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270 Elle McNicoll | Children's & Adult Romance Author
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Carnegie nominated children's author, Elle McNicoll is with us this week to chat about her debut adult romance novel, her journey and experiences in publishing and her book writing process.
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Transcript
Introduction to Writing & Guest
00:00:00
Speaker
Ooh, a spicy question. love it. Because the writing is sort of everything, right? Like you can fix plot holes, but if the writer isn't there. So some readers love that and some readers are like, but I wanted more of this. So it's kind of, it's kind of a gamble.
00:00:14
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to the Right and Wrong podcast. On today's episode, I am joined by bestselling novelist and screenwriter. She has been nominated five times by Carnegie for her for her children's books and she is also about to release her adult romance debut.
00:00:30
Speaker
It's Elle McNichol. Hello. ah Hi, thanks for having me. Thanks a lot for coming on.
Elle McNichol's New Novel: 'Unapologetic Love Story'
00:00:36
Speaker
um Let's hit the ground running, jumping straight in with the new book, Unapologetic Love Story, out April 2nd.
00:00:44
Speaker
Tell us a little bit about it. Yeah, it's I mean, the title, I hope, can suggest a little bit about about the book. but um But it's it's a London based romance. And it's about two 30 year olds, I would say. And the first is Raina Lewis, who is is a podcaster like you.
00:01:06
Speaker
And um but her podcast is about disability and being a woman who's autistic and neurodiversity and trying to humanise it and normalise it and talk about love and loss and fashion and and sex and work. And her star is kind of on the rise.
00:01:22
Speaker
She has a very, very ah loving fan base, but the upper echelons of London aren't aren't so keen on on people who are a bit different so she's still trying to make her way um in London and one day at a very fancy party in the Victoria and Albert Museum which is not inspired by the HarperCollins summer party in any way she meets she meets um she meets Tom Branamere who is a Scottish working class journalist who has made a living ah bringing down scammers, ah bringing down people who lie to their audiences for money. He's very jaded and very cynical. He does a very good thing. He's kind of like the Robin Hood of print media, but he's very, um he's tough about it He's been branded the king of cancel culture by a very sort of Piers Morgan type
Themes of Neurodiversity & Romance
00:02:12
Speaker
editor. And he's sort of feared by everybody. And his agent says, I think you have to write about something a bit a bit nicer for once. You have to write something light and fun and fluffy. And so he he scans the room and decides to pick to pick someone else.
00:02:28
Speaker
Someone a bit different. And of course, like all journalists, he promises that he will keep his feelings out of the story, which inevitably doesn't happen. But things go wrong. There's a dinner party that goes horribly wrong. There's a birthday party that goes very right. There's um lots of London kind of staples. The London Marathon is a big part of it. The disabled runners, especially at London Marathon. And it's a book about being neurodivergent in the 21st century and and not having it be sad and tragic. And yeah um unlike almost, oh I mean, literally unlike almost every disability love story that I saw growing up, the characters are are both alive by the end. and So that that's but that's um where the title, I feel, is also just being a little bit cheeky, just being like, this is a love story that happens to have a neurodivergent character but uh nobody dies it's unapologetically happy by the end okay amazing yeah i mean it sounds like a lot of fun it sounds like you've got all of the pieces in there to create uh a wacky time but like you said fun time happily ever after everyone survives
00:03:37
Speaker
there is There is depth. like it does it There is depth as well. It's not always fun to put like the deep parts in the elevator pitch, but yeah but but the point is that it's not a it's not a sort of depressed it doesn't make disability look like this depressing, heavy subject.
Transitioning from YA to Adult Romance
00:03:52
Speaker
and It's still very human and and hopefully relatable um to readers. I've been so blown away by what readers have said so far. So yeah, it's got depth, but it is a fun time as well.
00:04:03
Speaker
Amazing. Amazing. Well, it sounds absolutely fantastic. I'm sure once everyone can get their hands on it, they will fall in love with it. Like, like the people who who've already read it, you were saying, um, but you, so you've done romance before YA. Yeah.
00:04:17
Speaker
yeah but This is, this is for adults. This is absolutely not, not to go in the school library, I would say. Although I've been having been to a lot of senior school libraries, sometimes, you know, they've got Sarah J Maas on the shelves and I clock it and I think, oh, OK, this is different to when I was at school. But um ah but this one I wouldn't I wouldn't really recommend putting in the in in in the library at school. But ah just because it's got some um some deeply romantic scenes, I'll say. it's deeply romantic yes But i'm realistically romantic. And it's yeah, I have written YA romances before. This one is is definitely in the adult um realm, I would say.
00:05:01
Speaker
Yeah, okay. so i mean <unk>m I'm still talking like a YA author, I'm still acting like it's, but um but it's actually, yeah, it's been really fun actually to write without having to worry about our teenagers going to, um I don't know, am I a bad influence on the readers? yeah But it's nice actually, it's been freeing.
00:05:23
Speaker
Okay. what what What was it that made you want to, because previously everything you've written has been middle grade or YA, children's stuff. what's what What kind of made you want to send a branch out into into adult
Media Influence & Authentic Representation
00:05:33
Speaker
fiction? Well, I started writing it in in lockdown, and which was just when my my career was starting. My first book came out in 2020 and I was doing a lot of press for that. So I was getting asked about my disability a lot and I was which was fine, that's the job. And so I was just writing this this for fun on the side, just to channel like some of those questions, because some of them can get quite absurd. And then a few years go by, and I went back to it when we started promoting. my One of my books was adapted for television, and um so we had to do a lot of press for that. And TV press is is a level of...
00:06:06
Speaker
crazy that book press never reaches and you'll be doing sort of junket interviews with America where you do about 50 interviews back to back in a day on Zoom. And by the sort of fiftieth interview, the questions are getting really strange. And, you know, they're asking like, they're saying like, oh, I would mention just conversationally, I would mention my fiance or something and they would, their eyes would widen and they would look at me and go, oh my God, like you, you don't like live alone in a, in a, in a cave. Like you have people in your life. And I i said, yes. And then one of them very, um,
00:06:43
Speaker
boldly leaned into the there the zoom mic i guess and went oh do you have sex and i remember going um not not right now margaret but like last night guess but i was just like why are you asking this like why are you asking a very like a really dehumanizing question and then i went back to the manuscripts i thought i can't ever i like to put the crazy things that happened to me as an autistic person into my books. But I thought I can't put that in a middle grade and I can't put it, i can't really put it into YA because my YA is, I do try and write YA's that are for teenagers. and And so I thought I can't i can't discuss this in in a book because none of my kids, ah first of all, i can't write about sex in middle grade and none of the kids would would be in this position and in ah in a YA. So I thought it has to be an adult book.
00:07:33
Speaker
And so it it went into unapologetic because Raina gets asked all kinds of strange questions. i mean, everything she gets asked in the book is I've been asked at every comment that is written. and Yeah. it's So it's it's about just a very, it's quite a niche experience, but I just thought that's kind of interesting in a way. like why why are they so...
Elle's Passion for Romance & Writing Process
00:07:54
Speaker
why are they so curious and why are they so surprised that autistic people can have um the same experiences that neurotypical people have? And then when I thought about growing up neurodivergent as a young woman, I thought, well, I don't actually blame them because every time I saw anything about someone like me, whenever i was doing, you know, I was in the ICT lab at school and I was supposed to be researching the French Revolution and I would just go on to like The Guardian, um it would be...
00:08:23
Speaker
an article being like, oh, really wonderful, kind boy offers to take autistic girl to the prom and is applauded by a community. And I just thought, oh God, that's horrifying and patronizing. And then you would just see lots of other horrible articles. I mean, it was really bad. In the 2000s, it was really bad if you Googled autism, all the things that would come up.
00:08:43
Speaker
So it was really dehumanizing and it didn't make you feel glamorous. It didn't make you feel... uh the same as your peers so I do understand when they ask those kind of mad questions I'm like oh because you've you've consumed the same media as I have so you think it's you think it's very much one thing um but it was enough to spark um returning to the manuscript and working it working it out and I couldn't really leave it alone and And yeah, it was just a case of this can't go in in something for children. But I also love romance. I i love romance novels. They're my go-to genre I have since I was 13. So i i wanted to do it just as a writer as well. Sorry, that was a monologue.
00:09:23
Speaker
That was great. yeah no it's Yeah, there was a sort of passion within you to correct a narrative that you'd been told. Yeah, because it's ugly. It's it's an ugly assumption. so and i And yeah, it's it's also really ah bold. and And I quite like things that are bold, even if they are a bit rude. So it it was a fun kind of what if.
00:09:45
Speaker
So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But like you said, romance is like so an area that you you love the genre, you love it. Does that mean that you are thinking about maybe writing more at adult romance?
Publishing Differences: Adult vs Children's Books
00:09:58
Speaker
Yeah, i hope so. We'll see. I mean, it depends if I'm allowed to. We'll see how this goes. We'll see how this goes. I was definitely worried that because my my middle grade books, they do well. like i'm like I think I'm allowed to say that. they They do well. So I think some people...
00:10:14
Speaker
are very much uh they're very comfortable with an autistic woman writing middle grade books because there is also an idea of like oh you're quite childlike naturally like you're very into I've been asked a lot like are your middle grade books really good because you're in you have like a child brain and I I'm always like no I don't have a child brain I just have a working memory and so I yeah I I love middle grade and I'll never leave it but I I There are just so many things to say that you can't say in in children's books and and rightly so. And I wanted to say them. And I and i read i have been reading romance since I was 13. Romance fiction, I mean, saved my, literally saved my life as a teenager. It got me through so much difficulty being a young adult in Scotland. I don't know how many Scots are listening, but they'll know. If you're not living in the centre of Edinburgh or Glasgow, which are glamorous and fun, if you're living in one of the little villages as a teenager, it's
00:11:09
Speaker
really hard isn't there's nothing to do and you can't escape everyone that's known you since you were two months old it's really not glamorous and so it's hard to imagine life being anything other than a bit sort of black and white and romance fiction was my I I i was sort of losing my love of reading because of um school where you know they treat they treated books like vegetables that you have to eat yeah and i started picking up romance novels and charity shops with the the really audacious covers like if people remember those early like romance cover they were really they're all very sweet and very and beautiful beautiful in their own way but in the old days it was they were i mean they were gnarly and um but they were fascinating when they were just like a like a six-pack yeah the bodice rippers yeah it was like it was boobs pushed up to the chin was bicep you know really appealing to teenagers being like look at this like aren't you curious about whatever this is but then you'd read them and you would go okay right that cover is very audacious but this is actually a brilliantly crafted story there's amazing I mean especially the historical romances back in the day like they were really they were really deep and they were really beautifully written and beautifully crafted and so human and I just fell in love with them and I couldn't get through them fast enough and um
00:12:27
Speaker
And so i just thought this genre has honestly saved my mental health
Creative Process & Editorial Challenges
00:12:33
Speaker
and sanity. And then i had to i sort of i had to I would cut um covers from sort of, I guess, appropriate books and stick them over the bodice rippers so that I could read them in school. So I'd just be reading. oh yeah It would look like I was reading The Catcher and the Rye, but actually was like, I don't know, The Pirate and The What, with The Whatever. Yeah. And so it was just an escape. And I think that's what romance fiction is best at. It's best at kind of reaching through the pages of a very dull or a very chaotic or a very unhappy world sometimes and saying, and no matter how low this story gets, no matter what these characters go through, by the end, they're going to be all right. So I understand that the switch might look odd from the outside to some people, but for me and for people that that know me, I've always, I've just been an ad and absolute, um I've been devoted to this genre of remote for so long. And so it it just felt natural. but um'm
00:13:36
Speaker
But also every story I've written is a love story. It's just, this is the first one that's like also very um sexual. So it's like, but every book I've written is about relationships in some way. So yeah.
00:13:48
Speaker
Okay, yeah. Yeah, that's, I mean, yeah, we got, a feel like we got a bit of a biography of that, which is wonderful. That's what, that's what we're hearing about you. this is, can i just say this, this is like the first proper interview for the book. So I am bombarding you. So you can cut a lot of that if you like. Okay, great. but No, no, no. We're keeping everything. We're not cutting anything out of this. um So in terms of the publishing process, this what I'm kind of interested in here is obviously you you've released ah eight or nine children's YA books. nine. for kids, I've done six middle grades and two YA's.
00:14:25
Speaker
So yeah, eight. Okay. Okay, so eight um children's books. Now that you're at the end of your journey, kind of nearing the end of the journey with Unapologetic Love Story about to come out, were there any surprises in terms of the differences between um publishing an adult novel versus a children's one?
00:14:46
Speaker
um This is going to sound absolutely mad, but actually the difference is that for an add adult book, a lot of the editing process, they ask you to...
00:14:57
Speaker
I don't know what the the best way to explain this is. Not sanitize, but sort of, they want you to be less direct with children, which you think you'd think it'd be the other way around. You'd think that writing a children's book, there'd be ah there'd be a sort of editorial hand-wringing of, oh, please, can we be careful that we don't let kids think it's okay to, i don't know, run away or whatever.
00:15:18
Speaker
But with the adult book, actually, it was much more, there was much more anxiety from editorial about like, oh, but there's a scene where, um Tom and Reinhard in a seafood restaurant and they're eating lobster. And the editor put a note and said, oh, some people get very offended with lobster. i think we should change it to a different food.
00:15:37
Speaker
And I changed it to oysters, but I was like, aren't oysters like, I mean, it's in principle, it's the same thing, isn't it? But I just, I'd never, I'd never like... i was like, oh, because I'm from Scotland, we all eat lobster like, you know, crazy. So I just, but that was, it was so interesting. I was like, oh, are are adult readers more?
00:15:55
Speaker
But then I was like, no, the only reason, adult adult readers are just more likely to get in touch than like a nine-year-old. Yes. just It's just more, that's more like, but I was like, I promise, like if they're mad about the lobster, I i totally appreciate that. and i And I will take, I will take that. I will accept, you know, one star on Goodreads because I put lobster in the book.
00:16:13
Speaker
Yeah. so So that was interesting. I guess it's not crucial to the story either. No, it wasn't. And oysters are an aphrodisiac, so it worked out it worked out very well. But i was but if well people don't like oysters, I i do apologise. But that was interesting. and i But other than that, it's not entirely different. because each And I will say that that editor is brilliant and she's an absolute a star. I love her. But every editor is very different. So it actually feels to me less...
00:16:40
Speaker
to do with the age ah range of the novel and actually more to do with the editor. um And every editor is very, very different. So like my YA editor loves lots of description and my ah my adult editor doesn't And so it's very, everyone's so different that I really just treat it as like, this is me and this book with this editor and it is our creature that we're forming. And and i don't I don't notice so much there being a huge difference between adult and
00:17:11
Speaker
children but then I will say if if not that I expect anyone to have done it but my kids books are there's all kinds of ways to write a kids book and mine are not the oh my god farts and drums and run it like those aren't my kinds of I write quite um and quite interior kids books I would say for for sensitive and kids and so there wasn't like a massive departure I think in terms of writer's voice or or that it was just a content change that that changed so
00:17:44
Speaker
I didn't notice massive differences between the two except that it's lovely to be able to swear um and the editor wanted more the editor was like more swearing here and so I mean genuinely okay so yeah so in some ways you were sort of more corrected it was more there was more like oh we're worried this will upset someone then when I don't want to misrepresent the amazing team at Pan Mac. But no, I wasn't ever. It was never like, it it was always, v but I just was like, oh no, this is this is absolutely because adults have so much more of a voice in review spaces than children do, which I find so interesting. and It's one of the weird things about writing for kids is that it takes, so it' so you can you can't really
Character Development & Societal Themes
00:18:27
Speaker
promote to them. You can only promote to the gatekeepers. But it was it was super interesting for me. And it's also interesting as a writer because no matter what you're writing, whether it's romance, crime,
00:18:35
Speaker
fiction, nonfiction, whatever it is, there are moments in the editorial process where you have to, and I'm always trying to take other people's opinions on board. I'm very used to that. I'm very used to always kind of being someone who thinks maybe I'm in the wrong, maybe I'm the outlier here. But editorially, it's interesting because sometimes you have to stop and go, actually, this is the point of view. And this is, i do actually have to commit to this. So Tom in the big, for example, he's working class and he's got, he's, he's from a similar background as me. And he's got a very big chip on his shoulder just because he's been through a lot of shit when he's in London. And, um and sometimes he would make remarks about um London society and, and they would be highlighted in the the publishers would say oh is this not a bit mean and I and I just had to sort of go is it mean to sort of criticize rich people you know I would say something like I don't know like I think I you know I don't know i think that the wealth inequality is really bad or in London or something to that effect and it it was treated as if I'd like tied baby rabbits to a firework and been like right let's see um But ah so I then I had to sit back and go, okay, I don't want to be mean. I never want to be mean. But this character, this is where he's coming from this and he has to go on this big arc and he has to learn to solve it and he has to take that cynicism out of himself and learn that actually cynicism doesn't really make the world a better place. It just kind of makes you feel like you're making the world a better place. Like he has to go on this arc. So I have to let him say a few things in the first half of the novel that might make people roll their eyes or might make people, you know, sigh and go, oh, God, he's one of those. um so it's those moments editorially where you have to say, I know this might not be super comfortable. And I'm used to that as well as ah as an autistic writer. at But I know this might not be super comfortable or it might not be the thing that the majority of society experience. But i I do think it has to go in. And those are the interesting moments. And, you know, concede a lot. And then sometimes, as every author does, you just have to push back a bit and say, no, actually, I think, I think absolutely some people might hate this, but I think then the right people will also love it. And i would much rather write something that has a ton of five star reviews and a ton of one star reviews than just a bunch of people going, yeah, it was fine.
00:20:54
Speaker
So those moments, those moments editorially are are kind of where you you dig down and the the editors at Pan Mac are so brilliant because they're really good at of of forcing you to defend your dissertation in a way and sort of be like, no, I did this on purpose and here's why. And it's not that they're telling you, oh that shouldn't be in there or that's bad or you're wrong for writing that. They're just trying to interrogate you and make sure that you that you do mean what you say. And that's such an interesting part of the editorial process.
00:21:25
Speaker
Yeah, my experience speaking with editors and speaking with with authors about kind of that relationship is what basically what you've just said is that I think editors want you, they want some pushback. They don't want to just correct your writing and then for you to just do that and then give a better. They want a discussion. They want some kind of yeah conflict, I guess. And it's always a case of, do you mean this? Is this deliberate? Is this on purpose? yeah Because if if not, then maybe it's not, maybe we can't defend it. But if it's on purpose, and and sometimes it's always fun when you do something on purpose, and then the editor points it out and goes, is this on purpose? Is this real? And then, you know, 50 pages later, it it comes to a fruition and the editor goes, oh, never mind. Okay, cool. I i see it now. I And those are always fun.
00:22:07
Speaker
but um But yeah, it's it's great. it's You have to be able to, yeah ever i think books have to have a point of view. i don't i don't believe in turn your brain off reading or or sort of apolitical books. I don't think they exist. So I think you have to you have to have a point of view, no matter what kind of story you're telling.
00:22:27
Speaker
Yes, I think that's true. And in terms of defending a point, I think, yeah, when you're talking about the character, for a character to have a redemption arc, they have to do something bad. Yeah, they do. Otherwise they're not being redeemed of anything.
00:22:39
Speaker
Yeah, it's, I have to have a bit of moral grayness, otherwise there's nowhere to go.
The Craft of Writing: Detail & Consistency
00:22:44
Speaker
And sometimes it's really, i mean, the the most fun thing about writing an adult romance novel is the corrections that come during the the sex scenes where someone's like, his hand's already so his handss already been here. How can it also be here? And so it's like, it's the really kind of clinical, the clinical, um the copy editors just reading it and with a very objective view, just saying like, no, I don't think... um
00:23:10
Speaker
I don't think there'd be that much liquid. And you're like, okay, I agree actually. Like, sorry. I'm so sorry, Jamie. I'm so sorry. But like, it's like, it has to be clinical and it's, that always cracks me up so much. I really appreciate, I really appreciate the copy editors.
00:23:28
Speaker
I can imagine them with like a piece of paper, like trying to draw out a diagram yeah to be like, no, but it doesn't make sense. it does i mean unless Unless they have the athletic abilities of a gymnast, I don't think this is going to work. yeah um and And it's great. i'm Yeah. Cause when you're writing those scenes, you aren't, you aren't in a sort of clinical place. So it's, it's really great when they're like, i don't think, I think they've moved by this point and you go, yeah, no, you're right. Actually they have. Thank you so much. Thank you for keeping everything. that It's really strange. Yeah. But it's really it's really funny. It really makes me laugh. Sorry to bring down the tone of the podcast, but oh it does make me laugh. It was so highbrow until then. i thought it was. um before we Before we go over to the Woodland Cabin, i did just want to ask one more thing. so
00:24:16
Speaker
if you could think back to when you were writing a kind of spark and I guess the initial draft of, of this or like the, when this first came to you, cause that was around the same, it would have been just after yeah a kind of spark came out in 2020. So you probably wrote that a year or so before. Um, if you can think back to when you were first writing that, um, and then the many books since there, what was your process like when, when you kind of first started and how much has it evolved over the years?
00:24:44
Speaker
I think the process of writing the novel isn't that different. i I usually have an ending in mind. I know where where the novel is going to end and that's what gives me the confidence to write from the beginning. So we're just, we're telling a story to get to this end point. And I am telling myself the story in the first draft. So I try not to worry about what other people will think because it is just for me. I'm telling myself, I'm getting out of the brain and onto the pageve onto the page. And then i call it draft zero. I don't even call it the first draft because it's it's not going to be seen by human eyes. So it's just for me. And then and then draft the first draft is sort of like the chalk outline of the dead body on the on the ground. And then you...
00:25:27
Speaker
second draft is you start adding the organs you give it a brain and a heart and some guts hopefully and a bit of a spine and then the draft after that you start putting the skin on which is the sort of superficial it's like a Frankenstein's creature you're building and so That process hasn't changed, but what has changed is the anxiety, because when you write your first novel, no matter what kind of novel it is, or your first book, I should say, you're so blissfully ignorant. There's so many things you don't know about, and it's a really beautiful way to work. But once you're writing that second book, or or third, or fourth, or beyond, it never goes away. You are like...
00:26:05
Speaker
well what if someone writes letters to me about this part or or like it becomes quite you're just so aware of especially after a kind of spark being my first book and it it just makes you so aware of how many eyes are actually going to land on the book and that can sometimes creep into the creative process so I i think that has changed but the process hasn't hasn't changed enormously um And having written for television as well, I find that novel writing is so much more fun than writing for TV. so yeah um
00:26:38
Speaker
So I try and enjoy it, but it is it is building up a Frankenstein's creature and it it's going to look however it looks at the end. But my yeah my goal when I'm drafting, my goal is functionality. My goal is, does this look and act like a book? Does it work? And then when we get it to the editors, then I will let myself, like ah like a wine that's been uncorked, I'll let it breathe. And then hopefully it tastes great because it's had time to breathe.
00:27:05
Speaker
And then i can start adding, again, points of view, specificity, all of the things that make hopefully a book great. so But that process hasn't changed too much.
00:27:16
Speaker
Okay, so you you know where it starts, you know where it ends, and then you do yeah do you sort of have checkpoints, or are you literally just kind of
Tools, Process, & Writing Authenticity
00:27:25
Speaker
pantsing it through? Like a lot of, you know i write a sort of, I call it the sort of Wikipedia cheat sheet, which is like, you know when you read like a film synopsis on Wikipedia, and it's very, it's not, it doesn't go into the beautiful moments that make a film really special, it just sort of says, like, I don't know, Dr. Zhivago then walks, blah, blah, blah. And so it's, very It's very blunt. I'll write a synopsis like that just again so I know the beats of the story. I know where the climax sits. I know where, especially that middle section. I i don't know. I'm sure a lot of writers you've spoken to and yourself, I'm sure the middle section, it really is the kicker. i
00:28:01
Speaker
yeah Not so much in romance. I really actually enjoy the middle in romance, but in in other books, it can it can really, that's where a lot of confidence gets lost. So having the synopsis written out helps me. And then...
00:28:14
Speaker
As I said, I know where the story ends and i I don't think I can start a draft without that. And I can't really start a draft unless the character feels very specific and the character feels like they have a want that they can go after and they have a little bit of a wound that they're trying to cover up and they have something that they're afraid of. Like all of these these questions, if those are answered and I know where their story ends, that's all I really need to start a draft. But i will write a brief synopsis, a Wikipedia cheat sheet synopsis, ah just to know...
00:28:44
Speaker
where that's for when you get blocked especially is you just think okay I just have to move to this next portion of the story and I can return to that later yeah just get the words on the page can't edit a blank page absolutely I'm i'm not a perfectionist I don't have time to be in my job i i wish I could be I'd love that but I have to um I have to treat this a bit like i I would imagine someone, if they're making an ice sculpture does, where it starts as a giant big block of ice and you just start hacking away. You just pick up your ice pick and start going at it. And that's the only way to get it into a shape. And once it's in a shape, once it starts to look like a snowman or whatever you're making out of ice, then you can get really detailed and then you can bring in the perfectionism and you can bring in
00:29:33
Speaker
that really critical eye and start making everything very specific and deliberate and beautiful, ah hopefully on a deeper level. But initially in that beginning of the process, I am just hacking away a big piece of ice.
00:29:47
Speaker
Well, that's great. I think it's great for writers to hear that as well, because I think some people are like terrified by the the illusion that they pick the book that they're picking up in the shop is like, wow, this person's a genius. How did they write this? Yeah. Oh, I'm not a genius. This is like the 12th draft. It's... Yeah, many people have him I'm not a genius, but also I totally get it because I occasionally when I can't sleep, I'll scroll on TikTok and I'll see sort of, i guess, hashtag writer talk. And it's people who have the most beautiful looking home offices you've ever seen. They have every color of post-it note. They have a perfectly coordinated desk. They have a bubble keyboard that looks like it's from the future. They have the most beautiful aesthetic in in the world. And they have they've got a big board, like a conspiracy theory board with their whole book planned out every single moment. And they say, okay, and now this is my this is my perfume box where every character's scent is bottled and kept so that I can take a little whiff before I think about the character and I know how they smell. And I just think, dear God, like I am...
00:30:48
Speaker
I'm in awe of them, but I am writing this on an old computer with Diet Coke and a prayer. Like it's, it really, it really doesn't look like this beautiful, glamorous, um pink, purple, pastel, lilac,
00:31:04
Speaker
ah dream that so many ah sometimes writers look like on social media and yeah that is valid and that is fine and those people are going to write amazing books when they finally sit down to write and they stop highlighting things but it's not how I work and I worry sometimes that people look at that and go oh my gosh I don't have that level of organization I don't have that that that that access to beautiful stationery don't have all of those things maybe I'm not meant to do this yes you are there is like every single writer I know is so different everyone does this so differently as um and I know that your podcast um shows everyone is so different and
00:31:47
Speaker
and there's no I think it's important not to get sort of fixated on things and be like, well, I want a career like so-and-so, so I have to do it like them. There is no replication in this business. like if You can do the exact same things as another author and the outcome will be so different. and Every author can be given the same...
00:32:05
Speaker
basic opening sentence and told to write a story from it and everything they write will be so different and that's that's freeing I think but do worry sometimes about young writers that they see all this beautiful uh you know a very a very glamorous and aspirational view on being a writer and and they and they feel like they can't achieve it I do worry for them and I want to tell them no I'm very very not that way and I've made a living doing this full time like you'll be okay Well, fear not, because i the other side of that coin is that I had, I can't remember who it was, I had an author on a while back who it was, she was young, it was her debut novel, and she'd written, I think she said she'd written probably three quarters of it in the notes app on her phone while she was commuting to and from work. so And I bet it's a masterpiece. i bet that i yeah know I know that'll be a masterpiece. So yeah, it's there's no rules.
00:32:58
Speaker
Yeah, and that's that in some ways is the beauty of writing is that you don't need, and like really, you know, you don't even need a computer. I would recommend one. No. You could do it with ah with a pencil and a piece of paper. and Yeah, just like the people did for thousands of years. Yeah, absolutely.
00:33:12
Speaker
But I mean, I wouldn't recommend it for the editing phase. but No, I think the publishers would have an issue with it. But, um but yeah, I, some people use typewriters, which still, which i I love. I wish I could do that. Yeah. But yeah, it's, or maybe they just do it for, for social media and then they actually put it on a computer. I don't know. but Maybe, maybe. It's really, it's, there's a big, big, big gap between how writing is portrayed and how it actually can look. And I never want people to, to fall into that trap.
00:33:39
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. And most books are written in the edits. That is, that is absolutely true. Absolutely.
Book Recommendations & Conclusion
00:33:45
Speaker
Um, we are at the point in the episode where uh, will drop you off Elle and ask you if you were snowed in at a cozy woodland cabin in the middle of nowhere, which book would you hope to have with you?
00:33:58
Speaker
It would probably be Romantic Comedy by Curtis Sittenfeld, who is a brilliant novelist. And it's a novel about SNL, which is the American comedy. Saturday Night Live.
00:34:11
Speaker
Yes, Saturday Night Live. And she doesn't call it that. She gives it a whole new pseudonym, but it's very obviously Saturday to Night Live. my life. okay And it's just really fascinating. Every time I read it, i it's a very niche. Again, it's niche. It's not something everyone might find interesting, but i find it super interesting. And i I, love the way that she talks about a romantic, it's called romantic comedy, but cause it is a romantic comedy, but it's also a study and what that means is a genre. And I love her sort of thesis on it. And every time I read that book, something new crops up. So it would be that, or it would be Ulysses by James Joyce just to finally, finally get that done. finally ticket off the list finally like at dinner parties be like you know i've read ulysses i was in a snowden cabin and i read it i forced myself to read it yeah yeah uh well those are great choices romantic comedy that sounds great that sounds really interesting ulysses is obviously it's great so uh yeah yeah congrats to james joyce on ulysses yes
00:35:08
Speaker
You know what's funny about that? It made me think of, I saw, there was a study a few years ago where they were basically interviewing, it must've been in the UK, and they were interviewing people to see how much they'd read and what books they they told people about that they had read. And apparently the number one book, which people have not read, but they say that they have read is 1984. Oh, really? that That explains why we are where we are. so that's no one's actuallyshley read's great. No no that being said i have read it incredibly depressing i would i think people should read it but i it was it's not enjoyable i'll tell you that no it's but incredibly depressing i love that as a i'd love that as a blurb on the front cover of any book not enjoyable but you should read you should read it you should read it but it's it's like a penance like yeah you have to serve your time reading that book um
00:36:02
Speaker
amazing okay ah fun choices um so next up we are going to go back a bit and ah talk about when Elle first started writing how she got her foot in the door of publishing and a bit more on the industry side of things that will be available in the extended cut at www.patreon.com forward slash right and wrong said that so weirdly but we go with it what you like I've had the good fortune of being the first to do a few things in this industry and it's not easy to do it but it is worth it so do things your own way
00:36:37
Speaker
and and to kind of stick to your to your inner voice even though um you're not the majority don't know if that was in any way articulate yeah no that's great that was brilliant a lovely way to round off the the episode um so thank you so much Elle for coming on and chatting with me and telling me all about your your adult debut, An Unapologetic Love Story. i'm I'm really excited for it to go out into the world, for everyone to get their hands on it. Yeah, it's been amazing chatting with you and hearing about your publishing journey.
00:37:08
Speaker
Thank you, Jamie. It's been really great. Thanks for having me on. You're so welcome. And for anyone listening, if you want to keep up with what Elle is doing, you can find her on Instagram at Elle McNichol Official, on TikTok at Elle McNichol, or on her website, Elle McNichol dot com. an apod Unapologetic Love Story is out on the 2nd of April in all the usual places. And to support this podcast, like, follow and subscribe. Join the Patreon for ad-free extended episodes and check out my other podcasts, The Chosen Ones and Other Tropes.
00:37:35
Speaker
Thanks again to Elle and thanks to everyone listening. We will catch you on the next episode.