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257 John Baker | Literary Agent
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Literary agent, John Baker is here to chat about his career, publishing as a whole and how he approaches queries and finding new authors.
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Transcript
The Art of Storytelling and Writing
00:00:00
Speaker
Ooh, a spicy question. love it. Because the writing sort of everything, right? Like you can fix plot holes, but if the writer... So some readers love that and some readers are like, but I wanted more of this. So it's kind of, it's kind of a gamble.
Introduction to John Baker
00:00:14
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to the Right and Wrong podcast. With me today is the secretary of the Association of Authors Agents, advisory board member at Kingston University, and of course, literary agent at Bella Lomax Morton. It's John Baker. Hello.
00:00:30
Speaker
Hello, hello Jamie, hello podcast listeners. Very, very excited to be here. It's gonna fun. Yes, I'm excited to have you on.
Baker's Unexpected Path to Publishing
00:00:38
Speaker
um So when I'm fortunate enough to have a literary agent on the podcast, I always want to hear about the the kind of start, your origin in publishing. So my first question is, was publishing always the industry that you wanted to have a career in since you were younger?
00:00:57
Speaker
Oh, absolutely not. Absolutely not. No, this was, the idea of working in publishing was such a kind of like impossible, impossible idea. It wasn't even like a dream because i didn't think such dreams were possible. I don i thought, um like, I think I grew up with a kind of, in a a household where the kind of sciences were prioritized. not Not that like my parents were doing much in science i either, but they were still convinced that like science was the route you're supposed to go. And I kind of, I went from like zookeeper because loved animals, then from zookeeper to like something in the kind of biology animal kind of stuff like that. And then I really, and then kind of, as my kind of interest in education kind of diminished, um,
00:01:46
Speaker
that which was in my kind of like 18 period 18 to 19 period i went off and tri so tried to see the world well see the country really and just kind of want what moseyed around there and then it was through that that it was like well i still was still reading like two or three books like a week sometimes and just generally just kind of just eating all these books but i' never even thought like maybe i could be in that and then yeah and then i decided well i um um Maybe I'll just i try and become a writer instead.
Choosing Publishing Over Writing
00:02:16
Speaker
And I started them, oh and I swear to God, I would there would be i'd be terrified for anyone to actually find any of my early writing because like it was garbage.
00:02:27
Speaker
Like, good Lord. like I've never read anything in my slush pile that was as bad as some of the stuff that I'm sure is lurking in those drawers somewhere. ah But no, and then I did an English Lit Creative Writing degree. And then it was through the and act of that I realized writing was far too um um dedicated and solitary and kind of like you needed a special kind of brain to be a be a writer. And like luckily I worked with lots of people who do have that brain, but it was only from then i was just like, right, well, writing's not it, but maybe publishing and somebody kind of... um So yeah, i've sort sorry I've skipped into kind of the biography straight away, didn't I?
Impact of Mentorship on Career Choice
00:03:01
Speaker
But yes. That's great.
00:03:02
Speaker
yeah um But yeah, it was then i had a um um a lecturer, um the great David Prather, big up Dave, um who yeah went on a He did a lecture about the the publishing industry and things you could do with an English degree that wasn't writing, and it was about publishing industry, and he had ah he went on a bit of a rant about the the locusts of the publishing industry.
00:03:27
Speaker
um And all they do is go for coffees and go for drinks and talk about other people's books and act like they're adding something valuable to the conversation, but really they're just, you know, like... um you know taking their like greasy fingers all over things or something and I was just like, that sounds brilliant. like That sounds like... yeah um and I had like dodgy sales jobs before and done all sorts of bits and pieces.
Applying Sales Skills in Publishing
00:03:48
Speaker
so the kind of like Using the kind of like the sales ability and the kind of making like building connection and building like building enthusiasm for things and connecting with people and finding stuff they love um and using that you know all that stuff. But on books, i was just like, wow, I've been...
00:04:05
Speaker
Dream job, dream job found. So yeah, it was the first, the way the publishing, publishing was my first dream job when I discovered I even had the capacity to have a dream job. Like, so if not in maybe in that way, yes, it was. Yes, it was but my first dream job. But like, until it was the only, first it was the first time I ever actually locked in and was like, wow, I would love that. Yeah, it's funny as as well when I speak to so like agents, how a lot of them sort of thought they wanted to work in publishing to some degree. Some of them just kind of happened into it, but had had no idea what a literary agent was. So a lot of people come in and they're like oh, I think being an editor would be a cool thing to do or this, that and the
The Role of Editors and Agents
00:04:45
Speaker
other. And then they discover similar to you. They discover what a literary agent is and then they think, oh my God, that seems like the best job ever.
00:04:52
Speaker
yeah Yeah, can confirm, can confirm. It's the best job ever. it' So much fun. But no, it's true. And also there's like, you get an idea, yeah outside of publishing, you have an idea of what an editor does, which is obviously completely false. But you have an idea that they sit there and they edit um they edit edit manuscripts all day, every day, and they like do all the spelling and the grammar. And realistically, we know that but that's what proofreader does these days. An editor is really like,
00:05:15
Speaker
doing like, A, they they are diving in and getting stuck into the book, but they're also doing the all the project management and getting everything like getting everything in place and getting everything ready and stuff. But either way, you have an idea of what that is going to be. so the and that's the And obviously, publishing is, you'll have had people on this podcast tell you this before, but you know people because people don't know that ah you know it takes a village and it takes 25 different departments to make a book exist, you only ever think there's publishing is just full of editors, when in reality, it's full of you know, a broad ecosystem of different talents and brains.
00:05:47
Speaker
Um, yes and if you, yeah. And then literary agents were just, you know, one, one
The Competitive World of Publishing
00:05:51
Speaker
small part of it. and i would argue sometimes we do more of the editing side of stuff and what people imagine editors do than the actual editors do yes in my mind. and thats true yeah especiallyly It feels like now more than ever, literary agents have have over the past, like 10 years or so done more and more and more editing.
00:06:09
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Leading up to submitting to editors and things like that, which you would imagine means that, the yeah, the editors probably have, I would imagine, I don't know as much, but I would imagine editors, that role has become more and more project management than it used to be. yes Oh, 100%. I mean, they still do a lot editing, and I still do that, but I think there's a book right now, if they are if you send a book in and it's miles away from the potential of what an and like of what it of what it could be, an editor will just be like, it dope I don't have the time to get it here. So I always think of it as percentages.
00:06:45
Speaker
And I try and sign people whose book is somewhere in the range of between 60 and 70, 80% ready for submission. Obviously, more than that great. But that's kind of the window. And then I go in and try and do everything I can to get it up to 90%. Because can't get it to 100% Because that's... right And also, that's you need it it needs to be a little rough around the edges so editors know what they have some wiggle room to take it in the direction they need to take it. But... And there's other factors into it. Like, so if it's ah if it's an author you know has, like, got bags of talent and an amazing profile and can really, like...
00:07:21
Speaker
um an editor is going to know how to do it. Again, it's going to get, we're going to see the full spectrum opportunity or it's in them like a very, very trendy, like on brand, like on market trend space. Then yeah, they'll probably take us on a bit rougher.
00:07:36
Speaker
But if it's not that, then then you have to be like, if an editor is just like, I i know how I would do this, but I don't have the time, and then that's just not going to get it sold. So you really have to like go in and get it stuck, get stuck in these days and get it as clean as possible. Yeah.
00:07:49
Speaker
like yeah yeah and you've been doing this you've been ah an agent for a while does it does it feel like the standard has gotten higher over the years of god is it faith um it's um 50 50 like i think there are factors in now that publishers are allowing like I think, yeah, in lots of ways, it's ah it's a lot harder. And I think if you're working, it's a lot more competitive. It's a lot more competitive than it used to
Balancing Trends and Quality in Manuscripts
00:08:21
Speaker
be. I think just in my, what, six and a half years of agenting, that it's a lot more competitive to um get these places and things. But then also publishers, sometimes in some in some areas, they are just looking for things with like proven track record or with like, like,
00:08:39
Speaker
Yeah, it's... So I don't know if quality is the biggest like point of difference anymore. like It's not like it's really got to be like, does this work exactly in a way that I can get sales marketing and the you know the powers, the decision-making people, I can get there get them on side. like So even if it's the best best written book um like you've ah yeah I've ever worked on, and some of there's like some some of the brilliant books that I'm still looking for partners with so looking for publishing partners to with, are just so fantastically written and so ambitious and so cool and so like crafted but because they aren't particularly trend like they're not particularly on trend like it has been a more of a challenge than i thought it used to be whereas there are books you know that i'm like turning down um because i'm just like yeah i just don't necessarily see i'm not like connecting with the you know the ability of this this author that's getting like you know 10 or 11 um offers of rep and going on to make a fortune you know it's just like um so yeah because but in those books that are very very like very very in the in the zeitgeist on the trend moment so it's a kind of quality isn't the be all and end all anymore as well as much as it i wish it was
00:09:52
Speaker
Yes, there's a sort of, there's an ah there's ah an element of commercialism. There he's kind commercialism we Quality and commercialism aren't necessarily ah mutually exclusive, but they can also work separately. And yeah high quality does not mean very commercial.
00:10:13
Speaker
No, exactly. Commercial does not mean high quality. No, exactly. And um yeah and i don't think and i snap and and also, yeah, we've got to be careful that when we say commercial, we don't mean like commercial, like as the kind of brand category, like commercial fiction, you know, and more of commercial space or something compared to how much we think we can sell it. you know we have we are to We have a word that we're using for two things at the same time. like which is really annoying because im like I've got great commercial fiction writers who are brilliant and they are so talented. They're so cool. And they're, you know, they're fantastic at writing amazing and cool, interesting books and all that stuff. um And they're still writing in a very commercial space, but then separately, that's not the same as commercial as in we'll sell a lot of copies of this.
Social Media's Influence on Publishing
00:10:53
Speaker
This is a good idea. You know? Yeah. yeah anyway yeah Anyway, sorry. just And obviously adjacent to this discussion is,
00:11:00
Speaker
um tiktok social media in general of course and like this is the this is the huge thing that's made a big shift i've spoken to a few agents recently um i had kira finan on actually recently and i had her on in the wake of speaking to um one of her authors who she had reached out to on i think it was tiktok um That is seems to be, it used to be something that you rarely heard of where an agent, agents were seeking out um fiction authors online and kind of reaching out to them very more much more common in nonfiction. But for fiction, it seems to be a growing thing. Is that something that you've started to look into like actively searching on social channels?
00:11:46
Speaker
I don't know. I don't really... i don't ah don't do a ton of it. I don't do a ton of it. like um For me, like i have I have worked with people who have had self-pub success before. i've recently I've got a couple of people who have done like really, really well in the self-pub space that I'm working with and things. But I think for those in those cases, like like I really got the books and I really went... like And they kind of they kind of came to me more than I went looking for them. But right I think...
00:12:16
Speaker
I think it really depends how much you're kind of like hunting specific trends. like i I'm kind of more interested really in kind of like a finding books that are going to work even if the trends have kind of moved on because we're doing like books that... when When you're working for a trend and the trend is now, realis if if the the thing is hot right now, publishing is... And you work with somebody now, unless they're crashing it through, like they're not going to publish it for 18 months. you know, like, yeah and is the trend that is still going to be there and things, so like, there are books, and there's like newer trends that are coming through are kind of fine in that space, and we're still working out with public but how publishing is going to react to them and how they're going to do them, so i'm thinking like um Lit RPG, for example. Like, oh yeah that's kind of doing huge numbers in the last year in the self-pub space. And now publishing is waking up and having a go, but going find out how how good publishing is actually like making that into a ah viable, like, traditional market or whether it's still just, like, is it going to just be Matt Dineman and various other people who are, you know, doing great stuff, but, like, is publishing going to be able to do it So, yeah, so as far as, like, hunting down...
Discovering and Managing Authors
00:13:28
Speaker
i don't know, I think i I would go looking for gaps if I had gaps, but um it's not something I've done a lot of. I'm quite i'm very happy with the kind of the list i built kind of through word, through kind of was my own submissions, but also through kind of like, um like nepotism isn't the word, but like I meet authors who are great and they are, then they're they're all in great writing communities and they all know each other and they're like, and they'll come to me and they'll be like, John, like, I'm like,
00:13:55
Speaker
I'm really excited. i'm I'm really happy to be working with you that we're having a really good time, by the way, like, uh, can I introduce you to my friend who's a really good writer? And I'll be like, cool. Well, the fact that they've already built some kind of community is a, is a massive plus to me. Like, I'm not saying you need it to get my attention, but you know, I like, it is helpful to know that you're already in like engaged in the scene. You're already learning, you're already doing what you can to be kind of tuned into the publishing industry. So,
00:14:19
Speaker
um So yeah, I've met some great authors through that. And yeah, I've got strict great people through my slush power that just jumped out at me and have gone, this is a really fun and cool idea. I think this is work. So yeah, I try. i'm not...
00:14:31
Speaker
wildly like... i know this is probably bad changing ting, I don't care. like I know what I like. i don't know what like but like and I've said this before. I want to be working with brilliant authors that are going to be brilliant that would have been brilliant 10 years ago, been brilliant now, like a brilliant 10 years in the future. So yeah, want...
00:14:50
Speaker
so yeah i want like I'm proud of everything on my list and I try not to be too trend hunting, really. It's not really like a... Yeah. So i know yeah, so yes that's a long answer, but a kind rambling one. But yeah. We we appreciate the the the honesty in that. yeah and And I do hear it a lot is because you want to be future proof. You don't just want to be successful in the current trend, which nowadays could last six months. It could last a year. You know, yeah you never know. Exactly.
00:15:22
Speaker
i'm Speaking of your list, I saw on the BLM website, you have 27 authors listed. I guess that's correct and up to date. um So I think I've got about another 10 who are all debuts.
00:15:37
Speaker
So yeah, I think overall is about mid, late 30s, somewhere that thing. got a specific number in front of me. I could get it out. I want to crash my computer. So yeah, there's authors there. We don't put unsolved debuts on the website straight away. We kind of let them just while we're getting them ready because you don't know how long a debut is going ready to go on with submission things. I'd rather be in control of when those pitches are going out and who's finding out about those books rather than being too...
00:16:09
Speaker
like rather than you know making like putting something else to it. I've got some books take longer to get ready and some like authors. um And sometimes like you can be like, um or you need to be at the right tower in the market to send something out because there are books. like If you know that a book is going to need um like it is would there's a chance it would get lost in a very, very busy period because it is a bit more thoughtful, a bit more of a thoughtful pop proposition. like You don't want to send it out in like September or October because it's like that's the busiest time of year. um So yeah, I try and be like,
00:16:43
Speaker
Yeah, you're trying to be in control of like when things happen as much as you can for your in your own in your author's best interests. um So yeah, I don't put everyone on the website straight away is the short that's interesting.
00:16:55
Speaker
Yeah, and I guess that makes sense too yeah for as reasons as mentioned. Yeah. So, I mean, on from what that previous chat we we were just having, how you're not really actively kind of pursuing authors, you do have what would be a pretty, pretty so like foolish list. You know, you're at 30 something authors. Obviously you're always going to be adding more because it's ebbs and flows with, with the the way you work with author will change. There'll be times when you're doing more, there's tons when you're doing less.
00:17:23
Speaker
um Does it get, when your list does become that big, does it become harder and harder to sign new authors because you're obviously very aware of how you're splitting your time?
00:17:35
Speaker
um Well, it's kind of, ah kind of really see it that I've got, it's ah actually, I don't really, i I haven't really had that much, but that much trouble. I am pickier, like I am pickier, but really i kind of think of it about like, if it's more how many debuts I can have each year.
00:17:55
Speaker
Right, okay. Because taking new... Debuts are obviously the most work um because they and they don't have ah any kind of publishing track for them. They don't have any existing relationships. They don't have like but books rolling. So taking putting them together, I try and limit myself to like less than five debuts a year.
00:18:12
Speaker
um okay give or take depending on how like and that's getting people um because if you're under contract then realistically your agent the amount of work you have that your agent has to don do for you is wildly reduced really I'm supervising I'm looking for new like opportunities and stuff but that's still like the actual main body of the work is already done you know that's in the end I'm just my job is just to make sure publishers are doing the job right you know and so as far as like actually getting like new authors out on submission that's the kind of thing i try not to overstock myself with because i need to make sure that each author gets each one of my debut authors gets the attention they need and the kind of like process like and yeah dedication to kind of finding their like first home and things so as far as like and the joys of like our kind of uh area of the market is that you know some if you're lucky you can get like um
00:19:01
Speaker
you can you know have long publishing contracts you know and they can be tied up for a couple of years, quite up two or three, four years, and if it's gone well, they might just keep going. So you know there's authors, like, so of my, like what, 30-odd authors, I'd say, well, yeah, I'd say over 20 of them are under contract and quietly, like still I still have to you know give them attention to make sure they're happy, make sure they like their cover, make sure that like we're getting it' if it's if there's rights to be sold, the rights are getting like dispersed in various other pieces. But it's but they aren't you know it's not a ton of work to do.
00:19:31
Speaker
like It's not a ton of time effort of um time spent to keep it keep them happy and keep them and yeah be sure I'm you know adding the value I need to be adding. um So yeah, it's more of the debuts. I try and be picky about how many I bring in each year and keep moving forward.
00:19:46
Speaker
Because also, yeah, not everyone sells first time, and that's perfectly normal. um And you've got to go, and yeah, so if you have to get ready, if you have to come up with a second book and like give them time to draft and get them supported and you know take them through it. And also, you don't read i'm I'm very bad at giving up.
00:20:01
Speaker
like So if a but editor what if an author's happy and wants to keep step stay on sub and keep trying, then I'll keep trying. I've got books... like My record, I think, is about two years to get a book on submission to get a book away. and And when it did get away, it got a really good deal. And it was a really good publishing experience. So five there's real...
00:20:20
Speaker
you know There's no point just saying, like oh, I haven't sold it in six months. It's over. you know like um If I can still have it and I still have it ready, I can still create those opportunities. and you know the mar As we said, those trends change, the market moves. Things that ah like I was too early for last time still might work later. Not not having tons of books out to sell at one time is the kind of thing to avoid, really, more than it is like how many authors you can sign and that kind
Genres and Preferences in Representation
00:20:48
Speaker
of thing.
00:20:48
Speaker
Okay, right. And I would imagine also when you're working with a debut author that they're not going to have as much experience with the industry. So they're going to need a bit more um like guidance in terms of like what to expect and and how things are than um you recently signed a good friend of mine, Naomi Gibson. Yes. And you know she she's been, she has multiple books out. she's She knows how the industry works. So she wouldn't be like a debut author for you. She would be, you know, she's she's kind of knows how how how the game is played.
00:21:18
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. She's, yeah. um And yeah, you want to kind of, you want to also take the strain off the publisher a little bit with a debut because yeah, there's, the more the debut is coming to you and asking questions, the more the the publisher can get on with like get doing the publishing right, you know? Okay, yeah. And you want to kind of, and then they'll be like, wow, that was a really like, enjoy, the more, and then they'll enjoy the experience more and then they'll be bit more enthusiastic to like keep working with them and things. But yeah, Naomi, obviously, and various other authors I have who are kind of like already kind of established careers, you know, they,
00:21:47
Speaker
yeah Yeah, they're very happy just to keep rolling and like make sure they're doing everything right and things are, you know, flowing. Yeah. Okay. Let's talk about the list itself then. Sure. I'm thinking you're you're open to submissions.
00:22:01
Speaker
Yes, always. I don't, I never close. Always open. Always open. What ah genres and age groups do you represent and in a broad sense?
00:22:12
Speaker
Sure. So i do YA, new adult and adult. And my kind of rule of thumb is like, I've got the very broad church of like speculative fiction. um So anything in the sci-fi, fantasy, horror space.
00:22:28
Speaker
And... and ah it And also I've been branching out into kind of more like crossover action adventure thriller that are kind of still in a very kind of plot plot forward, fun, escapist kind of way. Like that's my general bread and butter is like escapist books that are really, really fun. That's what I love working on. That's what I'm good at editing and stuff. Like I am i have authors who are writing in a more literary space.
00:22:55
Speaker
But overall, like my like i still love working with them and stuff, but they all still write books that have like a fair amount of plot. So yeah, so that's the kind of yeah and then and that's that space has been... like mice I'm vaguely leaning with a slightly more masculine edge, but maybe mostly not to annoy Anne and my colleagues who are already brilliant in the kind of more psych thriller and kind of... um women's fiction-edged thriller space. um So I'm kind of leaning towards the kind of heists and Jack Reacher and spies and that kind of yeah lean.
00:23:32
Speaker
But we're kind of... I'm still learning that. That's been a project this year to kind of like build and work out what my tastes are and build those connections. So ask me in two years what I'm doing in that space. But otherwise, if it's got dragons and lasers and spaceships... like And then my my colleague Julie does... um the more kind of gothic um horror and the more like upmarket dark academia-y kind of, um she likes beautiful writing as a kind of forefront thing. Whereas I'm just like, if the writing is brilliant, that's a bonus. But if your plot is a amazing, then I'm going to have a great time, you know? Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
00:24:06
Speaker
Okay. So speaking of kind of relatively new learning about new things, i mean, they're not that new now, but New adult crossover, you mentioned both of those. yeah Those are like relatively new categories.
00:24:18
Speaker
ah And i've I've asked a few people how to define them and the definition always slightly different. So are you defining new adult? New adult. um So new adult, I'm saying it's kind of the sense, the kind of plot forward character focused, like slightly more kind of like...
00:24:42
Speaker
um but So it's the things that YA does really well, which is, yeah, plot forward, um into like fun protagonist, twisty kind of escapist fiction, but in a kind of, for that kind of twenty s to 30s market and like in that kind of like universe. So that's in the, that's, yeah. and And if you're not, but bor broadly,
00:25:04
Speaker
why a why a stylings for people with but characters of 18 to 30 um and sex and drugs and violence are allowed really that like yeah it can happen that's a very layman's version of what new adult is yeah okay and then what is different about that and crossover oh god so crossover there's two types of crossover really there's the crossover which is the kind of um Which is very similar to... there's the the aid When you say crossover is in an age category, there's category, there's that crop crossover of like... Which is, again, I think is probably very similar to what how I just defined YA. Defined new adult, even. But then there's also genre crossover. So it's like...
00:25:49
Speaker
it's like speculative edged fiction or like fiction, like horror with a more kind of book clubby styling type thing. So it's kind of got that like, so there's genre crossover where it's like two, it's, it's elements of one.
00:26:04
Speaker
It's, it's, it's speculative friction that could be read by a general reader. um is the kind of genre crossover-y thing. Oh yeah, gotcha. Which is kind of how I, and honestly, I'm in editor sortial um conversations with editors sometimes, and they're talking about one, and then suddenly that I realized they they were talking about the other one, and i was just like, okay, never mind, it's fine, it's fine. Half of the agenting is making it sound like you know what you're talking about. Yes, okay, great.
00:26:31
Speaker
We're all only human. That's fine. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. um Okay. Then you covered a lot that, which is great in terms of the broad description of what you represent. Sometimes it's useful just to know, are there any genres or sub genres or age groups that you absolutely do not represent? Is it just not right for you?
00:26:49
Speaker
Well, yeah. Well, yeah, i don't do middle grade or anything younger than that. Just straight up. I've got great colleagues who do middle grade. I
Building Reputation in Publishing
00:26:55
Speaker
don't get it. um And then, um Well, no, they're they're great authors. i just ah You do have to have a different skill set to be able to edit a book. There's definitely an edge for that thing. um And then I don't do nonfiction, obviously. And again, that's another simplistic one. I do the odd nonfiction project if I really think I'm the best person for it. But it's when you're when it's an area you don't work in, like the whole of...
00:27:22
Speaker
I'm giving you so many extra pieces of information to these questions. Apologies for this. But the when you when you start new when you start out as an agent, like you' the big thing you're bri building is your reputation and your like brand and your like um people on people's understanding and the value of your taste.
00:27:42
Speaker
So when I started out in SFF, There were books I didn't sell then that i would be able to sell now because back then my like cultural cachet amongst the editors I worked with I was trying to sell to wasn't very high because they'd never heard of me or they hadn't really worked with me yet. And it took like you know five years of doing good publishing and getting great books and you know and finding books that went on to be successes and getting those like um you know signifying moments that say, oh, John knows what he's doing. We should pay a bit more attention to John each time. The way that like you know the the world stops when certain agents send their books out and stuff. I'm not at that level yet, but you know I'm building that way. And every time you move into a new genre where you don't have a relationship with those editors yet, then you're starting from scratch.
00:28:27
Speaker
So this whole thing with this, like doing this kind of more... adventure-led, like, commercial fiction. You know, I'm meeting lot of editors this year who don't know me from Adam. So, you know, they're working. So I'm starting from scratch with those. So as far as finding genres like nonfiction where I don't do that much publishing or middle grade or something, I'd be starting again with those people. And that's just, you know, that's a lot that's a lot of work.
00:28:51
Speaker
um Yeah, so then what I'm working on now is where I've like built ah where i've built kind of cultural... appreciation cultural appreciation are you on about people think i know what i'm doing yes in those areas so i stay kind of in there um so yeah as far as um i haven't found like satire comedy a horror that satire like sff that works yet okay um like terry pratchett's like my favorite one of my favorite authors of all time but i still have never found really anyone who's doing it like doing he was one of one though
00:29:27
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. He was one of one. He was one of one. and But I get a lot in my submissions box, and I'm just like, i don't know, sadly, I just haven't found... And also, it's a really tough area of the market. Like, you can't actually... ah I think I've said this on a podcast before, so i apologies if repeating myself. It's like, you don't... Even add even um authors who are incredibly successful for their comedy are never actually so pitched as funny.
00:29:51
Speaker
you know yeah The comedy is like a secret thing that they hide underneath ever like ah underneath the kind of like epic stylings and stuff like that, all the kind of all the kind of things that's a bit safer to publish, to pitch it as because comedy is just... do Anyway, so yeah, don't really do much satire. um Yeah, and I'm kind of finding...
00:30:08
Speaker
like Yeah, I'm not good with religious stuff. I just specifically like anything too Anglo-Christian. Like Good Omens for me was the perfect way of writing about um like gods and demons and angels and stuff. And then since then, I've never really...
00:30:25
Speaker
Yeah, i don't know call it repressed Catholic guilt or something, but I just can't be asked.
The Challenges of Writing
00:30:30
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. Sorry, don't know if that's too specific. haven't read Rebecca Kwong's new book? yes. i'll do I mean, are you going to ask me to say on the record whether I've read Babel or not? Or the new one? No, no, I'm not saying, I'm not touching that. Like, absolutely not. Of course I've read it. I thought it was brilliant. like yeah I haven't time to read books that long. Yeah.
00:30:52
Speaker
absolutely not okay great i think that is pretty pretty encompassing for for for what you represent um and and then obviously what what you don't uh last question before we before i snow you in oh yes right always love to ask agents you you touched on it before At the right the beginning episode, you said you thought at one point, maybe you'd want to be a writer.
00:31:17
Speaker
Now that you've been around the industry for a while, do you think that writing might ever come back? Do you think you'll ever maybe publish something yourself? Oh, gosh, I don't know. It's hard.
00:31:29
Speaker
Like i had I had a rainy day on a holiday when I was like, oh, i know I know what I'll do. I'll see if I've got an idea in me. So just plot play around with some ideas. And I spent the best part of the day developing like an idea.
00:31:44
Speaker
um And I was sitting there being like, oh, there's something here. There's something there. And I went to sleep and I woke up and I looked at it the next morning and i was like, Jesus Christ, no. This is God awful. But I think it's that it's the, It's the you know the the crucifix of the critic. you know like You spend all your time judging... That was good. love You can have that. can You spend all your time judging everybody else's stuff and like coming in and analyzing everything. I get, what, 20 to 30 submissions a week, if not more.
00:32:13
Speaker
um And I spend all of that looking looking at it and making a snap-second decision of whether I think there's any any point in it And majority of the time it's no. Like, yeah so the idea of coming up with an idea that can survive my own rigorous, judgmental criticism, like it's it's really challenging. you have to have um You have to have so much faith in your belief and your ideas to become a writer and believe that, you know, the the time is worth spending to write. Because I have the the greatest respect for anyone who finishes a book, regardless of whether it's any good, regardless of whether there's any market for it whatsoever. The fact is you sat down and you wrote down 90,000 plus or whatever, how many words, and at no point did you walk away and go, i um this isn't good enough, I shouldn't be doing this, this is rubbish. you know That strength of will is so is what is missing for so many people who are like, I could write a book one day, I've got a great idea for a book. It's like, yes, but can you sit down and write the thing? but That is the thing. So yeah, anyone... Yeah, and there's all these people out there like... um
00:33:16
Speaker
you know Anyone who criticizes people, it's a rubbish book. It's like, sod off. If you haven't done it yourself, don't sit there and... like you know like It's like running a marathon. you know like you know People might say it's boring or whatever, but like they still bloody did it. yeah you know yeah' that's That's a really impressive thing. so yeah As far as...
00:33:35
Speaker
Do I have my own strength of will to sit down and write my own contributions, knowing how many brilliant authors there are out there that I love who have done something incredible and me being, you know, like, the you know, the garage band to their, you know, queen. you know Yeah.
Baker's Literary Insights and Conclusion
00:33:52
Speaker
I think I'll happily, I'll probably say for now or no for now. so now no Don't quote me on that for when my you know epic bestseller work hits the market in 25 years. Never say that about them.
00:34:03
Speaker
But right now, it's no time soon. Absolutely not. Plus, you know all the authors I owe edits to will skim me alive if I've been secretly writing a book instead of doing the edits that I'm rightfully so.
00:34:15
Speaker
I'm rightfully so. Uh, I like that answer. Um, so then, ah we're at the point where I ask you if John, you were snowed in at a cozy woodland cabin in the middle of nowhere, what book do you hope to have with you?
00:34:30
Speaker
Oh gosh. That's so difficult to mean. Um, I've, I, while I was talking and listening to myself, rabbit on, I was trying to think what, and I changed my mind on a thousand answers.
00:34:41
Speaker
Um, Oh, I don't know. Okay.
00:34:51
Speaker
ah No, I... What does your gut tell you? Oh, God, they've got so many options. I'm firing through and I'm honestly flicking through my Kindle right now to see what see what comes out and see if something jumps out at me.
00:35:07
Speaker
I think I'd want something that I could read like multiple times and still get something different each time, or like really like get more into it and learn more. I'd also want it to be bloody long.
00:35:21
Speaker
I want something epic. um Oh, I don't know. If you can, if you can bind it into one book, you can take it. I say that because a few people have proved to me that you can buy a fully bound Lord of the Rings trilogy. Oh, right. Okay. All right. Well, in that case, and it's only because I've just spent in the last um like two days very invested in this man's world. So um i'm I'm going to take, and that's a trick question, because if bind it, ah you can't bind it. No, it's too big it because it's like 10, 20, it's millions of words.
00:36:01
Speaker
No, we can't have that. No, no. Stormlight would be great. You definitely can't blame that. No. don't know how he printed those. No, ah actually because obviously a bloke we announced as as of recording, a guy that we announced yesterday, is now're we're now working together, Ryan Carhill, his epic fantasy series. His last one is 450,000 words long or something. and i haven't And I'm still working through the series, having a great time.
00:36:25
Speaker
So that would be good. Okay, um probably it's... i say i'm gonna I'm so annoyed at myself because I always quote this book and I keep telling myself I need to pick some like other things. But Tamsyn Muir, like, Harrow the Ninth, like, gi land or like...
00:36:46
Speaker
That series is so good and it's so clever and it's so brilliant and delicious and chaotic and crazy. um like And oddly enough, the sequel for me is actually like my fake one of my favorite books. and e The first one is brilliant, but the sequel is just so good.
00:37:03
Speaker
um And the way that you can read that book, because I read it first and now I listened to it again on an audio book to really kind of connect it. really feel how she's like a master of messing things, messy i like of like messing with your reader and messing with the audience perspective and like kind of yeah revealing what the book is actually about like 90% of the way through. um And I'm kind of just, oh God, this is what you were doing? Oh, I love it. but Yeah, so maybe I'd read that again and see. um
00:37:35
Speaker
Or maybe I'll just take something like... and i good I've got the um i've i've got the rad Raven Scholar on my um Kindle, and I haven't read it yet, and it's massive, and it's supposed to be brilliant, and I've heard so many wonderful things about it. And I'm big fan of the people who worked on it. So maybe I'll take that and read that instead.
00:37:55
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, those are great choices. Yeah. It could be something I haven't read before. And then I would have a fresh take, you know, don't you wish you could go back and delete books from your memory so you can read them all over again? God. Yes. Books, films, games. there's There's a whole library of things I wish I could relive.
00:38:12
Speaker
Oh, right. And yous don't you can never get that first, like, it's like hearing a song for the first time or like, like just off. There's something, there's just that moment when you're like, wow, that's changed me forever. I'm never going to be able to be the person who hasn't read that book before.
00:38:26
Speaker
And then you go back and you're like, oh, I want to go back to that world. Anyway. Well, speaking of, yes this is funny because you mentioned Gideon the Ninth. I literally have a note on my my on my desktop background to be like Gideon the Ninth ad to to be read list.
00:38:42
Speaker
Oh, yes. it. Do it right now. I'm so glad didn't spoil anything in there, I think. don't think did. So i be able to read that for the first time. Oh, they're so good. They're so good. You'll love it. You'll love it. yeah And then, like, Tamzimura is a master of being, like...
00:38:57
Speaker
um just ah audience i don't care what my readership wants they're going get this and they're going to enjoy it like this is we're going to we did one thing and then i know you want the same again but you're not getting the same again you're getting something else and going to like that even more and it's just like yeah i love that kind of commitment to like knowing exactly confidence in knowing exactly what you need to be doing what you need to be writing you know that's the yeah yeah that's the that's the dream That's confidence in your in in your own writing there. It's being able to write something totally different. Exactly. um
00:39:31
Speaker
So we past halfway, but next up, we are going to chat a little bit about John's involvement with the Association of Authors Agents. And then we're going to get into the weeds a bit with some querying and cover letter chat. That will all be available on Patreon at patreon.com forward slash right and wrong, along with all the other extended episodes. Yeah.
00:39:52
Speaker
Lots of people I work with don't have like crazy, insane links to their books and stuff. But if you do have it, make it loud and make it visible, you know? Okay. yeah Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's good advice.
00:40:03
Speaker
Yes. I think there's lots of good advice in that. And I really liked what you said earlier about reading a cover letter you are looking for any excuse to just get straight into the to get to so excited that you're like oh that's i can save that for later i want to get into the chapter straight away that's yeah i think that that's something i'd not heard before and it's really good virus for people just talking on board um that brings us to the end of the episode thank you so much john for coming on and telling us all about your kind of career in publishing and everything i get to as well as how submissions and queries are working at blm and all that stuff it's been really really informative and interesting chatting with you
00:40:37
Speaker
Oh, thanks. Thanks so much, Jamie. I've had a lot of fun. Now, I promise my last plug, only because when we were recording it as of the 11th of November, don't know if you were tell people on dates, Stuart Hodgson's Project Hadaman came out today. it's an epic space opera that kind of based with a kind of Indian mythology retelling kind of mixed into It's bloody awesome. I was out with AgriRobot today, and I would begrudge myself if I didn't give it a little push. a little push so go out and read it it's great anyway um thanks thanks so much jamie i have yeah sorry for being all over the place i know my my answers are all that's great there's lots of bonus content in there yeah exactly exactly we got the it was terry pratchett style all the asterisks at the bottom oh god asterisks and footnotes everywhere everywhere Oh yeah.
00:41:26
Speaker
For anyone listening, if you want to keep up with what John is doing, you can find him on Instagram at aged baker books. Uh, and if you want to submit to John or any of any of the team over at Bella Lomax Morton, you can go over to the the website, bellomaxmorton.com, find the submission page. All the guidelines are there. You'll know exactly what to do.
00:41:44
Speaker
Um, And yeah, good luck with your queries. To support this podcast, like, follow and subscribe. Join the Patreon for ad-free extended episodes and check out my other podcast, The Chosen Ones and Other Tropes with one of John's clients, Naomi Gibson. um Thanks to you and John. Thanks to everyone listening. we will catch you in the next episode.
00:42:00
Speaker
Shout out time. One of my amazing patrons, Lee Foxton, is querying their debut novel. It's a family drama, commercial fiction along the lines of Jojo Moyes and David Nichols. Fingers crossed. I am rooting for you. Good luck.