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165. Navigating Cultural Perspectives on Death: Crafting ‘Winter of the Wolf’ with Martha Hunt Handler
109 Plays10 months ago
Martha Hunt Handler is the award-winning author of Winter of the Wolf, a novel that tells the story of Bean, an empathic and spiritually evolved teenage girl who sets out to discover the truth about the mysterious death of her beloved brother and finds herself on a journey of healing and self-discovery.
The novel is inspired by the death of Martha's best friend's 12-year-old son and covers several important themes, including suicide, grief, spirituality, humans connection to nature, shamanism, and native Inuit culture.
It is an Amazon bestseller and was chosen as a Barnes and Noble Top Indy Pick.
Apart from being a successful author, Martha is an environmentalist and fierce wolf advocate. She serves as the Board President of the Wolf Conservation Center, where 100% of her author proceeds go to support the organization.
https://marthahunthandler.com/
In this heartfelt episode I sit down with author Martha Hunt Handler to explore the intricate process of writing her novel, “Winter of the Wolf.” Martha’s journey from a sprawling rural landscape to bustling cities shaped her perspective, and her passion for environmental causes and wolf conservation adds depth to her storytelling.
Themes Explored:
- Growth Through Loss: Martha’s personal experiences and grief shaped her novel, mirroring the healing process.
- Spirituality and Nature: The novel weaves spirituality, shamanism, and our connection to nature into its fabric.
- Inuit Culture: Indigenous wisdom and resilience play a vital role.
Recommended
Transcript
Journey from Technical Writer to Novelist
00:00:02
Speaker
Certainly the biggest one was saying to people, I'm writing a novel. Like when I'd never done that before, I've been an environmental consultant for years and so my writing has always been technical so I know how to technically write, but obviously writing a novel is a whole different thing.
00:00:19
Speaker
finally trusting myself and just saying, I'm gonna say this, what's the worst that could happen if I let people know that this is what I'm doing? Because I also couldn't keep it a secret any longer because I was, I got in office and I was making myself right. So I wasn't available to do some of the things that I might've done with my girlfriends. You know, there wasn't any more coffee, there weren't any more lunches. It was really like, I'm doing this and I'm taking it very serious and I can't. And then everybody was like, can I write? No, can I read some of it? And like, no, I wasn't ready for that part.
Podcast Introduction: Grief, Gratitude, and the Gray in Between
00:00:53
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Grief, Gratitude, and the Gray in Between podcast. This podcast is about exploring the grief that occurs at different times in our lives in which we have had major changes and transitions that literally shake us to the core and make us experience grief.
00:01:17
Speaker
I created this podcast for people to feel a little less hopeless and alone in their own grief process as they hear the stories of others who have had similar journeys.
Meet the Host: Kendra Rinaldi
00:01:28
Speaker
I'm Kendra Rinaldi, your host. Now, let's dive right in to today's episode.
Guest Introduction: Martha Hunt Handler and 'Winter of the Wolf'
00:01:38
Speaker
I am chatting with Martha Hunt Handler. She is an award winning author of Winter of the Wolf, a novel that tells the story of Bean and her
00:01:53
Speaker
search of really trying to find the truth behind her brother's death and her own healing journey. And we will be chatting about different themes, not too much itself about the book, but more the themes in the book because we don't want to give it away. And also about your own life as well, Martha, so that the listeners can get to hear about you. So welcome.
00:02:19
Speaker
Great. Thank you so much for having me. And I really appreciate that you actually read the book because I've been on over a hundred podcasts and you're the first person that's read the book. And it's really hard to have a discussion of anything about the book. If you read like two sentences.
00:02:35
Speaker
on Amazon or something. I have the only times I've not read a book is if the they send me like the podcast like the week before like the you know like or something like that that I don't have time but I at least leave read like half of a book but no yours oh my gosh I am it's trying and some of them are book reviews like so it's hard to be reviewing my book when you didn't read it and like that I'm
00:03:05
Speaker
I'm like making up the questions and giving the answers because the person has nothing really to say. Oh, wow. Okay. Well, I'm excited then to have this conversation with
Martha's Roots and Environmental Concerns
00:03:16
Speaker
you. So first share with us about your upbringing and where you grew up and where you live now. That's kind of how I go and start the conversation. Okay. I love that. I grew up on the Illinois Wisconsin border. It was very rural at the time. I could hear.
00:03:35
Speaker
animals that were very, there was a sense of frightfulness and impending doom. And I wasn't sure what the animals were trying to tell me. And finally, I realized that we were the first house in what was going to be a big subdivision. So all the forests around me were being leveled one by one. I was
00:03:55
Speaker
All I wanted to do was become older quickly so that I could do something about it, because no one was listening to me say, this is so bad, and why are we saving some of the forest? It doesn't have to all be houses. Anyway, it was emotionally draining for me. When I was 16, I moved to Steamboat, Colorado. I went to school at Boulder. I emancipated my parents early.
00:04:22
Speaker
kind of lived all over the place. I lived in San Francisco, DC, back to San Francisco, met my husband in a bar in Mexico and moved to Los Angeles. And then when we had three of our four kids, we moved to New York. So I'm part-time in New York City and part-time about an hour north in Westchester County in South Salem. So I'm mostly in the country these days.
00:04:51
Speaker
which I'm really enjoying being back with the animals. And I see the passion just even from the visual as of course we're seeing each other. I see a calendar right behind you with a wolf. And if I'm not mistaken, way back there either that's a picture of a wolf or of a puppy way in the back. Yeah, it's a wolf. A wolf as well. So there is a passion for sure for
00:05:19
Speaker
wolves and hence why you also added a character of a wolf in the book and the title of course.
Early Writing Ambitions and Family Influence
00:05:28
Speaker
So tell us more about your writing journey and how it is you started the career as a writer, as an author. Okay, this is a very good warning for parents because
00:05:42
Speaker
I thought I was going to be a writer from a very early age. I was always like scribbling and making up stories. And I remember when I was seven, I wrote this book about a turtle and a rabbit and I illustrated it and like wound it together. So it actually opened as a book and I waited for my parents to get home that night. They were out for dinner and I showed it to my parents and my dad said, he read it and he said, well,
00:06:10
Speaker
It's not a very good story. You're not a great illustrator and writers don't make any money. And I believed, you know, that my dad knew what he was talking about. And I really put that out of my head for a very, very long time. And I got, you know, encouragement along the way from like English teachers and professors, but I still heard my dad's voice above all others. And it wasn't until
00:06:39
Speaker
you know, maybe like 20 years ago when I was just starting to fool around with it. And I mentioned to a friend that I was just kind of scribbling ideas. I don't know what it was going to become. And she was like, I'm doing the same thing. Let's get together once a week and read to each other and see if we can figure it out together.
00:06:59
Speaker
So that helped a lot because we, we added one more friend. So there was three of us and I had no real story in mind. It was sort of more about my childhood. And I was looking for like, I want something to drive the story and it's not enough. I didn't want to do a memoir. So I was like, what
Inspiration from Nature and Personal Loss
00:07:17
Speaker
is it? What is it?
00:07:18
Speaker
So just like my novel, I was skating one day, ice skating, and came across a deer that was embedded into the ice. And I don't know why, till this day, why that happened, that all of a sudden I could hear the boy from my story, Sam's voice. And it was a friend of mine's son who had passed away. And he started telling me, my story is your story.
00:07:45
Speaker
This is going to bring up everything. It's going to make it all make sense. Just start writing. And then I got really serious about it. And it still took a long time before I told anyone what I was doing. But when I finally did and said, I'm writing a novel and just put myself there and put my butt in a seat every day for, you know, like six hours, then started, everything started coming together.
Themes in 'Winter of the Wolf'
00:08:09
Speaker
And it's so beautiful, so beautifully written. I could not put it down. And as I mentioned, even though you guys sent me the PDF version of it, the Kindle version, I downloaded the audio. And I was like, oh my gosh, what's going to happen? What's going to happen? So that's why I don't want to say too much, because it is a novel. And we want to make sure that the listeners
00:08:31
Speaker
go into it but themes that are in the book you mentioned deer yes the deer there's a very main character also of the deer being one of these main characters as well and one of the aspects in the book is the Inuit beliefs can you touch on that and
00:08:52
Speaker
Why you chose because this is this is important for the centers because I feel it touches on grief of how we grieve or how we The rituals around death and so forth based on different belief systems as well And so with this being the Inuit belief, which is the first time I read with about that I'm not in you know in any way and also especially in a novel Why did you choose though that belief system here of one of the characters?
Cultural Perspectives on Death and Reincarnation
00:09:22
Speaker
So I fully believe in reincarnation. And for me, I think I was a Native American for a lot of lives. And I think that I was also maybe an Inuit because I'm very connected to the North and the South Pole. I mean, Antarctica is probably my favorite place to be.
00:09:39
Speaker
And I don't have very many like-minded friends, so I always have to go along, because everyone's like, what are you crazy? But it's so special there, and it just deeply touches me. And like the character in my book, when we were in second grade, we watched this black and white movie from the 1930s called Nanook of the North. And it just follows silently this
00:10:05
Speaker
This native this into it called network and instantly remember seeing him and thinking he was related to me like I knew him so well. I knew his mannerisms and the way he was living and I was just mesmerized and I remember at some point looking around the classroom and everyone was like,
00:10:24
Speaker
throwing things, doing spitballs at each other. Like no one else was at all thinking this was a good idea. And I'm sure for second graders to watch a black and white movie done years before with no words and it probably wasn't very interested. But for me, it was like, ah, I know these people. I know the way they're living. It's so great. And I just think their other cultures are a lot better at dealing with death than we are, especially natives that
00:10:55
Speaker
We're here before the rest of us. It seemed like it's just such a healthy, yeah, just to, they understand that it's just part of life. Death is nothing more than a part of life. And, you know, we know that we can't really destroy energy, right? It's a lot of thermodynamics. You have to, energy has to stay around. It just can change form. So it would seem like we would have a better way to be dealing with death. My best friend is,
00:11:26
Speaker
um a hospice nurse and so we talk about this a lot and she gets so upset because she's like you know the people that are the most religious are the most afraid of death because they have this vision of like fire and brimstone and darkness and torture
00:11:41
Speaker
whereas other people don't really have that. And you would think that one of the most important things to me about religion is to give you a sense of peace around something that you know is going to happen instead of fear. So it's just very interesting to me. Death has always been really interesting to me.
00:11:57
Speaker
As you're saying those two contrasts, I remember my sister died 27 years ago. And when my sister died, remember my dad saying to us, kids, you're so lucky. You're so lucky that you grew up already with the set of beliefs that we had. And even my dad already believed even at that time.
00:12:17
Speaker
about life after death or you know life after life or whichever one we want to say, however we want to continue it, word it. But because he had had an upbringing that had been different
00:12:32
Speaker
Kind of binding those two of like what he grew up believing to what he was choosing to believe now It was still a mirror of a struggle for him so sometimes I ask people like what when I'm coaching especially like what did you grow up believing about death and what I
00:12:50
Speaker
do you believe now? Or also, what would you choose to believe? Like you said, like what would bring you hope and some kind of comfort in this really hard moment of your life of not having the person by your side anymore? That's so, so interesting.
Exploring Perceptions of Suicide and Grief
00:13:08
Speaker
So my girlfriend, Gretchen, who's the story is loosely based on her son and his death, which looks like a suicide. I went
00:13:19
Speaker
to his funeral. And she was adamant the minute that this happened, that despite what the scene looked like, he didn't commit suicide. And we got to her funeral, his funeral, and everybody was saying these things are like, what? If he was so depressed, why wasn't he on medication? Why weren't you seeing a therapist? And he was like a really happy,
00:13:43
Speaker
He was 12, right? 12. He was popular, lots of friends, played sports. There was no sign that there was any depression here. And I noticed that they only asked the questions of the mother. The father was completely absolved. It wasn't his fault. But there was definitely blame and shame. And it was just a horrible thing to experience because I just felt like, even if it is suicide,
00:14:11
Speaker
If you choose to end your life, it's obviously so painful that you don't want to go on another day. And people think, oh, it's selfishly. I don't think you're thinking of yourself. You're just, you just want to be out of the pain. You're not thinking about how this might affect anybody else. But it made me really want to explore that deeper, which I hope that I did in this novel. Just that idea that we say things without giving them too much thought. And Gretchen and I had grown up very spiritually. Her mother,
00:14:38
Speaker
taught these classes to a bunch of her girlfriends just about the spiritual realm and trying to believe and understand things in a different way. And yet when her son passed away, we both looked at each other like, well, yeah, you're supposed to be here for the time.
00:14:55
Speaker
that you complete whatever you did. But he was 12. What did he do in his lifetime? This makes no sense. So it threw our beliefs completely up in the air. And we were so strong in our beliefs, but when you're actually faced with it, it's a whole different experience. So it was for both of us just talking through this whole novel and understanding also that you can be
00:15:19
Speaker
doing things in your life that no one really sees on the outside. So I think he was on a spiritual path. He was doing things that affecting people's lives, but it wasn't something you can put your finger on and say, well, he had a cure for cancer or whatever. He was doing his work. It's just not always so easy for the rest of us to see.
00:15:48
Speaker
Yeah, it's not like the timeline we think of, at least in my perspective, like in this, you know, you know, time is restricted in the earth to the sun and you know how many times there are days and nights and days, right? Time is just such a construct really. So we don't really know the effect of
00:16:07
Speaker
someone in a day of life or a hundred years of life, what effect and what purpose that life had, right? And the effects it had on others. So thank you for touching on that. Now, how did Gretchen take, like how many, how many years after he had to remind his name with that? No.
00:16:31
Speaker
Brandon, when Brandon died, how many years later did you write the book and that you approach like, I'm going to do this in honor of your story and of Brandon? It was probably over 20 years from his death to the book actually coming out. And we were in touch, but we weren't really discussed. She knew I was writing this book, but she didn't really know
00:16:59
Speaker
I said it's gonna be a similar death and I'm still trying to work out why I'm doing this, are you comfortable with this? And at one point I talked to, he had two other siblings to get their kind of perspective of what they were feeling and that obviously changed like we were just talking about. It changes as time goes on. And there was definitely more of a sense, her kids were really good at bringing up funny things that he did and like,
00:17:29
Speaker
And he was really interested, he was 12, but he had a lot of, it seemed like past life experiences and he was always bringing up really funny things and he was just a cool kid. And so it really helped me come around to that conclusion of you really have to be thankful for all those moments you had and not dwell on
00:17:49
Speaker
what you imagine there would have been if he hadn't been passed because it's around there, right? But those stories and who he is will never go away if you start keep talking about them and reminiscing about them.
Funeral Reflections and Celebrating Life
00:18:03
Speaker
And I recently went to a friend's funeral and he died of that widow maker. So really unexpected. He was like 52. And two of his kids lived overseas. So it took a while. It was almost
00:18:14
Speaker
three months before they got back into the country and decided to have this funeral. And I thought it was the best thing ever because everybody was out of that shock element where you just somber and no one can really believe that this has happened to this man. And it was such a celebration because people had time to like put videos together and remember stories. And it was like two hours of just literally laughing because he was a
00:18:40
Speaker
Funny guy, people didn't know that he had touched this life and this life and this life. And it could have gone on for hours and hours because people just kept wanting to talk about it. I thought, wow, that is just such a better way to do these things than 48 hours later when we can barely function, let alone be trying to tribute, have a tribute to somebody. It was a great learning experience.
00:19:06
Speaker
I, as you're saying this about the different ways also in which people handle, you asked, you know, Brandon's brothers, also some stories as well. And in this story in the winter of the wolf, there is a family of, let me see, hold that one.
Grief in Literature and Life
00:19:23
Speaker
It's four siblings, four kids, four kids, and then father and mother and their dog, which I was like, wait, what was the dog? The dog and dogs and dog. And so
00:19:42
Speaker
In it, you also explore the different ways in which everybody grieves. So talk about that. And as you've just even said right now, in your own life experience and the ways that you've even experienced grief yourself, have you even noticed different ways in which you've grieved
00:20:05
Speaker
as you've kind of grown into the woman you are now in different situations based on the age of the person that's died or the relationship that they have with you? It's certainly still hard when some of the young, really young guys, I think, and that's a hard thing to get over.
00:20:27
Speaker
But the more open you are, I feel like you're able to have those conversations if you have that time and you're willing to go there.
Book Recommendations on Life and Death
00:20:33
Speaker
There's a really great book called
00:20:36
Speaker
the end of life book club where he was a New York Times writer and his mother is, has a terminal cancer, but she's still going through chemo. And he decides to have this book club with her where they're going to just write down every book that they never got to. And they'll read them and discuss them as she's getting her chemo. And he moves in with her and they go through this whole thing.
00:21:00
Speaker
without having to talk about, okay, so what has your life been like? It got brought up through all these books and it's just a great discussion. I thought it was an amazing book. I recommend it for anybody. But I was so grateful that my parents both died of like a little bit longer illnesses. So there was time and I was comfortable going there to, you know, tell me what it was like when you were five and when you're six and what you're,
00:21:27
Speaker
You know, whatever. It was great to finally ask all those things and I was recording it. I did the same thing with my father. And now I'm doing Story Worth, have you heard of that?
00:21:38
Speaker
where it's like we sign up for StoryWorth and every week it asks you a question or you can ask, you can pick, you can make up your own question. And it's sort of all different things. I just got an advertising, I actually just got an advertising on Instagram, I think. I did something, I interviewed the founder of another organization called No Story Lost, but I just got an Instagram sponsored ad just this morning of what you're saying.
00:22:03
Speaker
Yeah, I really like it because on my own, I probably, you know, it would be one of those things, yes, someday I'm going to get to this. But I love the way it prompts you every week. And then one of my daughters started asking me questions, which I'm now using in place of some of their questions, which aren't as relevant. And you can add pictures to it. Yeah, it's just it's just like, I'll be happy that I have this for my kids, because
00:22:31
Speaker
There's going to be a lot you forget to ask anybody about their whole lives growing up. I always like the idea of writing to your 12-year-old self and your 15-year-old self because there's just so much knowledge and you want to give them all that stuff that you didn't have.
00:22:52
Speaker
just like you want to have empathy for what they're going through, but also be like, you don't have to dress like everybody else. You don't have to be afraid to say your thoughts that you think are crazy because they're not so crazy. You know, at least write them down somewhere so you remember them. Yeah, I just think like, yeah, life is just amazing that way. Thank you for sharing that experience and
00:23:15
Speaker
Shout out to, it was Story Worth, right? Story Worth, yeah. Story Worth, I think. And then the book was The End of Life Book Club. So those two, and I'll try to remember and put them on the show notes, but here they are. Now, in writing this book, what did you find was the most challenging?
Challenges in Writing and Personal Growth
00:23:36
Speaker
And I asked this also thinking of what you just said about your own upbringing and your first story of your turtle and the rabbit and being already told you didn't do a good job, basically, or the story. So what was some of the biggest challenges in writing this book?
00:23:58
Speaker
Certainly the biggest one was saying to people, I'm writing a novel. Like when I'd never done that before, I've been an environmental consultant for years. And so my writing has always been technical. So I know how to technically write, but obviously writing a novel is a whole different thing.
00:24:15
Speaker
finally trusting myself and just saying, I'm going to say this. What's the worst that could happen if I let people know that this is what I'm doing? Because I also couldn't keep it a secret any longer because I was, I got an office and I was making myself right. So I wasn't available to do some of the things that I might've done with my girlfriends. You know, there wasn't any more copy. There weren't any more lunches. It was really like, I'm doing this and I'm taking it very serious and I can't. And then everybody was like, can I write? Can I read some of it?
00:24:42
Speaker
No, I wasn't ready for that part. I'd be I'd be nervous, especially after what you just said of like your trauma, quote unquote, showing it to your parents, you know, your parents as you were little, and then somebody you say, it's kind of like when you choose a baby name, and then you tell people are like, now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Because I thought, what do you know, if you say that you like it, I'm not gonna believe you.
00:25:11
Speaker
I doubt you're going to say you don't like it because you don't want to hurt my feelings. So there's nothing good to becoming of a son reading my novel.
Editing and Finding Purpose in Writing
00:25:20
Speaker
I'd much rather send it to somebody that doesn't have any ball in the game. They don't even know me. They're not going to hurt me. So it was a huge thing when someone said to me, because I think my novel was at one point
00:25:34
Speaker
100,000 words and it needs to be more like 40,000 for a first time. I have a lot to cut out. So I just kept, any story that had happened to me, I just kept what I thought was remotely funny. I would just like throw it in there, just try to weave around it. And this big book coach was like, oh no, no, no. You know, like you need to read every sentence. And if it doesn't move along, you know, the theme, a character, the setting, then it needs to go.
00:26:03
Speaker
And so that was like, wow, chop, chop, chop, chop, chop. And that was hugely helpful. And her telling me, so why are you writing this book? Which I never even stopped to think, why was I writing this book? She goes, you need to know that. I mean, it has to be, there needs to be a reason. People don't need one more book to read if it doesn't get them a little further in life. And so that was a huge
00:26:26
Speaker
be helpful. Obviously, something I probably could have read on the internet and been like, Oh, that's a good idea. But she made me do sort of a whole vision board of like, what the story is going to make you grow into. She's like, you can do a tree, you can do a river, something has to take you from A to Z, like, and where's that going? So that was like a very good visual for me to have that. And I love the fact that
00:26:52
Speaker
It was a novel, yet touching on these really major life themes that we all can relate to. So it's like for the listener, at least for me, hearing this, feeling the pull of the tug of emotions, going with the characters and the different ones, I actually could relate to several of them. I could relate to.
00:27:16
Speaker
the character of Bean and I could relate to the character of the mom because I've been, you know, it's like, I'm both of those, you know, I'm a sister, I'm also a mother. So those types of things and just relating to that. How was it for you to get into writing in the voice of teenagers?
00:27:38
Speaker
as well. Like what was your inspiration around that? Because okay, yeah, this is a good one because I originally had the protagonist being she was getting her MFA. And she was so she's in the serious writing program. And she's getting comments back from her advisor saying,
00:28:00
Speaker
We think you should stop the program because you're not delving deep enough into characters.
YA Influence and Character Development
00:28:06
Speaker
There's something that's keeping you from going to the places deep enough inside somebody that makes your stories interesting. And so then she starts reliving her brother's death from when she was 15 and how that affected her. So I took that novel in.
00:28:23
Speaker
you know, sent it out to a bunch of agents. And one of them took the time to say, actually, I think it was like three different agents said, this would be so much better if you kept her at 15. Like, don't look back. That just takes away a lot of tension and interestingness. Like, keep her in that place. And that's going to be hard to do.
00:28:46
Speaker
So, and I had said, okay, well, I don't know anything about the teenage voice. My kids are older now. Like, go to the bookstore and start reading some teenage novels, which like, wow, YA novels are way more real and deep than they were when I was a kid. I was kind of shocked, but also just
00:29:07
Speaker
amazed how great they were. I could read teen literature all the time now. I love that stuff. So that really helped me find who being was. And it helped me tap into my own childhood and who I was and who I kind of wished I would have been. People are like, who's your favorite character in the book? It's being, because it's like me if I didn't put all those limitations on myself or didn't listen to all those outside
00:29:36
Speaker
voices. Yeah, like she, against everyone's wishes, just keeps digging into a brother's death, just cannot accept that a suicide was the cause of it. And not that she felt like suicide is such a bad thing, just that it just didn't, her gut was saying, no, this isn't it. This is not it. One of my favorite books is The Gift of Fear. Do you know that book at all? I do not.
00:30:04
Speaker
It's Gavin DeBecker. And what he does is take, especially women that have had very violent encounters, either rapes or muggings or something that really has given them PTSD and they haven't really been able to move on from that. And he gets them to go back to that moment and see, like one of them is like this woman
00:30:31
Speaker
She pulls up in front of her apartment. She sees this guy kind of walking in the street behind her. She immediately gets a horrible feeling. And she's kind of fighting that feeling thinking like, why am I so scared? It's the middle of the day. I'm going to be fine. And she talks herself out of what her gut is telling her. And it's like our it's like our superpower, like every other brain. Yes, it's right. It's such an important thing, but she
00:31:02
Speaker
She ignores it. She gets out of her car. She opens her trunk. She's got groceries. This guy says, can I help you with your groceries? And she said, no, I'm fine. I just live one flight up. And he's like, no, let me help you. You've got three bad eyes. You've only got two hands. Well, he goes on to horribly rape her. And so he gets you to see you could have stopped that from happening if you were just listening.
00:31:30
Speaker
I mean, the thing to do would have been to lock your doors and drive away. Simple. So he gets people to see that there was always these moments where you were conflicted with the way I feel, and then my brain saying, oh, it's going to be
The Role of Intuition and Empowerment for Youth
00:31:45
Speaker
OK. This is ridiculous. You're crazy making here. And I think that's so important. And when you're young, I think those feelings are there even stronger. And the more that you don't listen to them or tap them down,
00:32:02
Speaker
I think they just stop showing up for you anymore. Like if you're not going to listen to me, I don't, what's the point? But it's like every animal on the planet knows when a predator is in your vicinity and they know what to do and they don't ignore those feelings. I think, yeah, we have to get back to that place because it's an important one. You, you, you know, being that the character in the story is a teenager
00:32:25
Speaker
And she tries to research her a little bit or do things without her parents necessarily knowing too much too at the beginning. She does have a really good friend and that's who she confides in and being able to share all this.
00:32:43
Speaker
Let's talk about that part too, because it's also not only just about ourselves blocking that intuition, how easily we allow others to block our own and even just us as parents of being able to validate our own children's
00:33:04
Speaker
fears or emotions or situations as well, correct? Correct. I feel like my mom was just typically really good at this when she, I would say, can I go to this party with these friends? And she's like, I don't know. How are you feeling about it?
00:33:20
Speaker
And when she would bring it back to me, I always had, like, I don't think I should probably go. It's not really funny. I'd say, okay, then I don't think you should go. So, like, that's a good thing as a parent to say to your kids, like, right? To give them some authority about themselves. Like, I don't know how the sugar went, too. I don't know the friend you're talking about going, what is it that's telling you in your gut, yes or no? Or are you kind of squishy-squashy about this? Then I would say no.
00:33:50
Speaker
there's any feeling at all. And it's not a positive go for it that it's enough. That is that's so great. I'm gonna use that how are you feeling about it instead of just because also, gosh, it's like as parents, we even experience experience that aspect of, of guilt so much too, right. And so then if we kind of already allowed it to be
00:34:17
Speaker
dissipated by the other person choosing rather than us choosing for them. It could take a little bit. I'm glad I'm on the other side of this. My kids are all in their late twenties and thirties, but so much there as a parent. It's so tough. I want to talk about how these type of themes and novels, in this case, grief in what believes
00:34:45
Speaker
suicide or any other or death. The importance of novels addressing these type of themes. Can you talk about that?
Addressing Grief Through Novels
00:34:55
Speaker
And in some of these research books that you read of the teenagers, were there some of these heavier themes also? There were. And I think like at least we're talking about it now. Right. And it's so much more palatable to read it in a novel form than you're probably not going to pick up the nonfiction book.
00:35:14
Speaker
on suicides or on, you know, it's just so much more palatable than something that you can relate to in some way and get you thinking. And that's all I really want to do in my novel is get us all thinking about this. I'm about to have my 65th birthday and I've invited a bunch of women to go away with me.
00:35:37
Speaker
I'm thinking about my themes for each night. I want to do something different. But one of them is going to be to talk about how you see your death. Like, what do you want? Have you ever told anybody exactly what you envision this? Because when you're in the midst of you have to deal with your parents' death or whatever,
00:35:57
Speaker
It'd be so nice to have one piece of paper that said, this was my vision. You don't have to carry it out to the T, but I want these songs to be played. I want it to be a party around this lake. I want my body disposed of in this manner. I was just reading the other day that if you have a pacemaker, you can tell them you want to be given to a vet because pacemakers can't get transferred from human to human. But a lot of dogs die because they
00:36:27
Speaker
here, the owner can't afford a pacemaker. I'd never
Cultural Practices in Grieving
00:36:30
Speaker
heard that before. So it's like a document also that you have to constantly update based on new things that you learn. But yeah, I just think it's I want I just want death to be something it's going to happen to all of us. So let's just talk about it more. It's like, I was lucky enough to be in Madagascar when they have their ritual. I think it's
00:36:55
Speaker
where at the seven-year anniversary of the death, they dig up the bones from the casket and carry them around singing songs. And they actually dig up the bones, put them in this sheet, write the name of this piece on it,
00:37:13
Speaker
decorate it any way they want. And they believe that it's their ability to communicate with that soul a little bit closer than if they're not holding the bones. And it just sounds so weird to other people, but anything that makes you feel closer to the person I think is great.
00:37:30
Speaker
Let's talk about that because in the book, one thing was the beliefs of the person that died. The other thing is the beliefs of the people that are around and grieving. So in this concept of even yourself writing what your death wishes are and how you'd wish for your body to be taken care of and the ceremonies and all that kind of stuff,
00:37:57
Speaker
How do you suggest people kind of consolidate those two? Not only that the person themselves is being honored by their wishes.
00:38:05
Speaker
But at the same time, this concept of the people around are grieving what is going to help them grieve this death. Does that make sense? Like it's such a, it's so complex, right? But then it's like, wait, but I don't want to carry around bones in the back seven years later. That wouldn't feel fulfilling for me, right? But it might be for you. And if that's what the other person wanted, like,
00:38:32
Speaker
What do you think about this topic? I mean, I think this is what I want to explore on my birthday. Like, just think about what's going to be okay for you and for them. So, yeah, in my book, the boy who's deceased had thought about it because he really wanted his remains to be done what genuids do, which is to leave them exposed and to let animals use them in any way they want to.
00:39:01
Speaker
And the family was very kind of traditional. They just wanted to put them in a casket. And the daughter knew her brother's wishes but was completely ignored. But at least nowadays things are getting better in terms of what you're allowed to do. It didn't used to be like this. So I'm always researching it because I just find it so fascinating. Last week I was talking to, they take your cremated remains in Florida
00:39:29
Speaker
and add them to a bunch of stuff and it creates a coral, you know, artificial coral reef. And, and I was saying to them, I really want to write an article about you guys and include you as one of the options, but just cremation alone is horrible for the environment. Really horrible. They still pretty much involve you. That's kind of a normal thing. I don't know why you're about to get
00:39:53
Speaker
cremated why you would involve them before because those are awful chemicals. And then the temperatures that they turn them to all that stuff gets released into the air. So if you have metals in you, which a lot of people do at this point, you know, grab your teeth or artificial knees or whatever, all that stuff, those toxins are getting released into the air, which is horrible. So I say like, you can't some way use the body without, but I just feel like
00:40:19
Speaker
Yeah, the trees that are growing out of these pods from people's bodies are really cool. There's groups making soil that's really interesting. Yeah, I just feel like, yeah. So yeah, it's that part of like, okay, this is what their wishes are. I will follow that. And I guess you just have to find your own
00:40:41
Speaker
maybe other ritual for yourself that brings you comfort in your life as you're honoring the person that guides wishes, right? Because I think there's the body aspect and then there's, yeah, whatever other way you want to mourn and or celebrate or however it is you want to.
00:41:02
Speaker
Now, Martha, so you touched on grief and suicide in this book.
Future Projects and Conservation Efforts
00:41:09
Speaker
What is the next novel that is brewing? Is there any other project or novel that's brewing in your gut and brain? So a lot of people have written to me to say, really want to see where Bean goes next.
00:41:30
Speaker
Does she continue on? Does she have a romance? What happens with her? But I think I'm done. I think I'm done with that story and where it has to go. Maybe not forever, but for right now. Something I've been thinking about recently is having a novel called, If Beds Could Talk, and it would be different beds from different eras around the world and the conversations that took place while people were in the bed. Because I just think,
00:41:59
Speaker
You know, they say like you're, you're most honest when you're horizontal to someone you're speaking. So you're not picking up facial cues. Like when you're driving in a car with your spouse or whatever, you have the most honest conversations because you didn't just see that frown that would make you like, okay, then I'm not going to talk about this. Cause obviously he's already mad about something, whatever. Um, so I thought it'd be interesting. Like if the feds could.
00:42:25
Speaker
be listening to us and what they would report about what was being said in bed. Because I think all sorts of things can happen. Like, you know, especially if it was like a hotel or something. So you've gotten away and you get away because something happened or you're celebrating something. It's something terrible. You know, just I think there can be a lot to explore.
00:42:48
Speaker
That would be so cool. I'm like, all of these ideas make me want to feel like writing. I was like, I don't even know where I would start. But it's like, it's so cool. I like room maybe like bed in room 203. Something like that. And then just going from there of what happens in that.
00:43:09
Speaker
I have also thought about doing more of a memoir piece because my husband's on Wall Street and I have a Wolf Center, so it's like the Wolf and Wall Street's kind of a, let's see. That is great. Martha, is there anything I have not asked you that you would like to share with the audience? Of course, we'll go into the details of how they get their book and all that afterwards. I would like to share that all the book proceeds go to my Wolf Conservation Center. So we are located in our,
00:43:39
Speaker
North of New York City. And we advance the survival of wolves by inspiring a global community through education, advocacy, research, and recovery. We have at any time between 30 and 50 wolves. You can visit us. We see about 30,000 people a year, a lot of students. And we are in part of the breeding and release of the two most critical endangered wolf species, which are red wolves and Mexican ray wolves.
00:44:09
Speaker
Both of them were down to single digits in the 80s, and they got taken into captivity, which started this breeding program that we're a part of. So it's very near and dear to my heart. And my most recent death story was one of my favorite wolves, Zephyr, who's a black wolf, and I've always had this black wolf in my dreams, had to be put down. And I was in the den with the vet who was about to give it a shot, and I was just losing it.
00:44:38
Speaker
The wolves, they die. So I'm like kind of used to death. But there was something about Zephyr that had just touched my heart so much. And the vet looked over me and patted my shoulder and he said, do you know how privileged you are to be with a wolf that's breathing its last breath? And it was like,
00:44:56
Speaker
You're right. I talk about grief to gratitude all the time. I should be celebrating the time that I've been able to spend one-on-one with a wolf. It's pretty unusual. Not many people get to say that they do this. What is their lifespan? Is it similar to a dog? Somewhat similar. In captivity, it's very much like a dog.
00:45:21
Speaker
12 to 15 years out in the wild. It's only like four to six years because they're going after the huge unglitz of the bison, the deer, the elk, the moose, and they've got big hoofs and one wrong hoof is enough to do them in. There's also wolf on wolf aggression and then people killing them. So it's a, yeah, it's pretty tough out in the wild for wolves.
00:45:48
Speaker
Okay. So all the proceeds go. And again, it's called the Wolf Conservation Center. Wolf Conservation Center. And it's in New York. Yes. And it's nywolf.org. We also have amazing live stream videos of all of our wolves. So it's really fun. It's one of the only places that you can see wolves interacting with each other.
00:46:12
Speaker
Oh, so amazing. I will put it on the show notes as well so that people can go and check that out. Martha, thank you again for being here. And now how can people get your book? We know it's on Amazon Barnes and Noble as well. What other ways or on your website? Yeah, I have a bunch of different ways on my website, marthahandler.com. You can learn more about me there. And yeah, it's got like three different buying choices from there.
00:46:40
Speaker
Perfect. Thank you so much. And thanks for being such a joy to chat with and going along with the flow here as I just throw different topics. It's been really fun, Kendra. I really appreciate you inviting me on.
00:46:56
Speaker
I am grateful for you having been on. Again, this was Martha Hunt Handler, am I saying a correct? Yeah. Martha Hunt Handler on the podcast and her book, Winter of the Wolf. Thank you, Martha. You're welcome. Thank you.
00:47:16
Speaker
Thank you again so much for choosing to listen today. I hope that you can take away a few nuggets from today's episode that can bring you comfort in your times of grief. If so, it would mean so much to me if you would rate and comment on this episode. And if you feel inspired in some way to share it with someone who may need to hear this, please do so.
00:47:45
Speaker
Also, if you or someone you know has a story of grief and gratitude that should be shared so that others can be inspired as well, please reach out to me. And thanks once again for tuning into Grief Gratitude and the Gray in Between podcast. Have a beautiful day.