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159. Navigating Grief with Humor and Heart - with Dina Gachman
140 Plays2 years ago
Dina Gachman is a Pulitzer Center Grantee, an award winning journalist, and a frequent contributor to The New York Times, Vox, Texas Monthly, Teen Vogue and more. She also writes a monthly movie column for The New York Times. She’s a bestselling ghostwriter, and her first book, BROKENOMICS, was published by Hachette/Seal Press. Her new book of essays about grief, SO SORRY FOR YOUR LOSS, was published April 2023 by Union Square & Co.
She spent three years as head copywriter on Clio award winning content for UPROXX Studios.
She has appeared on ABC's 20/20, CBS We are Austin, Chicago’s WGN and Texas Standard. She’s written two comic books for Bluewater Comics, about legendary superheroes Marilyn Monroe and Elizabeth Taylor. She lives near Austin, Texas, with her husband and son.
Epsisode Synopsis:
In this heartfelt episode, Dina Gachman, author of "So Sorry for Your Loss," shares her journey through the profound and complex landscape of grief. From the unexpected loss of her mother to the challenges of navigating her sister's battle with addiction, Dina opens up about the unique dynamics and emotions that accompany different forms of grief. The conversation explores the impact of ambiguous loss, the business of grieving, and the unexpected gestures of comfort, such as a bucket of KFC, that can bring solace in the darkest moments.
Dina also delves into the process of writing her book and the intention behind its title. With humor and honesty, she hopes to provide comfort and understanding to those living with grief while offering insights for those who may encounter it in the future. Join us in this candid exploration of grief, where Dina's authenticity and resilience shine through, inspiring hope and connection in the face of loss.
https://www.dinagachmanwrites.com/
Cpontact Kendra Rinaldi for a complimentary Grief Coaching session ro to be a guest on the podcast.
https://www.griefgratitudeandthegrayinbetween.com/
Recommended
Transcript
Jackie's Sobriety and Unexpected Passing
00:00:02
Speaker
two years after my mom died. And you know, the crazy thing is Jackie had gotten sober. She had been sober finally. She had been sober a year and she was doing amazing. And we were like talking and our conversations were so positive and loving. And we kept talking about a visit. She had just moved to Colorado with her husband. So between her and my other sisters and my dad, we were like, let's plan a visit. But because of COVID, we were all nervous, right? So, because her immune system wasn't great, honestly. So we just kept putting it off.
00:00:30
Speaker
And I hate that because, you know, like we kept talking about it for that year, but it was a surprise text and call because she had been sober.
'Grief, Gratitude and the Gray in Between' Podcast Introduction
00:00:41
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Grief, Gratitude and the Gray in Between podcast.
00:00:48
Speaker
This podcast is about exploring the grief that occurs at different times in our lives in which we have had major changes and transitions that literally shake us to the core and make us experience grief.
00:01:04
Speaker
I created this podcast for people to feel a little less hopeless and alone in their own grief process as they hear the stories of others who have had similar journeys. I'm Kendra Rinaldi, your host.
Dina Gashman's Journey Through Grief
00:01:19
Speaker
Now, let's dive right in to today's episode.
00:01:27
Speaker
Thank you for joining us on today's podcast. We have Dina Gashman. She is a Pulitzer Center grantee and award-winning journalist and a frequent contributor to the New York Times, Vox and Texas Monthly, Teen Vogue, and more.
00:01:45
Speaker
She writes her own books. She's also a ghostwriter. Today, we will be talking primarily about her book, So Sorry for Your Loss, which she wrote after the death of her mother and sister. And that will be primarily our conversation today. So welcome, Dina.
00:02:03
Speaker
Thank you, Kendra. Thanks for having me. Thank you for being here and for sharing your story, not only through your book, but now here in our conversation so that our listeners can get a feeling of what you've gone through and your learnings, because your book not only shares your story, but you are a researcher as well, so you can see
00:02:27
Speaker
all these glimpses of research you've added and sprinkled through the book as you're also sharing your story. So let's first talk about you and where you live now, where you grew up, a little bit of your family structure, and then we'll go from
Family Dynamics and Alcoholism
00:02:44
Speaker
there.
00:02:44
Speaker
Okay, sounds good. So I am now near Austin, Texas, and I'm born and raised in Texas. But when I was 18, I was like, get me out of here. So I like ran as fast as I could to California and thought I would be there forever. But I went to college there. I went to grad school there.
00:03:00
Speaker
stayed there for several years. And then really after my mom died was when I really felt the pull to come back to Texas because my dad's here, my other two sisters. And we had a son who was like 13 months old at the time. So I went from never thinking I would come back to Texas to being very happy to be back.
00:03:18
Speaker
And I've always wanted to be a writer that was, you know, I studied English in college and you really started journalism many, many years ago, but it just, it took a lot of time to get to the point where I'm writing my own books and I'm doing journalism. It took a lot of, you know, waiting tables and things like that. And then as far as family, so I, I grew up in Fort Worth in Houston and then my parents were like high school sweethearts and had four daughters. So I'm the oldest of the four.
00:03:47
Speaker
And then my sister, Jackie, who's the third, she's the one I write about in the book because she suffered for years from alcoholism and she died two years after my mom in 2021.
Understanding Alcoholism and Healing
00:03:56
Speaker
So we were this house like full of girls and full of energy and full of, you know, just a lot of fighting over hair brushes and stuff like that. And then now it's, it's my dad and then my other two sisters and me. Are your other two sisters also in Texas? Yes. So now I have my sons near his cousins. It's great. Yeah.
00:04:18
Speaker
Okay, now let's talk about your dynamics and of your sisters. We're kind of going to be jumping around. So it's four of you. Tell us the age difference. So you're the oldest. Tell us the age difference and the names of your other sisters, aside from Jackie as well, please. So I'm the oldest. My sister, Amy, is three years younger than me.
00:04:38
Speaker
Jackie was, I think three years younger than Amy. And then our sister Catherine, so Catherine and I, there's a 12 year difference. So it's pretty big. So it felt bigger when we were younger and then at a certain point, she made three years apart. Yeah. So between me and the youngest is 12 years.
00:04:55
Speaker
In your growing up years, then you left to California then at the age of 18. How did the dynamics with your sisters change through that time? Nobody's asked me that. That's a good question. We were all very close.
00:05:16
Speaker
I think with Jackie, I think what changed the most is we didn't really realize what was happening early on. I think a lot of people who have alcoholics or people who struggle with substance abuse probably relate to this for a while. I was like, well, I guess she's just young and she's being wild and she'll figure it out eventually.
00:05:34
Speaker
but i do think probably in my 20s there started to become a rift because it just she was getting worse and worse and i just didn't understand it and i don't think any of us truly understood what alcoholism was so there was a lot of anger and frustration and just
00:05:48
Speaker
really being bewildered and a lot of really tough emotions that went along with that. So it took me a very long time to understand what really alcoholism is and that she wasn't that, like it changed her personality. So it really put, yeah, probably in my early twenties, it became really, really tough. And there were some hard years.
00:06:09
Speaker
the what you're sharing right now regarding the stigma around addiction and it not being seen as a illness for some people right and therefore that changes how we interact with people that are dealing with addiction right we think it's
00:06:28
Speaker
in their control, and so it can create this rift. There was an anecdote you shared regarding you being in New York City. Your sister lived in New York City at that time, and you kind of seeing her, but not... Can you share a little bit about that? Because that gives a little of a glimpse of even the dynamics that can occur.
00:06:53
Speaker
Yeah, so that was a really hard year that was the, I lived in New York for one year, this was after graduate school and it was really the first time Jackie and I were in the same city, since I was in high school, right because she stayed in Texas for a really long time, and then she moved to New York long before I did. So that one year I was
00:07:10
Speaker
you know, able to have lunch with her. But the problem was I, you know, she was so bad at that point for that year that like she would cancel or flake, you know, just not even show up. We'd have dinner plans and she just, you know, wouldn't answer texts for a day. It was really hard and my anxiety was pretty skyrocketing at that time.
00:07:30
Speaker
So the story I tell in the book, it's a chapter specifically about her. She's kind of throughout the book. This happened one day where I was, I worked at a restaurant in Manhattan and I lived in Brooklyn. My sister lived in Queens. And so anyone who's been to New York city probably understands the randomness of running into your sister on a street. And we're in a place where neither of you live. So I was going into the restaurant and I saw her like half a block away.
00:08:00
Speaker
crossing Fifth Avenue and instead of going up to her and saying something I just basically let her pass and you know it's something that haunted me for years I never told her that and I just I knew in that moment that like if I because it was at a point where things were contentious with us because she had flaked on so many
00:08:21
Speaker
lunches and things so I I knew that if I talk to her it might trigger me and then I had to go wait tables and serve sushi for like hours and so I just I didn't want to like lose it and lose my composure so I just let her walk past which it's very sad right I mean that's my own little sister but I give myself a little bit of
00:08:38
Speaker
you know understanding because you know i i was trying to protect myself right um but it is a sad thing and i you know i'm sure people would understand out there that it's just when when those relationships become so fractured like you you had a certain point you have to kind of watch out for your own part so that's what happened.
00:08:56
Speaker
Now, at what point did you come to that realization yourself and giving yourself that grace? And what was your process in giving yourself grace in the dynamics of you and your sister and those moments in which you also had to, you know, safeguard yourself because you have a family. So how did you navigate that journey for yourself?
00:09:18
Speaker
The thing that really helped me is I went to Al-Anon, which, you know, Al-Anon's a support group for like siblings or someone, you know, a spouse or somebody that loves an alcoholic. And so I finally in New York went to an Al-Anon meeting cause I just realized like, I cannot handle this. I don't understand my emotions. Like I was just a mess. So it was very helpful. I think that was the beginning of me understanding, you know, and they teach you in Al-Anon, um, detached with love. And it's a way of allowing yourself to say like, Hey, I'm going to get off the phone right now.
00:09:47
Speaker
And I love you and not feel guilty that you're not talking to somebody. And so that was the beginning of me understanding not only that, but also trying to understand my sister a little bit more instead of just being so angry. Because I think my other sisters felt the same way, that we were angry at her. We saw it as like, look what she's doing to our parents. Our parents were so supportive.
00:10:08
Speaker
loving we were just had so much anger so I think that was the beginning of me understanding hey this is a disease like this is a disease like any other and she's not making this choice like yes she can choose to go into a liquor store but not really it's so complicated so I also started developing more compassion for her even though still for years I would get angry I mean that's just kind of part of
00:10:29
Speaker
Part of it. And in her journey, she went through time periods of recovery as well. And so how different was the dynamic then during her periods of not using alcohol?
00:10:45
Speaker
I mean, she was really like a totally different person, like a completely different person. Um, cause she was so, I have a picture right here, but, um, like she was so sweet and loving and funny and like, so when she was sober and honestly it wasn't often like she would go in and out of detoxes and rehabs and her periods of sobriety were pretty short. Honestly. Um, like I think once she went two years, but we would talk all the time and we would laugh and like she would go home to visit and see her niece.
00:11:13
Speaker
It was a baby at the time. And so it was just a totally different thing. And then when she was drinking really badly, you didn't know she was going to be belligerent. Their personalities just tend to completely
00:11:25
Speaker
shift and so it was really hard in those moments like we all gained this very keen awareness of like the minute I would get on the phone with her I could just tell right even if she's like no I'm sober I can just hear like I'd hear one syllable and be like okay you know you just kind of intuit it so yeah it was totally different relationship if she was drinking or sober.
00:11:45
Speaker
Oh,
Coping with Mother's Illness and Loss
00:11:46
Speaker
okay. Thank you for sharing the dynamics and I know it's still very fresh and since her passing. Thank you for sharing that. The journey of your mom, then let's go jump into that. So she struggled with stage four colon cancer. Yes. Tell us about her journey in her health.
00:12:09
Speaker
So she was diagnosed in 2015. It was actually like six weeks before my wedding. So very good timing. So I didn't, you know, I was like, do I cancel the wedding? I don't know what to do. So it was very scary, right? I mean, it was just, it's the kind of thing you don't want to hear. And I don't think
00:12:26
Speaker
You know, here's stage four, obviously that's not good, but I don't think any of us knew that stage four colon cancer, it's hard to survive that for long, but we were sort of in denial about that. And we were like, we're gonna have a party in a year and say she beat it. And you know, that's kind of the mode we were in. And she dragged herself to my wedding, even though she started chemo like a week before or something. And I know, you know, just your story and your mom, and she was so beautiful. I love that picture on your website.
00:12:54
Speaker
But, you know, so she was, she dragged herself to my wedding, but it was a tough, I think it was about four years that she was pretty much on constant chemo unless she was sick. So she was in and out of hospitals and.
00:13:07
Speaker
I didn't write much at that time. I just, it was too hard to, I just didn't know it was too much. I think it was just the emotions were too much. And so I had an office job, like a writing office job. So I was doing that kind of writing, but so she was like in and out of the hospital. She was on really strong chemo. I mean, she didn't have a great quality of life, but she would have her days when she's like,
00:13:29
Speaker
Let's go to lunch. Or, you know, she got time with her grandchildren, which was her whole reason for living. I think we became second, second class citizens to her, which totally fine. But yeah, it's one of those things I think with cancer, people don't realize often what somebody dies from is like a complication due to the cancer. So what happened with my mom is she, in 2018, she was like set to try an experimental procedure. And we knew that like she had, you know, we knew that like, okay, maybe a year we'll have.
00:13:59
Speaker
But then all of a sudden I had just been visiting and I went home and like a couple of days later, I got a call that her colon had torn. And so that's when the doctors were like, she's going on hospice. So it happened slowly, but very fast, right? Because we thought we'd have more time than we did. So once it happened, it was very quick and very hard. And I write about hospice in the book and our at-home hospice was excruciatingly painful.
00:14:28
Speaker
What made it painful for you to have the hospice at home? Share those little bits of information from your experience, because ours was completely different. That's interesting. I still keep in touch with her first hospice nurse. Oh, that's amazing. I've actually had her on the podcast as well, so it was a very different...
00:14:51
Speaker
Yeah, it's a very different experience would be had versus what you had. So what was it for you guys that was not right? I think that, and I don't blame the nurses for this because I know that the system kind of sets them up to like house to house to house, go to meet and be there for 10 minutes.
00:15:10
Speaker
for us like i'm glad we brought her home just because she had been in the hospital for maybe 10 days before hospice and we were just like okay let's get her out of here like it was you know depressing so it was good to be at her home and things like that but we were totally unprepared like i thought that there would be a nurse there most of the time giving her medication
00:15:29
Speaker
And yet my sisters and I sat at the table with like the orientation nurse and she was like, okay, so you're going to be giving her more free in every two hours. And we were just like totally like deer in headlights. Like wait, what? So the whole thing was just like me, my anxiety levels were just.
00:15:44
Speaker
crazy so that was horrible just the fact that okay i guess we have to do this and my son was with my husband in california at the time so i still lived there so that was i don't know how yeah that's yeah i want to i'll ask you about that remind me i want to make sure i ask you about that traveling back and forth but okay
00:16:01
Speaker
Wasn't there like an incident too with the medication because something that they couldn't find? Was there something that one of the medications got lost or you guys were trying to find it or something because one nurse had put it at another place? Was that correct? No, it was our fault. Oh, okay. Okay. Yes. So there was one, I mean, we were just, our brains were so fried. I mean, it was every two hours. We eventually got a night nurse cause I mean, we had to sleep, but every two hours we were doing this and we were just so frazzled. And there was one day where we just could not find the morphine. And so my sisters and I were like,
00:16:31
Speaker
going through trash bags like I mean we were literally outside like combing through trash and we're just because they couldn't get the medication there quick enough and like the last thing you want is for your mother to feel pain so it was horrible we found it and I think one of us had just like left it on a table so we weren't mad at each other because we're like we didn't
00:16:48
Speaker
either of us could have done it. There's a lot of humor in the book because I feel like humor is very, it can be very healing and helpful. Even the title, one of the titles of your thing. What is it? The classroom or something and a bucket of, oh here, chicken soup, gumbo, and a bucket of KFC. Yeah. So go ahead. Yeah. No, that's part of the humor. And so the hospice chapter has a lot of humor in it, believe it or not, because the night of the orientation, the hospice nurse, I don't know if she was trying to
00:17:16
Speaker
say that she knows grief, but she, she said, she told us that her whole family had been murdered by her brother-in-law. And so my sisters and I were, it doesn't sound funny when I say it now, but like, and in the moment it certainly wasn't funny, but looking back.
00:17:29
Speaker
Later, we just laughed. We were like, this is so absurd. What else can we do with this? But just laugh about it because it's just so unbelievable. She was trying to find maybe that common ground of letting you know she had experience with loss that was personal, but yet it was just too much information for what you guys needed at that time. Yes, it was. I was like, my mom's laying like 10 feet away. Can you not talk about that?
00:17:55
Speaker
So that, yeah, the whole thing was just really hard. But like I said, I don't, I'd be curious to hear more about your experience because I don't blame the nurses. Like it's not like they were mean. And the night nurse that came, her name was Angel, which is very appropriate, but she was a dream. I mean, she was just absolutely wonderful. So.
00:18:10
Speaker
I don't blame them. I think just hospice is hard. It's hard for anybody going through that and the part that it also makes it hard is that depending on what type of insurance coverage each family has, then that would also determine how many hours of hospice care you get for your loved one and then how much you have to then as a family be there for them.
00:18:36
Speaker
So let's talk about your being in California, your parent, your mom being ill, this back and forth and family, you know, dynamics that you did have your husband being able to take care of your child, but then you also have a work. Tell us about that, the juggling back and forth of that period of time. Oh, it makes me like tired, just even thinking about it. It was really hard because my son, so yeah, so my mom was diagnosed
00:19:04
Speaker
before my wedding, my son was born in 2017. So once I was able to travel with him, I think, I can't remember how, is it three months? Maybe, um, I was back and forth a lot. And so he got his miles as an infant because I knew I was like, I want him to be with my mom as much as possible. And so I flew with him a lot. Um,
00:19:23
Speaker
And I think that was part of the start of me like feeling more rooted to Texas again, because I was coming back so much and, but I would go back like at least every two months with him because it was just so you know I just didn't know how much time she had and so we went back pretty often and then the only other time she came to California is when he was born, and she again dragged herself I was like mom you like she was not doing well and.
00:19:46
Speaker
I was like, mom, you don't have to come. And she's like, if your father has to drag me on the airplane, I am coming to meet my grandson. So God bless her, she came. And she wasn't doing well. But just juggling that whole thing, it was very hard. I had a full-time job with an hour and a half commute, and a little one, and then a mom who was sick. And I write about this in the book, but I wanted to handle it. I think a lot of women especially have this thing of like, OK, I'm going to do this. I'm going to handle everything.
00:20:15
Speaker
take care of everyone. And so I thought I was doing that for a while, you know, take care of so much. And then my youngest sister, Catherine lived in the same city. So she did a lot like my other two sisters weren't there in the city. So Catherine took on a lot of the like taking mom to appointments or sitting with her, you know, when we weren't there. But yeah, I just started to feel really depleted. And it was tough trying to give energy to my son and then also
00:20:42
Speaker
handle my mom. So just a lot of tears and things like that. But I didn't go into therapy about it until maybe eight months after my mom died. And then I finally was like, okay, this is necessary. Okay. So aside from having gone to Al-Anon when your sister then was dealing with addiction and you going while you were at graduate school and stuff and starting that, you
00:21:05
Speaker
didn't use therapy at all till after your mom's passing? Is that correct? Or did you ever use therapy for yourself in between that time? I had gone in between. I went in my... I think it was after college. I think I was having one of those 20s existential crises that I look back now and I'm like, wow, that was really silly. What's my purpose?
00:21:29
Speaker
So, I went then, and then I went another time after a really horrible breakup that was, you know, I mean, it was a seven-year relationship, so I definitely needed therapy. Grief, there's grief there too. Yes. And you talk about, you mentioned other types of grief in one of your chapters. I forget which one it is, but go ahead, continue with that story.
00:21:47
Speaker
Yeah, so I had gone before in life, and so it's not that I didn't believe in it. I just thought, I got this. I can handle this and do the laundry and get the groceries and all that stuff. But eventually, I think I just realized I was snapping all the time. I was really agitated. I think it's pretty common in grief.
00:22:07
Speaker
I just had zero patience for like, I had patience for my son, even though sometimes I would, you know, when I found myself snapping at a two year old, I was like, that's not, that's not the kind of mom I want to be. Like obviously moms, you know, lose it sometimes, but like I just was too agitated. And so I realized I think I need to go talk to somebody and it, it took me, you know, I had to try one person and realize that wasn't right and then go to somebody else, you know, to find the right fit, but, um, and I'm still
Ambiguous Loss and Ongoing Grief
00:22:34
Speaker
in now. I think in the book I said I stopped, but now I'm back.
00:22:37
Speaker
Because I love it. I think it's just, as much as you can love therapy, I just feel like it's, you know, as a person to continue to grow and continue to understand yourself and the world, it's valuable. Yes. Agreed. It's one of those tools that is out there for anybody. And depending on where you are in your life, you can always go back to it. It's like a tune up. Yeah, exactly.
00:23:01
Speaker
So let's talk about when your mom was ill. Your sister was still living. She was in New York at that time. Yeah. Was she ever able to come and visit your mom while she was sick in the last, and was she able to attend the funeral and those kind of things? All this, of course, a lot of these, all of this is in your book, but if you can just touch on those two questions.
00:23:28
Speaker
I'm trying to think, I know she saw my mom when she was sick, I think in the first maybe two years, but I think the last year or so, or even two years, I don't think she saw her at all. And that was part of like, part of, you know, I still had anger and all these kinds of things. And I'm like, our mom is like dying, right? Like, why can't you get into your rehab and get sober? But I think part of Jackie, what she was doing is, you know, she didn't have coping skills. Like usually when people start drinking it,
00:23:57
Speaker
I mean, probably a preteen is what she was. Like you don't have coping skills. So I don't, I think she was, didn't know what else to do. Right. So I don't think she saw her much. And then for the funeral, she was really bad when my mom died. Like she was really, it wasn't like, you know, people say, oh, they're a functioning alcoholic. Like.
00:24:16
Speaker
When she was really in it, like it was not her and it was just, you know. She'd get lost. She would be lost sometimes and not come home for days, right? Yes. Yeah. She would fall asleep on lawns and I mean, just bad. And I think of alcoholism as like having stages like cancer, like if some people are alcoholics and it's always hard, but maybe they can get it, get sober for the rest of their life. I think my sister had like stage four alcoholism. So when my mom went into hospice, we basically said,
00:24:42
Speaker
you know you come here to say goodbye to her and then you got to go back to New York because she was really bad and all of us were in such a heightened state of anxiety even my dad who adored you know we all loved her but we just had to say like you come and say bye and then you go back and so her husband and her best friend her best friend was sober and we love her and we're still in touch and they're just all i'm still in touch with my brother-in-law like they're wonderful people so they flew her out
00:25:07
Speaker
And she came, you know, during hospice right, I think it was the night before my mom died, which is, you know, I don't know if you've had this experience, but I think in hospice, sometimes there's strange things. Like I think my mom waited for Jackie to come to die. And then I think she also waited for her grandkids to leave the house.
00:25:25
Speaker
Because I think it was the morning after Jackie was there. So she basically came and said goodbye. And it was hard for us to see her because she was very frail. But I got to hug her. And that was the last time I saw her. I didn't know it was going to be the last time I saw her. Your sister then comes. That's the last time that you see her was and in 2019 before your mom died.
00:25:48
Speaker
Two years later then, you get a text when you're in an airplane. Yeah, of all places. Of all places, and during a time in the middle of still, was that still when we were really restricted in a lot of restrictions for flying and stuff during that time in 2021? It was 2021, so we were wearing masks and all of that, yeah.
00:26:11
Speaker
And so you get this text and you share more details, of course, in your book. But tell us the circumstances of Jackie's passing and where you were in your life at that moment. So that was, yeah, it was two years after my mom died. And the crazy thing is Jackie had gotten sober. She had been sober finally.
00:26:33
Speaker
She had been sober a year and she was doing amazing. And we were like talking and our conversations were so positive and loving. And we kept talking about a visit. She had just moved to Colorado with her husband. So between her and my other sisters and my dad, we were like, let's, let's plan a visit. But because of COVID, we were all nervous, right? So, cause her immune system wasn't great, honestly. So we just kept putting it off. And, and I hate that because, you know, like we kept talking about it for that year, but it was a surprise text and call because she had been sober.
00:27:03
Speaker
Even though I did know that what happened was she was sober for a year. And then we, we knew in that February that she hadn't started drinking again because she basically went MIA, which was kind of always what happened. But this time was different because she wouldn't even, she wasn't even talking to my dad and she always talked to him no matter what. So it had been a couple of days and I was in Florida with visiting my in-laws and I was worried in Florida, just thinking like Jackie's gone again. But I figured.
00:27:29
Speaker
This happened before she'll turn up, but I was still worried. Um, but yeah, we landed in, um, back in Texas and I had a text from my sister, Amy saying, I can't believe this is real. And everything in me knew really what she was talking about. But I, you know, I was, my brain and heart and everything was not letting me process it. So long story short, I called Amy and she said, Jackie was found in a hotel or motel, um, and just drank too much. And so.
00:27:58
Speaker
It was horrible and you know the difference with my mom and with Jackie was one of the main things was I remember this overwhelming feeling of like I can't believe we have to do this again. Like I can't believe like we have just gone through the most profound painful grief with my mom and we're just emerging after two years like kind of just tiptoeing into life again.
00:28:18
Speaker
And now we have to do it again. Because I knew what it entailed and we all did. And I was just bracing myself. So it was different in that way. Because we knew all the bureaucracy, too, that you have to pick a coffin and some morbid, but this is a grief budget. Yeah, no, it's true. No, the business, the business, I would call it, all this kind of stuff that has to happen, which also doesn't really allow
00:28:47
Speaker
sometimes that space for the actual emotions, because you're just in this, you know, like you said, getting coffee and getting the, you know, side this, like all of these different decisions that have to be made that then your feelings kind of are put.
00:29:04
Speaker
on the back burner until you kind of finish all this kind of stuff. And depending on the type of death, then there could be like, then you have to do an estate sale or then you have to do this or then it's just so much so I can relate. So then you go through it just two years later all over again. Yeah.
00:29:27
Speaker
Yeah, it was, um, I was really worried about my dad, of course, because, you know, he lost the love of his life. They were together since they were like 16. And then his daughter. And so, and he had said to us, like, I don't know if I'm going to make it through this one, which is, you know, very scary to hear from your parent, who you adore. Luckily, I mean, my dad, after my mom, but he went straight into grief therapy and he still loves his grief group. So he's thankfully not kind of hiding from this. He's he's full on like, let's talk about it. So I'm very lucky for that.
00:29:57
Speaker
But yeah, he, he was, I was really scared that he like, you know, not that he would harm himself but that his personality would completely change but he's, you know, obviously he's sad, of course we all are but he's, he's doing amazing so
00:30:12
Speaker
Yeah, it was, it was a tough transition, but then it was strange because I write about this in the book, but when Jackie died, I almost like after the initial, like being so distraught and then the funeral and like just the devastation of those first few weeks, I kind of went on like autopilot or something. I was, I almost felt like numb. And then I would feel guilty and be like, why am I not so distraught? Like what it's only been two months. Like, why am I like laughing at a movie? What's wrong with me?
00:30:36
Speaker
And then, and then her birthday came around and then I completely lost it. So I was like, okay, just, you know, living my life and it's still there. But I think that's common in grief too, is like.
00:30:46
Speaker
feeling numbness, right? Or even if it's not numbness, it's like you're just not distraught every minute. The feelings are always in there, and that's the thing. Yes. And the reality is that with her, you made that comparison regarding addiction and then cancer, right? You get a diagnosis. So in your mom's case, you get the diagnosis. You grieve during the diagnosis. Actually, this could be for any illness. You grieve during the diagnosis. So with your sister, you grieve during her first
00:31:15
Speaker
bad episode or a realization that she's an addict, then you grief throughout her journey. Oh, she's sober now. She's not. Oh, she's sober now. She's not. All this back and forth and yo-yoing right of emotions throughout her life and then her death. So it would not be surprising that you had that
00:31:39
Speaker
kind of moment of not believing, because you'd already been through a lot of grief in her own journey. That's a good way to put it, yeah. Yeah, I think that's probably true, because there was up for all those years. I write about it ambiguous loss, where it's your grieving. Yeah, that's the one. That's the chapter I wanted to ask you, because you explained what that means, the ambiguous loss. So that's something I did not know about until I started writing the book. And I actually interviewed a friend of mine who
00:32:08
Speaker
Her father several years ago was kidnapped by Al Qaeda of all things to happen and he was held prisoner for several years and eventually killed but when he was prisoner.
00:32:17
Speaker
I interviewed her about this, and she said she learned about ambiguous loss, which is you're grieving the change in a relationship, or the grief isn't triggered by a death. And so with her dad, she wouldn't know if he was alive or dead. And she didn't know how to articulate that because there was no funeral, there was no finality. So when she told me about it, I looked it up. And then I was like, oh, that's what I felt for Jackie all those years, like you're saying, all the up and down and the yo-yo.
00:32:45
Speaker
grieving the sister I had or the relationship I wanted so badly with her.
Preserving Memories Through Storytelling
00:32:53
Speaker
That was really helpful for me to learn. And I interviewed the woman who coined the term in the seventies. And she told me that she came up with it because she said having a term for something helps people cope with, with their grief. And so I thought that was, I thought that was interesting. And it definitely, when I learned that it was kind of, I don't know if it was a relief to me, but it helped. It helped me. I helped me understand this jumble of emotions that I was so confused by.
00:33:17
Speaker
I had never heard the term ambiguous loss in the years I've been doing the podcast, but I've always talked about grief happening at different stages and transitions in life, but the coin term of ambiguous makes so much sense when I read that. It just made so much sense.
00:33:39
Speaker
Now let's talk about the dynamics and relationships and how you continue your relationship with your sister and your mom now that they've died as well as how you still include them. Your son, how old is he now? He's about from six.
00:33:57
Speaker
So he's young, he was really young when his grandmother died and then he really never really knew his aunt. So can you please share how you continue that relationship with them as well as how you continue it with your son having that connection with them?
00:34:15
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, that's, you know, one of the things in grief that I've learned and I think most people learn is that the relationship doesn't have to die. And although we'd all rather have our person there with us, you know, there are things you can do to keep that relationship going.
Writing About Grief to Help Others
00:34:29
Speaker
So, for example, I talk to my mom and sister all the time.
00:34:32
Speaker
Um, and I've said this before, but I feel like my sister kind of helped me write the book, you know, because she was a really creative person and we never, I think I always kind of wanted to collaborate with her because she was so creative. And so when I was writing the book, I would literally just think or even say out loud, like, what do you think Jackie?
00:34:48
Speaker
I kind of felt this strange force of like that she was kind of right there with me. So I talked to them and I do little things. Like I would tell my son, I try to keep them a lot, them alive for him, even though he's not going to remember. I mean, he was 13 months old. My mom died. He never met Jackie, but I tell stories or even something as small as like, you know, CC's favorite food. That was my mom's name that her grandkids called her. You know, CC's favorite food was this or CC used to do this or.
00:35:14
Speaker
One of his favorite things is I talk about how funny my mom was and say a little funny thing cause she was hilarious. Um, and I'll say funny phrases or things that she would say, and he's like cracking up and he's saying, tell me more, tell me more, or randomly he'll just be like, mommy, you tell me some more funny things. Cece said, and it brings me such joy. Like it's the most wonderful thing cause we're both cracking up at things my mom said. And he's forming these memories of her that aren't really memories, but there are things that I'm showing him that he, he has,
00:35:43
Speaker
some sense of her and I do the same with my sister. So I find that really beautiful and a good way to kind of see how he reacts to her. It's really cute. I mean, he's like cracking up.
00:35:56
Speaker
And that's how we live on, too, is through these legacies and stories and how people's... I say we, but I mean, we will also be a story someday to somebody else. So continuing that relationship and that legacy through you sharing their stories with your son, that is a way of maintaining their legacy.
00:36:20
Speaker
alive. Now you mentioned that you feel Jackie helped you write the book. So now take us into how it is you started writing the book. When in your grief journey did you start writing the book? Okay. So it took me a while to write about grief. When my mom was sick, I didn't write anything about grief. And I never wrote about Jackie of all the years when she was struggling. And I'm somebody who I've been writing personal essays for years. And so it's
00:36:49
Speaker
And you would think I would write about my relationship with Jackie, but I just didn't know how. And I also just always felt like, oh, there has to be a reason. I'm not just going to be like, hey, world, I have a sister who's alcoholic and it's hard. I felt like there has to be a reason. So I would think about it over the years and then just always say, nah, I'm not going to do it. But it was, so Jackie died March 1st, 2021. And so that summer is when I first got the idea for the book. I had written two essays about grief
00:37:16
Speaker
Previous to that, about a year after my mom died, I wrote my first essay about grief. And that felt like, OK, I think I can write again. I can be creative again. And I noticed with those essays that people really commented. They sent emails. They really wanted to share their stories. And so that struck me.
00:37:32
Speaker
that people, and I think coming through a pandemic, right? I mean, everyone- Collective. Yes. Collective grief, which you also talk about other aspects of even when somebody that's famous dies or things like that too. Yes, here they are now. They're the ones saying, both are here. Cute. Okay. Yeah, so basically I had written two essays and that struck me, but then
00:37:56
Speaker
after Jackie died, I had read some grief books after my mom died and I loved them. But then when Jackie died with this double, you know, it was like this double blow and I just wasn't finding comfort in like beautiful sayings about grief or things like that. Like I just, it just wasn't working for me. And so I started thinking, well, I want, like I'm a journalist, so I want to find out more about grief because it is such a part of my life now. So it kind of, that was kind of the initial,
00:38:23
Speaker
seed of like, maybe I can try to understand what grief is a little bit more. And so that summer I talked to my agent because we'd worked on a book several years before. And I said, I, you know, I want to, I think I want to write a grief book. And she said, well, there's a lot, but maybe write a proposal because usually with nonfiction, you have to write a proposal.
00:38:41
Speaker
And that will be what the publishers buy and then you write the book unless you're like Prince Harry who could probably just spit on a piece of paper and get a book deal. So I wrote the proposal and she loved it and then and then it sold but that was that summer after Jackie died which is pretty soon after losing somebody but I think I just had been through so much with my mom and I just I felt ready
00:39:01
Speaker
And this is another thing that really helped is when Jackie was sober that year, and we would talk all the time, I said to her on the phone, I said, Jackie, how would you feel if I wrote about our relationship and your alcoholism? And being the sweet person she was, she's like, of course. She's like, I think it could really help people. So I had that in my mind. And I think that gave me the permission to write about her and about us because she had, when she was completely sober, said,
Supporting the Grieving with Simple Gestures
00:39:26
Speaker
of course. And so I think that helps as well.
00:39:30
Speaker
Yeah, that's why you probably feel she helped you through that process of writing as well. You had her blessing. Yeah. Now, the cover of your book, So Sorry for Your Loss, has a casserole. Yeah. And let's talk about that, because that would go into the part of the bucket of KFC, all the things. And how you came to decide that that was
00:39:57
Speaker
going to be the cover. So the journey behind choosing a casserole and the title of your book. The title came first. I knew the minute I remember that summer, like the minute that idea of a grief book popped into my head, I was like, it has to be called so sorry for your loss. Like there was no doubt in my mind because it was a phrase that that had initially made me so angry. And, you know, when my mom died, people, you know, everybody says so sorry for your loss condolences. They write it on threads. They, you know, like
00:40:27
Speaker
And it just, it felt so, it didn't reflect our feelings. And I don't thought, you know, people just don't know what to say in grief. And so that's why we go to these, you know, expressions, but it just made me so angry. And every time I saw it, I was like, Oh, it's so like cold and robotic. And I really appreciated the people that were like, Oh my gosh, this is so tragic. My heart's breaking. You know, I was like, okay, that feels a little bit better to me. Like if somebody would have said to me, this is.
00:40:53
Speaker
the most devastating, horrible thing, I would've been like, yeah, it is, right? So, but I think people just, nobody's gonna say that to a grieving person, like, you don't wanna upset us. But then I kind of came to calm down about, so sorry for your loss, because realizing that grief is hard to talk about, right? And so, but I knew that I wanted that to be the title for those two reasons, that I hated it, but then came to be like, okay, people just don't know how to talk about grief. So that was always there. And then the cover was actually the publisher's idea
00:41:20
Speaker
to do the casserole because it's such a symbol of grief, especially in America, but I think pretty much everywhere. And if it's not a casserole, it's another dish, you know, whatever it's going to be. But so that was their idea. My only input with that was it's like two hands handing over a casserole. So at first there was no nail polish on the nails. And I was like, I'm a Texas girl. Y'all got to paint the nails. So that was my input. But yeah, I thought they did a great job and it's just such a universal, like,
00:41:49
Speaker
symbol of Greek. And I did want it to be kind of brightly colored. I didn't want it to be dark and all that because the book has humor in it. So that's how that two things came about. I thought of you just a couple of weeks ago, or at least your title and the bucket of KFC because recently a friend had her husband died. And I was like, OK, what do we take? What do we take? I'm like, oh, I wonder if a bucket of KFC.
00:42:18
Speaker
In that whole process, you have a fridge full for you guys. This is when your mom died, full of different food, soups, and sometimes you really don't have time. Tell us why that bucket of KFC and who was the one that brought that bucket of KFC? I love the bucket of KFC. I told one of my mom's best friends and one of my best friend's mom, so our neighbors
00:42:45
Speaker
But I told her, I was like, if KFC gets an uptick in sales, like it may be because of the story. But so it was actually during hospice and people started bringing us stuff during the hospice week. But, you know, one of the hard things in grief is like having to have guests or give your energy to people who want to come over and talk. You know, that's really hard. You know, or when people ask things of you, like, what should I bring? Like, that's just bring something, you know.
00:43:10
Speaker
But I didn't realize that until one day I was sitting there with my sister and the doorbell rang. And this woman Meredith, who I grew up with, was standing there. And she's this woman that I read in the book. I think of her as crystal chandeliers and fine champagne. And she's standing at our door with this bucket of Kentucky Fried Chicken.
00:43:30
Speaker
And she just hands it to us and she goes, you don't have to say anything. Don't invite me in. I just love you and I'm here for you. And then she basically like ran off like, and my sister and I were like, okay. And we just went inside and we hadn't been eating a lot. Like it was, you know, it was hospice week. It was pretty wrenching, but we went in and we devoured that KFC and it was.
00:43:48
Speaker
I swear, I know this sounds dramatic, but it was like breathing life into my soul, like all the grease. You can eat it cold. You can have it in the fridge, take it out, eat it cold. Amazing. You think you have to be so elaborate yet hear what you found comfort was in a fast food fried chicken. Yeah. And the fact that she didn't tell us she was coming, she just literally dropped it off and left.
00:44:14
Speaker
I just loved that. I thought it was a really kind gesture of her. And people can understand that sometimes just drop something off. You don't have to ask much questions. And the same even with the text. There she was stopping by. You don't have to invite me in.
Book's Impact on Grievers and Supporters
00:44:28
Speaker
Here it is. I try to do the same sometimes with messages. Just wanted no need to response to this text. Just wanted you to know. I'm thinking of you.
00:44:36
Speaker
Yes. Especially if you don't live near the person that is grieving, little things like that. But again, without them feeling this responsibility of letting you in or responding to a text or responding to a call, but knowing that you're there. And the part that you say, like, what should we bring? Sometimes narrowing down options if by chance you are, would you like me to come Monday or Tuesday? Yeah.
00:45:01
Speaker
Or, you know, can I comment? It's so Monday or Tuesday. It's something that's a quick decision. You don't have to think so much because, again, it is so overwhelming when you're in the middle of it. You really can't make too many choices. You're already dealing with so much. Now, regarding your book, what do you hope readers take from this book? What is your wish in putting this book out there? What is your hope that readers take from it?
00:45:30
Speaker
I think there's probably two things, because I see the book, I wrote the book for kind of two different kinds of people, I guess, like people that live with deep grief, and then people that are kind of paralyzed by grief that maybe don't have it in their life yet, because we're all have it eventually, but who don't know what to say and don't know what to do. So I wanted it to be for them too, because I think grief can be so intimidating. We don't talk about it enough. But thanks to people like you or, you know, having conversations, it's helpful. But in general, people really kind of
00:45:58
Speaker
clam up about it. So my hope for people who have grief in their life is that I hope it brings comfort, you know, and I hope it brings even maybe some laughter and joy, even though there's tough stuff in the book, but I wanted to be honest and raw, but also have humor in there. So I hope it brings comfort and helps people feel seen in their own grief. And I've gotten messages from people that say, you know, thank you for writing about hospice or thank you for
00:46:20
Speaker
making me feel that it's okay that it's been five years and I still cry sometimes. Like I think some people are so hard on themselves to be like, why am I still so upset? It's been five years or five months or whatever that it's okay. Like there's not a one way it's going to go. And you know, it's that I hope that people take comfort in that. And then for people who, you know, don't have grief yet, but maybe they have a coworker or spouse or somebody, maybe it helps them understand it a little bit more would be a hope.
00:46:48
Speaker
Thank you. Thank you, Dina. Now, Dina, before we wrap up, please let me know if there's something I have not asked that you want to share with the listeners.
00:47:01
Speaker
Let's see. I think, I mean, that's a lot of my story. And more of it, of course, in the book, and we'll talk about how they can reach it. I think, no, I mean, your questions were amazing. I'm trying to think if there's anything, I don't think so. I mean, you know, the book does get into collective grief, which I think now at this point, of course, in the world is obviously on all of our minds.
00:47:22
Speaker
So I think that's important too is just that, you know, I think people can feel kind of isolated in their grief, especially when the news is so terrible just to understand that like you're not alone, you know, and they were all kind of
00:47:33
Speaker
together in it, I think would be important. Thank you. Now, how can people get your book? Where can it be found? And even also, how can people get in touch with you if they want you on their podcast or any other platform? So the book, it's out in the US and the UK. So you can get it at any bookstore. You can get it on Amazon. You can get it at Barnes and Noble. Pretty much any books are sold. So if you can go to your indie bookstore and tell them to get it, that would be great.
00:48:01
Speaker
And then I'm online, so I'm on my website's deanofgashmanrights.com. So I post all of my freelance pieces and essays and things like that. And I write about Greek pretty often, even though I keep trying to not write about grief. I keep writing about grief somehow. And I'm on Instagram, I think it's just dgashman and then Twitter or X or whatever you want to call it, threads and all those places. So if you just put my name in, all that stuff will pop up.
00:48:27
Speaker
On your website, are there ways to link to all the social media? Okay, so go to her website. Dina Gashman writes, is that the name? And then from there you can find all the social media, and it will be in the show notes as well. Dina, it was an honor to have you on the podcast. Thank you for sharing Jackie's life and your mom's life. What's your mom's name? Cece is what she went by, but what's your mom's name? Cindy.
00:48:54
Speaker
Cindy and Cindy's life as well with us and your grief journey as well as the tools you use to navigate and most importantly your book with our listeners and hopefully now there won't just be listeners, there'll be readers of your book. So thank you again, Dina. Thank you so much for having me. Thanks for all that you do just to have conversations about grief. It's really important.
00:49:24
Speaker
Thank you again so much for choosing to listen today. I hope that you can take away a few nuggets from today's episode that can bring you comfort in your times of grief. If so, it would mean so much to me if you would rate and comment on this episode. And if you feel inspired in some way to share it with someone who may need to hear this, please do so.
00:49:53
Speaker
Also, if you or someone you know has a story of grief and gratitude that should be shared so that others can be inspired as well, please reach out to me. And thanks once again for tuning into Grief Gratitude and the Gray in Between podcast. Have a beautiful day.