Watchmen. I thought it was way better. than I watched the Watchmen around the same time. I read the Watchmen too. Yeah it the the book is way way like the graphic novel is so much better than the movie. yeah but Anyway so we're we're we're getting a little of course there. That's for another day. Yeah. So with me, with with the Joker, is like it's i it's a good story. I did like it, like the first one. It's just that I don't feel like... I don't i don't like knowing the Joker's background. like I think that they could have made a movie that wasn't necessarily titled The Joker. And for me, it would have it would have benefited like more from it. I know there's like... that That's a big criticism. that It's going around how i like ah like this doesn't feel like The Joker. It shouldn't be called Joker.
00:48:49
Speaker
Right. And then so for me, like now that I watched the second movie, like it actually made me kind of like the first one more. And and again, just kind of ignoring that it is like DC is the Joker. It's like it's just the Joker. It's just this random thing. Like it's got nothing to do with the comic books, its own story. And it was an interesting ah
00:49:17
Speaker
but it's It's an interesting exploration of of basically, of of mental health, and and and of like, oh I don't want it to be like, oh, it's crazy, but like, he the the whole thing, and like, and I didn't get this for me in the title, but it's like, I'm assuming, like, anyways, that, because it's the Joker of Foliadur, so it's like, basically, ah I thought that that had to do with him and Harley Quinn, but really, like, the two characters that I think the title are alluding to is the Joker and and Arthur.
00:49:46
Speaker
is yeah because that Because it means shared madness, right? ah Essentially, yeah. and and and and and so And that's the whole movie, basically. is like Harley Quinn is trying to bring the Joker out, and then there was the the lawyer, I forget her name now. I should remember her name. Wasn't she was the one from ah the 40-year-old virgin, wasn't she? I think I've get out with her.
00:50:14
Speaker
Okay, like anyways, but yeah that that that woman that the lawyer like his lawyer the one that's representing him. She's trying to basically ah Imply that he has some sort of like split personality disorder or something like that, right? Whereas like I don't think that there was anything that it like there wasn't really any evidence to support that theory but she wants to kind of pull at him the other one's kind of pulling at him and like and that's the whole thing in the movie and that's why you have that animated thing at the start where there's a hit between him and his shadow because that's the whole movie is just kind of his
00:50:47
Speaker
you know you're you're seeing things from his perspective like what's making him you know want to do these things and like the attention he's getting from it and uh it it's it's it's just it is a really interesting exploration in that in that regard like i said i mean i think it would have benefited from not being a musical i don't think the musical numbers were really helping for the most part if in it And it is like it is a good story. like I did enjoy the story ah you know from start to finish. like I think the story itself, it it it's written well, it ends well. It just thought, yeah, like i mean that the music, some of it was like good, some of it was like really not great.
00:51:29
Speaker
I actually was surprised, I think, I don't know if, like, I mean, that was Joaquin actually singing, I'm imagining it, I didn't look into it. He's done musicals in the past. I wasn't aware of that, like, I had no idea. I only know him from some roles that he's done, like, for Napoleon, for instance, and stuff, right? So he's a good actor, but... When it comes to this kind of singing, like, he's not the best, so he did a biopic of Johnny Cash.
00:51:58
Speaker
So he did he did a good interpretation of Johnny Cash. He did that, but you know obviously he's not being Johnny Cash in this, so that's why. You can see the holes thing up yeah yeah and And yeah, so I think that all in all, I mean, like it was... it was It was a pretty good story. like it's it's It's a shame that they just didn't continue it on from the first one and not make it a musical. And i and and this is the thing, he was like until you told me it was a musical, I had no idea. And it's not that I haven't heard of this movie. None of the marketing showed off. And while you see and and so like it it really makes you, like what are they thinking when they're doing that? like There's no way there's going to be a positive reception when like you're basically changing
00:52:45
Speaker
the type of movie it is right it's it's like when you have a trailer for something that looks like it's going to be a horror movie and you go watch it the comedy it's like cable like this isn't what i sat down to come see and usually with these type of films will have test screenings and they did zero test screenings for this too right so i mean so it's like they really want to hide the facts Like, why would it eliminate your audience like this? It's like, you have all these fans who are fans of the first movie and you're gonna do this i and not even tell them what but they're gonna be walking into. So of course they're gonna walk out and be like, what the fuck was that?
00:53:20
Speaker
Yeah, and and really it's like, I don't think it deserves the hate that it's getting. It's not a terrible movie. like it's It's actually like, I think it's a good movie. I think that like, again, Lady Gaga, I mean obviously she's she's a good singer, so I mean like, that there are some good musical numbers in there. I wouldn't say they're all like, that they weren't all bad. Like they were, there were some good ones. I did like the one in the courtroom where he decides to become the Joker, like I thought that that one was really... uh good and well done when he fires his lawyer there uh like so there were some of them there were some of them that i enjoyed i mean i guess for me though in the grand scheme of things like even though like i did enjoy the movie it's kind of a shame all the movies were talking about i would have rather it' seen you any of those movies on the big screen rather than this being my first musical on the big screen oh i'm sorry man no it's fine i mean it is what it is and i mean like it's just that like i
00:54:14
Speaker
I don't really think that the movie benefited much from being on the big screen like that the one thing that I will say is like it felt low budget to me like I actually don't think from a directing standpoint like some of the visuals were kind of neat and everything yeah like cinematography wise it looked great it looked like yeah like the giant moon in the background when they were doing the the one number like it was it was nice like it was cool but it definitely felt like it was a low budget movie like he told me it was 200 million dollars like get out of town there's no f freaking way i don't They're gonna lose so much money from this movie. ah I can certainly see why and like it could have worked that's the thing that like I don't get and I mean and and the thing is too like it just for me like it's the same complaint I had of the first movie though is like it just doesn't feel
00:55:04
Speaker
like a Joker flick and I mean... none of the None of the characters really feel like characters from the comics. like ah they just They took names from them. You're the Joker. You're Harley Quinn. Oh, you're you're a lawyer. You're Harvey Dent.
00:55:22
Speaker
oh Yeah, and I and that's just it is like it there's all these peripheral kind of things where they're just like Oh see it is Batman, but it's like yeah Okay, like and I mean I guess somebody can make the argument that they used Harvey Dent He is to face and now you have a joke But that's the thing is like the Joker's never had that From any iteration, i've I've read the character. He never goes back and forth. He's the Joker. he's yeah He is the Joker. like it there's there's no it does You could beat the living crap out of him like the guards do. He's not going to revert back to a different character. He's really off his fucking rocker. like it's It's the Joker.
00:56:01
Speaker
so So I watched a review um in in preparation for this, ah just to get an idea of what people were saying as far as other ideas people had. a Because you know how the first Joker took from a Taxi Driver and um ah king King of Comedy. ah So someone was suggesting like, oh, well they should have done with this. They should have took one Fleur of the Cuckoo's Nest meets Primal Fear and put that together. okay said That would have made the like the movie like, because they could have took elements from both of those and that would have fit Joker pretty well. I have to tentatively agree. I haven't seen one Fleur of the Cuckoo's Nest. this one What? I haven't gone around to seeing it, man.
00:56:53
Speaker
we're going to go into like some like old classics yes for for we there's definitely a few i haven't seen that i've always meant to see i just i have not is all so uh So yeah, it made me think about those two films. I'm like, oh, wow, that would fit a Joker story very well, especially if you made jail the jail more like Arco. So that so yeah like i think that that to me just felt like a jail. I think that a final theater thing would would would work really well, actually, where he's just playing them all along kind of deal. Right. Yeah, the whole time he is a Joker, but he's hiding and he wasn't, but really he's Joker the whole time. That'd been a best better way to do it.
00:57:32
Speaker
um And then yeah if you make the jail more like Arkham Asylum and not like just a normal jail, that would have brought it to life too because in the comics, Arkham Asylum is like so much worse than any jail you've ever seen in your life.
00:57:51
Speaker
And that like it didn't feel like that with this. It's like, well, I've seen jail movies and jail TV shows. That just feels like what's happening here. right And then so ah I'm actually watching, I want to go into this. It's amazing how you have, this is the same studio. you're you're going you're going You have two different properties going and diving into Gotham. You're diving into two different villains in Gotham.
00:58:18
Speaker
Yeah. So you have the you have the penguin that comes out the same time as the Joker 2. The penguin goes into Arkham Asylum and it's and it's you're only there for a half hour maybe and it's done so much better in that half hour.
00:58:39
Speaker
And it's like, what the hell are they doing here? Like, how do you have something that's so well done? Everything, is I mean, for in my opinion, falls on its face, where it ah it just feels so bland. Like, there's nothing special about it. Like you were saying, low budget. It's like, like what what are you doing to enhance this? You you you just have this guy who, you know, is mentally not there and he's trying trying to figure himself out.
00:59:09
Speaker
or even another thing that that could work and and actually i think this this would be the approach that i would have taken is that I would have made it a movie about a guy that is actually trying to identify with the comic book. Kind of like a slightly meta thing, right? He's read these comic books, he wants to become the Joker, yeah that he reads these comic books, and then it's his him wrestling with this whole thing. Like, I think that would have worked. Because that's almost the approach. that They were never going as, oh, this is like the Joker. It's not. It's like this this side story. And I really almost think they were just trying to use the name and stuff, right? so yeah
00:59:46
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, there we go. Yeah, because i obviously, say if you just did a movie called Arthur, no one's gonna go see it. Well, yeah, like it's not gonna, it's certainly not gonna have the box office draw the first one. First one was quite successful, but yeah. It made it for a billion dollars. And that's why I just don't get like why it's like, it's almost like they thought that they couldn't fail. So they're just like, we were just gonna do whatever. We got $200 million or whatever. Let's just make it rain. It's all good. Our pockets are, our pockets certainly aren't empty.
01:00:21
Speaker
uh... yeah i i don't know i mean like like i guess that i still enjoyed it for what it was used by you have for me i have to ignore that it it is a joker flick like in terms of the way that i know the character uh... like i got a i got five can i interject a a little a little fun of fact here if yes you don't know it yet so uh... you might actually know this and i'm not a hundred percent sure but uh... one of the uh...
01:00:49
Speaker
I've heard sometimes it's like one of the complaints people have is like they don't feel like you know Harley Quinn is ah is represented properly and We're talking about oranges stories and stuff like that. Do you actually know what Harley Quinn's first appearance was?
01:01:04
Speaker
Yes, in Batman animated series. Nice. Did you watch the Batman animated series back in the day? You're darned too, and come on. ah ah and That's what expedited my love for Batman, was watching that show as a kid. And then yeah having that into Batman Forever and Batman and Robin, you know like I was like, all right. Once Batman Begins came out, I'm like... Right.
01:01:26
Speaker
Oh my god, this is the Batman I've always wanted, you know? Yeah, it's amazing how how like I was unfortunately, I only caught a few episodes back in the day. It was ah it was a hard show to come by up and where I was anyways on a normal cable. But yeah, like I remember it being definitely not really a kid show, right? It was it was definitely like a little bit darker.
01:01:49
Speaker
yeah yeah i mean and and then and then score the music in that show oh yeah and that's the thing is like who but who would have thought that harley quinn would actually get introduced in a cartoon show that's wild that's wild to me yeah whereas she's so iconic these days is that people say joker they don't they can't even not think about her and like yeah she's almost just as iconic though Yeah, and she mean she has her own show now on ah HBO Max. Yeah, you talked about that last season. Yeah. think did Yeah. ah Definitely not a children's show. how Okay. Yeah. That was very, yeah. Kids stay away. Yeah. It's 18 and above for that one. But yeah, but but but but yeah even because watching those as a kid and then Batman Beyond, I also loved.
01:02:41
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I watched a bit of the Batman Beyond as well. I'm praying because, you know, you know ah so so so James Gunn had nothing nothing to do with Joker too because he he signed he signed on a DC after that was already written and like being prepared and and and like that was our already in production. um But um i would I would love if he does do a Batman Beyond movie. I think now is a good time to bring that in.
01:03:09
Speaker
um least in the future like like i think in like I think once you get to the next decade, I think maybe like 2030, I feel like though though we we could get Batman Beyond then. You know what? I might be over my ah my superhero fatigue by then possibly. so yeah But I feel like they're just going to keep cranking out these superheroes. Dude, but I would love if they bring like Christian Bale as like the old Bruce Wayne to like be oh that and that's the thing is like that would be cool I'm not gonna I'm not gonna argue with you on that one. Like I think that there's still There's still stories to be told. I think the thing is like like you said, I mean you've read
01:03:45
Speaker
uh the graphic novel the killing joke and it's like there's some really good stories that like and and i feel like a lot of the comic book movies like they're just it's the exact same storyline rinse recycled repeated like they don't really dive into source material that's so freaking good and that's been my one kind of main complaint i would say about all these comic book movies like it's it's too bad like and i you know and someone's just like well they gotta do something new and it's like honestly i prefer just to just to have a live action version of the comic book i read i was like because for for myself is like it'd be so sweet to like watch this on the big screen and for anyone that hasn't is never going to read the comic books like they still get to enjoy the story like and it's a shame to like not you know have it as good as it could be and and i feel like that's where a lot of these stories are falling short so
01:04:37
Speaker
uh wait that's enough of my bitching about that james yeah okay all right this is just so we can rap about the joker we need to talk about the image we had trouble the ending because the ending is a big deal yes the ending is a big deal the ending i didn't know i i saw coming but didn't see coming with other ways uh So um once yeah, you might not see it coming but once it happens you're like, yeah, that makes makes sense Yeah, so first of all, that was funny how like How Harley just knew where the Joker steps were I was like, okay, they' they're just doing this because he was there he did the dance I was like, how's she? Staking out his old apartment. She had been doing that. She said that didn't she I
01:05:23
Speaker
But the steps- she's known about dancing on the steps. Yeah. She wasn't there for that. One of the cops were there for that.
01:05:36
Speaker
oh you Remember in the first movie where he danced on the steps? oh okay yeah so i know like it's like that that okay how's harley going to be here possibly right no it's really the same it's like once you know it's like wait this is like a plot hole it's like why they do this this makes me say i thought i thought those are the steps going to his apartment i thought he was just kind of heading home because he figured that's where she was going to be okay i completely missed yeah there like they's had their file scene here because these steps are iconic you know right okay and that that okay
01:06:11
Speaker
so yeah yeah the whole you know once he admits he's not joker he's like i'm done with you i only liked you when you're joker yeah yeah he's got Yeah, so he's back. He gets caught. He's back in jail. That's what we were like. All right. Well, what's going to be the ending? I'm like, all right. I think I know what's coming. I think when is it was coming, that this the guard asked him to the guard tell us and follow me like had the files you got in here because the steps a visitor are iconic in a variety of the event that all the or whatever. Yeah. Who's the visitor? I know you're messing with me.
01:06:42
Speaker
No, who is the visitor? Do you know who the visitor is? There's no visitor. No, I know. But like, but who was the visitor?
01:06:52
Speaker
I can't tell if you're messing with me or not. yeah
01:06:57
Speaker
yeah you're You're not messing with me. So you're saying that the guard was in on it too? Yes. Okay, I don't think I caught that then. I thought there was a legit visitor. now I remember watching the movie, I was like, well, who is the business who's going to visit him? but That's just it. That's why I wanted to know. The guard did on it. That's the easy way to get him out in the open.
01:07:20
Speaker
And for no one could to bat an eye and like, no one sees what happens. He's dead. Okay. i don't I think I missed that part. That makes sense now that you're saying it. So yeah, so you have this one guy who showed up maybe once or twice in the whole movie, comes up to me like, Hey, you want to hear a joke?
01:07:39
Speaker
um And, you know, Arthur being the comedian the comedian he is, he's like, yeah, like yell let me hear it. He basically talks about him being let down by someone that he looked up to and stabbed him because of it. And I'm like, oh, well, yeah, I guy saw it coming. They went there. They did. I'm like, OK, cool. And then you see him you know bleeding out on the ground. And then what does that guy do, John? What does he do?
01:08:10
Speaker
what is like guy What does the guy do that killed Arthur?
01:08:16
Speaker
I'm having a brain fart, man. He cuts his lips to create a smile like Heath Ledger's Joker. And this did not sit well with me. I did not like that at all. Did I miss this? How'd you miss this? I don't know. I was looking down at my popcorn or something, man.
01:08:41
Speaker
So I was upset about this. I'm like, why are you trying to tie in the Dark Knight version of the Joker? So he he does that to himself or he does that to the to to Arthur or whatever. So he kills Arthur. Yeah. Arthur's blue on the ground. Okay. Yeah, I got that. You see him but like ah you know in the background doing this to his face, cutting his lips open, creating his scars.
01:09:05
Speaker
cutting his own lips off his own nice so he's so you know how had been the new joker is what you're saying like like a Heath Ledger you know he says oh I got these scars yeah so he's doing his scars like how Heath Ledger did right and he's he's basically saying like oh this is how the Heath Ledger Joker is created is that like no again how did I miss this no it's ah it's it's the last thing before the credits Oh, I don't know. maybe Maybe once I saw him dead, I might have got up and walked him out, man. I thought you liked this more than me. I did like it. I way i thought that was it. Turns down. You're right. that That would have made me kind of... Yeah, they probably would have irked me a bit, I think. I was not upset because I'm like, that's such a cheap thing to throw in there. Like, what are you doing? It is, but I mean, in fairness, you can make the argument and like, this is one of the things in both movies is like this, this idea that that spreads like a disease, right? Like, and and and and how much people do idolize the character. And that's why there's people like wearing the masks and stuff and they're getting just chaotic and... Yeah, but why are you trying to tie into the Dark Knight version of the Joker? I mean, if that these timelines, like i yeah if you're going by the age of the Heath Ledger Joker, he would have been like four in this movie. You know, it's like, I mean, what I get what you're saying. I'm not arguing with you. I'm just trying to. I don't know. like I still what I was saying. like I enjoyed the movie for what it was, I think. and and And again, it made me like the first one a bit more because
01:10:38
Speaker
ah I didn't really care for the first one that much the first time I saw it like I still thought it was good It's just that again, I think it would have worked better Just not ah being a Joker movie like it just it's not I don't know it it did just for for me It just it did yeah it didn't work, but like I still thought it was a good movie It's funny you say that because for me it makes the first one worse um i but But you enjoyed the first one where I was like, I can't say I really did. Right. It makes me appreciate what they were trying to do in the first one more is what I'm trying to say. Yeah, I guess me. Yeah. And then for me, like I can't I can't help to think about if I'm watching the first one like.
01:11:16
Speaker
Well, this is what eventually happens to him like nothing. He just dies. No, you know you yeah can watch a first of a movie and ignore its sequel if you don't like it. I have always been a firm believer. I i respectfully just i i respectfully disagree they if the second one based on the quality of the second one.
01:11:38
Speaker
And I feel like it's such a downgrade in quality. It makes the second one worse. And and they it hurts the character more, most importantly. It hurts the first movie is what you're saying. Yeah, but because it hurts the character the most, that's what brings the movie down in my mind. I mean, yeah, it's like I said, it's a... Yeah. Because it's a character study is what both films are. And if you heard the character in the second one, I can't help but think about it in the first one when I'm watching it. and
01:12:09
Speaker
I see what you're saying. Yeah, I definitely see what you're saying. I mean, I think it has, again, we we both had different, um I think, attitudes towards the first one. So and and that's why I just did. That's why it's interesting that for you, it makes it worse for me, I'd say it makes it better. Because like I said, I think I was one of the minority that I didn't really like the first one. And again, just because like, I don't it's he's a character I don't want an origin story for. It's kind of like,
01:12:37
Speaker
Wolverine in the comic books was another character. He for the longest amount of my time, his his origin story was very convoluted. They didn't never really dove into it until I guess eventually they did, because eventually they have to, right or whatever. and And I don't think it benefits the character. like Some characters really do thrive in in having that mystery. like and I think in especially The Dark Knight, that is one of the most popular iterations of The Joker. yeah Probably the most popular iteration. Yeah, I think it is like he's got this custom clothes, right? They don't even know where his clothes is the yeah the guy comes from like his no fingerprints anything about him like nothing's showing up It's just this random dude that came out of nowhere and started making all his chaos Mmm, and for whatever reason goes the love for Batman and and that's why it was like if I think that's the best version and the best way to do the Joker and for that reason like even a Jack Nicholson one again he's got a bit of an origin story too yeah and and and I still I love that version i love that movie I love Jack Nicholson's portrayal but I do think that again it does still hurt the character a bit right
01:13:49
Speaker
So, and I think I'll always stand by that thing. I mean, it's kind of like the Joker in the deck, like the deck of cards, man. I was like, what the fuck's up with the Joker? I know what the King's doing there. Take the cards out, these cards. Everyone takes a Joker out, you know what I mean? Like, he's cheating, he's cheating. Shall we get to the ratings?
01:14:12
Speaker
ah Yes, I suppose yeah, I guess we're gonna do the rating for the Joker a fully add dude I Feel like I know what you're ready is gonna be You run the audience the rain system again, uh, yes. Yes, I will James because Sometimes we're forgetting what this yeah I mean I like it and then I mean obviously I think you you can put your own spin on it I think I'm gonna put my own spin on my rating here so I will start with the rating so but I'll list off the thing so number one is wouldn't watch it again number two is would fall asleep to it on TV
01:14:56
Speaker
Number three, woodwalt. Watch it again. Number four, wood buy it. Number five is your sleepy game's instant classic.
01:15:07
Speaker
So I'm gonna do something a little bit different like again I don't really have a whole lot of love for musicals despite obviously you know with with I guess the exceptions of the ones that we talked to on the on this episode ah so for me I mean I would probably give it a wood watch it again if it weren't a musical like it it is a movie i would watch again so i'd give it it the three uh that that's my reading i did like the story i liked what they were trying to i attempt with it and if i just forget that it was the joker as we know him then i mean whatever that that's my reading so what what is your reading uh i'll kind of play off of what you did um so i wouldn't watch i wouldn't watch the entire film
01:15:56
Speaker
like from front to back again okay yeah i will watch that the the gary puddle scene again because i did like that a lot right and then later the first opening animated sequence no i saw it not even not even okay yeah um just the puddles yeah yeah and like as far as i bring back other characters i thought they were kind of wasted but that yeah the gary puddles right like that actor he killed it he did he did so well in that scene He did. hey I'm not going to say he didn't. do You really feel for the guy like. Yeah. So yeah, I definitely, I would definitely like to watch that for the performances and like just, and I like how they took that scene a lot. So yeah, I would watch that again, but not the film.
01:16:46
Speaker
Yeah. Alrighty. Well, I guess that kind of sums it up for the Joker. Yep. The Joker 2. The Joker 2. Feliadudu. Feliadudu. That's me. Okay.
01:17:00
Speaker
yeah So what are we doing and next week? ah So next week, since it'll be our last week of the Super Games Treehouse of Horrors, um we kind of want to find another Halloween ah-esque film or spooky film that we haven't seen yet that we could talk about. like Because you kind of gave me the idea. and I kind of want to watch. Especially I have this fix of the stop-motion animation. Yes. Or the claymation. Whatever you call it. Stop-motion claymation?
01:17:29
Speaker
I forget what it's called. I'll find out what it's appropriately called. I think stop motion. Claymation is a bit different. It's actually one of those actual clays. I think these are stop motion. I could be wrong though, yeah. I'm certainly no expert on the subject. So because of how much I like Corpse Bride ah and knowing that the... er don't have tim bere I know the director of Nightmare Before Christmas directed Coraline. I want ah want to watch Coraline and see, you know, because I hear there's a lot of adult themes in that one, too. just as highs bri It is one that, honestly, I think some people even said that there's a ah one or two scenes that are kind of like starring, even though it's a kid. Wow. Oh, my God. Well, that's definitely for me. That's that' that's mine.
01:18:13
Speaker
Yeah, and and there's definitely one or two of the the voices, the the voice cast, I'm sure you'll recognize. Oh, so I'll do that. I'll go in blind, not knowing who the voice cast is. Yeah, no, just yeah you there's definitely one, and I'm not going to ruin it for you. I'll be like, oh, I know who that is. Yeah, I always like trying to guess who it is from listening. Yeah. And then yours would be a surprise.
01:18:39
Speaker
Mine will be a surprise. It will will indeed. yeah I like surprises. I'll do my scary.
01:18:49
Speaker
la la they' my scary ah gal The in the ghouls.
01:18:59
Speaker
Then, ahll we back we'll talk we'll talk a little bit about ah some Halloween costumes we've we've done, faced off movies and TV shows that we've done in the past. I think that would be a good idea, Julie. I've got a couple of good ones for that, so looking forward to it. Yeah, we could do we can probably post some of those um with the episode when we when we posted ah before a Halloween. Just so we can give the fans something to see a little piece of us.
01:19:29
Speaker
All buddy. Yeah. But ah yeah, but that's us. We'll see you next week for the last 3 House, Sleepy Games 3 House of Horrors. Yeah. All right. Cheers. All right. Whoo! Cheers.