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274 Naomi Gibson | Horror, Romance & Thriller Author
302 Plays8 days ago
YA and adult horromance and thriller author, Naomi Gibson is back to chat about her latest book, moving from YA to adult and everything that has been going on with her. The extended episode features a very candid discussion on her experiences with publishing over the years.
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Transcript
The Role of Writing in Fixing Plot Holes
00:00:00
Speaker
Ooh, a spicy question. I love it. Because the writing sort of everything, right? Like you can fix plot holes, but if the writer... So some readers love that and some readers are like, but I wanted more of this. So it's kind of, it's kind of a gamble.
Meet Naomi Gibson: Author Introduction
00:00:14
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to the Right and Wrong podcast. With me today is a YA and adult author of sci-fi thrillers and dark academia. One of my fellow co-hosts on the Chosen Ones and Other Tropes podcast and my good friend, Naomi Gibson.
00:00:29
Speaker
Hello.
Upcoming Novel: Man Muse Monster
00:00:30
Speaker
too much around me it's it's weird not having melvin here yes i know its i was just thinking it's been a long time since you've been on this podcast we're always doing chosen ones but it's been a ah few years i think before you came on right and wrong um but you're here today so let's start as always with the latest publication and that is your upcoming dark academia novel man muse monster hit me with the pitch
00:01:01
Speaker
Oh, Jamie. Come on. The pitch is, it's an adult dark academia about an artist, a struggling artist who uses a muse to further his career and discovers the true cost of greatness. tatanta dead And this is, um, not only is this your debut adult novel, um, but this is your first
Genre Pivot: Sales and Strategies
00:01:31
Speaker
novel. That's not a tech themed thriller.
00:01:35
Speaker
Yeah, that's so true. Yeah. So what, what prompted that kind of creative change of direction? Um, what prompted that change? So I,
00:01:47
Speaker
ah so So yeah, so both of my YAs were kind of techie, like a little bit black mirror-y. And i'm at the end of my two-book contract with Chicken House, um it basically...
00:02:00
Speaker
it just meant that it came out that my books hadn't, I mean, they'd sold, but they hadn't sold like amazingly well to really continue writing in that vein. And so i was asked to pivot and I wrote uh, kind of like a, ah got um a botanical horror kind of thing, like a YA botanical horror. Um, and chicken house ended up rejecting it. So that probably never went anywhere. So, um, and but I think actually being asked to write in a different vein probably sponsored,
00:02:29
Speaker
ah probably um prompted uh something in me also internally and just realized that actually I can write other things and it was really fun actually to write something that um had no mobile phones talking to people and no computers doing their own little thing in the background and no vr ah going weird um and and i was like ah you know there are other things that are available for me as a writer show I can write other other genres and so um I'd wanted to write an adult book for a while and I had actually written a couple of adult manuscripts.
Love for Gothic and Campus Themes
00:03:00
Speaker
And one of them was also a dark academia and went out and subbed with my adult agent, which was then Cassia Lupo. and it didn't sell. um And whilst that was on Serb, I was writing something else, which is another dark academia. um Because I really just like, and i really have a love for campus-based stories at the moment. And just like that kind of like, particularly if they're like really gothic and isolated and um just that kind of like enclosed world feeling. um
00:03:31
Speaker
But you have like a kind of like a little encapsulated hierarchy within it. So you've got a dean, you've got students, you've got professors, buth blah, blah, blah. Yeah. And so, and but I had also written, sorry, no, I had also done um a degree in art history back in the day.
00:03:49
Speaker
And, you know, I've never really used it. You know, people say all the time, like, you never use a humanities degree. Well, tell you what, 15 years later, I proved you wrong. so um And so it was really fun to to write about art. um And I think actually,
00:04:07
Speaker
I wrote that book, I wrote this book for me.
Marketing Genre Mashups: Challenges
00:04:09
Speaker
So I wrote, i kind of wrote Mammy's Monster for myself, I think probably. um and I ended up giving it to my agent and we sent it out on sub and this one actually found a home. there go. so here we are. Okay. That's interesting. The, yeah, so you'd already kind of been thinking about moving into adult um and then just kind of being prompted, I guess, by Checking House to to move into more horror.
00:04:36
Speaker
ah I mean, horror fantasy, I guess. um Yeah, it's it's it's a bit of a weird genre mashup, if I'm honest. ah it's So Renegade, my publisher, are calling it a dark academia horror month. I would say it's probably, ah yeah, I would say it's it is definitely a dark academia because it's got that sort campus sort of vibe. and But I wouldn't say that it's really a horror or a romance either. So I think that's kind of why they were like, it's horror month. And that's kind of like a bit of industry buzzword at the moment. So got to get that in for marketing, you know. Yeah, it does. It does feel like horror that the industry is trying to push, well, parts of the industry are trying to push horror romance as the new like romanticcy.
00:05:21
Speaker
Definitely. I think, I think whenever there's like a book fair, you always hear that editors are sick of romanticcy, but they keep buying it.
Industry Trends: Romantic Fantasy vs. Authors
00:05:28
Speaker
But I think they're all waiting for something else with coupled with romance and I think people are trying to push horror months as the next thing um so but I would say that anything that is so like a romantic see I would say that that probably has a romantic a plot and everything else yeah probably a subplot whereas um this is a romantic subplot it's not the main plot so I wouldn't I don't know it's it's definitely got romantic elements but it's not romance led if that makes sense
00:05:58
Speaker
Okay, because the to the horror comes first. that are The horror romance, not romanora. Yeah, that's true actually. Yeah, it's different way around, isn't it? Yeah.
00:06:08
Speaker
I was talking about this um with with an agent recently and we were talking about how authors are clearly defining themselves as romantic fantasy authors instead of romantic author to let you know that A romantic author, the A plot is the romance and and the sort of the world building is second to that. But a romantic fantasy author, the romance and the world building is kind of equal footing. And that's yeah kind of what we landed on. So that's what we are saying with the horror, horror romance here.
00:06:40
Speaker
Yeah. I think there is a ah difference, isn't there? For romantic fantasy. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. But what I do think is also interesting is I think it's um George R. R. Martin always says that he, I don't know if he always says this. He has said this, I believe, that he sees himself more as more of a sci-fi writer.
00:07:01
Speaker
Okay. Even though obviously Game of Thrones is the thing that he's most well known for. Elden Ring, one of my gamers out there. um like all of those tropes can kind of quite easily be shifted into a sci-fi theme. So like the white walkers are like a zombie thing that can be like a hive mind in space kind of thing.
00:07:25
Speaker
So when it comes to like your, your stuff here, like the muse, ah like couldn't, you could make that into like a tech thing. You know what I mean? It could be interchangeable in some ways. Yeah.
00:07:38
Speaker
There's definite parallels between my muse and Henry that I wrote about for every line of view, Clearly just obsessed with that sort of speculative element, I think. Yeah.
00:07:50
Speaker
Yeah.
Evolving Genres: Tech Thrillers to Horror Romance
00:07:51
Speaker
Of like almost creating your own monster. Yeah, for sure. Little Frankenstein. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess it's not like unsurprising that you've kind of leaned into this side of things. And also the there's definitely crossover between horror and thriller as like genres.
00:08:12
Speaker
yeah So it's a pretty natural organic progression for you, I think, to move from tech thrillers into horror romance. haven't I haven't got it rolling off the tongue yet.
00:08:25
Speaker
flow quite as well romantic does it yeah and yeah i i think so speaking of like the kind of growth of your style let's talk about the process m we've talked about your process many times uh across the years on this podcast and then on uh chosen ones as well but you when you first started 100% pantser with every line of view Has that changed over the years?
Writing Process: Character Development Without Plotting
00:08:55
Speaker
Have you sort of moved into different things and then come back? Or is it, do you feel like you write in exactly the same way as you wrote your first book?
00:09:05
Speaker
Um, probably. Yeah. Um, so for every line of view, um, i' for so for all my books, um I always really develop a character first, I think.
00:09:24
Speaker
Um, don't, just, I go in, knowing what the character wants and what they fear the most, um what the worst thing in the world that can happen to them. I make sure I know that very, very clearly.
00:09:36
Speaker
um And what they want. And then, yeah, I just go in and kind of follow them around. still don't plot. I still don't really... i still don't really i think I think in my head I probably know the ending and I just chase the ending. and So i kind of know what's going to happen to my character. Will they get what they want? will Won't they get what they want? And why?
00:09:58
Speaker
And I'll just chase that. But um there it probably does change halfway through the book. My ending in my head, my I might think of a better ending halfway through and I'll be like, okay, I'll chase that now. I'm just head towards that.
00:10:09
Speaker
um So it's still just as chaotic. and It's not very organized. The only thing I do is is definitely think about character and what what they want um what probably what their situation is so for like this for man muse monster my main character harry no yeah sorry it's harry so i'm writing a different one right at the moment i'm just getting the confused i keep writing harry in my new book and i'm like no his name's not harry um so for harry in man muse monster um so he's got this like but family legacy weighing heavily on his shoulders that he really wants to live up to And and they're all all of his family are all really successful in the arts. So his grandfather won an Oscar for a Best Original Score. He's got um you know a Pulitzer Prize winning uncle who's a writer. He's got um a poet in the family who was really well known. He's studied by school children. So he's he's just got a lot to live up to.
00:11:04
Speaker
and and and, in order to, to push him to, to, so my whole premise was that this artist finds a muse and they work together. And so in order for an artist to, to want to give up control and want to work with somebody else, I had to pile on the pressure. So he's got this massive family legacy weighing heavy on his shoulders and he's got, um and he's also in this art school and he got, ah he got a scholarship. He didn't get there.
00:11:33
Speaker
You know, he got, he, he basically was good enough to get in as a scholarship ah but he felt he feels the pressure from that because he's not good enough. Um, he's not as good as everybody else and he gets the most criticism in their crit class. And so that's more pressure. And then the other pressure was just that he's basically skinned, you know, he's comes from this room um and this really, ah posh family that just like the, the property is in the dumps. His uncle's an alcoholic. He's got no money. um and the scholarship, um, comes with a grant and he spent his grant within like a week. Um, And so he's just got all this pressure and eventually...
Building Character Pressure
00:12:10
Speaker
he collides with this muse and this muse goes, I can help you. And he's like, yes, help me. and So i i I work that out before I go in. So my opening chapters were kind of like explaining this pressure and where it comes from. and then when, by the time you finally meet the muse, hopefully the reader's like, yes, go Harry. You know, he's going to, he's going to get finally what he wants. He's going to become great. He's going to become famous. He's going to be this artist.
00:12:33
Speaker
And then the rest of the book is about him working with that muse, um his career kind of taking off. And and then actually he he realizes that actually maybe this isn't what he wanted and maybe this is actually a really bad idea. Okay. So like so there is sort of a plan to some degree, but your plan is you basically just, do you write out all of the character stuff? So for for Harry, did you like have like a kind of piece of paper where you'd written out all of the stuff or was it all just kind of collated in your head?
00:13:04
Speaker
Um, I'd written out some of it. So I like to do a little spider diagram. um so probably I'll just have like my main character's name in the middle of the page and I'll just shoot off like what, what's he got going on? Like he's this old, he looks this way, his family's like this, he's a, he's an orphan, you know, that kind of thing. Um, and so I'll probably have some of it.
00:13:24
Speaker
Um, and then I'll go in and I'll probably discover other things as I go along. And the one thing that I definitely didn't plan going on in was, and so obviously Harry's a guy. My muse is also a guy. wanted I very specifically wanted to gender flip it and But I didn't set out to write a romantic subplot between them. and That was a surprise that came to me halfway through. i was like, oh, this is happening now. Okay, we'll run with it. um But um so that's something um I didn't really plan on. It wasn't ever going to be a romance. It was going to be like a straight horror movie. where this guy realizes actually how horrible it would be to be a famous artist. And this muse was like this more sinister character. And ah and he still is really sinister, but there's like, i've he's a lot more vulnerable than he was. and so They kind of play into each other's like toxicities almost.
00:14:18
Speaker
a really toxic romance. Yes. um Okay. That's interesting. So yeah there is like a physical, yeah. You know what? Your planning actually sounds a lot like um I spoke with Adrian Tchaikovsky long ago. And his planning whilst the scope of it is somewhat larger because he's talking we're talking with his stuff, it's usually like, you know, universe, civilizations, empires kind of things. um But his, it sounds quite similar. but He basically just has like maps out all of the world, all of the politics, all of the characters.
00:15:00
Speaker
And then he just says in a similar way to you, I think he he's like, yeah, and then I just basically press, you know, press go, press play. He's like, everything is kind of predetermined because I know exactly what these characters are going to do. i just haven't written out yet. And as I'm writing it, I'm like, yeah. And then they would obviously do that and they would do that yeah and they would do that. And then this would happen.
00:15:20
Speaker
yeah So it's surprisingly similar, I would say, your two styles of of
Evolution of Writing Style: YA to Adult
00:15:25
Speaker
writing. But you do do quite a lot of prep work in terms of you really drill down on that character and you're flexible to open to like move things around. But that's interesting. And I think that's a cool if people are listening and they're looking for like ways to maybe try new things, try try new writing techniques. Just if you want to pants like, yeah, the spider diagram thing with the character, that's great. I think that's a cool thing to try.
00:15:46
Speaker
hmm. Yeah, very cool. And you're in great company. Didn't you do a panel once with Adrian Tchaikovsky? Oh, sorry. Yeah, no. I actually met him. and We had a drink together. I never talked about that though. You didn't talk about your process. yeah You're like, we're the same. We're new Asian.
00:16:07
Speaker
Read my books. ah In terms of writing, you, you're, are you still working on YA stuff? Are you focusing on adult for now? are you kind of juggling both?
00:16:21
Speaker
um Yeah, interesting question. So i i have I do still want to write YA and I have an idea for a YA book, but um I haven't, I think there are other things I'm more interested in if that makes any sense. Right, and And I think actually my writing has naturally aged up.
00:16:39
Speaker
And I did write YA, I think, last year in 2025. And I was reading it and i was like, m I'm not actually sure if this sounds YA or not. It just so happens that the character's like 17. So I think I need to be a bit more careful because I think my writing, because I've i've written and like two adult books back to back pretty much. And I i wonder, and I also, just the way that I write books, I think has changed a little bit just in the voice that I use. And if i really am going through a third person binge at the moment, whereas I used to write exclusively in first. And I think, maybe third sounds just a little bit more adult like because a lot of YA books tend to be first person um and not that a third person book can't be YA but I think if you're going to pick a YA book off the shelf it's probably going to be first person and and so just the fact that I seem to have switched to third um probably doesn't lend itself as nicely to YA but there are the odd YA writers who who do do third
00:17:42
Speaker
So I think just, i I just personally seem to have changed my voice, what I'm interested in writing about and the way that I write it as well. So and yeah, I probably am focusing more on adult, just and in justice where my brain's going, but it's not that I don't want to write YA.
00:18:01
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Just for now.
The Evolution of YA and New Adult Genres
00:18:04
Speaker
Yeah. But also just, I'm so busy. Like i have ah I have a full-time job. Um, book one comes out, um, you know, next week. Um, I'm trying redraft book two. I've got edits from,
00:18:21
Speaker
John on book what could potentially be book three. And I've got this other adult idea that I've tested a couple of times. And so then this is YA idea floating around the background. So I just, yeah, I don't know. I think at the moment it's whatever shouts loudest in my brain. And I don't think YA is so much.
00:18:38
Speaker
Yeah, you've got to write the thing that you're energized about or the thing that you're on contract for, obviously. Exactly. Yeah. The one that pays, that's the one. yeah The, well, an interesting time as well for YA. I've talked to a few people about this recently, is that YA because of things like new adult sort of solidifying itself as this kind of big new category it is YA I think is kind of in a state of flux and I think there's a there's a good chance that
00:19:12
Speaker
where I see things settling now is that YA might age down and it might become what it kind of was a bit more historically sort of like 14 to 16 and then new adult might fill in the spot where some of the in quotes older YA has been sitting from like 18 upwards.
00:19:31
Speaker
Yeah I think it's definitely shifted hasn't it I think um appetites have really changed it's actually been interesting to see um and when you walk into waterstones sometimes on some of the book tables, there's these books that are going nuts on Booktalk and I wouldn't say that they're YA and they're in the YA section. and So I think it's it's very mixed boundaries at the moment like with what is considered YA and what isn't and there everything's just shoved together.
00:20:01
Speaker
yes So I think you're right. It's probably going to separate out. But you know if I got a ah book deal like tomorrow, i'm probably talking like a 2028 publishing date.
00:20:12
Speaker
And so by that time, will it have settled i don't know will it will there be clearer boundaries that's true i don't know yeah but because i mean you'll see sarah j mass on ya tables yeah and i'm sure if you were a parent of a 14 year old you probably would have mixed feelings about whether they read something like that or not yeah definitely So yeah, a part of me thinks that, yeah, YA is going to become that kind of younger teen, which is sort of where it used to be.
00:20:47
Speaker
And then new adult will become the spicier stuff and the older teen stuff. But new adult also goes up to like 20s. So it's, who knows with these things, but maybe, yeah, maybe you'll find yourself settling back down into something more like a new adult than ah than a YA. Yeah.
00:21:04
Speaker
Yeah, I wonder that. John floated that term past me before. and I think historically, um it's always if no one's ever known what a new adult really is. like yeah um Whereas I wonder if you're right, that's going to become more of a solid on solid category. sorry Yes, it hasn't it hasn't crystallized yet. The boundaries haven't quite been set.
00:21:23
Speaker
We're still kind of waiting. We're still in limbo. Yeah. You mentioned earlier that you went back and read something that you'd written last year and you were like, Oh yeah, I don't know
Reflecting on Debut Work: Growth and Change
00:21:33
Speaker
about this. Do you ever go back and read like your old stuff and even something just like your published stuff, like every line of you or something just to see how you've changed or like if you haven't changed or anything?
00:21:46
Speaker
Yeah. Um, it's not very pleasant.
00:21:54
Speaker
It's like, I wrote every line of view, right. And I was, um, that was my debut, my very first, uh, book ever to be published. And I was like convinced that this was going to change the world. Um, I dunno, it did very well. I got a lot of attention and it was, you know, whatever, but, um,
00:22:11
Speaker
looking back at it and if I read if I read it now I'm just like uh I don't know it's not that I don't know because ah i'm on the one hand you know it's got me where I am and so I'm really proud of it in that respect but on the other I'm just kind of like I would not write things like that anymore I don't know so yeah it's kind of cringy it's like it's like looking at a picture of yourself from like 10 years with a different dress style and like different haircut and stuff and you're like ah what was I doing I know that's it it's you just get anxiety about something you said to someone once and it's like actually it's just a whole book and the whole world's read it and now you're like book okay well that's uh that's fun to know um and that brings us to the point in the episode where last time you were on it was um I marooned you on a desert island and the book that you chose to take with you was do you remember
00:23:06
Speaker
The binding. It was the binding. Yes. Bridget Collins. Um, but now it's, uh, I've saved you from the Island and I've dropped you off, uh, in the middle of nowhere and you are snowed in at a cozy woodland cabin.
00:23:23
Speaker
Which book would you hope to have with you now?
Favorite Books: Snowed in with CG Drews
00:23:26
Speaker
Well, part of me is still tempted to take the binding. i actually still really like it. And I think it transcends desert islands and snowy caverns. Transcends geography. But I realize that's probably a boring answer. So I have and i think I of probably... so there's this... um also called CG Drews, they write YA and they've also just recently released an adult book, which I haven't read yet. But their YA books are so beautifully written. um so They write um like a botanical horror type stuff. um And one of them is about a boy who...
00:24:10
Speaker
ah writes stories and his friend draws them and the drawings come to life in the forest outside their school and they have to battle all these monsters in the forest and he is like this unreliable narrator in and and it's just full of like teenage yearning and discovering yourself and it's just ah but the way that it's written is just so atmospheric and it's just really beautiful beautiful descriptions and You know, when you you finish something and you're like, I both loved and hated that because it's so perfect.
00:24:45
Speaker
Yeah. um So that's that's definitely a book I would take. And I'd probably take the second one, which I've just finished reading, which is called Hazel Thorn. And that is about um like ah kind of like a garden that's slowly coming to life at the back of someone's old gothic house and that's just just as beautiful just as descriptive so I really like the way that those are written I think um and just like such cool concepts um yeah I wish that I was that clever um Naomi Gibson and unreliable narrators name a more iconic duo there you go can't help myself That first one is, I've got it up on my screen here. Don't let the forest in. That the first one?
00:25:26
Speaker
What a cool cover. It's amazing. It's so good. so With the claws tearing through it and the and the flowers coming out of the tears. Yeah. love and inside the book, it's got the illustrations as well of what the, what his friend is drawing and the stories that this, the main character writes and then the illustrations that the his friend draws. And they're just, they're so they're so unique and they're so kind of horrible. It's it's really cool. You know, like ah Pan's Labyrinth has got that kind of vibe, like it's sort of a little bit grotesque, a little bit uncanny. it' yeah It's kind of like that. It's really clever.
00:26:00
Speaker
um Okay. Yeah, that sounds great. And I adore that cover that I'm looking at right now. yeah um Awesome. That's a great pick. um Next up, we are going to chat about being a career author, how things kind of work and change over the years in publishing.
Being a Career Author: Changes Over Time
00:26:17
Speaker
That will all be available along with all the other extended episodes at patreon.com forward slash right and wrong.
00:26:25
Speaker
Something goes wrong. I don't know, you're probably better off having background to us whys as to why it's gone wrong um or why it's been a success. So, yeah. Yeah. I think ask questions is is generally good advice for life as well. Don't be afraid to ask questions. Yeah, that's true um And especially in with with publishing like if you have an agent if you know i can so understand why people are hesitant sometimes to ask the editor or the publisher something but like just go ahead and ask your agent or just ask your agent if it'll be okay for you to ask the editor and i'm sure it'll be fine or they'll clarify it for you yeah for sure
00:27:00
Speaker
Okay, amazing. That brings us to the the end of the
Podcast Closing: Social Media and Website
00:27:03
Speaker
episode. So thank you so much, Naomi, for coming on and chatting with me, telling us all about your your latest book, Man, Muse, Monster, which is out on the 23rd of April. um Yeah, it's it's always fun chatting with you.
00:27:15
Speaker
Thanks so much, Jamie. Appreciate it. And for anyone wanting to keep up with what Naomi is doing, you can find her on Instagram and TikTok at Naomi G. Writes, or you can find her on her website, NaomiGibsonWrites.com. To support this podcast, like, follow, and subscribe. Join the Patreon for ad-free extended episodes and get more with Naomi and Melissa on the my other podcast, The Chosen Ones and Other Tropes. Thanks again to Naomi and thanks to everyone listening. We will catch you on the next episode.