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268 Ariel Sullivan | Dystopian Romance Author
93 Plays1 hour ago
Dystopian romance author, Ariel Sullivan chats about writing the second book in her trilogy of trilogies as well as the fortuitous and unique entry point she found into publishing and her journey so far into the literary world.
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Transcript
Introduction & Guest Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
Oh, a spicy question. love Because the writing is sort of everything, right? Like you can fix plot holes, but if the writer... So some readers love that and some readers are like, but I wanted more of this. So it's kind of, it's kind of a gamble.
00:00:14
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to the Right and Wrong podcast. On today's episode, I am joined by romantic dystopian author, Ariel Sullivan. Hello. Thanks so much for coming on and chatting with me.
00:00:28
Speaker
Yeah. Thanks for having me.
New Book 'Beneath' Overview
00:00:30
Speaker
Let's jump right in and start with the new book Beneath, which is coming out on the 26th of March in the UK. Tell us a little bit about it.
00:00:42
Speaker
Yeah, Beneath is the prequel to conform and it's an unconventional way to do the publishing, but I really wanted to take the reader into how Emmeline's world was formed.
00:00:53
Speaker
So you're going to meet a whole new cast of characters and you're going to follow Sasha. a 23 year old Spitfire heroine as she is assigned a mission that she has no want to be involved in, but all of humanity relies on. Okay. Okay, great. And these are, it's the same universe as conform. So this is post-apocalyptic dystopian.
00:01:17
Speaker
Yeah. So it's 200 years prior to conform.
Setting and Themes of 'Beneath'
00:01:20
Speaker
So it's right after the last war that's mentioned in conform. um It's grittier, it's more raw, it focuses a lot on found family and grief and the perseverance of humanity in times where you feel like it should fail.
00:01:33
Speaker
Okay. It's interesting, like you said, it's so interesting to do it in this order where you you release the the one which ends up being the sequel, then you do the prequel. does it complicate When you're writing it, does it complicate the world building when you go back in time like this?
Prequel Release Timing
00:01:50
Speaker
You know, this is my first series yet published, so I can't say if it complicates it cause I haven't done a traditional route from the get go. I decided just not to conform, um pun intended there, but it's just, for me, it makes sense because I've always been a curious, like a curious person.
00:02:07
Speaker
I was the kid who asked why to the point of like my parents ears bleeding. And so for me with Emmeline and this totalitarian government, I see world building as a character and I refuse to break the character to give my reader more information. And so for me, Beneath answers all of the things that you had in Conform that Emmeline can't see based on the society that she's now in 200 years post Beneath.
00:02:32
Speaker
post okay Okay. So I guess as an author, it's exciting for you because obviously after you write conform, you're like, I wish I could tell you this stuff, but it doesn't make sense for me
Interconnection of 'Conform' and 'Beneath'
00:02:43
Speaker
to tell you in this form. What if I write a whole other story, which is much earlier and that will hopefully lead you to the answers that that you're, that you're asking.
00:02:51
Speaker
Yeah, it's kind of like an investigation for the reader. And I just have always been infatuated with the idea that history repeats itself. And so these two stories have kind of coined that they're the same coin, just the different sides. So conform is this shiny side that makes you pick up, you know, the coin that you see in the street. And beneath is that side that like allowed it to see the sun and shine in the first place.
00:03:17
Speaker
So there's a bunch of ties. There's a lot of little Easter eggs in each. And I'm hoping that it like makes a very enriched and like a lot of depth for the reader.
00:03:29
Speaker
Right. Yeah. So was it, this was always how you planned to kind of release the stories in this order? Once I decided to do a prequel trilogy, yes, this is how I really wanted to
From Single Book to Trilogies
00:03:39
Speaker
do it. um i do like to say, you know, Conform was my first book I ever published. It's not the first book I ever tried to write, but it's the first one that I was like,
00:03:47
Speaker
okay, this should go to readers. And it was going to be a one and done book. And that seemed already daunting enough. And then, you know, while mapping out the book, I realized it was a trilogy. And then it mapped it out a little bit more as I was working on all of this last war and everything that came to be. And it became another trilogy.
00:04:09
Speaker
And so that's something that like, I didn't necessarily anticipate, but once the idea beneath set in and I mapped out all of the books, I couldn't see it coming out any other way than conform to beneath.
00:04:21
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. And you mentioned it briefly there, but these are, am i right in thinking these are both going to be trilogies and then there's going to be another trilogy after later in the timeline? Yeah.
00:04:34
Speaker
Yes. So it's a trilogy of trilogies, which I know, confusing. Yeah. So Beneath has three books and it's a whole story. So you won't get every single answer in Beneath, but it will definitely highlight and tie a lot of strings together for the reader.
00:04:51
Speaker
Okay. Right. And the the order, I think I saw online that the second book in the trilogy after Conform is coming out also at the end of this year?
00:05:04
Speaker
It is. Yeah. Okay. Okay. But you haven't started
Writing Process and Style
00:05:08
Speaker
what will be the third trilogy, the latest and in the timeline? I have started it as to when publishing is going to tell I can actually put it out there without overwhelming readers. We'll see. But ah that trilogy is one that I kind of write in when I can't figure out the words for the other ones. So at some point we'll get it to you.
00:05:27
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Okay. I'd imagine, i mean, it's quite a big undertaking to to do like that so kind of stretch of time that you're doing. um and And within three trilogies, do you know where each of them starts and ends and then thus like where the whole thing starts and where the whole thing ends?
00:05:47
Speaker
I do. Yes, okay um I'm not a pantser. would say that I'm a traditional plotter either. i've considered myself kind of a mapper. So I have each book completely mapped out in the sense of I know the ending, i know the climax, the point of no return. You know, I know all the big moments yeah and then how they tie in with the other books.
00:06:07
Speaker
And then I kind of give my characters a little bit of freedom to get me from point A to point B within that story, just because I think the character should lead the narrative. Rather than if I plot it, I always feel like I'm kind of pulling the character where I want as the narrator it to go.
00:06:24
Speaker
Okay. Okay. Okay. I do worry about sometimes i read a lot of fantasy and there's a lot of these fantasy series that seem to slow to a halt and then never reach a conclusion. So it fills me with, with a lot of joy to hear that you, you know where it's going and you know, you have a momentum towards it it all finishing. Yes. No, I know if I didn't know where it all ended, I would have a hard time putting it out there to start. I'm just one of those people. I always write the last chapter first.
00:06:50
Speaker
Oh, when I write a book too. So I like that stop point. And I'm not saying at some point in my writing career, I won't change an ending that I write, but for the most part, I know exactly how I want it to end.
00:07:02
Speaker
Dialogue, little moments might change based on what was you know drafted. but I really love that stop point because it just allows me to have not so much a box, but like an edge to the creativity moment within a manuscript. Yeah.
00:07:17
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. So you write the last chapter first. Do you write out of sequence as well? Like if there's an exciting moment that you want to write, do you just write it and then you kind of get to it when you get to it?
00:07:30
Speaker
I don't because I feel like it kind of stalls momentum. would write like a skeletal moment where I know like this big scene that's been living in my, you know, my brain for a year or two now. I'll write kind of a dialogue moment or something, but then I'll go to the beginning and I'll force myself to go because I think the anticipation and the joy of getting to that big moment pushes me to, to write quicker and to not get lazy.
00:07:59
Speaker
Okay. So it's, you write the end, but then you're back at the beginning and you're, and you're going chronologically all the way back up until you reach the end. Correct. Okay. Okay. Okay. Um, and then going back a bit, um, you said conform was the first book you published, but you had written before how much and how long had you been writing before conform?
00:08:19
Speaker
Oh
Ariel's Personal Journey to Writing
00:08:20
Speaker
gosh. I mean, I guess it depends on how much you want to say, like in an idea of getting something published versus just for fun. I've been writing stories as long as I can remember. I read The Phantom Tollbooth when i was about seven or eight.
00:08:34
Speaker
And I finished that book and from that point on, even that young, I was like, I want to write stories. You know, he he personified all these like typical words. And like, it just filled me with so much joy that you could kind of escape boredom or take somebody on an adventure like Milo does in that book. And so from a very young age, I knew I wanted to write. I've been writing poetry since I was 10.
00:08:55
Speaker
ten um i did a couple other stories. There's one I think I might go back to post the conform universe wrapping up. But yeah, so I've been writing for as long as I can remember. I wrote fan fiction in high school, you know, really angsty fun stuff but lives on the internet for the rest of my life. yeah um So yeah, it's I don't remember a time my life when I haven't been writing even if it wasn't for a full novel.
00:09:23
Speaker
Okay. In which case, well, I have to ask, first of all, what was the subject of the fan fiction? Oh my gosh. it was it was a Hermione and Draco fanfic. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Classic. Which is now like come back. So that's so lovely that now it's like had a resurgence, but yes, I was 15 and very much into Harry Potter and wanted enemies to love her apparently from like the get go. Yes. Okay. Okay. That's a, that is a classic one. Um, so then, okay. My, my, my actual question is, um, at what point, you know, you're, you're writing all the time. You're kind of just doing it. At what point did you say to yourself, uh, I really want to give this a go like this. I really want to try and like form a novel, which I can put out into the world.
00:10:06
Speaker
Um, as odd as it sounds when I kind of gave up on it, I had kids with my husband at 25 and my mom was a working mom. And so when I had my kids, I really wanted to stay home with them. And I'm so thankful for that. But I kind of put all of this on the back burner and then following kind of a crazy fertility struggle for my second, I had my second and I hit this postpartum depression and it hit me like a force that I'd never understood. And it was looking back on it, a gift.
00:10:38
Speaker
because it took all the pressure off because I was in such a low place that I didn't worry anymore if I failed because I just needed something to kind of like keep me going. And so this idea was born during that time and also during that time COVID was going on. So it was just a very isolated, lonely time. And I think a lot of artists kind of fall into their art in those moments. And so as much as i hope to never go back to that place, it ended up being a really big gift because it allowed me to get out of my own way.
Evolution and Growth in Writing
00:11:09
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. I mean, silver linings and all that, you know, ups and downs. Um, I don't know if you did it at that point. I think often finding things again, sort of after we've taken a break, we can be more invested in them. But have you ever spent much time sort of reading about the craft of writing or or going to lectures or or anything like that?
00:11:31
Speaker
Yeah. So I've never gone to lectures, but I did when I was kind of flirting with all these ideas and this conform idea had come. I read The Creative Act by Rick Rubin, and it was a really enjoyable way of, you know, he works with music, but it was a way of looking into the creativity differently.
00:11:49
Speaker
And so I've read a couple of books on it, but I've never studied it. I was going to be a professional writing major in college but got talked out of it like most artists do and got a business communications degree because I needed a better backup. And so again, like, I think I just, I put my own roadblocks up for so long and then finally decided, you know, what's the worst that could happen? I fail. Like it was better than not trying.
00:12:17
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. I guess on from that then, Conform came out last year, ah Beneath is obviously coming out very, very soon. So you've kind of been through the process now twice, uh, through the publishing process, um, writing and editing, all of that.
00:12:33
Speaker
How much has your writing evolved from when you first kind of did your first draft for Conform up to like now when you're kind of working on your future novels?
00:12:46
Speaker
Oh, dramatically. it's It's changed so much. um I'm thankful that I had the experience with Conform because it's such, there was more play and Conform because I was figuring out my own voice. I was telling myself the story, you know, so that first draft was so raw.
00:13:03
Speaker
And now when I draft and I'm telling the story, one I have building blocks from Conform and Beneath in my next novel. But also i know my voice. I know the story. And I feel just much more confident as I'm telling it. Not that I don't still have imposter syndrome moments, but it's changed it's changed dramatically. um And I'm thankful for that, too. It's definitely a lot more polished from the get go.
00:13:31
Speaker
Okay. And is that from experience or is it, is it because you're like, like you said, you're much more confident in things. So the way that you're structuring things, the way that you're mapping things out, the way that you're planning things is much more kind of secure in itself.
00:13:45
Speaker
i think it's I think it's both, honestly. i don't think you can have one without the other. you know The drafting process the first time was really daunting and it's a lot longer. in my head, you rewrote it once with your editor and then you just sent it out and you were done. And now I've come to find it out. you know it's It's four or five rounds of drafts. And it's a lot of time and a lot of effort. But I think that too allows me to write the book differently because I used to sometimes get hung up on little moments. And now I'm like,
00:14:14
Speaker
okay, you know, you're going to come back to this four or five times. You're also going to have other, another person's thoughts within your writing, which is both helpful and sometimes, you know, scary. And so I'm able to push through those little moments that used to hold me up and conform a lot because I drafted conform back in 2020. So, I mean, and then it took me three years, four years, almost four years before somebody really took a shot on it. So,
00:14:40
Speaker
Um, it's just a different process now. It feels more streamlined. I also have a rapport with my editor. i think that helps having a great editor is phenomenal. Um, and she's helped me so much with just how I write novels.
00:14:54
Speaker
How did you find the the editorial kind of process? Is it easier a second time around? Yes. I think there's a lot less ego and emotion the second time. You know, when you're, and when you're a first timer, everything feels not like an attack, but you're so passionate because you've worked so hard to get the story there. On the second one, i was much more aware that so much of what she was saying was, Hey, the stakes aren't high enough here. Like,
00:15:25
Speaker
this is great, but I didn't feel it enough. And then I realized that she's just really showing weaknesses so I can make it better. But the first time around, you're so and don' know'm passionate about your, I don't know. I'm still passionate about it. It was just, I was definitely more emotional the first time I edited a novel.
00:15:42
Speaker
Yeah, I guess part of it is that now that, you you know, when you finish editing or the novel's out, you you can see the kind of bigger picture and be like, oh, everything that I was doing with my editor and all the other, you know, the copy editors and liners and all that, that was all in service of making the best book that we could possibly but possibly make together. But you can't, the first time you do it, you you can't see that that's how it's going to come out at the end. So now that now that you kind of know that, I think there's a security in being like, oh it you know,
00:16:11
Speaker
I might be slightly upset that this you know this chapter I thought was really good, but I guess we're not going to use it. But I know that I trust these people to to that this is going to be the best form that the book could possibly be in by the end.
00:16:23
Speaker
Yeah, correct. It's just one of those things where it's trusting someone else. It's also trusting your voice. And in the beginning, too, I didn't want to disagree with my editor too much. And now I understand where I can like push back and be like, I get what you're saying. I'll rework this scene. But this scene I really want in the novel because a B and C. And then yeah it's just a much more back and forth. um I feel very fortunate. But yeah, definitely the whole process has changed just because it's not new.
00:16:51
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. And my experience having spoken to editors is that they encourage that. They want authors to kind of push back. They want it to be a discussion. They don't want to just do the corrections and then have it given to them.
00:17:05
Speaker
Yeah, it's not the same. It's definitely a relationship in the beginning. I think I was, I was treating it more like a teacher student, which it was because my editor had so much more experience, but it's more of like a companionship within this novel to get it into the best shape possible so that the readers have the best experience and your voice is heard in the best way possible. So it's been pleasant this time ago, like around, I'm in the edits for the sequel to conform right now.
00:17:33
Speaker
Yes. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Good. Well, I'm glad that it's, it sounds like you're, you're, you're much more kind of tuned into how the process works and and it's going much smoother this time around. yeah Um, we are at the point in the episode where I ask you, um Ariel, if you were snowed in at a cozy woodland cabin in the middle of nowhere, which book would you hope to have with you?
Favorite Books for a Snowed-in Day
00:17:57
Speaker
This might be the hardest question you're going to ask me the the entire thing. i am such a mood reader. It's also so fitting because I'm in New York and we just had a historical blizzard. So I've got two and a half feet of snow on the ground. And I did just stay home for kids are out of school for two days.
00:18:17
Speaker
But I can't tell. Like part of me is like go nostalgic. Yeah. And then the other part is go for something that just makes me feel. And I think I'm going to go with what like makes me feel. And the Nightingale is one of my favorite books ever. i think the ending of that is so tragically beautiful um that I think I would we have a good cry and I would enjoy that.
00:18:38
Speaker
i agree. There's nothing like a good cry. um ah Just out of curiosity, what would, did you have a pick for if you went nostalgic? Um, yes, I would either, if I did nostalgia and either do the phantom toll booth because it is such a pivotal book in my life and I've read it to my first son and I just started it with my second who's six, or i would do the sixth Harry Potter book.
00:19:05
Speaker
The sixth one, which is the half blood Prince. Okay. That's the penultimate one, right? or is the Yes. that's That's the one. Yeah. It's the one where you get the background story on Voldemort.
00:19:19
Speaker
And you also have the huge reveal of Snape being the half-blood prince. And I remember as a kid reading that and being like, well, i wasn't a kid, i was a teenager, but I was like, wow, like the idea that she gave you empathy for a villain and humanize them, even if Voldemort was horrible. That was like a very pivotal way in the way I wanted to write and what I looked for when I read after that novel.
00:19:43
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. ah We love a villain origin story sometimes, sort of a justification in some ways, I guess, for, for why people do the things they do. Yeah. I think before that everything was just like, oh, that's the bad guy. And like, yeah for me at that age, when I read it, it was very much like, ah oh no, even the bad guy has a reason for why they, they became who they were.
00:20:05
Speaker
yeah Evil isn't just born, it's made. And so I think that was a big, it was a big book for me. Yeah. Okay, cool. So it's ah ah that's a great, a great selection there. If you took all of those. I know, let's be honest. I don't want to take an entire library.
00:20:19
Speaker
Yeah. But the Nightingale, obviously a pretty iconic, a classic. Yes. It's so beautiful.
Episode Conclusion & Thank You
00:20:26
Speaker
Next up, we are going to get a bit more into the publishing side of things, how Ariel got her foot in the door of publishing, finding a literary agent, all of that, which um anyone listening can find at www.patreon.com forward slash right and wrong. What That joy is hard to hold on to when you take something that was an escape or something that was, you know, you felt called to say, and then you have to take it through all the steps to get it into the reader's hands. So the joy of it all is something I would recommend holding on to as tightly as you can.
00:20:59
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. Never forget why, why, why we all do this. um Well, thank you so much, Ariel, for coming on and chatting with me, telling me all about um everything you've been up to, your writing and your kind of publishing journey experience. It's been really, really fun and interesting chatting with you.
00:21:14
Speaker
It's been great, Jamie. Thank you so much for having me on. And for anyone listening, Beneath is out on the 26th of March in the UK. And if you want to keep up with what Ariel is doing, you can find her on Instagram at Ariel H Sullivan, on TikTok at Ariel Sullivan 8, or on her website, arielsullivan.com. To support this podcast, like, follow, and subscribe. Join the Patreon for ad-free extended episodes and check out my other podcast, The Chosen Ones and Other Tropes.
00:21:40
Speaker
Thanks again, a Ariel. And thanks to everyone listening. We will catch you on the next episode.