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269 Melissa Welliver | Dystopian Romance Author
54 Plays51 minutes ago
Romantic dystopian writer, Melissa Welliver returns to chat about her latest novel 'To The Death'. We do a bit of a career retrospective, discuss the different ways that genres are viewed and discuss a few publishing hot topics.
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Transcript
Introduction & Writing Challenges
00:00:00
Speaker
Ooh, a spicy question. love it. Because the writing is sort of everything, right? Like you can fix plot holes, but if the writer isn't there. So some readers love that and some readers are like, but I wanted more of this. So it's kind of, it's kind of a gamble.
Guest Introduction: Melissa Welliver
00:00:14
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to the Right and Wrong podcast. On this episode, I am with an author of dystopian and speculative romantic adventures. My good friend and co-host of The Chosen Ones and Other Tropes, it's Melissa Welliver.
Melissa's Upcoming Book: 'To The Death'
00:00:28
Speaker
Welcome She's back. I'm back. As always. yeah ah Yeah, you can't get rid of me. ah The new book coming out on the 26th of March. um Tell us about your fourth novel, the the Death.
00:00:43
Speaker
yeah So ah it is called To The Death, ah not the original title, which I never get to keep my titles. So that's fair enough. ah But the marketing team know what they're doing. ah Yeah. So it's coming out with Hachette. They're in print, technically called Tempest, which they've only just changed. So I think on the side of some books, it actually she still says Hodder.
00:01:02
Speaker
So they'll be worth loads of money, guys, when I'm rich and famous. So make sure you go out and get the first editions of
Plot Elements & Inspirations
00:01:07
Speaker
the book. Think how much money they'll be worth. ah So it's about girl called Astrid who lives on an island and has done for eight years that is quarantined from the mainland because it it is fest it is infested with zombies.
00:01:20
Speaker
They're sort of vampire zombie hybrids. They burn in the sun. I won't spoil too much because you can kind of discover what kind of monsters they are. um And they are all recorded. um a sort of a nature program to start with but it becomes sort of a monetized television show and the producer of the show turns up on the island and they've decided to boost ratings they're going to do a sort of battle royale style game show with uh favorites from the fans battling against zombies and the winner gets a ticket off the island very exciting very cool
00:01:53
Speaker
um It's obviously dystopia, speculative fiction. That's like your home. That's what you like to write write about. That's where yeah where you kind of live. But obviously a huge part of this is the reality TV element
Comparisons & Unique Elements
00:02:08
Speaker
of it. Was there a specific reality TV show that you were watching at home in real life when you were starting to piece together the idea for this book?
00:02:16
Speaker
Yes, The Traitors. I wrote it in January, 2024. And that's when The Traitors, I think it was around the time that I said to you to start watching The Traitors. And then you watched like the back catalogue and you were texting me about it. So yeah, Traitors January. Yeah, that's right. So I was watching The Traitors. and There are some homage, like gold envelopes in the book.
00:02:35
Speaker
It's quite funny because obviously it gets obviously it gets Hunger Games comparisons because it's a Battle Royale type book. ah But actually I would say much closer to um Traitors. It has like puzzles and challenges that are not actually, a bit like in the Traitors, they're not really puzzles and challenges. They're more just there to ah humiliate the contestants and get them talking about certain things and get them doing certain things and get certain footage that they want to get.
00:03:00
Speaker
ah But yes, it's sort of created within a challenge sphere. Okay, okay, cool. yeah um this is Yeah. I thought it might be like a Love Island or something because it is on an island, you know. and God, yeah. I mean, I love Love Island. I love, I love reality TV. I've been watching, I watched Big Brother when I was like 10 or 11 when I should not have been watching it. Absolutely loved it. I remember finding out like certain celebrities would buy the big brother diary room chairs and i was so jealous and i was like when I'm a rich and famous writer I'm going to buy one of the diary room chairs and like sit in it at my desk and obviously I'm not rich or famous enough yet because I don't have one really sad but uh one day yeah oh no I love all that I love Love Island I've seen pretty much all of them apart from the all-star ones
00:03:42
Speaker
um oh my god yeah i love reality tv i love like love is blind and married at first sight um which are romance ones which is interesting because this as you said at the beginning i always have like a romance thread yeah so i love like fake dating on
Title Evolution & Dystopian Tropes
00:03:56
Speaker
tv i love it delicious my favorite fake dating a great trope as well we love we talked about that one on chosen ones yeah it's so good you mentioned it so i have to ask what was the original title Oh, yeah. So I just named after the game show. So the the sort of show that they take part in is called Escape from Blood Island.
00:04:16
Speaker
yeah, remember. Yeah, yeah. So I kind of thought my head, i was like, this could be a really cool series where every book is named after the TV show in question. yeah But I think um in early conversations, it was something like they were worried it leaned, which is quite funny now because it's quite popular, but they were worried it was leaning to horror.
00:04:34
Speaker
If it was called Escape from Blood Island and they wanted it to lean like dystopian because it is horror because there's zombies and, yeah you know, fighting and stuff. And there's a body horror in the book. But yeah, that was why. Escape from Blood Island sort of like 80s kitsch horror kind of vibe to it too. Yes, actually that's true. Which is fun, but I can see why the marketing team went with this.
00:04:57
Speaker
Yes, yeah, yeah. And also, I guess from a world-building perspective, it's a bit simpler because obviously the the island, when it was not infested with vampire-zombie hybrids, was not called Blood Island. It's called Modi Modi, which means that it's just Latin, well, slightly bastardized Latin for little bite, which, of course, technically is. so That is actually a reference to the zombie vampires, but I was just trying to call it, you know, something completely different. Something interesting.
00:05:21
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, And then the sequel, you can call it To the Death, but T-W-O. to uh to the death perfect not what i called it stupid that i think four drafts where i was just sending it back and it just said to the death two electric boogaloo along the top and then eventually my editor had to say so we're not going to call it that was like all right yeah that would be hilarious if you did call it that though yeah yeah that would be the tippy top let's talk about dystopia yeah um i want to bring you mean the news okay did yeah you mean contemporary news uh no i want to talk about something that you said in our chosen ones group chat uh-oh
00:06:10
Speaker
um it's coming out the group this is getting very nervous the unhinged three-person group chat no no it was what we were we were talking the other day and you just it was something you you had been thinking about and you said you were thinking about how crime and romance as genres that the the stories um are very similar very repressive because part of that those genres is that the fans are expecting certain things like most
Genre Expectations & Tropes
00:06:36
Speaker
romance you know it's going to be happily ever after most crime you know that the um the there's going to be a a depressed kind of detective with issues in their own life and then at the end they're going to solve the the murder and probably not resolve the issues in their own life um
00:06:52
Speaker
Then you fantasy caught some strays and then you went on to say that you you got a feeling that dystopia was held up to a slightly different lens and it so it was scrutinized in a different way when people repeated the storylines and things from the genre.
00:07:08
Speaker
Yeah. So it's definitely not the only genre that this happens in. This just happens to be my genre. So I see things within my genre, even when I'm avoiding my own reviews, which I try and do most of the time, other reviews as well, because obviously I'm reading them. So I'm going on and I'm seeing like the reviews. and So obviously we have tropes podcast. I have absolutely no issue whatsoever with genres having a particular framework that they need to work with them and tropes and sort regulations that you would expect. Like say, in a romance, you're not, I can't really think of a romance where you're reading it and thinking, oh, I hope they get together because obviously they're going to get together.
00:07:44
Speaker
That is part of the magic of reading a romance is you are safe in the knowledge there's going to be a happily ever after. In fact, there are people that would argue it's not a romance, and solid romance book in the genre if it doesn't have an HEA, right? So that's absolutely fine. Like, I don't mind that at all.
00:08:00
Speaker
You know, I've watched um stuff with hard-boiled detectives and, you know, that's literally like an old like detective gumshoe type. Absolutely. Like, that's absolutely... ah There's no... issue I'm not saying there's an issue with that. And it's the same with them fantasy. Quite a lot of fantasy obviously um launches off ah the same fantasy creatures that appear in different things, for instance. and yeah Horror does it quite a lot. Like why would they go into the basement every time the call's coming from inside the house?
00:08:27
Speaker
Even zombie stuff, which obviously I love. Like there's a big comparison. people i remember whenever I see people watch the first, because 28 years later has come out recently, right? And a lot of people go back to 28 days. When they watch it and they see a bloke wake up from a coma in hospital, zombie apocalypse, they immediately go and Google which came first, Walking Dead, or 28 Days Later, because it's really similar. And I do feel like sometimes in dystopia, you the tropes that you use, and if you are using tropes, ah they can sometimes be held in quite a critical light, because I think dystopia, people are expecting every single story to be completely and utterly an original idea.
00:09:07
Speaker
And that's never, I mean, that's never going happen anyway. Like there's no, you know, people who say there's no original ideas. think that's probably a bit harsh. I do think there's more than seven
Real-world Reflections in Dystopian Fiction
00:09:15
Speaker
stories. I'm not a big fan of that, but I think, yeah. So for instance, I've written, obviously it's a battle royale story. There's quite a few of them about, I mean, battle royale itself literally comes from the book slash film slash manga, like battle royale. Yes. um Yeah. Where people are fighting till there's the last one. And also, of course, really popular in video games, um a battle of royale.
00:09:38
Speaker
You know, I mean, Fortnite's battle royale. um So, yeah, I think that um there's an interesting thing in dystopia where sometimes if you use tropes from well-known other um creations within the same genre, you're people think that it's less of a homage. This isn't necessarily something I've been accused of, but I do notice that people are quite happy to see the same sorts of characters say in fantasy, I'll burn the world for you type characters.
00:10:08
Speaker
make me your villain type characters. I love make me your villain. Like I love it. um But I feel like sometimes if you want to use those tropes in dystopia, they're picked up. I think it's because of the political connotations of dystopia and obviously usually holding up a mirror to the real world, which I think all books do to an extent.
00:10:24
Speaker
But I think dystopia, especially, especially post black mirror, think people are expecting a particular discourse around a dystopic book.
Marketing & Comparison Titles
00:10:35
Speaker
So I think it can be a bit tougher sometimes. There's a slightly tougher critical audience I think sometimes.
00:10:42
Speaker
I guess I have a couple of things to say. Yeah. Firstly, I guess that that there there is something also inherently tied in with the fact that dystopia is most of the time speculative, which means it it is the idea that this was the real world and this is like, you know, whether it's 20 years, 50 years, 100 years, future or more. I think there is an idea of like,
00:11:07
Speaker
yeah, this was, this was the real world. So we're going to be a bit more strict on how, how I kind of police it. If you know what I mean? Cause I'm like, this is in quotes real. Or like you're posing that this was real.
00:11:18
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. My, what I would say about fantasy is, is I feel like you're, you're throwing you're throwing fantasy in with romantic.
00:11:29
Speaker
I think oh yeah you're right you're talking about romantic tropes. Yeah. Uh, fantasy. the The interesting thing about fantasy is it's almost, um, if you look at who the biggest fantasy authors are and the ones who have really broken out, like your Joe Abercrombie is even like George RR Martin when he first started writing. Yeah.
00:11:49
Speaker
Uh, they're they're taking the sort of Tolkien-esque setup right that was created many, many years ago, and then they're doing everything in their power to keep it so you recognize it, but then subvert everything about it.
00:12:03
Speaker
Okay. Yeah, yeah. So it's like your elves, you know, the elves are beautiful and and attractive, but in this fantasy, the elves are like psychopaths who eat people. Okay. eat babies yeah yeah exactly all i know you know Aragorn is this heroic character and and everyone's quite honorable and it kind of bands together in Lord the Rings and then in Joe Abercrombie no one wants to be a part of the group they're all forced to be there either through blackmail or just they didn't have any other option uh the character who's sort of in in the first law trilogy at least the character who's the sort of Gandalf character is clearly
00:12:41
Speaker
ah entirely not necessarily evil but entirely doing this for his own benefit and manipulating everyone around him to do it so it's i think i think yeah with fantasy as a generally what's becoming popular fantasy is take the exact thing and then ah surprise people when they when it's not the thing they they think it's going to be um yeah the tropes you're talking about the which just makes me think of Ben Barnes, but whatever. yeah That's, that's, oh shadow done yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. That's, that's full romantic. Which I think I was linking in because I think romance and crime in particular as
Impact of Marketing & Reader Feedback
00:13:22
Speaker
the two easily, I would say biggest genres on a Kindle, Kindle unlimited.
00:13:27
Speaker
um i would say they're the ones that people really love to find a similar genre. So they finish a whole detective series and they want to find another detective series or yeah they finish, you know, a particular type of romance. They want to find more Regency romance, whatever it may be. So I think that's why I folded it in there. I think that probably you're probably right. Yeah, I probably am just talking about romance because romance had lends itself to all these tropes because that's what the people want.
00:13:51
Speaker
So. Yeah, yeah. Romance fits into every every genre. But the nice thing about crime and romance is because they've been because they've been in that spot for such a long time, I feel like they've really found their rhythm with those things where it's like, you can read lots of romance and whilst they're there is an inherent similarity, there's like, the the authors are very good ah and the and the things that you know agents are finding and the publishers are finding yeah is that that they're doing the things that are different are like... yes wonderfully different. They're very interestingly different. And that's that kind of, I think romanticy is still young enough as a kind of popular genre. I think it's absolutely going to fit into the, ah along with the main romance and the and the crime stuff. But I think it needs a bit more time before it, it gets out of almost its own way where like, yeah, like you say, there's so many shadow daddy characters where they're kind of almost verbatim saying the same thing in the same scene.
00:14:45
Speaker
And it's like, we love a trope, you know, we love a, there's only one bed. We love and lovers, but it's like, it would be nice to, to kind of have the way it's delivered change a bit more, I think between, between the books. And I'm sure it does. I don't read widely and I'm sure there's lots that is happening, but there's a lot where it is almost shot for shot the same. Like if you made the TV show or the movie, that would be just be basically the same, uh, scene playing out.
00:15:12
Speaker
Yes. Yeah, to conclude, I think, yeah, I think you're, you're potentially right. I think people are too eager to look for comparisons with dystopia. and like Oh, this is, this is just that. And I'm like, well, yeah, but everything's just something else.
00:15:25
Speaker
Yeah. And I think it's the way that obviously things are. I see quite a lot on, ah I'm on BookTok lurking. And I do see quite a lot of discourse about ah people really dislike that publishers say it's this meets this, right? So my publisher is pushing to the death as, um at the time I sold it, The Last of Us was basically on.
00:15:45
Speaker
Like at that time. And obviously it's running scary zombies of sorts. And obviously we have Hunger Games because it's a battle royale type thing. So they're saying, oh, it's the Hunger Games meets The Last of Us. And people really hate that.
00:16:01
Speaker
and And I think it's an interesting part of being a traditionally published author. I do absolutely understand why they use it. I think it's a good thing to help people. Oh, if you're a fan of this, you will like this. That's what they're really saying. They're really saying, oh, you love like, you know, if you were a friends with somebody and you know that they love Regency romance and you know that they've not seen Bridgerton, you blow up. I can't believe you've not seen Bridgerton. Like it's like this. And you would use a comparison of one of their favorite things to tell them what it was like. Everybody does it.
00:16:28
Speaker
um But I do understand why people feel like it's um like very derivative and it kind of rips out some soul pieces. and it's not necessarily what the author was thinking when they were writing it.
00:16:39
Speaker
um but it's to help market the book to the correct audience. So
Pitching to Publishers & Marketing Challenges
00:16:44
Speaker
I do understand the discourse around it, but I also do think it's useful. And I think that also doesn't help when people are making comparisons to other things. If the publisher is saying, yeah, it is like this. And then they're like, oh, it's it is like this. It's like, yeah, so that's why I thought you might...
00:16:59
Speaker
enjoy it someone else might think oh this is too similar to something else I was enjoying you know i I've had actually enough of this trope or I've had enough of this style of reality tv show this is actually too similar and that's fair enough you know that's why that's why I don't read reviews because that's what you get into yeah of course you can get into reviews where you know someone's like five star I cried all the way through and someone says I didn't care about a single character dnf'd so like people have different opinions on things obviously that's it Yeah, because everyone's going to take something different from it. And I think that's yeah an interesting point where, you know, if your your your book is being pushed as Hunger Games meets The Last of Us, people are going to take different things from that. it's quite interesting because when I speak to agents and I often talk about agents love to see a comparison title because what they want from your cover letter is they want to they want to know sort of succinctly what to expect when they read your manuscript. Right. So yeah comparison titles are great. But that's where it starts. Yeah.
00:17:52
Speaker
they'll often say is they won't, they won't say like, ah you know, unless it's very obvious, they won't say like, oh, it's Jurassic Park meets it. Um, that sounds so good. I was just off off the dome right there.
00:18:05
Speaker
Um, they'll say something like, uh, you know, it's the, it's the specific, uh, relationships with the, between the characters in one of these things combined with the kind of world and setting of the other. So with something like the last of us,
00:18:20
Speaker
um If I were to say like, oh, it's like the setting of The Last of Us, that's very different from me saying, oh, the comparison is, it's like the relationship between Ellie and Joel in The Last of Us. Mm-hmm.
00:18:32
Speaker
Because it could be, you know, I could say Last of Us meets Jurassic Park. And then I'm like, oh, and it's the relationship between Ellie and Joel from The Last of Us. But it's the setting of Jurassic Park. But life finds a way from Jurassic Park. But life finds way, yeah. don't want tell you. But it's just a theme park. Yeah, it's just set in a theme park. Yeah, that's the tricky bit.
00:18:52
Speaker
So I can see why people wouldn't love like a comparison if they're they're expecting one thing from that and then they're like, oh, this isn't what I thought it was. Like if they pick up your book and they're expecting like a sort of um found family, father-daughter relationship.
00:19:06
Speaker
That's true. And yeah that's not there. Yeah, no, I totally agree. And I think that... the problem with how, because you've got to catch people's attention. So I understand you only have a few words to catch someone's attention and say, this is the book you want to look at. Cause there's literally tens, if not hundreds of thousands of books being published every year in the English language, yeah and just in fiction
Originality & Pop Culture Influences
00:19:26
Speaker
alone. So you've got, you've got very little amount of time to capture someone's attention.
00:19:31
Speaker
ah But no, I totally agree. I think, and I also do think Hunger Games, and this is as somebody who has a Hunger Games book comparison and loves the Hunger Games. I do think it's massively overused as the only dystopian title, which brings us back around to what I was saying about I think people who read dystopia, maybe sometimes it's very easy to make connections to other things. And those things are definitely a homage in those books. like You can't write dystopian and have not read The Hunger Games. That would be mad.
00:19:58
Speaker
I can't imagine anyone writing dystopia not have read The Hunger Games because it is a seminal text. in the genre. I totally understand that. And so of course there's always going to be little nods to things within that text. um However, yeah, I just think that sometimes we're quite quick to, this is also a discourse on TikTok actually, we're quite quick to say, oh, this person's copied this. I remember when their divergent came out before I read it, loads of people kept saying it's copied the Hunger Games is exactly the same as the Hunger Games. And then I read it and thought,
00:20:29
Speaker
like like angry i like Yeah, I didn't really understand. i mean, I did obviously like logically speaking, understand people are saying, oh, it's a female character who's this age and is quite standoffish and has to prove herself and leads a revolution. And I'm like, yeah, but to me, that's a trope I just expected. So it wasn't something that bothered me that it was there. So yeah, it was just different. That's the thing you've got to accept. Once your book goes out into the world, people make their own decisions you've just got to kind of back off.
00:20:56
Speaker
Yeah. And I mean, if the, if the book's good and the, the word of mouth is good around it and it gets buzzed, then yeah the, the description of it will change and it will shape itself. and Yes, that's so true. I would say 28 years later is much closer to my zombies now, but this book sold in like first half of first third of 2024. So I don't even think that I don't even think the first one had come out yet 28 years later.
00:21:22
Speaker
Whereas now, definitely, so 28 years later is probably a better comparison title. So it's interesting, isn't it? Things change. It's just the ze it's the zeitgeist too, because the marketing team is trying to pick up on the thing that's popular at the time. Right, exactly. um Because not only, like you said, thousands of books coming out at any one time, but also...
00:21:41
Speaker
because of the way book publishing works, your window for your kind of launch marketing is going to be the most marketing your book will probably ever get. There's other reasons why that might not be true, but for the most part, when your book comes out, that's the most marketing it'll ever get because your publisher needs to move on to the other books they're publishing. They need to
Writing Process & Evolving Experience
00:21:59
Speaker
like redirect that team and things like that. Yes. So it's not only that there's so many books coming out for the whole year. It's that that the time is that the the biggest push your book's ever going to get is that initial launch.
00:22:09
Speaker
Yes, course, because then they're hoping that, you know, the one thing publishers can't buy and I'm sure would love to buy is word of mouth. And it's that I would say like 50% of the trajectory of your book will be word of mouth, like just people recommending it to each other.
00:22:23
Speaker
yeah yeah yeah absolutely um let's i've got couple more questions before we oh i've changed it now that's great you haven't been on since i changed it from the desert island anyway um here's one for you so if if we go take take a little trip down memory lane um your first novel came out 2020 2021 2021 twenty twenty print on and down tower yeah twenty three one um How vividly can you remember the writing process for each of your, this is your fourth novel, so for each of your novels, that's like The Undying Tower 2021, My Love Life and the Apocalypse, Soulmates and Other Ways to Die. yeah How vividly can you remember writing each of those? And like, does it, i don't know, does it change as you as you go forwards or are some books more kind of memorable than others?
00:23:19
Speaker
Hmm. So like, obviously every time you start book, you're like, I don't understand what to do. Where was the instruction booklet from last time? am panicking. There's no way you write the first thousand words. It takes two days. You think, oh my God, how am I ever going to get this done? So like definitely every book has similar...
00:23:37
Speaker
start in that you absolutely are certain you've never written a book before. It's the most bizarre thing, actually. Like it's just, even though I'm a plotter and so I have like a framework I can use to start with, um it still feels like you've never done it before. I think with my...
00:23:53
Speaker
books. So yeah, I've got four that are sort slated if you like. And then I've just done the next one in my contract and I've written an uncontracted one. So that's like six. And then there's also ones that are never going to see the light of day. And you definitely remember the ones better that I'm very much a fan of. The writing comes in the rewriting.
00:24:13
Speaker
Like I really think, into don't get me wrong, it's a huge achievement to get down a first draft. It's very important. I mean, it's step one of the entire book process. and But the writing comes in the rewriting, which is why actually and it does bug me when people say they use like quite heavily rely on, say, AI to help them. rewrite something like oh I just feed in the odd sentence or I I had a plot hole so i just asked AI the problem is not only is AI probably not going to up with something as good as you can come up with yourself but there is something that happens in your brain I'd love to study this I think it'd be interesting there's something that happens in my brain where I'm stuck on something for several days and then I'll just be like making a sandwich or yeah I think you and Naomi often say like oh was on a run and I i suddenly realized how to yeah fix this problem
00:24:57
Speaker
And there is something about your brain actually creating those these like synaptic responses to create a problem, ah sorry, a solution to a problem and that you just don't get otherwise. So I do think you remember those books better, the ones that you decide to go on and say, yeah, there's something here. I'm going to edit this. I'm going to develop it over an amount of time. and Undying Tower, I didn't.
00:25:19
Speaker
um plot so it is it it was really long the process took like over a year and so I do remember it quite well and I remember all the old iterations and all that kind of stuff um love life I wrote during covid when I had literally nothing else to do love I was so bored and I remember I was trapped upstairs because it was really really hot and we didn't have a garden we lived somewhere we didn't have garden we were renting this place and and my partner was a teacher and he was online all day every day teaching and the only office we had because he'd never really been a work from home person and I had a laptop so I would just you know sit on the bed all the time which is really bad for you back
00:25:58
Speaker
And so we had like this, we had to quickly set up an office and that ended up being in our hallway between like me and the kitchen and being outside. So I was kind of trapped upstairs with the bathroom. And so I would just sit there all day with nothing to do. So I do remember quite vividly writing that one because i was so, so bored.
00:26:15
Speaker
um Soulmates, I do not remember as much because I think it was... I pitched it and I wanted to get my new contract. And that was one of the first ones where I felt like I was in that role in contract mode, even though it hadn't been contracted yet. So it's like pitching it, talking to the publisher, trying to get a first draft down as, you know, what is it? um Less a haste, more speed, trying to get it down quickly, but in a coherent way. So I don't remember that one as much. And then I worked with the publisher to edit it. So it was a bit different. And and then, yeah, definitely to the death. I remember quite well because, um yeah, it was it was one of my I like to I got to a point where i started writing books in January. A first draft, a really awful first draft in January, not a finished book. and And I just remember that one because my agent was really excited about it. And Lucy kept texting me when she was reading sections saying it was really exciting and she really loved it. So i do remember that because I was getting loads of praise. Cause at the end of the day, I am nothing, if just a girl slash golden retriever. So I just like laying on the praise. Um, yeah. So I definitely remember those ones, but yeah, nothing, nothing quite prepares you for the fact you do forget how to write a book before starting the new one though.
00:27:24
Speaker
nice exhausted Yeah. Yeah. I've heard that. And then yeah I've heard a lot authors saying like, and it doesn't matter how many books you write. Adrian Tchaikovsky said this, I keep talking about him because he, which is an interesting guy. pasal is they one up I keep bringing him up in in almost but all my interviews now. He was saying like, yeah, I mean, he's obviously internationally successful, incredibly critically acclaimed. Yeah, I've heard of him.
00:27:45
Speaker
And he still, yeah, I've heard of him. He still says like when he starts a book, he still gets that kind of feeling of like, how do I do this? Like maybe, maybe I can't do this. Maybe, maybe, you know, maybe it was just lucky all the other like 30 times or whatever. Yeah. It's bizarre. I think it's just getting an idea. I mean, it's the same literally right now as I'm answering your questions. People often say like, oh, you're a writer. Say something in this poignant moment or something happens and they say, oh, you say something. You're a writer. You've written comedy. Say something funny. It's like, no, no. If you want me to do something funny, I need like six weeks. A wine box, probably. Loads loads of biscuits and stuff. I need my computer. I need, you know, it doesn't come to me that naturally.
Crafting Surprising Plot Twists
00:28:31
Speaker
So even as I'm like speaking to you right now, for instance, and having to think of the answers because I'm not editing as I go and making sure everything makes sense. Um, I think sometimes when you have an idea in your head and you really want to get it onto paper, it is that there's a meme online where it's like, you know, idea in my head, it's a beautiful horse, like muscular flowing mane in the wind type thing. And then like on paper, it's like a child's drawing of a horse with six legs and gets the tail. And it does feel like that because there's so much to get out of your head onto the page.
00:28:58
Speaker
It can feel overwhelming. And I think that's where that terror starts with the blank. there There's nothing worse than a blank page. like it's the ah It's the worst bit before you've done anything at all. It's the worst, which is why a lot of people, I think, also don't fit often finish their first drafts and keep going back and editing.
00:29:14
Speaker
Because I'm like, at least I have something here, you know, whereas there's no better feeling than the second draft, in my opinion, where you have a whole book, even if it's rubbish, but you have the whole thing. So you could go back and you could be like, okay, I've got something to work with here as opposed to absolutely nothing.
00:29:30
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, There's definitely something to be said for the, there is it you you know, you, everyone loves to write the end and be like, whew, first draft done. And then you'll probably wait a day or so because then there's, you look at the word count and you're like, that's a lot of editing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like just looking at cutting things, it's just, it's an interesting part of the process because I always think I remember that better. And I think that's where you really start to make those connections in your head about the story, as opposed to just trying to get something out of your head onto paper. And not just onto paper, but in a way that someone who isn't you would understand what's happening, which just feels like an impossible task.
00:30:06
Speaker
Yes. It's even more possible because, yeah, the part where it's like someone other than you wouldn't understand. And it works both ways because also if you're trying to write something which is like a twist or like a reveal and then you're like, no what if I'm saying too much here what if What if it's going to be too obvious? And then they're going be I'm going to do this thing as if it's a big reveal. And then the the reader just goes and be like, yeah, duh.
00:30:27
Speaker
Yes. you know Yes. That's such a big one that most of my notes, cause I'm a plotter. So I'm not necessarily thinking about those bits when I write the first draft. So many of my notes, like developmental notes are always like somebody saying this was such a big surprise when this was revealed to the point where I literally don't even understand how it's possible. This character is the murderer or is the model. And then I also get the absolute flip, which is, Oh, it was a lovely reveal scene. Um, I had guessed it on page two.
00:30:56
Speaker
uh maybe less bread crumbing and it's like oh okay so yeah exactly that kind of stuff then but kicks in yeah which makes you as a reader makes me so appreciate when i when i read something that's like a clever reveal or a clever twist and you're like you're like damn you foreshadowed that perfectly where i was yeah just about to get there and just as you revealed it i was like yes that was it that was on the tip of my tongue Yeah. I always say that I think you should have, says the person who always says I never get the twist because I don't do a lot of this kind of genre. But I always think if you do a twist and he's a 10% hit rate, like I reckon if 10% of readers have got it, that's a really well hidden twist because you want some people to get it because you want it to be gettable. And you want some people to go, yes, I got it and feel really pleased with themselves for being so smart. And then you want the other 90% to be berating themselves for being dumb.
00:31:47
Speaker
That's what you want. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly what you want. Yeah. You want people to be like, my God, i I should just stop reading at this point because I'm not worthy. No, but a part of me is like, that's, there's some Agatha Christie stuff.
Writing Methods & Genre Expectations
00:32:00
Speaker
And I think Agatha Christie is great. And one of the best selling authors of all time, but yeah, there's some stuff where I'm like, you cheated. You know, I, it was not possible for me to solve this crime. It's why I didn't love, um, murder on the orange express. I was going to say, because I'd never read it, but watched the film.
00:32:23
Speaker
I was like, really? It's like you broke you broke the rules. we have like ah We had an unwritten contract that you were going to give me clues and there would be a chance that I could guess which of the people did the murder. And yeah and i I felt cheated the first time I saw i was like, what do you mean?
00:32:40
Speaker
So anyone I guessed was technically correct. like Yeah. Yeah. Because, oh yeah, spoilers. It's everyone. but Why? And then you wonder with those, like, did she think of that from the beginning or did she decide later, like absolute curveball? Cause we've all done that. Like quite often, um, my mentees. So I work as like a book coach as well. People haven't already heard me 5 million times on this podcast. And ah quite often they'll say, oh, first chapters, you know, that's the most important bit to grab an agent or an editor or even a reader to buy the book. You know, we've all read books where it's got a great first half and then maybe it doesn't stick the landing and then you just kind of close and go, meh. But also you've already paid for the book, so it's already shot up the charts or whatever. They oh, first chapter, they're so, so important and they are. But often it's...
00:33:24
Speaker
it's number of times it's like the last thing I've written really late in the process. Um, and so you wonder sometimes how much people think, Oh, this is going to be the opening in advance. Like the one I've just, that I'm going to be going on submission with shortly that I've re it must've had like five different opening chapters, you know? And then yeah obviously that changes the whole vibe of the book because it's the opening chapter. So it's like your first impression. So I don't know how much people like with the twists and stuff, how much they think I'm going to change this later because obviously you need to breadcrumb it.
00:33:56
Speaker
So I'm never quite sure. Or do they know the twist? I don't know. i've had it's injurri i've I've had so many different people telling me about different things like that. Like i had Ariel Sullivan on the other day. She she writes, um she's more of a pantser, but she does sort of ah kind of checkpoint in the book. But she writes the last chapter first and then she starts and she writes chronologically from there, which I thought was interesting. In terms of, I think most people tend to add breadcrumbs. Yeah.
00:34:23
Speaker
in redrafts and edits but I I can't remember what it was had a sci-fi author on and he It was Nicholas Binge episode 218 would randomly throw breadcrumbs, not knowing where they were going to lead, uh, later on in the book throughout his chapters, as he was writing, he, in one of his books, he, he had a countdown going at the start of each chapter. And he didn't know he was, ah as i was writing it, i didn't know what this countdown was going to be. And then yeah figured it out later on. yeah So
00:34:57
Speaker
I think, you know, there's not like we always say, there's no one way of doing it. There's no correct way of doing it. yeah Just find, find, ah find a way that works for you. Yeah. And I think it's always interesting hearing how different people do it. And then if they, as you were saying, like writing the new book, if they do repeat the same method for the new book. Yeah. And then as we were talking about, when you compare like different books and stuff and think, oh, this is the same as this book. Has it been copied from X? And sometimes you copy stuff from your own books, obviously, yeah because you're under contract. You've got to get the book written. Yeah. So you may lift stuff from your previous experience and put it in the book, which I think is quite interesting.
00:35:35
Speaker
Yeah. And I can't tell you how many psychological thriller authors I've had on who every time I get a psychological thriller on, like, no, surely you are a planner. They're all pantsers. They literally are all pantsers and they don't know who did it until they've finished the book.
00:35:50
Speaker
You know, they find out halfway through like what the twist is and stuff. and I'm like, how are you writing in this genre? So chaotically. Yeah. I suppose that's where the weather rewrite comes in though, right? Like we were talking about.
00:36:01
Speaker
Yeah. is That's when they're going to finesse that entire storyline and work out where those red herrings were that they obviously probably just drop at some point because they realize it's not that person. And it's like, ah this character disappears after chapter 12. Oh, right. Yeah. probably should put them back in. Maybe that's also the secret to why the the twists are often so like good. because That's what I was wondering. if you If you know, if you've planned it and you're going in and you're like, you are kind of, I don't know, if you don't know, it's going to be so shocking even to you.
00:36:28
Speaker
Yeah. And it depends what you want to say as well. So obviously we're talking about, again, like genres where perhaps... Maybe the theme of today is, are there any original stories left? um And I think whatever you want to say also comes into, you know, what makes it original. You know, I've been tagged in some reviews, which are quite nice um ah because people, when they tag you nice review, obviously I do go and have a look. even I try and avoid reviews. And a lot of people have picked up some of the stuff I was trying to say that is, say, very different from dystopia being written in the 2010s I was reading, which was covering very different topics with that big heyday in the 2010s, is there is an entire situation where there's an island of people who need help and they really want to get across the small channel to the other island, but it's patrolled by boats that get shot out of the water if they try and make it across.
Subtle Influences in Dystopian Themes
00:37:19
Speaker
And the government is not helping them. And so obviously that's maybe something that wouldn't have crept in. And I don't even know if I did that consciously to start with. I noticed it halfway through, I think. And you start to think, did did this, this probably would not have crept in earlier because that's obviously a real world thing I'm thinking about and that has crept into the text.
00:37:40
Speaker
So i always think that's interesting as well. Things that creep in just from the process of writing. So whether it be a twist or whether it be just things around you or watching the traitors and thinking, oh I'd love to have a golden envelope challenge or even anything silly like that. you know, these things that creep in through the writing process.
00:37:56
Speaker
That wouldn't work if you weren't actively writing over ah a period of time. Because that's the other problem is I write my drafts quite quickly, but some people write over a year and that yeah is, but you know, it has pros and cons over writing in a month because obviously also you're getting influenced by outside things over that year.
00:38:13
Speaker
Yeah. And everything you're reading in that space as well. I know a people not to read when they're at different stages of their writing or they'll read out of genre or, or God forbid, they'll read nonfiction. um No, we love, we love nonfiction.
Reading Preferences & Seasonal Habits
00:38:25
Speaker
um We are at the point in the episode where I, used to ask people which book they would take if they were stranded on desert island. But I don't know if i warned you about this, but the new question is, Melissa, if you were snowed in at a cozy woodland cabin in the middle of nowhere, which book would you hope to have with you?
00:38:45
Speaker
Oh, ill no. at Cozy Woodland Cabin is the one throwing me. So I am a beach reader. like The rest of the year, I prioritize books like I've been sent to a Blurb, right? And even though I really enjoy those books, I don't say yes to books unless I look like they look really fun and I'm going to enjoy them. And also I'm very lucky that the publicists that approach me usually know that I am a dystopian girly and I'm quite set in my genre. So they they give me books that I would be really interested in.
00:39:15
Speaker
and Honestly, books I choose for myself. I read when I'm in a sunny setting. Like I'm not a ski girl. I am an apres ski girl. I would enjoy the cabin part of this lodge. whilst step everyone's out in the avalanche outside being rescued by helicopter and I'm sat inside the cozy lodge.
00:39:32
Speaker
um So that's the bit I'm struggling with because i also have very recently got into like seasonal reading. So I'm thinking like, would I want to read a Christmassy book?
00:39:44
Speaker
Like Andrina Cordani has all these ah locked room, well, some of them are locked room, but a murder mystery books. and Like she's got the Scrooge mysteries and, and oh gosh, all sorts of ones, like ones where they're trapped in a toy shop, which actually felt a bit like Saw. I love Saw. And like they're like picking them off one by one, all these bad people in this toy shop and it's Christmas. and So I feel like I might want to read something seasonal or actually after watching Heated Rivalry like five times, I would maybe want like an one of the ice hockey, ice skating romance type ones. Okay. Yeah. Like, that bad yeah, yeah. Like Finding Her Edge. I just watched. I would like to read those. They they look really fun.
00:40:24
Speaker
So, yeah, I think I would take those if I knew I was going to be snowed into this cabin. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like I want something like it that matches the vibe outside. Okay. So like a Christmas or an ice hockey. Yeah. Yeah. So maybe I'd read all the heaters because I know there's a few heated rivalry ones or finding her edge. The Challengers series. and Yeah.
00:40:42
Speaker
i Yeah. Maybe I'd read those. That's what I would read because I haven't read them yet. That would keep going. Am I allowed more than one? Sorry, I've cheated. Well, if I don't know how long they are, if you can bind them all together, you can take, that you can take as many as you can bind. That's always my rule. Okay, great. You know, it's I love this new question because it's, it's, it's getting very different answers to people being stranded on a desert island.
00:41:07
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I went to, I went to prepper for that one. I've clearly given up. You took the Argos catalogue. I did take the Argos catalogue, which shows how long I've been coming on here because that has gone. Yeah.
00:41:20
Speaker
um yeah it's funny i get a weird amount of surprising amount of horror people seem because they see i think they see feel much safer in this environment they're like oh i'll take a horror book oh wow yeah yeah but no one's taking horror the desert island so yeah that's true it does island does feel scarier yeah because you did say i was like snowed in so that could be really dangerous but i'm clearly ignoring it to read heated rivalries that seems yeah Yeah. mean, you might as well have fun with it though. yeah I mean, you know, whos my last few hours on like um next up, we are going to pick up a bit on where we left off. We're going to go a bit back and talk about the sort of publishing process throughout Melissa's career.
Closing Remarks & Follow Melissa
00:42:03
Speaker
And then, and then I've got some sort of rapid fire.
00:42:05
Speaker
I said some sort of, I'm reading my notes as if for the first time, that i've got some, some more rapid fire questions about industry stuff, which we're going to discuss that will all be available in the extended episode on patreon.com forward slash right and wrong.
00:42:19
Speaker
If I went to someone's bookshelf and it was just a row sprayed edges, I'd be like, what is this? What am I looking at? yeah Where's the actual book? Yeah, because it's not always obvious from the sprayed edge what the book is.
00:42:30
Speaker
It's almost never obvious what the hell is. Yeah, yeah. It's very nice. It is it isn't a weird one. Yeah. And do they remember? Maybe they do. Maybe they do. They probably do. Yeah. I don't know. um But that brings us to the end of the episode.
00:42:43
Speaker
Thank you so much, Melissa, for coming on and chatting with us and catching up and telling us all about your new book, To the Death, which is out on the 26th of March. It's been, as always, a pleasure to chat with you.
00:42:55
Speaker
Thank you. Yeah, thanks for having me. And for anyone listening, if you want to keep up with what Melissa is doing, you can find her on TikTok at Melissa Welliver and on everything else at Meliver. And she has a website, melissawellever.com. To support this podcast, like, follow and subscribe.
00:43:14
Speaker
Also, follow my other podcast, The Chosen Ones and Other Tropes, for even more Melissa. And make sure you join the Patreon for ad-free extended episodes. Thanks again, Melissa. Thanks to everyone listening.
00:43:25
Speaker
We will catch you on the next episode.