Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
CLASSIC EPISODE: When vegans take things too far
64 Plays18 hours ago
This summer we're revisiting some of our favourite ever episodes of the podcast each Monday whilst we take a few weeks off recording. On Thursdays you can hear new content in our Animal Rights History series. Normal service will be resumed on the 1st September!
CLASSIC EPISODE: Ep#3...When vegans take things too far
Some vegans are getting into the news for the wrong reasons...is it giving us a bad name? And if so, what do we need to do about it? Do people need to be 'cancelled' if they go too far? Or do they just need a big cuddle and someone to listen to them? Ant & Rich have by far their most fiery discussion so far...let's hope they're still on speaking terms next week!
Enough of the Falafel is a community of people who love keeping on top of the latest news in the world of veganism & animal rights. But there's one problem: We've had enough of all the "falafel" out there!
With this podcast, we aim to keep listeners (& ourselves) informed & up-to-date with the latest developments that affect vegans & non-human animals; giving insight, whilst staying balanced; remaining true to our vegan ethics, whilst constantly seeking to grow & develop.
Each week we look through ten of the top news stories from the past 7 days in the world of veganism & animal rights. Afterwards we slow things down & home in on one topic in particular and pick it apart in more detail.
If you spot any news stories that might catch our fancy, or have an idea for a discussion topic, get in touch via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com.
Thanks everyone for listening; give us a rating and drop us a message to say "hi"; it'll make our day!
Ant & Rich
Recommended
Transcript
Summer Hiatus Announcement
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello everyone and welcome to another Enough of the Falafel podcast. We've recorded over 200 of these shows now, all relating to veganism and animal rights.
00:00:14
Speaker
And because of all that hard work, each summer we give ourselves just a few weeks off recording. But don't fret, we're not leaving you in the lurch. You are still going to have twice weekly bits of brilliant content and shows to listen to.
00:00:29
Speaker
They're just going to be a bit different. Coming out on the next few Thursdays are going to be a special history series where Mark and myself look back at some of the lesser reported aspects of animal rights history. And each Monday, we're going to share with you one of our favourite episodes from the Enough of the Falafel Archive, an episode that we've gone back and listened to again and we thought you might enjoy having a second listen to as well. Or maybe you'll be coming across it for the first time.
00:01:02
Speaker
We really hope you enjoy these special shows that we've put together for you, that you're having a great time, whatever you're up to this month while we're having a little bit of time off recording week to week.
00:01:14
Speaker
And normal service will be resumed on the 1st of s September. So sit back and enjoy this special episode from Enough of the Falafel.
Extreme Actions in Veganism: A Double-Edged Sword
00:01:25
Speaker
So I think vegans go looking for trouble even when they're not looking for trouble. That's not what butter's used for. Protein. Take your lab-grown meat elsewhere. We're not doing that in the state of Florida. What about your protein and what about your iron levels? Should I call the media and say, hi, sorry. They're arguing like, all poor woe is me.
00:01:44
Speaker
Hang on a minute. You always pick
00:01:52
Speaker
Okay Anthony, shall move on to this week's discussion topic?
00:01:58
Speaker
long as you don't get they wee bruant with the horns you'll be all right does veganism give him
00:02:09
Speaker
i don't have laser vision okay anthony shall we move on to this week's discussion topic Yeah, yeah, let's let's do it. i think I think it's going to be a fruity one.
00:02:20
Speaker
It's going to be full of full of juice and details. oh I don't know, don't know, let's see. Yeah, so the title of this week's episode is What do We Do When Vegans Take Things Too Far?
00:02:31
Speaker
When i was reading... the article that we covered towards the end of the news section um about this lady who who identifies as vegan, got into a lot of trouble with her neighbours, got into the news for it and is potentially facing jail.
00:02:45
Speaker
My first response was, just internally this is, for goodness sake you silly person, like all the hard work that all of us do to try and advocate for animals to come across as peaceful lovely moderate people that are not extremists blah blah blah and you're just throwing all of that work away because you're getting into the newspaper for being an unreasonable extremist basically and it's it's a thought and a feeling that i have whenever i see something where i think oh that person's crossed a line there they've they've put veganism in a bad light and obviously
00:03:22
Speaker
we all have different limits. We all grade different things as going too far. You know, Rich and I... do not agree on that, ah on on what the limit is and what is too far.
00:03:34
Speaker
And as listeners, you'll be the same. And as people who aren't vegan, they will also have have a limit as to what they think is pushing things too far. But what I wanted us to discuss and for us all ah to think about is as vegans, what is our response when we think someone has gone too far?
00:03:56
Speaker
Rich, there'll have been instances where something gets in the news or maybe someone you know um as a vegan crosses a line as as far as you're concerned, sort of your judgment as to what is too far.
00:04:10
Speaker
They've done something that you don't agree with. what's What's your thought process? what's What's your response? How do you deal with it? Okay. First of all, this means something different for every single person. Everyone thinks the line is somewhere different. and So it's very subjective.
00:04:27
Speaker
Okay. It's very difficult to know where the line is. And yeah The second thing is we usually attach a behavior to a label. So I don't think that's right because we tend to think but we tend to think it's all all the people in a community behave the same way as one example or one
Media's Influence on Vegan Perceptions
00:04:50
Speaker
person. And that's wrong. That's probably how we wired So, to be honest, it doesn't really anger me if someone crosses the line. It angers me when that means the label gets backlash by the media.
00:05:06
Speaker
but you know But that is happening, isn't it? I mean, we we've seen... either anecdotally from say the news story where there's a ah guy saying, I'm finding it hard to get a date now because no one wants to date vegans um or whether they're studies and actually things that are more scientific, like that there is backlash that is happening as as a result of these things.
00:05:27
Speaker
Yeah, there is backlash. There will be backlash everything. um It's just the treatment that the media does because I'm sure there's some interest in, you know, cherry pick those things that can be legal as vegan.
00:05:39
Speaker
I remember we spoke about a few weeks ago about that person that had died in Thailand, I believe it was. And it was very clear that it was vegan raw person dies uh in thailand when when we read the news it wasn't that clear or when we read the story it wasn't that clear that there was a correlation but anyway want to go off topic yeah that that that person can't help that they've died that's not a vegan taking things too far well unless you think they're dying is going too far Yeah, but they didn't choose to.
00:06:11
Speaker
But somebody behaving in an abominable way, um using hate speech or attacking people, um you know, I think the vast majority of us would say that that's going too far and that that is setting the movement back. And if it's setting the movement back, it's harming animals.
00:06:30
Speaker
It's harming animals outcomes. So, like, surely we need to respond. Well, yes, but let me say, following your example, we'd need to know if there's any mental issues, because if not, also we would say that that's not fault of their own, so they didn't have a choice.
00:06:48
Speaker
So that, you know... Yeah, and I'd like to come on to that later as well, because I think that's certainly the case. No, sorry, I mustn't say certainly. that There's a very strong chance, in my opinion, that that is the case um for the story we've featured this week.
00:07:05
Speaker
um But let's let's come on to that a bit later. Okay, what I want to try to say or what I want to do is to say, yeah, but for me, probably um taking things too far means things that do not help the movement.
00:07:20
Speaker
Unfortunately, we do not have a unified movement. Yeah, we have a lot of voices and think we're doing great things and we're moving forward. But yeah, you will always have things that are perceived as the mass crossing the line.
00:07:34
Speaker
But maybe crossing the line, you know, could be if I if i get a laptop and I go into a city center and I show pictures of what happens in a slaughterhouse, is that crossing
Counterproductive Behaviors in Advocacy
00:07:44
Speaker
the line?
00:07:44
Speaker
I don't think so. I'm just showing the reality, you know. I know this case is different, but I would like to move away from this particular case when we discuss, you know, the broader, what the broader thing of crossing the line is.
00:07:57
Speaker
ah Yeah, i when when I'm making this the title of the show, I'm not necessarily wanting to discuss things where there's divided opinion, where it's like 50-50 as to whether some people think that's acceptable and other people think it's going too far because I think otherwise you're just you're just debating like philosophical value judgments.
00:08:19
Speaker
What I'm talking about is instances where 99% of people or more think that it's it's taken things too far, that it's harming the movement.
00:08:31
Speaker
and And they're the examples of where I think we need to think about how we're responding. Yeah. Well, let me say, first of all, i do not believe in percentages in when it comes to this.
00:08:42
Speaker
ah Sorry, but probably 85 or 90% of people will think I'm crossing the line just because 90% of people eat animals, you know? ah so okay fine, fine. Make it of vegans then.
00:08:56
Speaker
99% of vegans, if 99% of vegans think that someone's actions are harming the movement, then Is there not an argument that something needs to be said or done?
00:09:11
Speaker
For example, like, let's... Yes, but we don't know that beforehand. We don't know what helps or not the movement. And what I mean is... Okay, can I give you an example? Okay. Yeah, go ahead. and And there have been examples of this, right?
00:09:22
Speaker
There have been people who have been in prominent positions or even the leaders of animal rights organisations. So organisations, charities who advocate on behalf of animals.
00:09:34
Speaker
And they've been shown to be hideously sexist all racist or or carrying out their activities in a way that is exploiting vulnerable people.
00:09:46
Speaker
OK, that's not acceptable. That's like something has to be done about that because we cannot be seen to be condoning that sort of behavior. And unfortunately, in some instances, people have tried to hush it up.
00:09:58
Speaker
um For the sake of the animal rights movement, that's not okay. Like we have to distance ourselves. Okay. So there's When things like that happen, we have to act we have to do something about it Like it doesn't doesn't matter that we're arguing amongst ourselves or things like that.
00:10:15
Speaker
We have to do something about it Okay, so that's a really extreme but real case Yeah, you'd accept that we have to do something there. Yeah Yes, and that comes down to speciesism, because that's the mother of all the isms, right?
00:10:29
Speaker
So I truly believe that when you're vegan, if you truly embrace an abolitionist approach, and you believe that speciesism is what probably starts everything, all the other isms should go away. i mean, you can't, you shouldn't be speciesist.
00:10:47
Speaker
Sorry? But they don't know. like he They don't. Recent history tells us that it doesn't. so So we have to call people out on these things.
00:10:59
Speaker
Like, we have Yes. Yeah? Yes, we have to. But let me backtrack a second because we're getting carried out here on... We we are highlighting the bad things that vegans are doing.
00:11:10
Speaker
Okay? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, i i i I would like to move away from here. Just let me say that for me, crossing the line, in my opinion, crossing the line is whenever there's harassment or there's violence ah mentally or physically.
00:11:26
Speaker
So for me, that's crossing the line. yeah and It doesn't really matter if you're vegan. That's in everything in life. OK, I think the problem here is, yes, all the We need to be a united movement. Yeah, we need to be perfect.
00:11:40
Speaker
I know that. Because if not, we'll be cherry-picked. um We need to highlight when someone doesn't behave in a normal way. Having said that... but so so So do you think that we we do need it then? So like um what I'm getting here is a clear understanding of of like what crossing the line is for you. And you mentioned like harassment and let's say let's say violence.
00:12:02
Speaker
yeah Yes. Let me rephrase that in saying any form that does not show respect to another person, I'd like to push that further to living being. But let yeah let's keep it in persons because I know we're talking about persons.
00:12:17
Speaker
Anything that shows disrespect for that person, that includes obviously harassment, all the isms, that for me yeah it's crossing the line. okay. okay So can we pause? So can we pause?
00:12:28
Speaker
So we've got that definition for you. Okay. what What do you do then? What do you do? So when when you have that feeling that someone's crossed the line, like ah the line as you set it for you, and everyone's line is different, when someone crosses that line, like, what do you do?
00:12:45
Speaker
Listen, how many million vegans are we? There's one person that crosses the line. i know the media will be all over the place. Should I call the media and say, hi, sorry, that person didn't mean it. ah That person does not represent me.
00:12:58
Speaker
Okay, so if... If somebody does something unspeakable in the name of veganism, right? And none of us say ah we disagree with this.
00:13:11
Speaker
Like this person is is going too far. This doesn't represent veganism, what they're doing. If no one says anything, that silence speaks quite loudly, doesn't it? That silence is saying, well, we actually all agree with what they did.
00:13:27
Speaker
ah The thing is, I try to think of people. i don't i Obviously, some behaviors cannot be condoned or cannot be you know ah exempt of responsibility. Everyone needs to be accountable. But normally, I think, instead of thinking, oh, that person, what a behavior, I think the behavior is a reflection of the pain or from some things that go inside.
00:13:49
Speaker
Absolutely. Let me elaborate on that. So,
Responding to Extremism with Support and Strategy
00:13:52
Speaker
yes, I i know where you're coming from. i know where you're coming from. But by that logic, I think, for example, Animal Rising are doing doing an incredible job.
00:14:01
Speaker
They're brave people, putting themselves down the line. They have achieved many things. They do it through non-violent ah civil disobedience.
00:14:13
Speaker
yeah That's not causing any harm to anyone. Under my view. Under my view. I know for many people, they will say, yeah, they're doing this to me or they're disrupting. I think they're doing, you know, a very fair thing.
00:14:28
Speaker
Yeah. So under under the kind of definition that we set earlier, I would say less than 99% of vegans... would say that they're crossing a line. Some vegans will say, no, they shouldn't do that, even though it is peaceful, it's stopping people going to work or whatever. But actually, like, there's enough of us who kind of think, yeah, I think that's i think that's all right, actually, that's fine. And for me, that's not the stuff I'm talking about.
00:14:52
Speaker
I'm talking about where like, almost everyone is saying, this is really bad, you should not be doing that. That is setting that movement back. Like we're pretty much all in agreement that's setting the movement back.
00:15:05
Speaker
like that's when i'm questioning what do we do yeah but we are falling in the trap honestly we are falling in the trap because what it means li is is how many people that are not vegan behave in a way that is just horrendous how many how many guess so i don't know what you mean I mean that somehow by the article we've read and by having this discussion, we what we're doing is we're having an internal debate, if you will, about vegans and how do we need to behave, um what's crossing the line, what do we do with the people that cross the line without thinking, okay, the problem is not us crossing the line.
00:15:52
Speaker
The problem is we're having a discussion about how we should behave about people, you know, ah and I don't mean this for the population, but by a behavior some ah sometimes for no fault of their own that's driving the earth to extinction, that's causing climate change and the suffering of 85 million billion land animals.
00:16:15
Speaker
And we're saying, oh, what should we do? Because one person maybe has not behaved and has crossed the line. And because of that person, the 85 billion land animals have been left and attended.
00:16:26
Speaker
We're ashamed. No, come on. let's and put let's put Let's put the discussion where it should be, which is like, why why don't we feature that in the media? Why don't we feature all the cruelty and abuse? And maybe think, okay, well, maybe we need to rethink about what's crossing the line.
00:16:44
Speaker
Yeah, okay. So there's two different things there. So the the mass ah ignoring or not changing lifestyles quick enough to save the planet, that's that's crossing a line, but actually it's it's understandable why it's happening. I don't agree with it, but like that if if we if we learn from psychology,
00:17:08
Speaker
we can understand why people are not changing quickly enough and they need to but we can understand it, okay? What I'm talking about... Agreed.
00:17:19
Speaker
We agree in one thing. a Right, now let's quickly move on. What I'm talking about in terms of one person behaving in an extreme way that undermines the integrity of the vegan movement.
00:17:33
Speaker
Number one, I want to be clear. When people are doing that, it's very often because they're feeling misanthropic, they're feeling despair, they're feeling alone, they're feeling not understood.
00:17:43
Speaker
And I'm actually, I advocate for... us putting an arm around them and and saying, come on, let's like let let me listen to you. Let me listen to what you're going through. Actually, I think that would solve 90% these things.
00:17:57
Speaker
Okay, so number one, I'm not trying to vilify people. I'm not trying to vilify people, but if we want a vegan movement to be effective, we've surely got to recognize how quickly the media jumps on negative PR like this.
00:18:16
Speaker
And actually what we can do, number one, to prevent it happening in the first place. And number two, when it does happen, if If we just say, well, at least they're not killing animals and and ruining the planet.
00:18:28
Speaker
um So actually, I'm with this person who has just abused their neighbor. like By the way, I have not stated that. Just to make it clear, I have not stated that. No, no, no. I know you haven't. I know you haven't. But what I'm saying is.
00:18:43
Speaker
um not have I'm not saying that vegans are awful and like any time we make a mistake, it's terrible and and we should be ashamed of ourselves. I'm just saying it's like the the question is like, what do we do when vegans take it too far? Like if pretty much everyone is in agreement that someone has done something that is going too far, I think it's important that we...
Unity and Growth in the Vegan Movement
00:19:06
Speaker
give some some consideration to how we respond. And one response, like i say, one response is is actually putting an arm around that person and like saying, like you okay? like it It seems like you're really upset at the moment. like You're lashing out at your next door neighbor for for an inconsequential thing. like Come on, let me...
00:19:27
Speaker
Let me listen to what you're going through. Like, that's one thing. But also, we surely we've got to, like, if asked, we've got to say, yeah, I'm i'm not down with that.
00:19:39
Speaker
I don't agree with that. That's taken things a bit far, in my opinion. Surely we've got to. Yeah, I mean, we we can't harass people. As I said, for me, crossing the line is whenever there's form of violence against the person, that there's, you know, no respect and all this.
00:19:56
Speaker
But again, we fall into the trap. Can you imagine? I mean, how many people worldwide go to New York? Surely some tourist has got robbed, you know, or stabbed in New York.
00:20:08
Speaker
Therefore, is that, you know, are all New Yorkans bad for society? you know, in terms of the perception of people, like, would you not go to New York because someone got robbed?
00:20:21
Speaker
No, but you so you're talking about stereotypes, right? Yeah. and Oh, absolutely. I mean, yeah let me say, again, i'm I'm going to repeat myself to death. I do not support any thought of violence towards any person, towards any living being.
00:20:39
Speaker
We should have respect for all another. And yes, these things happen happened among vegans, non-vegans, you know, in any aspect of life.
00:20:50
Speaker
you will have people that cross a line, and crossing a line is different for everyone. So that's why we have laws. So make sure when someone crosses the line, they're certainly in some way accountable.
00:21:02
Speaker
But we have, as vegans, a very big stereotype that we've built up throughout the years, and that's why we are known as Angry Vegans, as um you name it, you know, that's a vegan.
00:21:15
Speaker
That's why a 10-year-old makes jokes about vegans, and that's why they believe, you know, uh who what's best for society well uh sorry what who wins society yeah that's the image so but that's a stereotype and as human beings we should have less stereotypes how we change that well probably the way moving forward is just you know being a compassionate Be more aware of the differences between people. Like how many times have you heard, oh Germans are this way or Americans, Argentinians, Spanish.
00:21:51
Speaker
How many times I've heard people say, oh, Spanish, paella, toros. No, no, mate. No, I do not like toros. And I do not like paella, you know. yeah So what we're discussing is really a stereotype.
00:22:03
Speaker
That's what discussing. And yeah, there's always people that will do a disservice. The bad thing about it is the media picks it because there's an interest. There's an interest to stop veganism.
00:22:16
Speaker
Yeah, i so that's definitely a big thing too. But I think that a lot of vegans, their first reaction or in the first few months of being vegan...
00:22:28
Speaker
um you've kind of taken the red pill or the blue pill or whatever the analogy is, and you've seen the world in a different way. And very often your first response, one of your first responses is to broadcast that to anyone who will listen.
00:22:43
Speaker
you You try and persuade your family, your friends, ah your coworkers or whatever, you try and do that. And generally speaking, what happens then is that we experience an apathy or or not quite the response from those people that we would hope for.
00:23:03
Speaker
And then what we do is we tone down what we're saying and we become a bit more selective and a bit more strategic because we get feedback that actually this raw way of just blurting it out is not actually what is most effective. And if it's not most effective for convincing people, it is not most effective for animals.
00:23:25
Speaker
And that's that's where I'm coming from here in that, yeah, it's we we shouldn't have stereotypes and the media shouldn't do things like that.
00:23:35
Speaker
But actually, what is most effective for the animals is us being efficient and strategic about what we're doing. And actually,
00:23:47
Speaker
I'm going to say what I think is strategic for us as a movement is to recognise that sometimes quite vulnerable people are attracted to our movement because it's nice and simple. It's very welcoming.
00:24:00
Speaker
um All you've got to do is you say you love animals and then you're open you're welcome with open arms. um random strangers will say, oh, you're brilliant, you're vegan too, fantastic, oh yeah, you'll be my mate, add you on Facebook and what have you.
00:24:13
Speaker
and And all of a sudden, quite vulnerable people have got a community, which is lovely, but... the simplicity of the message can then result in people saying very extreme things without really understanding the nuance of, if you're gonna yell in someone's face, like that is taking things too far,
00:24:36
Speaker
And that's, in my opinion, and that's not going to be effective and that's going to lose us a lot of votes of approval and that's going to build into a stereotype. And so I think being strategic about things, what we need to do is we need to acknowledge that that vulnerable people are out there or that, do you know what?
00:24:55
Speaker
We're all vulnerable when we're vegan because the world's not vegan and so it upsets us and it can send us mad. And I'm sure many people like their acts of... extremism for want of a better of word are because the the non-vegan world is driving them slightly mad and they're behaving in an erratic way and I think we need to recognise that be be aware of it look out for it before it goes too far before people start blowing themselves up in the name of veganism or shouting in their neighbours faces saying right you carnist scum or whatever we need to be aware of that and and catch it before it happens
00:25:32
Speaker
um but Because otherwise we're not being as effective as we could be as a movement. Does that make any sense? It does make sense. But I feel like we've been talking about two different things. But let me put it let me put it all together.
00:25:47
Speaker
So, for example, tailored to what you're saying, yes, I think we need to be a more united movement. We're not at the moment. yeah As individuals, we need to be our best. Yes, I know.
00:25:58
Speaker
That's not the case because there's a lot of pain and suffering and we all have problems. But... Okay, if we need to find the solution or if we need, how are ways, what ways do we have to improve ourselves? Well, first of all, um I want to say that Melanie Joy has a great platform.
00:26:17
Speaker
She does courses. I've done some courses from her or this platform. It's called SIVA which is the Centre for Effective Vegan Advocacy and it's just not only it's about how you can be more effective but it's also about how to sustain your mental well-being and how to cope with a world that's not vegan so I think yeah we need to think about what ourselves first put our oxygen mask and then therefore we'll be able to help others yelling to people is never good it's never good that's why I still don't understand how the British Parliament works yeah it's awful isn't it oh my god
00:26:52
Speaker
and and And can I say, like am I interrupting you, Rich? du Go ahead, go ahead. ah I'll finish later. yeah So the British Parliament is a really good example because when I see footage of that, I'm embarrassed of British democracy. I'm embarrassed to be British when I see the way that people conduct themselves there.
00:27:13
Speaker
And that's a prime example of it, I think. Like that's admonishable behavior. Like i want to distance myself from it. And I want people to know that I distance myself from it. Because if people think that that's what being British means, no, no, no Like it that to me, that's not what what being British means.
00:27:31
Speaker
Okay, recapping on what I said. Yeah, sorry. Don't worry. I think, you know, we need to look after ourselves. We can live as vegans in a place from a deep, deep pain because the pain we suffer is not the one that's inflicted on ourselves, but the one which we with witness inflicted on others.
00:27:50
Speaker
It's very, very easy to cross the line because the pain we bear is is, you know, I don't want to compare our pain to what the poor animals suffer because obviously they are the receivers of that.
00:28:03
Speaker
ah The pain and the suffering we also carry with us can be quite unbearable. So we need to look after ourselves. We need to do courses like the ones from from Melanie Joy at the Center for Effective Vegan Advocacy, great courses.
00:28:20
Speaker
By the way, I do not, you know, i this is not a commercial. I've done them myself, you know, and I really like them. There's books like Dystopia from Claire Mann that make you, you know, understand what what does it mean to live in a world that's dystopian, you know, as a vegan. So, no, I do not think crossing the line is a good thing.
00:28:41
Speaker
um because, as you say, diminishes our ability as a collective to improve things. Having said that, we are not the problem. We are not the problem.
00:28:53
Speaker
And yes, we need to have a better and more effective advocacy. ah Probably we'll get there. But, you know, stereotypes are a big thing. And there's one more thing that I might interrupt you because I wanted to say and I forgot.
00:29:07
Speaker
Okay, Rich, we need to wrap things up. Otherwise, it's going to take you all day to edit this episode. um yes at Yesterday, last week, we had our final points.
00:29:18
Speaker
I made one and you made three. And I was very bitter about this. Okay. So we're going to... Let's meet halfway. We can each make two points.
00:29:29
Speaker
to to summarize the takeaway points from ah from this discussion. You can go first. Can I break the point down? No, you can't. ah No, no, I'll cut you off.
00:29:41
Speaker
Okay, if I'm allowed two points, who goes first? do why Should I go first? You go first this time. Okay. I just would like to say that, one, crossing the line is something different for everyone.
00:29:53
Speaker
Everyone will get offended at some point. Sometimes you don't mean to offend someone, but someone will get offended no matter... what do you do. I know it's not the case of what the news article we discussed that triggered this discussion, but yeah, Ricky Gervais usually he he annoys many people, ah and offensive or not.
00:30:16
Speaker
I mean, yeah, you always will offend someone. We might be offending someone now you know let's hope so so yeah what crossing the line is will be different for me it's when you uh do any act that's not respectful and therefore has implicit or explicit violence towards uh mentally or physically for me that's crossing the line okay and what what should we do about it Well, I don't believe in
Community Engagement and Feedback
00:30:44
Speaker
stereotypes. We shouldn't put every community, every ah identity, every group in the you know in the hands of the behavior of one person. We need to have the abstract capability of thinking of every individual forming part of a group as different.
00:30:59
Speaker
And therefore, some people will not represent what the the the collective represents. So we need to be very careful stereotyping people tailored to this, which is the last second point, okay, will be that we need to look after ourselves. We need to really um be aware of the pain we can carry by being vegan, take some courses, read some books, have some mates, have some friends.
00:31:26
Speaker
And maybe between all of us and through some courses and reading, we can find a better way of effective advocacy. Thank you, Rich. So I think my my concluding points would be that um I do think it is important that there is a response if we perceive that that somebody is very clearly crossing the line and is associated with the vegan movement, because I think...
00:31:52
Speaker
the effectiveness of the vegan movement affects animals. Like there's a direct correlation between the two. There's a causality between how strong the vegan movement is and the effect it has on innocent sentient beings.
00:32:05
Speaker
So I think if there's something that happens that brings veganism into disrepute, there needs to be some sort of response or if it risks happening, Maybe it's a smaller response, but I do think there needs to be a response.
00:32:18
Speaker
But my second point would be the best kind of response is for us to be the most inclusive, welcoming, but also sensitive and caring and nurturing community so that we can avoid people getting into a position where they feel so misanthropic, they feel so disenchanted with the world and the way that it is that they are perhaps likely to do or say something that is aggressive, that is disrespectful, that is violent, and that they become the kinds of things that can bring our movement into disrepute. So I think prevention is better than responding.
00:32:59
Speaker
And that's what I'd have to say. Sorry, I wasn't listening. Could you rep repeat that? Shut up. So a question to all of you listening right now. What do you think about this? What do you think about the discussions that we have, the points that we've done?
00:33:13
Speaker
um Would you suggest something different? Do you have a different view? Yeah, let us know. i remember do you think And do you think that Rich made two points at the end or was it actually 22? um Remember, this post podcast isn't just about Anthony and myself. We're a collective, we're a community, and we'd absolutely love to hear your voices too.
00:33:33
Speaker
Enough of the falafel at gmail.com is the place to send your thoughts, questions, comments, and concerns regarding any of the news stories or anything else we've covered this in this week's episode.
00:33:49
Speaker
This has been an Enough of the Falafel production. We're just a normal bunch of everyday vegans putting our voices out there. The show is hosted by Zencaster. We use music and special effects by zapsplap.com.
00:34:04
Speaker
And sometimes, if you're lucky, at the end of an episode, you'll hear a poem by Mr Dominic Berry. Thanks all for listening and see you next time.
00:34:30
Speaker
This episode may have come to an end, but did you know we've got a whole archive containing all our shows dating back to September 2023? twenty twenty three That is right, Dominic. There's over 100 episodes on there featuring our brilliant range of different guests, people's stories of going vegan, philosophical debates, moral quandaries, and of course...
00:34:51
Speaker
around a dozen news items from around the world each week so check back on your podcast player to hear previous episodes and remember to get an alert for each new episode simply click like or follow and also subscribe to the show thanks for your ongoing support wherever you listen to us from