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221- Does the animal rights movement need a reboot?
106 Plays15 days ago
Project Phoenix (https://www.project-phoenix.org.uk/about) want to "build the power of the animal freedom movement in the UK into an unstoppable force for change". Hard to disagree with that. What is perhaps more controversial are their assertions that what has been lacking until now has been cohesion and collective power. In this episode, Julie, Dominic, Mark & Ant discuss whether the movement has lost its edge, and indeed whether it is even possible to organise a bunch of vegan activists!
In the discussion we refer to the following article: https://projectphoenixuk.substack.com/p/have-we-lost-our-nerve-as-a-movement
As ever, we love hearing your views on the topics under discussion (or anything else!) so do drop us your thoughts via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com
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Enough of the Falafel is a community of people who love keeping on top of the latest news in the world of veganism & animal rights. With the Vegan Talk podcast, we aim to develop listeners' (& our own) thoughts around key issues affecting veganism & the animal rights movement; giving our opinions, whilst staying balanced; remaining true to our vegan ethics, whilst constantly seeking to grow & develop.
Each week we home in on one topic in particular and pick it apart in more detail. If you have a suggestion for a future show, do get in touch via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com.
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Mark, Julie, Dominic & Anthony
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Transcript
Introduction to Vegan Talk
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello everybody. Now, does the animal rights movement need a revamp, possibly even a rebirth? Well, I'm Anthony, and for this episode, I'm going to talk about these things with Mark, Julie, and Dominic.
00:00:15
Speaker
So I think vegans go looking for trouble even when they're not looking for trouble. That's not what butter's used Brrr! Take your flat grown meat elsewhere. We're not doing that in the state of Florida.
00:00:27
Speaker
What about your protein and what about your iron levels? Should I call the media and say, hi, sorry? They're arguing like, oh, poor woe is me. Hang on a minute. You always pick the
00:00:42
Speaker
Hello everyone, you are listening Mark welcome to episode of Vegan Talk.
00:00:49
Speaker
as she't get they wee bruant with a horns she'll be all right does veganism give him
00:01:00
Speaker
don't have laser vision hello everyone you are listening to mark and welcome to this episode of vegan talk Hello everybody, Julie here.
What is Project Phoenix?
00:01:09
Speaker
Vegan Talk is our show where we take a bit of a deeper look at an issue connected with veganism and animal rights and if you're interested, if you have a look where you get your podcasts from, you'll see in your feed that we've done loads of these episodes and And they don't really go out of date, really. So whatever topic takes your fancy, you can have a wee scroll back through the the previous episodes and I'm sure you'll find something interesting there.
00:01:42
Speaker
Indeed, indeed. Hello everyone, my name is Dominic and Anthony's talk about potential revamps or rebirth of animal rights movements comes from us deciding to discuss Project Phoenix.
00:02:01
Speaker
That's our focus for today. So Anthony, What is Project Phoenix?
Mission and Vision of Project Phoenix
00:02:09
Speaker
Well, I'll do my best, Dominic. I had not heard about it until it was suggested by, oh, I think it was Carlos suggested we have a look at Project Phoenix, but apologies if it was someone else.
00:02:20
Speaker
So I've been doing my research along with Dominic, Julie and Mark. Maybe some listeners will already know. far as we can work out, they've been founded in the last 12 to 18 months or so, judging by the dates on their policies and their actions and things like this.
00:02:35
Speaker
So their mission, in their own words, is to build the power of the animal freedom movement in the UK into an unstoppable force for change. And their vision is a world where every animal can thrive in freedom and dignity. Well, that that sounds really positive, but that doesn't necessarily sound any different to a lot of organisations, one could argue.
00:03:01
Speaker
They go on to say that they exist because despite progress that the UK animal freedom movement has made, Project Phoenix feel like the movement needs greater cohesion and collective power to become an effective force for change for the animals.
Addressing Fragmentation in Animal Rights
00:03:19
Speaker
They talk about national NGOs, so kind of, you know, not-for-profit organisations focusing on policy and corporate progress, but they're not necessarily the most responsive to events that happen. And in fact, if you look elsewhere in their literature on their website, they will cite several things that have happened in in sort of relating to animal rights. So
00:03:43
Speaker
The listeners might remember that the killing of Cecil the lion in 2015 and the opportunity that that had for advocating on behalf of animals, the amount of uproar that there was that a lion had been killed. Lots of people getting upset despite the fact they probably can...
00:03:58
Speaker
continue to eat animals themselves. Animal Rising's 2024 RSPCA investigation, several events where these could be catalysts for change, but according to Project Phoenix, these things were not capitalized on enough.
00:04:14
Speaker
um So they say that they are building local organizing and campaigning power, strengthening the movement's strategic coordination, and reshaping cultural narratives to shift public opinion and create the conditions for systemic change, which I think probably we would agree, as as vegans, so we would want to see.
Meet the Founders of Project Phoenix
00:04:35
Speaker
In terms of who they are, and on their website, they they cite three people who are founders and directors of the project. So that's Dr. Lila Kassam, Tom Harris, and Natalie Brain. They've got an advisory panel who include Hilary Jones, who is ah the ethics director for Lush Cosmetics, and Matthew Glover, who we've mentioned several times on the show, founder of Veganuary, founder of Vegan Fried Chicken, amongst other excellent initiatives. I do like Matthew Glover.
00:05:06
Speaker
In terms of things they have done already, ah obviously listeners do follow the link um in our show notes to to have a look at these things themselves. But you might remember we reported on probably about a year ago, the For Charlie campaign, which was a movement-wide campaign demanding that the RSPCA dissociate from its assured scheme.
00:05:28
Speaker
um They were behind this For Charlie campaign. um They've also done lots of other work in terms of The MBR suppliers, so the the Beagles at MBR, the campaign there, Dorset Animal Action and World Day for Animals in Laboratories.
00:05:45
Speaker
Project Phoenix hasn't necessarily created all of these, but they've they've been involved in campaigns towards it.
Strategic Focus of Project Phoenix
00:05:52
Speaker
And they have also got three core programs. ah So the Animal Freedom Network, which is building local power, but nationally connected.
00:06:01
Speaker
a mass leadership development, growing skilled strategic organizers, and a campaign lab fueling strategic high impact campaigns. So you're starting to hear similar phrases and themes here. there's There's more to be said about their work and there's some really interesting blog articles that we've we've taken a look at a few of them, but we've heard enough of my voice.
00:06:25
Speaker
Let's hear what others have got to say and and make of Project Phoenix. Dominic, are you happy to kick us off here? What what are your initial impressions of their work and and also of the concept that the animal rights movement needs a bit of a a reboot, arguably?
Dominic on Vegan Unity and Approach
00:06:43
Speaker
I don't know. i The older I get, the more confident I am in saying i don't know. i believe that i have become softer in my approach to veganism.
00:06:58
Speaker
I am 46. When I was in my 30s, I was very confrontational with speaking about veganism.
00:07:08
Speaker
And having been on the receiving end of confrontation, that is what made me go vegan. I did not go vegan from people speaking gently to me.
00:07:19
Speaker
However, yeah, I don't know, I kind of feel maybe I'm one of the people that Project Phoenix would say are a little bit like wet behind the ears because I have seen the negative impacts of you know some people responding i think times change don't they times change and how people react to different information evolves and I don't know where we're currently at I fear that at its worst, it could be a situation of people quarrelling with people, vegans quarrelling with vegans and us all being united is a good thing.
00:08:00
Speaker
It's like, you know, we've got enough to fight against without having a go at each other. So that's my fear that it could turn into that. but I could probably do with a bit of a kick up the bum to make me a little bit more with the veganism. So yeah, maybe that'll happen as a result of our podcast.
00:08:20
Speaker
Yeah, indeed.
Coordination Challenges in Animal Rights
00:08:22
Speaker
Julie, that there there is this argument that they make in one of their most recent blogs that actually we need to make sure our ask as a movement is is strong and pure and is not softened down.
00:08:35
Speaker
But a big part of what they are also advocating for at Project Phoenix is things being more coordinated and that can be tricky can't it? What's been your initial response to the message behind the organisation?
00:08:49
Speaker
Well I think they're right in saying that a bit of coordination would be helpful. We do have quite a few similar seeming animal rights organisations in the UK certainly I'm not talking across the world I don't know enough about all the ones that are across the world but in my little patch of the world in the UK We do have Animal Aid, Animal Justice Project, Animal Rising, just to name a few off the top my head. And sometimes it can be hard to know who to donate to, who to support, whose emails to respond to and get involved in their campaigns. Peter, there's another one.
00:09:30
Speaker
So my inbox is full of these organisations. And yeah, sometimes because there's so many of them, it can lead you to not do stuff occasionally because you just say, oh, my goodness, you know, think I've signed that petition from somebody else already. I'm not sure.
00:09:47
Speaker
So it would be great to coordinate all that and to really just have person. organization to answer to and to respond to and campaign along with.
00:09:58
Speaker
It'll never happen because they won't shut these other ones down but I think that's a
Criticism of Reducitarianism
00:10:04
Speaker
good thing. I think so and in answer to the other kind of query that's coming up out of this, yes I think that generally, again, in my sort of experience, I am seeing reducitarianism getting flaunted as being somehow more virtuous than being vegan.
00:10:29
Speaker
And I am sick to death of hearing that from people. It Endures because it makes some people and it makes some people who own particular types of businesses feel very good in themselves. So that's why it's enduring.
00:10:44
Speaker
And yes, it is watering down the whole veganism argument and thing. And i'm I don't like when I see that at all. You're absolutely correct, Julian. And I'll be honest, I've become guilty of that back in the day. If someone was saying they were eating free range eggs, I would very politely say, well, that's no good for the male chicks, is it? Or just like one little gentle. of thing and i have been guilty of being like you know oh you know that's a good thing you know like yeah yeah i i am i am guilty we're encouraged to do that we're encouraged to be nice vegan oh yeah oh she's a nice vegan because she's really moderate and really tolerant and really that you know i mean but when you are really moderate and really tolerant
00:11:34
Speaker
you are tolerating animal abuse. It's not about tolerating the people. I don't hate on the people at all, but I will always hate on animal abuse and and I will always gently talk about the animals that are unseen in that conversation and you know the male chicks that are killed or whatever but it's not a personal attack on the person at all it's on the industry but yeah to do otherwise is to do a disservice but yeah there are people my brother's one of them
00:12:09
Speaker
yeah no matter how gentle and how much you direct your criticism at the industry, at the action of these, you know, perpetrators, will hear you're a bad person, you know, out of that conversation because they feel bad in themselves.
00:12:26
Speaker
I haven't made that happen. I haven't said that, but they have done that to themselves in the light of the evidence or whatever. But yeah, we are getting...
00:12:38
Speaker
We're pressured to behave ourselves and pipe down and shut up a bit and be nicey-nicey and tolerant. and And when people say, oh, well, do you know what?
History and Challenges of Grassroots Movements
00:12:52
Speaker
I went out to a restaurant and, oh, do you know what? I had the vegan dish the other day. And, you know, it wasn't absolutely disgusting and didn't make me want to vomit. Yeah.
00:13:03
Speaker
oh good for you that's brilliant you know one nail out of however many hundreds you should stuff down your face of mushed up and so i know um i feel like that the way our conversation is going at the moment um particularly pertains to i've mentioned it already that the most recent as we record this is ah blog article by Project Phoenix, which is called Have We Lost Our Nerve as a Movement. Definitely recommend listeners have a read of that one. It's not too long a read.
00:13:36
Speaker
What's interesting though, Mark, is that whilst well that's one angle of Project Phoenix's work, that that the main things that we get through through looking at their you know, their mission and their about us and here's our work, is that it's all about being coordinated. And regular listeners will know episode 184, Carlos and myself talked about, well, is there even such a thing as a vegan movement? Because by its definition, it's quite an anarchic thing to be going against the dominant culture and being vegan and not going along with what people were saying. So actually having a coordinated animal rights movement is arguably a contradiction in terms. It's certainly not something that's straightforward to achieve, is it?
00:14:18
Speaker
Tom Harris and the other people involved in Project Phoenix, they they came out of the what was called at the time the grassroots animal rights movements that were really prolific in the 80s and 90s, particularly in the UK.
00:14:31
Speaker
and There were some in Ireland as well, and they were made up of small groups of of locals who were campaigning on some local issues and some bigger issues. And then every so often they would get together for a massive animal rights march or a massive demonstration against the ah lab or something like this.
00:14:46
Speaker
What happened to end all that, or not to end it, but certainly to the stimmy, it was a mass infiltration of spies by the police and the state and the corporations and huge prison set sentences that were handed down to the likes of Keith Mann and people like that who who who were getting up to 14 years in prison for actions that they were doing. So and between massive state oppression and massive infiltration,
00:15:11
Speaker
the grassroots movement, which did pose a threat to the industries, was not shut down, but severely curtailed. And that happened around the start of the of the two thousand It culminated in the Stop Huntington and Animal Cruelty Shack campaign, which was enormously successful and would have shut the lab down four or five times over if the state hadn't stepped in to financially back it. And that was subject to massive infiltration as well.
00:15:37
Speaker
And if you've ever wondered what the what sort of personality would infiltrate an animal rights movement or an environmental movement to snitch on them, ah few days ago, Jess, I was reading in the newspaper about a guy called Edward Gratwick.
00:15:53
Speaker
And this was a man who was spying on animal rights groups and environmental groups, particularly at Newbury Bypass during the 90s. He was stopped at Stansted Airport. ah recently on his way to rape a 12 year old Romanian that he had arranged with the the girl's mother.
00:16:10
Speaker
He was described by the police themselves as one of the most depraved pedophiles. When they raided his house, they found all sorts of disturbing images on his phone and his computer and a history of really sinister acts against children.
00:16:24
Speaker
He was one of the main infiltrators spying on the Newbury bypass and animal rights groups in that area at the time. The police were paying him, a depraved pedophile, to spy on people like us in order to stop what we were doing. So this is what we're up against and stuff by behaviour like that. And he he was just one of hundreds of corporate and police infiltrators who had infiltrated all sorts of animal rights, including a group that I was involved in. I met some of these people thinking that they were genuine vegan activists.
00:16:54
Speaker
They were spying on me and my friends as we were talking to them. They were recording everything that we were saying. This is what we're up against when we're when when we take on the forces of animal abuse. They will do anything. They employ anyone, including the most depraved pedophiles in society, to work against us.
00:17:09
Speaker
This and and massive prison sentences that were handed down to Barry Horn, who got 17 years of in prison. It was stuff like that that that stopped the al ride and the grassroots animal rights movement in their tracks and the reason the state was so concerned about this was because the grassroots movements were highly effective One of the reasons they were highly effective is because it's really hard to sue a group of ragtag locals as opposed to an organization like Greenpeace.
00:17:32
Speaker
And legal warfare, or a lawfare as it's called, is familiar tactic used by the likes of Shell and so on to stop the likes of Greenpeace from going ahead with their actions under threat of being sued out of existence. It's really hard to sue an essentially penniless grassroots animal rights movement out of existence, so just on the practicalities of it. So Around the the turn of this century, around the early 2000s, those groups were halted in their tracks by massive state repression and in and and the infiltration.
Reviving Grassroots Activism
00:18:03
Speaker
And what a Project Phoenix is trying to do is to resurrect those groups. There were hundreds of them around the UK, I think about 300 at its peak in the eighty s and 90s. all campaigning in their in their local areas, sometimes coming together, but typically just doing local work in local areas against forms of animal abuse. As I say, it was highly effective. It was involving lots and lots of people. There was many tens of thousands involved.
00:18:25
Speaker
They were doing it on a shoestring budget, but but they managed to be highly effective. So there was a reason why the state were interested in in in seeing this go away by any means necessary, which was their actual tagline. when they were sending in spies, their tagline of the special demonstration squad was, by any means necessary, we will shut you down, whatever it takes.
00:18:42
Speaker
We will have children with you if we're spying on you, if that's what it takes. And that's what they did. So um Project Phoenix is is an attempt to and a very worthy attempt to resurrect these grassroots groups, have loads of small groups growing. some ah Some groups who were just as just two or three people, some were dozens.
00:18:59
Speaker
it depended on the population of the area and the amount of interest and the amount of drive that the coordinators had. and at at any given time So it's it's wonderful to see it happening. for What separates the animal rights struggle from previous struggles like the women's liberation movement and the anti-slavery movement is that we can't rely politically on the oppressed species to help us do this.
00:19:24
Speaker
It's almost as if the women's rights movement couldn't rely on any women to get involved in that movement, that it was just the purview of men to sort of see this through. And you can imagine how slowly it would have taken for women to gain some civil rights if they couldn't get involved in it themselves, or if slaves couldn't get involved in their own the the liberation over the United States whatever, if it was only up to the oppressor class to do this.
00:19:50
Speaker
And that's how it is with animal rights. the only people who can The only species that can politically push this through is people who are part of the oppressor species. and And this was mentioned in the Have We Lost Our Nerve As A Movement article, that the fact that testimony from slaves was a big part of helping end the oppression of of slavery. I'm interested in what we think about the the comparisons that are made there, because obviously, as you say, Mark, it is very different.
00:20:21
Speaker
As well, it was... i mean, it was... 200 years ago that that movement was happening. I'm obviously aware that slavery does still exist and in the world and it's not completely gone away. Like, do we feel that that's a helpful parallel to draw or I don't know, I have my reservations.
00:20:37
Speaker
um I think it did there's there's a lot of similarities between the oppression of other humans, be they people of different skin colour or of a bit different gender or whatever, and other species.
00:20:47
Speaker
We need to bear in mind, and this isn't Condoning or condemning, I'm just pointing out the historical fact that slavery and women's rights were both fought with extreme violence. The Americans had a civil war about this. One of the tactics of the suffragettes during the 1920s was throwing axes at members of parliament as they were giving speeches.
00:21:05
Speaker
trying to hit them in the head. Another tactic was setting fire to houses with people inside them. Okay, they were extremely violent movements. As I say, I'm not saying that that was an effective way of going about it or a good way of doing things. I'm saying that was one of the tactics that was used by a struggle that was, in the end, a very successful struggle.
00:21:21
Speaker
So animal rights isn't going to be won by being nice all the time. It just simply won't. and particularly when we can't rely on the oppressed species that we're concerned about to get involved politically as well. This all needs to be coming from members of the oppress of the oppressing species.
00:21:39
Speaker
So Project Phoenix is an attempt to sort of establish and then coordinate hundreds potentially of small groups of animal rights activists doing things at the same time and responding i ah on on the hoof, if you like, to issues as they as they come up. So it's it's a very worthy thing to get behind.
Conference for Activist Coordination
00:21:58
Speaker
In fact, Tom Harris had a big Zoom call with animal activists over here who were trying to establish, ah I wasn't in on this at the time, I was busy, but quite recently, just a few weeks back,
00:22:09
Speaker
to try and establish a more coordinated network of grassroots activists here. In fact, we're having a big animal rights conference in Christchurch in two weeks' time, partly around this. So it is something that is worth doing. it has proven remarkably effective in the past, and that explains the state's willingness to do anything to try and stop them. It is a thing I see that the talk of slavery and suffragettes is so sanitised in the schools I visit where there is so rarely any mention of
Critique of Sanitized History in Education
00:22:42
Speaker
violence. Usually it's completely painted as a peaceful movement and you can argue, well, what's appropriate to tell children? The truth! The truth is appropriate to tell children and the idea that...
00:22:56
Speaker
ah you know, it's completely taking out one of the most important elements of what made it successful. The the the the the illegal actions, the that the violence, that's one of the things.
00:23:10
Speaker
Something that I do not know the answer to, which I think is maybe something you were alluding to, Anthony, is like if I was going into a school where you know I'm a person who is a white man, and I often go to schools where most of the children are children from from South Asian heritage or black families. And if I'm with a load of black children, I go, oh, veganism. you know It's like slavery, isn't it?
00:23:41
Speaker
On one hand, the whole thing we're talking about is are we losing our way by being too gentle, or gentle, or gentle? But then on the other hand, clearly, if I was to do that, and I know I gave a very ridiculous over-the-top answer, you know, sorry, over-the-top example, being a white guy going in, oh, veganism's like slavery, isn't it?
00:24:02
Speaker
But that's not the best start of forming a good communication. So whilst acknowledging that, yes, I do think we need abrasive action, I also think you can get off on the wrong foot, can't you?
00:24:18
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's a really important part of it. And also, like, just just our context in 2025 as we record now compared with 1825, you know, the the dynamics of how people make decisions, how change happens, you know, I would say that the the world of 2025 is a lot more ah suspicious or small c critical or less likely to be told what to do. I think we are generally more independent thinkers
00:24:51
Speaker
than people were able to be 200 years ago. Massive generalization, and there's a good chance I don't know what I'm talking about. But I think people were perhaps more likely to be led by, oh, well, the Lord of the Manor has said we're doing this, so we'd better all do this. Or the King has said this, so we'd better do this.
00:25:09
Speaker
And I don't think the world is like that now. So I think that's where the parallels can fall down too. However, learning from history is really important, especially not, you know, not repeating mistakes over and again. Well, I think in answer to the article that, you know, they were saying, are we kind of, you know, losing it and losing our momentum and all the rest of it, they made some statements which were kind of inflammatory to me as someone who sort of identifies as an animal freedom supporter, m aka vegan.
Ambitions Beyond Animal Welfare
00:25:46
Speaker
But I think in a way it was almost done deliberately. But, you know, they were saying things like... You know, we can't let welfare be the limit of our ambition or the story of our movement.
00:26:02
Speaker
Well, they were never, in my mind, ever in danger of being either of those things. They make the point that easing suffering is not the same as ending injustice. Absolutely.
00:26:14
Speaker
When we do, in this show even, report on some kind of progress about cages being... got rid of but not the actual animal agriculture or some reduction somewhere in animal exploitation I think I know I always say well it's a good start but it's not where we end and we're always very clear that it isn't just oh well you know that's okay then and now that
00:26:46
Speaker
conditions are a little better for these animals that are imprisoned and exploited it kind of makes reminds me a bit about a on that scale of when we are encouraged to you know support our carnist friends you know on their little baby steps this that and the other bear you know It's fine to sort of, I suppose, say, oh, well, well done. but But then we do always say, but don't let that be the end of it. What are you going to do next?
00:27:16
Speaker
And I do understand the point they're making about if we frame the problem as cruelty. And that word gets used and misused so much. And people say, can't bear cruelty to animals.
00:27:32
Speaker
And Their idea of cruelty to animals is, you know, beating dogs in the street, whereas animals getting slaughtered in slaughterhouses doesn't even, you know, hit their radar anywhere. But yeah, if we frame cruelty, the problem is cruelty, then people just come up with a kind of kinder exploitation of animals and we don't want that we we want no exploitation we want no animal agriculture we want what I was talking about earlier in reference to that first article about the whales we want to be beside the animals on this earth not controlling and farming and you know harvesting them like a crop and using them and things like that I get labelled
00:28:21
Speaker
by some people as an abolitionist vegan. But i I don't know how I feel about that because I think I'm just, if anything, we you know, just somebody who's consistent in rejecting the exploitation and killing of vulnerable people and animals.
00:28:42
Speaker
You know, I don't think I'm an abolitionist. Well, you know, you can label me that if you like, but I think I'm just consistent in that I don't think it's okay for some folk... And that folk to me are animals, people, insects, you know, whatever. They're all folk to me.
00:28:56
Speaker
You know, i don't believe in oppressing and exploiting and killing some folk and not others. Yeah, well, it's it's similar to the the phrase an ethical vegan, which has been used in the last five five plus years. You know, it's just like, well, that that phrase really has only come about because people have started identifying as vegan if they follow a plant-based diet and not to, you know, knock somebody from eliminating animal products from their diet. But It's not vegan.
00:29:26
Speaker
it's It's just plant-based. It's the watering down thing again. It's happening all over the place. Yeah, you can see how it happens. And it's also, I think, reasonable to give a bit of pushback just to say, oh, I think and we've already got a word that describes this, actually. It's fine. Don't worry.
00:29:41
Speaker
Okay, but I am going to, ah for you know, just take the opposite point of view, just to cause discussion. We can be in a very us and them society. um We can, we can.
00:29:54
Speaker
You know, I'm a gay man. When I was in my 30s, again, I was adamant that I wasn't even going to share a room with people who were homophobic. was subjected to that all through high school. I'm done with it now. I'm exhausted from it. You can just go away. You can just get lost.
00:30:14
Speaker
And that was my very passionate attitude. Now, I quite willfully surround myself with homophobic folks. ah And I'm probably gentle to a comparable degree that Project Phoenix are talking about.
00:30:29
Speaker
I don't ever say, oh, yeah, you know, gays are awful, aren't they? In the same way that I never say, yeah, you know, bacon is tasty, which, it isnt you know, I really miss bacon. You know, i never go that far.
00:30:41
Speaker
But perhaps I am gentle when it comes to people with homophobic views, because I do believe that me being in the same room as people with views that are awful views is better than me not being in the room with them. I do believe that. I do believe that. And I do believe that we're in a very us and them society. And I go in and do poetry project with teenagers, really unsampled. The weight of...
00:31:15
Speaker
horror on the shoulders of teenagers now and forever but you know now now life is hard for teenagers and for them to draw that line in the side and go no you're different you know you are awful I don't want that in my life that's a very common attitude and maybe that isn't helpful in any movement if we can't even be in the same rome Because something that has changed in society is the whole like, um you know, you go into a shop and there'll be signs up, don't abuse the staff or you'll get thrown out.
00:31:48
Speaker
And I'm not suggesting that we do abuse staff in shops. Of course, I'm not suggesting that. But what I'm saying is that sort of a way of shutting down a whole potential argument, like you as a consumer might be like, oh, can I talk about this? And and that there's ah there's a way of being like,
00:32:06
Speaker
No, your argument's completely invalid because you've been too aggressive. So when we are talking about the animal rights movement, we have the risk of that happening to us as well. We have the risk of being shut down immediately because of the current climate of us and them and immediately being seen as, no, no, you you know you're not welcome in this space. You are cancelled. Get out of here.
00:32:35
Speaker
Or maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. And i I completely agree with you, Dominic. And I think that is where ah a portion of our watering down of the animal rights movement has come from. Because I think people do recognise that sometimes to get the conversation going...
00:32:56
Speaker
You do have to kind of water it down for some people to listen to it. But obviously, we we want to then soup it back up again and pour more of the vegan squash back in there. But initially, to to even start the conversation with somebody, you might have to sound more moderate to them, but obviously that can be a slippery slope and we we don't wanna go down that slippery slope for the sake of the animals.
Future Vision: National Network by 2030
00:33:22
Speaker
Just wanted to finish off, cause we are ah needing to round things off here. Project Phoenix's 2030 vision, twenty thirty vision They aim to have built a national network of grassroots groups winning local victories, supporting national campaigns and responding rapidly to opportunities.
00:33:38
Speaker
Strong alliances and coordinated networks across the movement and they want to build the movement's power to win major victories. legislative victories such as bans on racing greyhounds testing on animals and factory farming expansion all stuff that i think we can get behind they have got a get involved section of their website as we've been saying it it seems to be uk focused though i don't think they'd ah say no to somebody remotely um offering support. So listeners, if it is something that sounds up your street and that you'd like to be involved in, just follow the link in our show notes and there's ah a way to get in there. There is a book that's written by one of the main coordinators of Project Phoenix and it is called Your Neighbour Kills Puppies and it documents the ah history of the shark movement.
00:34:24
Speaker
which sort of was the culmination, the apex of the grassroots movements against animal experimentation and signaled the sort of downfall of those movements because the state repression was so heavy. So it's called Your Neighbour Kills Puppies. It's available on Amazon online as a hard copy and as in as an e-book and so on. And it is fascinating.
00:34:42
Speaker
Fantastic. Thank you. Sounds like an enjoyable read.
Conclusion and Episode Wrap-Up
00:34:46
Speaker
And if you have enjoyed our show, everybody, here's what you can do to help us. If you've enjoyed today's show, we'd love it if you could take just a few seconds to share it with someone else who you think might enjoy it too.
00:35:00
Speaker
We don't have a marketing team or a budget to spend on advertising, so your referrals are the best way of spreading the free Enough of the Falafel Joy further still. And if you haven't already, we'd be really grateful if you could leave us a rating on your podcast player.
00:35:16
Speaker
That will also help the show pop up when people search for vegan or animal rights content online. Thanks for your help.
00:35:28
Speaker
Thank you, everyone. And thank you, Mark, Julie and Dominic. All we ever pertain to be is ah just everyday vegans, just giving our insights and giving our opinions. You don't have to agree with us, but hopefully you find it thought provoking. So thank you, all three of you for ah putting yourselves out there.
00:35:46
Speaker
Most appreciated. And we love hearing from people, so please get in touch if you would like at enoughofthefalafel at gmail.com. Yes, yes, yes. Our next Enough of the Falafel episode will be coming out from Monday.
00:36:02
Speaker
it will be our Vegan Week episode, which is our usual weekly roundup of the latest vegan and animal rights news. Anyway, that's enough of the falafel for this episode.
00:36:16
Speaker
Thank you, Dominic, Mark and Anthony for all of your contributions. Thanks again, everyone for listening. I've been Julie and you've been listening to Vegan Talk from the Enough of the Falafel Collective.
00:36:36
Speaker
This has been an Enough of the Falafel production. We're just a normal bunch of everyday vegans putting our voices out there. The show is hosted by Zencaster. We use music and special effects by zapsplap.com.
00:36:51
Speaker
And sometimes, if you're lucky, at the end of an episode, you'll hear a poem by Mr Dominic Berry. Thanks all for listening and see you next time.
00:37:17
Speaker
This episode may have come to an end, but did you know we've got a whole archive containing all our shows dating back to September 2023? That is right, Dominic. There's over 100 episodes on there featuring our brilliant range of different guests, people's stories of going vegan, philosophical debates, moral quandaries, and of course...
00:37:38
Speaker
around a dozen news items from around the world each week so check back on your podcast player to hear previous episodes and remember to get an alert for each new episode simply click like or follow and also subscribe to the show thanks for your ongoing support wherever you listen to us from