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168. Breath of Healing: Navigating Grief, Parenting, and Surrender- with Nathan Peterson
86 Plays7 months ago
Nathan Peterson is a seasoned singer-songwriter, speaker, and author whose career spans over 25 years in the music industry. Known for his raw, emotive music and profound insights into the human experience, Nathan has carved out a unique space in the hearts of his listeners.
On March 11, 2016, he lost his daughter Olivia.
After she passed away, she published two books. The first one is entitled "So Am I", to share what he had learned during her life and the second one is "Dance Again" which is his process and practice of grieving, of hurting, of healing, of depression, of anger, of hope, of being. It is his life, his journey, during the 14 months following Olivia's burial.
Nathan's writing and music are infused with his experiences of profound grief, resilience, and healing, fostering a calming presence and a deep connection. His ability to support individuals in their journey to a more present, connected, and restful life has made him a profound voice in both the music and speaking arenas.
Nathan's work and interviews have been featured at Upworthy, Open To Hope, The People of Peoria, Post Consumer Reports and Tiny Buddha
https://www.instagram.com/nathanpeterson/?ref=nathanpeterson.net
Contact Kendra Rinaldi for Grief Coaching or to be a guest on the podcast: https://www.griefgratitudeandthegrayinbetween.com/
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Transcript
Pain and Humanity: A Fearful Reconnection
00:00:01
Speaker
The point of me saying this is the pain that you're feeling is you coming back to your humanity in a way that most of the world is afraid to do. And you're not actually damaged goods by being in grief or feeling the pain of grief. You are more awake to the reality of life. Life is not comfortable all the time. The life does include death.
Kendra Rinaldi's Podcast Purpose
00:00:31
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Grief, Gratitude, and the Gray in Between podcast. This podcast is about exploring the grief that occurs at different times in our lives in which we have had major changes and transitions that literally shake us to the core and make us experience grief.
00:00:54
Speaker
I created this podcast for people to feel a little less hopeless and alone in their own grief process as they hear the stories of others who have had similar journeys. I'm Kendra Rinaldi, your host. Now, let's dive right in to today's episode.
Zencastr's Role in Podcasting
00:01:16
Speaker
I have been asked by many people what I use to record my podcast. I have been using Zencaster since I launched my podcast in March 2020 and it has made it so simple for me to be able to interview my guests remotely as well as do some of my solo episodes.
00:01:36
Speaker
If you have thought about podcasting before and realize that you need a lot of different tools and services, those days are over. With Zencaster's all-in-one podcasting platform, you can create your podcasts all in one place and distribute to Spotify, Apple, and any other major destination.
00:01:56
Speaker
go to zencaster.com forward slash pricing and use my code GGG podcast. And you'll get 30% off your first month of zencaster's paid plan. That is zencaster z-e-n-c-a-s-t-r dot com forward slash pricing. And again, the code is GGG podcast. Can't wait for you to get started and be able to tune into your next podcast.
Introducing Nathan Peterson
00:02:32
Speaker
On today's episode, I am chatting with Nathan Peterson. He's a singer, songwriter, speaker, and author. And today, we will be talking about his own grief journey and how that has impacted his writing and songwriting, as well as you do blogs, as well, and all these different inspirational posts I saw on Instagram. You do little blips here and there that are very inspiring. So welcome, Nathan.
00:03:02
Speaker
Thank you, thank you. Nice to be on your show. So Nathan, tell us where do you live and where did you grow up?
Nathan's Diverse Upbringing
00:03:11
Speaker
Yes, I live right now in Chicago.
00:03:15
Speaker
And I was actually born here, but my dad was in the army. So I lived a little bit of time in Colorado and a little bit of time in Germany as a younger child. And then spent a lot of my life, my teenage years in DeKalb, Illinois, which is out in the corn fields about probably an hour and a half west of Chicago.
00:03:38
Speaker
Now I'm in Chicago. Now you're in Chicago. Okay. So Nathan, tell us about your family life. You said you're, you're, you grew up, I know traveling. So now you are a father share more about that personal journey. First. Yeah. My oldest is now 17. And my youngest is six.
00:04:02
Speaker
So we've got pretty good range, two older boys, and then a girl, and then Olivia, who I'm sure we'll talk about, and then Benjamin is our youngest. So he's the six-year-old. So that's the group.
00:04:17
Speaker
That's the group, the big group and the great, great group. Yeah, it's interesting because it's like I always think would be now I have to and I have almost a 17 year old and then home in a 15 year old. But I anytime I see I didn't grow up in this country, I grew up in Colombia. And so as I was mentioning to you, I'm the eldest of four or that didn't sound like a lot. Once I became a mom to for me was a lot. So when I hear here in the States, at least just because I'm, you know,
00:04:47
Speaker
I don't have any help or anything like that. So now I'm like, oh my gosh, how do people do it? But yet that's how I grew up. So I love having been part, being part of a big family.
Kendra's Colombian Roots
00:04:59
Speaker
And I'm sure your kids love that as well. Yeah, sometimes. So what's been your journey then as a singer-songwriter? When did you start?
00:05:08
Speaker
doing this as your profession with authoring. Tell us about your journey as a singer-songwriter. It's like a conglomeration now of all of it. But started off as a singer-songwriter out of college. I did that for... So it's been a little over 25 years. And so I did that for the first 15 before Olivia came.
00:05:38
Speaker
So we were playing conferences in the Midwest a lot and wrote four albums with the band that I was with. The band was called Hello Industry. My wife now, we met playing music together, which became the band. And then my good friend James plays bass and he did a lot of the arranging work for me. He's here in Chicago.
00:06:04
Speaker
But yeah, we worked together for 15 years. And then when Olivia came onto the scene, we were right in the middle of a transition actually to move back to Chicago. We had lived in Central Illinois for a while. And then everything got put on hold, including the band. So at that point, I became a solo artist by necessity and played a lot of house concerts because I couldn't leave town.
00:06:34
Speaker
during her life, and I'm still a solo artist now. But I feel that is probably changing soon, probably before my next album.
Music and Olivia's Impact
00:06:46
Speaker
But I so I recorded two albums as a solo artist during Olivia's life. And then as part of my processing, I wrote a couple of books as well.
00:07:01
Speaker
And the two albums and the two books match each other. So there's an album and a book called So Am I. And I wrote those together during Olivia's life. And then Dance Again is the name of the second album, the second book. And I wrote those during like the one year, the first year after her passing. And then I've written a couple albums since that I haven't recorded yet.
00:07:27
Speaker
I want to ask you since I don't know, what were the circumstances and how old was Olivia when she died? Being that you stayed home, was she born with a medical condition that made you kind of be home then during that period of time? I'm getting that from what your story is. Yeah. Probably halfway through term with Olivia, there were some concerns and it turned out that
00:07:57
Speaker
They confirmed that she had a genetic condition called Trisomy 18, which usually means that they won't survive birth, but sometimes they do. And so we were prepared to say goodbye in the delivery room. So that was our, as far as we knew, our experience of our fourth child was gonna be sonograms and then a big goodbye.
00:08:26
Speaker
and so we're ready for that and when she came she was born it was an emergency c-section so it just it didn't feel like things were going well and so we're really surprised that she she actually survived the birth and we're surprised again when we were sent to
00:08:52
Speaker
Uh, like a normal hospital room and she went with us and, um, but the whole time, like, like even in that first day, she had these spells where.
Life Adjustments with Olivia
00:09:06
Speaker
we all, including the doctor, like everybody thought that she, like this was it, she was dying and she stopped breathing. And, um, and then we'd like, we're like saying goodbye and then she, all this color would come back to her face and she'd let out a scream and she was like back. And, uh, that
00:09:29
Speaker
was really terrifying, really emotionally taxing. And it happens like multiple times a day for the first, at least the first few months, it was like multiple times a day. But so anyway, yeah, she came back to that, to the, to the visiting room, or I don't know what you call that recovery room. And then we stay there for the three days that you usually do with your kids and then
00:09:59
Speaker
they sent us home and we're like, well, we don't have like, we don't have a basket. Yeah. You hadn't even like mentally prepared for that. You had already mentally prepared yourselves to grieve her death yet. And you hadn't physically prepared then either. Yeah. Oh my goodness.
Embracing Uncertainty: Being Present
00:10:20
Speaker
Yeah. So we weren't set up at home and we weren't set up, like you said, emotionally, like.
00:10:26
Speaker
like oh there's another moment oh here's another moment like everything felt like a bonus um which on one hand was wonderful but on the other hand was like when your expectations are not met even if they're expectations for bad things there's a pain that comes along with that so just this kind of pain of uncertainty and so there's a lot of just like
00:10:52
Speaker
Disorientation what's going on and then this whole this whole time is really a big lesson of her life was so we're facing the discomfort of Being disoriented of not knowing what's going to happen next of not knowing what's happening now we're also facing the opportunity to be with Olivia for another moment and
00:11:21
Speaker
and really quickly it became very apparent that these two were incompatible so either we had to like be on this ride in order to be with her and did not miss these moments and have no idea like like jumping out of an airplane with no parachute like there's no we have no clue or we could
00:11:47
Speaker
kind of do what I'm used to, which is like trying to figure things out, try to predict what's going to happen, maybe evaluate, just trying to get a handle on things. And it was so clear that if I wanted to get a handle on things, I was going to miss her life. So we just, it was that, that fork in the road was there like every moment. And she just kept calling us back like,
00:12:18
Speaker
I don't want to miss my daughter's life. It's just so moving and it puts life in perspective because the reality is that
00:12:34
Speaker
Every moment of our own lives is that way. Yet we just don't know it. But here you knew for a fact that it was not going to be a long period of time that she was going to be with you guys. So really submerging yourselves in her life was what your focus was and not missing anything. So putting a stop then into certain things of your personal life
00:13:02
Speaker
professional life in order to focus then more on your family life and being there as a family and not missing anything now you use the word I loved what you said about expectations that even though sometimes
00:13:17
Speaker
we have that expectation kind of let down hangover, you know, hangover kind of thing that when you have an expectation, then that doesn't happen. Even if it's a good thing that does, how that ends up still affecting us and we can still grieve that, you know, the idea that that didn't happen. Thank you, because that's something that I totally can relate to. I'm glad you pointed that out.
00:13:42
Speaker
Now, how did the aspect then of the children, how did you as parents, because what ages were your oldest three at that point?
Parenting Through and After Grief
00:13:53
Speaker
So yeah, our oldest would have been seven or eight. I think seven. So seven. Yeah. And then the youngest
00:14:04
Speaker
And the youngest, uh, well, the youngest wasn't born yet. So Olivia, no, no, the youngest before Olivia number three, number three, number three, she was, uh, Oh man. So she's, she's 10 now. She would have been three.
00:14:18
Speaker
So even just what you're doing right now, it is so key too. And this is something that I think every person that's lived a grief experience of this type, of the loss of somebody, of how there's a before Olivia, after Olivia, and how your timeline is all around this episode. So you know exactly what age should be and how your timing, the ages of the others based on that is something that so many of us do.
00:14:46
Speaker
I know the age of my dog because I know exactly how many years ago my mom died. Things like that. It's interesting how we do that. So how did you then as parents, and what is your wife's name? Heather. Heather and you help your kids.
00:15:07
Speaker
navigate this experience because here they were, they knew you probably had also prepared them that Olivia was not probably going to come home after having been born. So then you're not only having to deal with it yourselves, you know, this new reality, but also navigating that with them. Do you remember how you guys included them in that process? Yeah, we
00:15:36
Speaker
We let them know beforehand, they were so young, so we kept everything very basic. But we prepared them as much as, maybe as little as we felt like we had to, just so that we didn't overwhelm them.
00:15:55
Speaker
And I think we tried to keep it, it's hard to remember, but I feel like we tried to keep it fairly light and factual. Like this is what's going to happen and it's going to be wonderful because we get to know her for, you know, the slums. But I know that they weren't, they weren't expecting her to live either. So everything was a surprise to them. I think, so we did a little bit of prep before.
00:16:27
Speaker
My picture was like, I mean, I didn't know what to expect. So I just thought, well, you know, we'll put the, we'll put our work, put the band on hold. And like, I put like, I canceled gigs for like three months after her birth slash death day. And then I was like booking gigs after that point. And I was just like, well, it'd probably be fine by then. I just didn't know what to expect. And, um,
00:16:56
Speaker
So when she kept living, um, we just went off the grid and that includes parenting, which was one of the hardest elements of the whole thing. I mean, we, we definitely prioritize that we were only like, we didn't work at all almost. No, we really didn't work at all for a while.
00:17:18
Speaker
And even when we did, it was a very like just do what we can and then get back. Um, she had to be held skin to skin 24 seven, uh, for a lot of that time to regulate her temperature. And she couldn't hold her head up ever. Uh, maybe towards the very end, she started getting a little neck muscle. Um, but she's highly disabled. So, um, it was a full time job taking care of her, let alone any of the, the,
00:17:48
Speaker
the exhaustion and the grief that we were dealing with and trauma of seeing her almost go so many times. So our kids in a lot of ways just kind of lost their parents for not just her during her life, but also quite a while after passing. And we, I mean, we did a lot of things with,
00:18:17
Speaker
but we were also in a lot of pain. And I know that they could feel that. They could feel that the ground they were standing on was very shaky. And after her passing, the parenting actually became more frustrating, like more self guilt and shame.
00:18:42
Speaker
Because now it felt like we had a little more time we were able to sleep. During Libby's life, we slept some nights, we would be holding her and the birds would start chirping and we'd be like, oh my gosh, I never slept this night. I'm gonna die today. Like I cannot do this. Sleep deprivation is just the worst thing. It's literally torture.
00:19:04
Speaker
Um, so that was going on too. So after she passed away, we were able to sleep and that was wonderful. Um, but it's almost like now that we could sleep and maybe I'm skipping ahead too much, but now that we could sleep, we had a lot more energy to really all speak for myself. I had a lot more energy to really criticize myself for.
00:19:28
Speaker
how behind it was with finances and work, how behind it was as a parent, as a husband, and then just like all of this junk that started to come up during that process. So back to your question about the parenting. I think we did the best we could, but really we kind of came
00:19:57
Speaker
circled back around to pick up a lot of broken pieces with our children, probably two years after she passed away.
Reconnecting Family Through Homeschooling
00:20:08
Speaker
So for them, this was a three-year experience of living in very rocky times, to say the least, really losing their parents, then losing their sister, and then losing their parents even more.
00:20:26
Speaker
And it came to the point during that coming around stage where my wife was like, we're going to take them out of school and we're going to homeschool them. And our homeschooling is going to be sitting around the fire having a hot chocolate.
00:20:50
Speaker
And I'm really, I'm so thankful for my wife's wisdom. And, you know, I was like, really, we're gonna take him out of school. Like, you know, I'm thankful now. She knew what needed to happen and motherly instincts. And so that's what they did. The curriculum was being kind to each other.
00:21:21
Speaker
So there's a lot of fighting happening between the siblings. It was really beautiful. And interestingly enough, two months, I think, a matter of months after she made that decision and pulled them out, COVID hit. So it actually was kind of nice that she made that decision before it was made for us.
00:21:44
Speaker
I'm grateful for the mute button. And at this moment, I'm grateful that I've yet to use video as my platform so that people don't have to see me. It's not a bad thing. It isn't a bad thing, as actually one of your songs, Cry, that I heard is just so beautiful. Sometimes that is the only way is just to allow it to just blow up. So thank you. I love your candor.
00:22:13
Speaker
the way that you shared of the struggles as parents of trying to be present for one child, yet at the same time, how that affected the dynamics then with you guys, with the other kids. That is so relatable for so many of us. Yet at the same time, it is, you said we did the best, you guys did the best you could with what you had and with the
00:22:38
Speaker
it. Yeah, what with the situation at hand. Now, what kind of other support system did you have during that time that helped you with the kids or even helped you emotionally and spiritually? And, you know, in this in this journey of of grief? Yeah, we had really, really good friends.
00:23:02
Speaker
who came and they mopped our floors and took our dirty laundry and then came back later with clean laundry. One of them came at four in the morning our first night with Olivia in the hospital. We were like, we felt like we were in hell. There was just so much fear and we hadn't slept for so long.
00:23:29
Speaker
And she busted in the room and just took Olivia and held her and then held my wife in her other arm. And both of us, that's the last thing I remember. We both just passed out and slept and she helped Olivia for the night. And we had a couple of other friends who came and their job was to hold Olivia for a few hours so we could sleep. They were, they were, um,
00:23:59
Speaker
ever present during that whole thing. So the majority were a lot of your friends were your support system during that time helping you out with her, I mean, primarily? Yes, and definitely our parents too. Heathers were a few hours away at that point, and mine were in the same town. So mine were able to come a lot faster and more frequently, but both sets of parents were also
00:24:26
Speaker
Um, there are a lot, my mom was, my mom was helping a ton, take the other kids and just, you know, take them out for the day. Um, that kind of thing. But that was hard too, because the parents were, they're grieving, watching their granddaughter, also watching their children. And, um, and there was, there was some points where I was talking to my mom.
00:24:56
Speaker
she was feeling pain and all I could think was, I can't support you right now. And I said it and she was like, that hurt her because she's like, I'm not asking you to support me, but she's also like in a lot of pain and I just naturally wanted to be supportive and I could, I didn't have anything. And so there's a lot of hurting people trying to care for each other with nothing, no tools.
00:25:25
Speaker
with nothing to give almost because you're just depleted energetically as well. So talking about tools, what were some of these tools you used after Olivia's passing in terms of grieving, mourning?
Grief and Survival Mechanisms
00:25:44
Speaker
What were some of these things? I know songwriting was one of these tools. You did it during her
00:25:50
Speaker
You know you wrote it about your journey Then and you wrote the book which I wish I would have had more time before you booked it so that I could have read your books and then You then had then the period afterwards also with songwriting. What other tools did you feel? aided you in this Have aided you because it the journey continues have aided you in this process Yeah
00:26:20
Speaker
Yeah, songwriting definitely won. There was a point where songwriting was too familiar. And I think that's why I wrote books instead of just writing in general. There was a quality that I found during some of those days that felt impossible of floating. And I think that that
00:26:50
Speaker
is an option anytime for any person to take on an effort, almost effortless, floating through a day. Probably that can be like a very wonderful way to live through a day. During that time, it became the only way to survive was there were lots of days I just remember saying to myself at the beginning of the day, you're going to have to float.
00:27:20
Speaker
through this day, you can't cannot push through the day, you'll push yourself straight into the ground. And so there was a permission, I think, that was really important to give to myself to not have to accomplish anything or exert effort, but to just be
00:27:47
Speaker
And that was a, it was a beautiful, uh, lesson for me because I was doing that for Olivia every day. Like she didn't have the ability to hold her head up or do anything. And you know, we didn't know, was she going to live 15 years? Is she going to 30 years as you know, it's today, the day. So she may live this long life. Is she less valuable? No, of course not. Like she's perfect.
00:28:17
Speaker
What does she have to offer? I mean, practically speaking, nothing. Okay. So she's allowed to float through this day. You're allowed to float through this day. And, and furthermore, if you want to get through this day, you will have to float through this day. It was kind of a, it was a very forced lesson that I think is probably available to every single human being every day.
Healing Through Yoga and Breath
00:28:45
Speaker
So that was a, that was a big one.
00:28:48
Speaker
Yoga, I did yoga every morning. I'd always done yoga, but it became a really important way to give my body space to move and to expand under a lot of pressure and tension. And I would always do it with my, at the time, three-year-old daughter.
00:29:14
Speaker
So we do yoga together and usually Livi was laying on her back there as well. So that was a daily thing that was helpful. Another really big tool for me that is still actually one that I'm teaching quite a bit now is around breathing. And I think the breathing really goes a lot with floating.
00:29:40
Speaker
But because I'm a singer, I've studied a lot of different voice practices, which are always rooted in breathing because breath carries the voice. And so I've studied breath a lot. But I've always studied it, and I had always studied it as a means of making me better at my career. And I started to really learn
00:30:07
Speaker
that what I was kind of reframing what I had already learned about breath. I knew as a singer that babies are really good at breathing and they're born able to breathe these deep full body belly breaths and they can cry 24 hours a day and they don't lose their voice.
00:30:32
Speaker
And there's this functionality that babies are just born with and that somehow as adults, like, you know, as a singer, I can lose my voice after an hour of moderate singing. What's going on? Is it because I'm using my voice or is it because of the way that I use my voice? And it really comes down to breathing. Um, so anyway, I've spent a lot of time learning about how the more that we let go of our breath,
00:31:00
Speaker
the more we start to return to an autonomic breathing, which is how babies just know how to breathe. And what I've learned is that there's something that we add to ourselves over time, the course of our lives that changes our breathing pattern.
00:31:20
Speaker
And the breathing is really just showing an internal shift that happens for us. It's a sign of layers that we put on ourselves over the course of our lives for whatever reason. And babies don't have these layers, but I have these layers. And when we start to pull those layers of control and pressure off of ourselves,
00:31:50
Speaker
First, it feels like we might die. Like I've led these explorations of breathing where we let go of our breathing. And it feels like you might suffocate if you don't decide to breathe. And what ends up happening is you wait just another second and the breath rushes in. And the more that you let go, the more the breathing happens for you instead of being a task that you have to do.
00:32:20
Speaker
And the quality of breathing that happens when you are breathed rather than you breathing is a completely different quality of breath. It literally massages your organs. It heals your body. What I've learned over this last decade is it also heals your soul.
00:32:50
Speaker
So this idea of letting go in order to actually be taken care of and be carried and be supported really became maybe my most important tool during Libby's life and definitely during the grieving process afterwards.
00:33:14
Speaker
Just the visual itself of when you use the word floating just I could I see that in the aspect of like you're out in the ocean and you.
00:33:24
Speaker
in the middle of the ocean, there's and you know, you will not be able to get to the shore with the energy you have in that moment. You doing this right, this paddling like it's going you're going to die, right? If you're in the middle of the ocean and you can it is like you said, it is best to just float, right? And just open your arms, lay there and just allow yourself. So as you were saying that, it just makes so much sense that
00:33:54
Speaker
We do that in our life and just let it just carry us. I use the word flow a lot, but I had never used the word float and you just said it and it just, it's so perfect to just float through our lives. And in that same moment,
00:34:11
Speaker
the aspect of breath makes so much sense. Because yeah, sometimes like, of course, like, you know, you do like certain, like, one, two, three, four, in conscious breathing, and then out and certain things that you do, either if you want to energize yourself, different, you know, pattern of breathing, if you want energy, or if you want to calm down to go to sleep, or if you want. But the fact of not thinking about breath also being a mechanism, is just brilliant.
00:34:40
Speaker
Yeah, you know, the breath work, I've done a ton of that stuff, and I value it quite a bit. But it's really important for people who care about breath, who might be listening to this, really important to realize that those methods of breathing, that breath work, those are kind of
00:35:03
Speaker
It's sort of like fake it till you make it type of thing. It's good because it helps you to change. It like lets your body know, I want to be positive or I want to be restful. But also, your breathing is the way it is because of what you're telling yourself inside. It's because of an internal state, an internal posture. The breathing is letting you know where you are. So one thing you can do is to do some breath work to help kind of
00:35:34
Speaker
guide yourself to somewhere that you'd rather be. But also, you don't want to ignore the child inside who's saying, hey, this is where I am. And sometimes we can use breath work or self-help techniques, there's a million of them, to sort of force ourselves into a posture that we want to be in. And that's sort of like forcing yourself into a yoga posture.
00:36:00
Speaker
The point of doing a forward bend is not to see how far you can bend forward. The point of doing a forward bend is to put yourself in a position that helps you to feel how much you're holding on and then to practice letting go. And I think in the same way with breathing, realizing that my breath is very shallow
00:36:29
Speaker
is useful information for me to just be with for a while. Um, anyway, yeah. No, you said something I'd never, again, another thing I'd never thought of because it's, it's when somebody's anxious, like I've heard this, uh, description of, you know, excitement and anxiety, like the only difference between those two is the breath, like just the, a little bit of the pattern of the breath that changes how, when you're feeling anxious to when you're feeling
00:37:00
Speaker
excited, you know, it's just like a little bit of a pattern. Now, in what you're saying with not necessarily changing it right away, but acknowledging it is not much different than the emotions of cells that come up in grief that we don't have to push them down. They're coming out for a reason, right? So when you're saying of when our breath pattern is a certain way because of however our emotions are,
00:37:28
Speaker
By trying to change it in that moment, it's as if you're not honoring the emotions you're feeling. And that makes absolute sense for me as to why you said it. Thank you for that gift and that too, at least to me and to the audience if by chance they had not thought of breath that way. Let's dive into your songwriting process.
Music Reflecting Grief and Presence
00:37:52
Speaker
again, and tell us a little bit about the journey and storylines of some of these songs, The So Am I, and then Dance Again, and then I know you have the other one, Rest In You. That also has to do with her too, right? With Olivia?
00:38:10
Speaker
Yes. Because the one line that I heard is, when I'm old and when I die, I rest. Was it I rest in you? Or was it after that? She's kind of coming there for you or waiting or something to that. Yeah, you call me out. What is it again? You call me out. You call me out. And then the cry regarding just the emotions that show up in your
00:38:40
Speaker
day to day when you're having memories of her or things that you feel she's around or hearing. So yeah, take us on that journey of songwriting and grief. Yeah. So most of my, most of my albums before So Am I, which was the one I wrote during her Olivia's life, were about
00:39:05
Speaker
life. And a lot of them are about identity. But they've always been just about what I'm trying to figure out in life. So for me, it was natural for these albums to be the the song my albums really about trying to, to be alive, and be present when things are highly uncertain. And
00:39:31
Speaker
The second album, Dance Again, was about trying to be alive during grief. So those two albums in a row, the songs are chronological.
Unexpected Joy Amidst Grief
00:39:45
Speaker
So I wrote them and recorded them one at a time from when Livvy was born until about a year after she passed away. So yeah, the first ones are more
00:40:02
Speaker
They're more like letting go and accepting what is as it happens. And the second album is like the first song in the album title is Dance Again. That was a song that I wrote right after we found out that we were pregnant again with Benjamin. And
00:40:32
Speaker
I felt so guilty for being angry that we were pregnant again. Um, it was a surprise to both of us and I felt like I didn't want any more babies. I wanted Olivia that slot to stay open forever. And I was afraid that if we had another baby, the baby would fill the slot.
00:41:02
Speaker
and that I forget Olivia. And so the song was sort of simultaneously about writing another song as a songwriter. Just this was the first song I wrote after she passed away. And I kind of felt like I don't ever want to write any more music.
00:41:26
Speaker
So I think I'd already started writing it. And then we found out about Benjamin and I realized like, oh, this song is, the song is about, I don't wanna dance in the middle of a night with a different baby. I don't want anyone to be in that role again. I want that to be only Olivia's. And the song talks about that.
00:41:52
Speaker
But then at the end of the song, you can feel that the music intensifies. It's very subtle, but you can feel it intensify. And you realize the singer is saying, I don't want to dance again, tell the music not to play. And at the same time, you can you can feel the music saying you're going to you're
00:42:14
Speaker
the music is going to play. Like, float, float. Just float with it. Dance with it. Yeah, yeah, it's coming. Life won't stop. And I think that's such a hard thing when you're grieving because you feel like your loved one or you're lost, you're lost one or you're lost whatever you're grieving is behind you.
00:42:41
Speaker
And I think the lesson there is, it's not behind you. Nothing is behind you. Nothing, the past doesn't exist. So, and maybe it's in front of you. Like if you believe your loved one is in heaven and you're gonna go to heaven and see them, then maybe there's some sort of forward thing. But even that, the future doesn't exist. It may, it will exist. And then we'll see.
00:43:09
Speaker
But really, my closest connection with Olivia can only possibly be in this very moment, ever. And so that song for me is sort of, it's like inviting me to just be here. And then the next song is like the darkest, angriest thing I've ever written in my life.
00:43:37
Speaker
Uh, I felt guilty all the way through writing it. I wrote it in one day, actually. What is that one? What is that one titled? It's called, is it a sin? Okay. I have to find that one. Okay. It's, it's messed up. It's a messed up song. I've never, that's the only messed up song I've ever. Yeah, but it's part of the journey. So yeah, go ahead. Yeah. Yeah. I was on a walk and I, I was a friend of mine was actually saying, you know,
00:44:03
Speaker
What are you doing with your anger? And I was like, I don't feel any anger. Like I'm, she wasn't supposed to live as long as she did. She lived much longer. Like I don't, it's just what happened. I don't feel any anger, you know, towards God or towards life or anyone. And my friend didn't push the subject, but I could tell like he wasn't buying it. And I was like, I don't, I don't. And then on this walk, I was like,
00:44:33
Speaker
I don't know. Do I have any anger? And I just had this vivid image. My, my history is I grew up as a Christian. Um, so that's my, my, um, faith background. And I just had this picture of like choking Jesus, like, and this whole song came out about like this sort of very cynical, like
00:45:04
Speaker
I don't care if she's in a better place and you're holding her. And like, that's my daughter, like, and it's just, it's a very angry song, but, um, it was good for me to write it. So did you, so you wrote that after that walk, after you realizing that you did, or had you already written it and not realize that you were holding?
00:45:29
Speaker
anger and not knowing that you were by these images that kept on kind of showing up. It was more that yeah, by the time I got home, the song was pretty much written. And I, I just had to scramble to get her written down. And I recorded it shortly after. Wow. That process of songwriting and like you just said, like you just had to kind of
00:45:53
Speaker
I heard Elizabeth Gilbert one time as an author. Have you heard of Elizabeth Gilbert, an author? In an interview, she was saying how when she was little, she'd be out in the fields or something playing. And all of a sudden, an idea would come down or something to write. And that she'd run, run, run, run home quickly, as quickly as she could to put pencil on paper to be able to write it down before it would just
00:46:18
Speaker
let you know fly away. So when the inspiration comes you gotta grab it and put it on paper because it's there as I say like in the ether if you don't do it somebody else is gonna somebody else will grab it because it does end up showing up a lot of times that we start seeing these themes of either songs or movies or things that are like wait these all seem really good I you know in certain and it's I think that there's some in something and the
00:46:47
Speaker
environment that is there in this, that, you know, artists just grasp. So that's, that's our job, I think, is to be sensitive. We're on the very edge of the skin of the body and we're, we're sensing what's in the air.
00:47:04
Speaker
You're the little goosebumps. The artists are like the little goosebumps. You're the goosebumps, the little hair that prinkles up. We're the little hairs of the body. Yes. I love that. So Nathan, I wanted to just ask you first, how can people get a hold of you, your music, if you perform in the area? You said there's a chance of then maybe band back to creating a band.
00:47:31
Speaker
Tell us more about your journey now as a musician and how people can access your music and your books, please, too. Since I didn't get one, I didn't get one. I'll send you one. I'll send you both of them. All my albums are on Spotify and
00:47:54
Speaker
everywhere, all the places. Easiest ways to just go to nathanpeterson.net and everything's there. The books are both on Amazon. My live career right now is strange. I've actually been, I've found myself doing speaking now at some conferences and I play music and speak and I lead the audience through exploring
00:48:24
Speaker
um, letting go of the breathing and just trying to sink more into the moment. Um, so at some point I'll, I'll probably do more specific music, but, uh, right now it's mostly the speaking for lives. Do you, do you speak, or are you guys part of any trisomy 18 communities in which you also share your journey? I haven't, I haven't done any work with any trisomy communities.
00:48:52
Speaker
I've done some work with some grief communities. I'll be, I think I'm playing, I think I'm playing as a, as an artist at the Compassionate Friends National Conference this summer. I think that may or may not, but I spoke there last year, but no trisomy things. Okay. I'd love to.
00:49:17
Speaker
Yeah, no, just yeah, just wondering because a lot of times when certain things like this, you know, you end up kind of bonding with other parents that have experienced similar type of of losses, you know, a lot of times when when you go through grief, you kind of find community in in. Yeah. And so I just thought if that had been the case. Now, Nathan, before we wrap up, is there something I have not asked you that you'd like to make sure that you share with
00:49:46
Speaker
the audience. Yeah, something just came to mind just now.
Grief: A Connection to Humanity
00:49:55
Speaker
So I'm assuming that a lot of people listening have some sort of experience with grief. Grief or gratitude and the gray. I love your title so much. That's so great. The gray in between, which probably is life. So in the grief,
00:50:15
Speaker
My experience so far with books and going to some conferences, there can be a mentality around grief to treat it almost like a disease or a disability. And I just want to say to anyone who is considering themselves in grief in some way, which probably all of us have some grief to do,
00:50:44
Speaker
One, if you're experiencing grief that seems to have nothing to do with the thing you lost, I think that's very normal. If you're experiencing emotions that seem unrelated, I think that's very normal because I think that what's really happening when we experience grief is not
00:51:12
Speaker
just about what we had lost. The thing that we're picturing right now that we lost, I think that something that really hurts about grief is losing our, how can I say it? Losing our sense that we, losing our sense of control.
00:51:43
Speaker
And we all know we can let go of things that are important to us whenever we want to, and maybe we should. But when something's taken from us, not of our own volition, there's a pain that comes along with that that is really hard to take. And that pain is the feeling of growth.
00:52:12
Speaker
We're learning that the thing that we thought we had, we really never had it. We never really possessed it. I enjoyed Olivia while she was here, but I couldn't keep her here. And I can't keep my wife here. I can't keep my own self here. I can't keep anything. And that frees me to enjoy it while I have it.
00:52:40
Speaker
But the point of me saying this isn't to give a lecture on you shouldn't feel the way you feel. The point of me saying this is the pain that you're feeling is you coming back to your humanity in a way that most of the world is afraid to do. And you're not actually damaged goods by being in grief or feeling the pain of grief. You are more awake to the reality of life.
00:53:07
Speaker
that life is not comfortable all the time. The life does include death. And most of the world who we are tempted to picture as more functional, the world that we hope to someday maybe step back into as functional people as well, is actually less functional
00:53:29
Speaker
They've just developed a system around not having to feel what you might be feeling right now. But at some point in their life, COVID could be a good example, a small version or a large version of that. At some point, we all face our humanity, hopefully.
00:53:52
Speaker
You're actually, you're a forerunner. You're more connected to yourself in a way that the rest of the world I think really wants to be connected as well. So all that to say, you're allowed to let go of the pressure to reenter functional society and to just be where you are.
00:54:18
Speaker
and to accept your breath as it is, to accept your emotions as they are, to observe them and to hold space for them. Thank you so much, Nathan. This was a journey. You took me in a journey here, emotional one that was
00:54:36
Speaker
amazing even if there were tears because I was present and that's I am grateful for that so thank you again Nathan again this was Nathan Peterson and you can find his link on the show notes so that you can access not only his music but also wherever it is he may be presenting or doing meditation retreats or breathing retreats or yoga retreats or
00:55:04
Speaker
Who knows what the journey holds for you? So thank you again, Nathan, and thanks for sharing Olivia with us and your journey.
00:55:17
Speaker
Thank you again so much for choosing to listen today. I hope that you can take away a few nuggets from today's episode that can bring you comfort in your times of grief. If so, it would mean so much to me if you would rate and comment on this episode. And if you feel inspired in some way to share it with someone,
00:55:42
Speaker
who may need to hear this, please do so. Also, if you or someone you know has a story of grief and gratitude that should be shared so that others can be inspired as well, please reach out to me. And thanks once again for tuning into Grief Gratitude and the Gray in Between podcast. Have a beautiful day.