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216- Joey Carbstrong vs the dairy farms of Cornwall
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Go on Joey! Our top story is the investigation that has hit multiple news outlet headlines this week; shocking routine farming practices leading to suppliers being suspended. Dominic, Carlos & Anthony discuss this, & seven other stories from the week's vegan & animal rights news across the world.
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Enough of the Falafel is a community of people who love keeping on top of the latest news in the world of veganism & animal rights. With the Vegan Week podcast, we aim to keep listeners (& ourselves) informed & up-to-date with the latest developments that affect vegans & non-human animals; giving insight, whilst staying balanced; remaining true to our vegan ethics, whilst constantly seeking to grow & develop.
Each week we look through news stories from the past 7 days in the world of veganism & animal rights.
If you spot any news stories that might catch our fancy, or have an idea for a discussion topic, get in touch via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com.
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This week's stories:
https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/defra-probe-over-animal-cruelty-10593145
https://plantbasednews.org/culture/tv-and-radio/masterchef-runner-up-first-vegan-finalist/ (happened at the end of sept, but worth featuring i think?))
https://www.michiganpublic.org/criminal-justice-legal-system/2025-10-21/animal-rights-group-plans-supreme-court-appeal-over-rights-of-chimps-in-up-zoo
https://www.countytimes.co.uk/news/25560999.powys-b-b-bear-set-rebrand-vegan-retreat/
https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/chandigarh/dont-sacrifice-owls-on-diwali-punjab-animal-rights-activist-makes-an-appeal-10317183/
https://www.foodingredientsfirst.com/news/chile-octopus-farming-ban-bill.html
https://www.veganfoodandliving.com/news/food-not-feed-report/
https://plantbasednews.org/news/environment/updated-eat-lancet-planetary-health-diet/ -
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Thanks everyone for listening; give us a rating and drop us a message to say "hi"; it'll make our day!
Dominic, Carlos & Ant
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Transcript
Introduction to Vegan Week
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello, hello, hello everybody. My name is Dominic and joining me for today's episode are Anthony and Carlos.
00:00:10
Speaker
But that's enough of the falafel. It is time for Vegan Week. So I think vegans go looking for trouble even when they're not looking for trouble. That's not what butter's used for. Brrr! Take your lab-grown meat elsewhere.
00:00:25
Speaker
We're not doing that in the state of Florida. What about your protein and what about your iron levels? Should I call the media and say, hi, sorry? they They're arguing like, oh, poor woe is me. Hang on a minute.
00:00:35
Speaker
You always pick the
00:00:42
Speaker
social injustice has connection another. That's just what people think vegans eat anyway. As long as you donna get the wee brunions with the horns you'll be all alright. Does veganism give him superpowers?
00:00:58
Speaker
I cannot fly around the city. I don't have laser vision. Hello everybody, my name is Anthony and goodness, thank you for being here. Like think of all the other things you could be doing with your time and you've chosen to listen to us. We're really grateful for it and we really hope you enjoy the show. Hello everyone, this is Carlos. Thanks so much for being here.
00:01:18
Speaker
Short reminder that this is our news show where we look through vegan and animal rights news from the last week or so.
Impact of Joey Carbstrong's Documentary
00:01:25
Speaker
But that's enough of the falafel. Let's hear what's been going on this week.
00:01:32
Speaker
For more details on the upcoming news stories, including links to our original source material, check out our show notes for this episode, available on your podcast player.
00:01:44
Speaker
Okay, everyone, our first story is from Cornwall Live. And if you do look at our show notes, ah Cornwall Live have put in a YouTube video you can watch. And I will say that the video is a shocking video the story is about defra having a probe over animal cruelty allegations at a cornwall well a pair of cornwall farms there's an activist and filmmaker joey carbstrong who's released a youtube documentary highlighting incidents of animal cruelty at
00:02:25
Speaker
to Cornwall Farms. He secretly obtained footage in 2022 and then again earlier this year showing cows being whipped, prodded, punched, slapped and kicked as well as calves being dragged and pushed. It really is a very shocking film. The practices have led to, ah um think I'm going to say this correctly, Saputo Dairy who are the owners of the Davidstone Creamery in North Cornwall, saying that the Polshia Farm, one of the two farms, will no longer supply their milk to them whilst its own investigation is underway.
00:03:07
Speaker
The other farm, I'm going to mispronounce this one as well, is Trevia Farm. They haven't commented on the situation. I'm going to say to Carlos that for something that isn't a vegan publication cornwall live i think that they do a pretty good job of not putting any slant on it they are sharing a very graphic video of animal abuse which as sad as it is that this is happening sharing it must be a good thing right carlos
00:03:45
Speaker
Yeah, and um you can go and check the video on YouTube and see the comments and also on other social media.
Can Animal Agriculture Reform?
00:03:51
Speaker
A lot of the people commenting on this aren't not vegan or vegetarian. They're people unconcerned about animal rights and they still get shocked at that footage.
00:04:01
Speaker
I think it just highlights that um you know animal agriculture can't be reformed. it must be replaced with other ways of feeding ourselves. And actually, we have a story about this on this podcast.
00:04:12
Speaker
There's just no way to to justify abuse. and even Even when you know there's something like high welfare standards and so on and so forth, as we saw with ah the RSPCA's red tractor program earlier this year, we even with whatever high welfare they claim to have, as as as soon as there are no nobody's looking or they think there's nobody looking, they you know they just go back to their usual practices.
00:04:38
Speaker
Animals are intelligent. They understand when they're being abused, when they're not... you know, they're being forced to do things they don't want to do or marching to their deaths. They will fight back. They will get abused, even more abused in those circumstances.
00:04:52
Speaker
Ultimately, there's no humane way to kill an animal and or to exploit an animal. It's great that this has come out. Obviously, not great that this is happening, but it's great that it's come out and it's great that it's got such a high publicity and kind of high visibility, even among non-vegans and non-animal rights activists.
00:05:11
Speaker
Carlos, you're absolutely right. It shows here that the cows do not want to be doing what they are being asked, forced, encouraged to do by the workers.
00:05:23
Speaker
And um umm I'm not wanting to let people get away with horrific abuse and behaviour.
Challenges in Farm Work
00:05:31
Speaker
However, if you put yourself in the position of ah a farm worker, like you're being asked to make animals do something they don't want to do. And you can see in this video, there is a guy who is is looking for any excuse to be aggressive to to this animal. Like it seems to me that he's at his wits end. Like his job is getting these animals to do things they don't want to do. And he's he's lost it. you You can see that.
00:05:56
Speaker
And that's what animal agriculture requires of its workers. And of course course, there'll be a wrong one every now and then. But we we see this in so many places. Like, What's asked of the workers is is unrealistic and it's it's going to drive people to do things like this.
00:06:12
Speaker
Yes, and it's it's systemic. I mean, you you could put the kindest person doing this job, but at some point they're going to be told, right, get these 30 cows to go into this pen or something.
00:06:23
Speaker
And if the cows don't want to go, you you know the nicest person in the world only has two options, either you know do something they definitely don't want to do quit. qui I think both make really good points. And I think the the danger, actually, yeah speaking about all the comments ah being shocked on on YouTube, is that this is seen as as an exception to the rule, to use Anne's language, you know, a wrong one, you know, whereas...
00:06:50
Speaker
Yeah, as Anne says, how do you get these animals to do something that they definitely don't want to do that's really harmful to them? So what we don't want is for it to be all the focus just on these farms being like, oh, look, you know, just these farms are the problems because how do you do the job without doing this? It is a much wider issue of it being really cruel across the board. let's let this is just one of many cases and i think the continual highlighting of these practices will create more awareness and hopefully create more vegans i agree carlos and to end as i started i think it's fantastic that um
00:07:31
Speaker
It's not worded in Cornwall Live in any kind of like, oh, these crazy vegans, look what they're doing now, these mad animal rights people. It very much is seeming to be saying that harming animals is wrong.
Vegan Retreats: A Growing Trend
00:07:48
Speaker
Well, moving on to a different story, someone else who's definitely up for the kindest lifestyle they can is a B&B in the part of the world where I grew up. We're leaving England where I currently live going back to Wales and in Powys there is a B&B set for a rebrand as a vegan retreat.
00:08:12
Speaker
There's a big old story in Powys County Times about this new venture. It does focus this story rather a lot on the previous owners, Sian and her partner Gwil, who have been running the bear for a great number of years and are really loved in the community. But they're now passing it on to ah vegan eco-conscious couple who are rebranding it as the Green Bear Guest House.
00:08:44
Speaker
So that's really exciting that that's happening. I happen to know that Ant is a person with great experience of running vegan businesses. So Ant, would you have any advice to give to the new people who are doing something so bold and so brilliant over in Powys?
00:09:05
Speaker
Goodness me, where to start? Where to start? I mean, rather than advice, my my first thing would be to say kudos to you for for going for it. My assumption would be a business like this, ah they they mention on a social media post, all listeners can follow them on Facebook, just search for Green Bear Guesthouse and you'll find them and on Instagram too.
00:09:27
Speaker
um They talk about moving in. to the to the property. So I imagine in a sense that might reduce the risk for them if it's also their house. It might also double the risk if they're needing income from this venture to pay their mortgage.
00:09:42
Speaker
um I notice as well that they've They are a young family as well. They've got children. So goodness me, that that there's a lot to do. But it's it's a beautiful part of the country. And I just think fantastic that that people are doing this.
00:09:57
Speaker
It's just over an hour's drive from me. And this is this is a real animal, agricultural, heavy part of the country. you know We've not got box parks here and and retail parks and things like that. It's fields and fields and fields.
00:10:11
Speaker
full of animals. um And the fact that, you know, there is a couple who's got enough gumption and I don't know, enthusiasm from somewhere to to give this a go is is fantastic. I think it being a retreat rather than just a vegan pub is going to make it more destinational. And so um there's a lot of comments on their social media page of people saying, oh, that sounds great. We'd we'd love to explore this area. So I guess they're hoping for destinational vegan tourists and calling it eco-friendly maybe that will bring in a crowd that's not necessarily vegan but yeah but I think it's a fantastic story that in a having a vegan b&b in the middle of London is arguably less of a risk than this isn't it in terms of target market and and things like that
00:11:03
Speaker
So I just thought it's is great that, you know, Powys in Wales is is not one's stereotypical vegan haven. However, it's a beautiful area. So anyone listening that can get to mid Wales, looks like you could have a great weekend there. So why the devil not?
00:11:18
Speaker
Yeah, it does sound that way. And for me, it's something really important knowing whether somewhere is all vegan. I sometimes have quarrels with my omnivorous friends when they're like, well, it's got a vegan option. And I'm like, and it's also got non-vegan options. And this isn't about choosing between what's your favourite colour, red or blue. This is about choosing something which I oppose.
00:11:44
Speaker
because of its cruelty or supporting something that is as kind as possibly can be. So I think that their wording retreat is a great word. It's a beautiful part of the world. I feel optimistic. Yeah. You asked me for for some advice. I've just thought of some, Dominic. I have been to a, quote, vegan B&B before where there has been ah tea bags in the room that had honey in them.
00:12:09
Speaker
and I slept on a pillow that had feathers in. So my my my advice would be, if you're calling it vegan, make sure it is vegan. Make sure you're not using Mr. Muscle to clean the toilets and things like that. you know If you're calling it plant-based, fine, you know focus on the menu and what have you. But if you're calling it vegan and you want repeat custom from people and good reviews, do your very best to make sure it is.
00:12:32
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. Do you know what? I do not use Mr. Muscle. But I don't know why Mr Muscle's not vegan. what What's the issue with that, Ant? Well, I'm assuming it's tested on animals and is part of a huge multinational company that doesn't give a doesn't give a toss what's in it. i could I could be wrong. Whilst Carlos is telling us about his next story, I'll have a quick Google and see if I've besmirched the good name of Mr Muscle.
00:12:57
Speaker
Yeah! It is a good day. I mean, I'm very privileged that living in Manchester, we've got loads of little independent vegan places that sell really lovely cleaning products. We've got our all vegan supermarket a unicorn here, which is a joy for such things.
Creative Vegan Cooking with Sophie Sugru
00:13:15
Speaker
Well, speaking of vegan joy, Carlos's next story is about the first ever vegan finalist on MasterChef.
00:13:26
Speaker
Now I'm going to mispronounce her name. And I have tried to do my research. I've been looking online on how to pronounce the name Sophie Sugru. He said with an inflection. in i think Yeah, you think that's all right? You think that's all right?
00:13:40
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, Sophie is, you know, she won a little while ago, actually. But it's not just about her win. It's about how prevalent she is on Instagram and TikTok, that she's continued to share stories.
00:13:55
Speaker
ah vegan recipes. She's very vocal about being vegan. She's 26 years old. She grew up watching MasterChef.
00:14:06
Speaker
She was inspired to apply by her late father, competed against 60-0 other chefs to reach the finals and became known for her unique plant-based plates.
00:14:18
Speaker
She told Plant-Based News that being able to share This food on such a large platform meant the world to her, and she was incredibly grateful for the opportunity.
00:14:30
Speaker
Now, Carlos, this is somebody who's been vegan for a number of years, who speaks lightly about being a, quote, completely driven by ethics.
00:14:41
Speaker
She's using her platform to be very positive about recipes, about creativity, about taste. That's her angle. She's certainly not looking at the evils of animal agriculture. How significant, Carlos, do you think this is for the vegan movement, for her to use her platform?
00:15:05
Speaker
Speaking of joyful recipes. Is that a good thing? Would she be better to do something different or is that the approach that's best? Yeah, I mean, it's ah it's a huge cultural moment for vi vegan visibility, at least in the UK, because it's MasterChef UK.
00:15:20
Speaker
So I think it's a huge moment. There's a vegan, of course, vegan... Food has a branding problem, I would say, where it's commonly associated with being very boring and tasteless. And yes, vegan is a chore because you have to put up with a terrible food and it's a sacrifice you make being a vegan.
00:15:37
Speaker
And she's kind of thrown that that whole concept to the side and just went, I don't want to apologize for the food I'm making. I'm making amazing food. And it just, you know, it happens to be vegan, but I'm making amazing food. you know, that's what matters. you know, it's like a completely different way to approach. She's being joyful in her cooking. She's not being, thinking,
00:15:57
Speaker
oh, yes, it's worse than regular food, but it's vegan, so you can feel good about it. She's not going for that angle. She's just thinking, this is great food, and it doesn't include any ah animal products.
00:16:10
Speaker
And I think it's an amazing moment for vegan visibility in the UK. And I think it's a a proof ah as well that compassion... and excellence can coexist.
00:16:21
Speaker
You know, you can have something that's done with full awareness of the cruelties of the creation of animal products, but at the same time, having like this excellent technique and and pure enjoyment of food.
00:16:35
Speaker
For some people, some people tend turn vegan and they go, okay, I'm going to miss out on a lot of stuff I used to like, but I'll make that sacrifice. But we also want people to become vegan and go, I don't need to make sacrifices. I can lead like a full life being vegan. I don't need to.
00:16:51
Speaker
This is not a sacrifice. I'm not doing, I'm not, i'm I'm doing this for the animals, but it's not a sacrifice that I'm making for the animals, just a change that I'm making from the animals. Yeah, very much so. I guess I ask my leading question because I myself am a poet who writes poetry about veganism and I lean in that direction that I'm quite joyful and often I question whether being happy about veganism celebrating is the most effective thing or whether maybe I would do well to speak a little bit more about the
00:17:24
Speaker
inequalities and cruelty in the world. So I guess I was drawing ah parallels with her. You were speaking about how some people presume that vegan food is bland and tasteless. I also have seen in my time being vegan, the increase of popularity of vegan junk food. And don't get me wrong, I am definitely someone who eats more than their fair share of vegan burgers.
00:17:50
Speaker
But I love how she has been making food from scratch and really creative recipes that she's then breaking down exactly how she makes them and having fun making them.
00:18:04
Speaker
it's It is a joyful thing to see. have you have you Are you much of a cook, Carlos? you someone who makes stuff from scratch? i cook almost all my meals and I'm terrible in plane.
00:18:17
Speaker
and that is nothing of which to feel shame what about you haven't you well of course you're a good girl you had your own business didn't you for a good period i paid other people to do the cooking but you know with staff shortages and things like that inevitably i i got dragged in like yeah i i cook most nights and and and from scratch and and really enjoy it i'm working my way through the alphabet at the moment i'm doing each each country's national dish and trying to veganize it which is which is great fun and a maybe a topic for another podcast another time ah a question i have about this i've i've been researching over the last couple days trying to find the answer i couldn't find out whether she had to cook animal products as part of the process and and i wouldn't and necessarily have a go at it if
00:19:02
Speaker
If she did, i think she's still, as Carlos said, is bringing veganism to the to the top table and and showcasing how brilliant plant-based food can be. All I could find was a Romanian MasterChef contestant a few years ago walked off the show because he was vegan and was told, well, you have to cook meat.
00:19:22
Speaker
And he said, well, ah ah I'm not going to do it then. So I don't know whether she had to or not. So maybe any listeners who are avid watchers of the show could could tell us, if you've been watching the latest series, whether that was part of it. But I don't, like said, don't bring that up to say, oh, she's not a proper vegan then, because I i think probably she's she's still brought her a great deal of visibility.
00:19:45
Speaker
You could argue that that maybe there'd be a bit of confusion. Oh, vegans can cook meat then. But I just don't know about the pragmatics of that. So I'd be interested to hear from anybody. My research has yielded nothing. Yeah, no, i've I've been looking her up and I've only seen vegan things. I've not seen any accusations of hypocrisy on the comments.
00:20:03
Speaker
So yeah, I'm optimistic. Maybe the UK master chef learned from the experiences with the Romanian version of the show. Yeah, and and and vegans are very quick to call out other vegans on their flaws, aren't we? Don't know what you're talking about. So if she has not just as for the for the ah thimble of dairy milk on her cookie, I would have known that is a Very fair point. Well, Ant spoke about making food from different places around the world. And so far, this show, our stories have been UK based, but our next story is going international. We are going to look at a story in India.
Sanjeev Jain’s Activism Against Owl Sacrifices
00:20:49
Speaker
This is a story published by The Indian Express.
00:20:54
Speaker
And it speaks of the sacrifice of it owls on Diwali. So a Punjab animal rights activist has been making an appeal for this to not happen.
00:21:08
Speaker
Now, I'm sure I'm going to mispronounce this activist's name, Dr. Sanjeev Jain. Why not? Why not?
00:21:18
Speaker
It's really hard to find people sp saying their full names on ah um on audio. So I'm going to go with Dr. Sajid J. you This appeal has been ah made because ah there's a lot of belief in superstitions like black magic. Now, this is all news to me. Jane says that owls are extremely beneficial to our environment by controlling pests such as small rodents and worms.
00:21:41
Speaker
Their behaviour is eco-friendly, similar to other natural scavenging animals. But during Deepawali, many superstitious people sacrifice owls in practices such as old rituals and talisman. What a shocking thing to to happen.
00:22:01
Speaker
It is a legal thing to... to take place. There is the Wildlife Protection Act of 1972 and the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act of 1960 and yet traps still happen. Well this was a complete eye-opener to me and is this something of which you were previously aware no absolutely not and before I go into the story i I just want to reiterate something I've I've said before on the show my culture my background is is
00:22:35
Speaker
White British, if you want to get put it in that box, that's often a box I'd tick on a survey if ever asked the question. And there's all manner of instances in that culture where people are needlessly...
00:22:50
Speaker
torturing or ending the lives of animals due to superstition, tradition, luxury, leather seats on cars, fur blankets, things like that. So before discussing something from another culture, um which might seem a bit different, it might seem a bit extreme because like many of our listeners, it's different to me. ah I want to draw attention to the fact that there's plenty going on in my backyard and and my culture that is It's basically the same.
00:23:20
Speaker
It's basically the same. We see owls as a you know ah ah free wild species in 99.9% of cases. And so maybe that that shocks us more, but effectively it is the it is the same thing.
00:23:33
Speaker
um I think this, I don't actually know the difference between black magic and religion, for example. I'm um i'm sure there are differences, but as far as I'm aware as a lay person, we're talking about having faith in something or having a superstition or having a belief in something that maybe can't be empirically, scientifically proven. Listeners do send me in an email and educate me if if I've got that wildly wrong.
00:24:00
Speaker
But, you know, regardless of somebody's own beliefs, superstitions, faith or anything like that, I think people have got the right to have those things just for themselves. But as soon as it starts affecting other people, like human children or animals, I take exception to it. And and obviously this is not okay.
00:24:19
Speaker
brilliant that there are people in that culture who are calling it out because it's difficult to ah call out things that are normal, normal to some at least, in our own culture, isn't it? It's difficult to go against the grain. It's much easier to go, oh, look at that, what they're doing in that other country where I don't have to talk to people.
00:24:37
Speaker
It's easy to point the finger, isn't it? but But this activist that the article has written about his actions, like he's in there in in the thick of it so So well done for him.
00:24:48
Speaker
it's It's interesting, you you mentioned, Dominic, the fact that it's against the law. And it's iss very interesting. sort of We can have a country... you know Think of the UK where certain things are against the law, other things are okay, but they both result in cruelty to animals.
00:25:05
Speaker
you know So so there will be it's it's not okay to to torture or sacrifice an owl in India, but there will be other... creatures where it is okay to to end their life. you're not youre You're not going to be a victim of the law or hauled up in front in front of a judge. So and the in a sense, the only news here to me is that i while I didn't know that there were parts of the world that but did this to owls, I'm not surprised.
00:25:33
Speaker
It's fantastic that the there is an activist, and i'm I'm sure there are several activists who are saying, no, this shouldn't happen, and credit to them. And just generally, my belief is that to your activism in your part of the world, but your culture, your people, um it's far more likely to be informed and effective.
00:25:51
Speaker
And I'm glad that I've learned of some people rallying against another horrible practice in ah in a different part of the world and and good luck to them. Good luck indeed. I was very fortunate that I was invited to a part of India and clearly India is a massive country.
00:26:08
Speaker
Went with my poetry, and i was there for one month. And for me personally, it was the easiest place I've ever been to be vegan. I'd had all kinds of caution about whether to go or not go.
00:26:26
Speaker
The food that was made for me was absolutely delicious. And it was fantastic to never even see meat. I had a month of my life in this very particular part of the India where i was, where it was just like meat didn't exist.
00:26:44
Speaker
There were some people eating food that had dairy in it. I was aware of that. i was aware that some things had been cooked with ghee. So it wasn't a fully vegan world, but it was joyful to just think, wow, wow, you know, no meat, just not even, not having to have that. That was a ah very, very wonderful thing.
00:27:05
Speaker
Wonderful indeed. Well, we'll go from India over to the US for a story of animal rights groups who are appealing over the rights of chimps in a US
Legal Rights for Chimpanzees?
00:27:19
Speaker
zoo.
00:27:19
Speaker
An animal rights group plans to take its case to the Michigan Supreme Court after lower courts denied request to order an unlawful imprisonment hearing for six chimpanzees at an Upper Peninsula Zoo.
00:27:33
Speaker
The Michigan Court of Appeals ruled last week that chimpanzees do not have legal status similar to humans. Jake Davis of the Non-Human Rights Project says, chimpanzees are our closest living non-human relatives.
00:27:50
Speaker
We share almost, depending on who you ask, 99% of our DNA with chimps. Imagine if you woke up every single morning and you were confined to a cage and you had evolved to need fresh air and sunlight and you weren't even guaranteed access to that on a daily basis.
00:28:10
Speaker
So the six chimpanzees are at a privately owned family zoo, the De Young family zoo. The zoo has not responded with any comment on this situation.
00:28:24
Speaker
Carlos, as vegans, we don't want to see any animal experiencing any suffering. This story focuses a great deal on the intelligence of the chimps. This story, which ah I neglected to say, is from the Michigan Public, the NPR publication. That's their main angle, that the how intelligent chimps are.
00:28:49
Speaker
Do you think when stories focus on the intelligence or animals, does that help or hinder our vegan message? I don't want to be too precious about it.
00:29:00
Speaker
Generally, i don't i don't like these stories and this angle about animal cognition related to animal rights. Because then that excludes a lot of animals who who might even have high cognition. It's just not the type of cognition we give value to.
00:29:14
Speaker
They're very intelligent. They're just not intelligent in ways in which we give value to being intelligent. For example, we give a lot of value, for example, to being able to use tools. But that's, you know, some animals don't even need to use tools to go about their lives and have the best possible lives.
00:29:30
Speaker
So, you know, that that kind of creates a hierarchy of animals. Even in some religions, for example, if you look at... um and a you know Most religions that believe in reincarnation, they have like a scale of animals, know, the humans at the top and then there's kind of various levels of animals.
00:29:46
Speaker
And, you know, at the bottom are like invertebrates. and then And then you have like, you know, reptiles and then mammals and so on and so forth. i don't want to get into details. So I don't like this idea of kind of giving different types of animals different levels of rights they should have or not have.
00:30:03
Speaker
so So this story... is I guess not surprising. i mean, animals are almost universally considered property in almost every law, every country I know.
00:30:14
Speaker
Sometimes they have laws special laws that apply to them even as property in terms of not being abused and and giving them some kind of protection that you wouldn't give to, i don't know, a chair. or something or a car, but they always property. They don't have individual rights like humans have individual rights.
00:30:31
Speaker
and And so that that creates like a paradox between kind of doing activism for this sort of, let's say, kind of rights-based advocacy for the animals, where you're trying to do what the non-human rights project was trying to do, or just have sort of a welfare-based approach where you look at the animal and you try to improve their conditions.
00:30:49
Speaker
But improve their conditions as animal property and so on and so forth. And I think both angles have their merit in terms of each individual campaign and what it can achieve. Having said that, I think the only good thing to take out of this piece of news is that this kind of conversation is reaching the top legal courts.
00:31:10
Speaker
at least in the US. So this is something that merits discussion at those levels, not something that just gets outright thrown out of court for being nonsense. So the fact that it's at least being discussed at that level, I think is a positive.
00:31:24
Speaker
So take that. Yeah, it is a positive. It's being discussed. Linking it to the previous story Ant was talking about, I was quite shocked that chimpanzees were wouldn' being spoken about by the Supreme Courts in in this way. I would have thought with the bias that non-vegans have that this would not be the case. I was was really upset to read this story.
00:31:50
Speaker
But great that there are activists out there continuing to campaign. know Ant, do you have anything to add to this particular story? I agree with a lot of what Carlos has said in terms of, like, it's in a sense from a sort of pure animal rights perspective, it can be a slippery slope to go down the what percentage of their DNA is similar to us, how intelligent are they argument, and I understand why people do it.
00:32:18
Speaker
I just know that kind of the humanness of chimpanzees can be a gateway for certain people, clearly not for everybody, but to become more interested in and animal rights. And even though these habeas corpus rights campaigns aren't always successful, sometimes they are, but they're not always successful, it still raises the issue, it starts the conversation, and for a lot of people that is their gateway into animal rights. I know several people personally who That was sort of at the start of their journey. So I think it's good that folk are talking about it. Thank you, Ant.
00:32:51
Speaker
Well, moving from North America to South America, we have a story from Food Ingredients First.
Chile's Octopus Farming Ban Proposal
00:33:00
Speaker
And this is a story about Chile targeting octopus farming bans in a landmark animal welfare bill.
00:33:09
Speaker
So Chile has introduced a bill to ban octopus farming, aiming to protect marine ecosystems, public health and animal welfare. ah The proposal follows global warnings about the environmental and ethical risks of intensive octopus aquaculture.
00:33:29
Speaker
So if the bill is approved, Chile will become the first of the Latin American countries to prohibit octopus farming. This move is after a recent report on World Octopus Day, warning of the growing threat to octopus, of octopus farming on animal welfare.
00:33:46
Speaker
It's good that this particular story isn't just speaking about one angle. It's a really detailed thing. It does speak about the intelligence of octopuses, similar to our chimpanzee story. But there's also quite a big section where it's talking about the environmental risks.
00:34:07
Speaker
It's not just octopus who are heavily farmed. It is the wild fish populations which are used to feed the octopus. So with already declining populations in fish globally, this is a huge problem.
00:34:23
Speaker
And there's the overuse of antibiotics in aquaculture, ah leading to drug resistant bacteria, which may spread to the human population, increasing diabetes.
00:34:34
Speaker
health rest So ah this particular story has got quite a number of ah ah number of approaches as to why octopus farming is really harmful.
00:34:48
Speaker
They are really intelligent animals. And they are also an animal that we tend not to eat so much here in the UK, where we're recording this podcast. As some of what Ant said earlier about looking at the owls in in India, we've got a little bit of awareness there. that we're speaking of another country altogether.
00:35:09
Speaker
But Ant, you know, this is great that Chile's leading the way in the Latin American countries. A positive story. Yeah, well, i yeah, that as you said, there's many different parts to this story, and I'll try and break them down and give my approach or stance on on each of them. Like you say, they would be leading the way in Latin American countries,
00:35:31
Speaker
their potential octopus market is much smaller than Spain or Mexico's would be. And they have not yet said that they're going to ban it. In fact, they're looking into it. So that's kind of the biggest bad news, I would say.
00:35:44
Speaker
ah Well done, the US states of California and Washington who have already banned this. So that's fantastic. And hopefully that can can influence these things too. We know there's a lot of keeping up with the Joneses in animal agriculture and environmental development.
00:35:58
Speaker
policies, well, just politics in general, people don't want to be left behind. So that gives us some grounds for hope. I find it really interesting that this story is one of several, talking about octopus farming in that, I mean, we've taken it from foodingredientsfirst.com.
00:36:14
Speaker
I mean, that tells you something, doesn't it, that that how they're being considered in one regard But also we're talking about animal rights, animal welfare. So that's, again, grounds for optimism.
00:36:26
Speaker
It's also interesting that people are talking about octopus intelligence. In the previous story, we're talking about what what what proportion of the human genome is similar to a chimpanzee.
00:36:38
Speaker
Well, actually, octopuses, like from an evolutionary point of view, they're they're miles away from us. Yeah, intelligence is being brought in, but we're not talking about DNA. You know, a cow or a chicken is far more similar to us genetically than an octopus is, but we're still finding ways to advocate. so It's possible, isn't it, to find similarities with these animals, to find something in common that makes us say, this is not good.
00:37:02
Speaker
I mean, just in case listeners aren't aware that the way that these animals are killed is they're effectively frozen to death. They're put in big slurries of ice water and that drops their body temperature so that they they then They don't literally freeze to death, but that's effectively what's happening.
00:37:22
Speaker
It is horrific. The article points out the fact that that they're really not well suited to living in captivity. No animal is well suited to living in captivity. I mean, you know, again, great that a publication like Food Ingredients First is putting forward the goodness that maybe maybe there are some animals that shouldn't be raised for for meat or what have you. It's good to have that message out there.
00:37:47
Speaker
But no animal. is suited to being in captivity. We're just used to how cows and pigs and sheeps behave in captivity in chickens, but their natural behavior is so far from what we are used to. So I think in a sense, the fact that octopus farming isn't endemic, it's not a worldwide phenomenon,
00:38:09
Speaker
It's working in the octopus's favour here and and giving some good arguments against this being a type of animal ag that is taken on by countries like Spain and Mexico. So, yeah, well done, Chile, for proposing this bill.
00:38:27
Speaker
i mean, it's not been passed yet, but we'd imagine it might be. Well done, California and Washington, and well done anyone who's going to advocate on these issues. animals who are just trying to live their life. We don't need to eat them, leave them alone. So well done anyone who's advocating against that horrid practice.
00:38:45
Speaker
Well said Ant, well said. Well in a moment we're going to have ah Ant and Carlos's pick of the week from their news stories. We're going to hear a little bit about the wasting of food And we're going to hear a bit about preventing death.
00:39:04
Speaker
So proper deep topics on today's week's show. Proper deep topics. As well as producing these audio-based shows, our podcast hosts at Zencaster also provide the written transcript for each show.
00:39:18
Speaker
This is AI generated, so it might not always be 100% correct, but nonetheless, we hope that this will increase the accessibility of our show. So to access any of these written transcripts, head over to zencaster.com forward slash vegan week.
00:39:38
Speaker
going to spell it all for you.
00:39:45
Speaker
then a forward slash, and then the word vegan, V-E-G-A-N, then a hyphen, and then week. zencaster.com forward slash vegan hyphen week.
00:39:56
Speaker
and then each transcript is embedded with any of the shows that you click on.
00:40:03
Speaker
We'll go over to Carlos for the first pick of the week, which is from Vegan Food and Living.
Food Waste in Animal Agriculture
00:40:11
Speaker
So a story about food waste connected to factory farming.
00:40:16
Speaker
Carlos, what's this story all about? So this is a new report from Compassion in World Farming that shows that feeding animals' animals crops fit for you fit for humans, so feeding animals' crops that are fit for humans rather than for animals, wastes enough food to feed 2 billion people. That's like but um almost a quarter of the world's population.
00:40:42
Speaker
The UK alone diverts over 8 million tons of edible grain each year to animal feed. And the report is calling for a global shift from feed the animals to feed the people.
00:40:55
Speaker
I picked this story because I like systemic things. I like looking at how systems create the conditions we live in and the ways we live. And I think that's also the way that we're going to get to a world that's kinder to animals, a the world that doesn't exploit animals would be doing this kind of systemic shift.
00:41:14
Speaker
And this is one of them, is is is one of the strongest factual argument arguments you can have for systemic change. And it shows that animal agriculture is not just cruel, which is an argument that a lot of people will not care about.
00:41:27
Speaker
but it also shows that animal agriculture is inefficient and it's unjust. the In the jingle to our show, we have one of our guests talking about how veganism is linked to other inequalities and other things which are not right in the way the societies work.
00:41:44
Speaker
And this is and ah is a perfect example of that, you know, in the way that animal agriculture, you know consuming animals, and and this guy and this in this way, the the resources given to producing animal products could easily, well, not easily, but could ah quite well do an excellent job of feeding humans.
00:42:05
Speaker
and However, it's that's not what happens. And sometimes I think it's also a perfect example how you have The compassionate argument aligning with this sort of practical argument of not raising billions of animals just for us to eat them, how inefficient that is.
00:42:22
Speaker
Finally, the final point I'll make is that often we are told that veganism is a very privileged position, you know, because vegan food is expensive or rare and whatnot, even though vegan food is, of course, the most common food out of ah that that's available, except maybe some people living in very icy conditions.
00:42:41
Speaker
who can't get to plants and they you know all they can do is hunt seals, but that's just a i such a minority of population of humans. And you know vegan food is everywhere. And unfortunately, we waste quite a lot of it feeding animals, which we'll later eat in the most inefficient manner possible.
00:42:58
Speaker
I think the subject of privilege is a really interesting one. And to link back to our previous story of the person on MasterChef being so joyful with her recipes, I think that's a really great way.
00:43:14
Speaker
to ah combat the the privilege. I think one of the the biggest ah lacking of privileges people have is time. Is time. People are like overworked and they look at a story like this and as you say, they might not care in a story like this about the cruelty angle. They might feel that they don't have the time or the emotional energy to engage in it.
00:43:40
Speaker
But you're absolutely right that it is it is so easy to get vegan food. It doesn't have to be expensive. It certainly doesn't have to be bland. And there is so much less waste. It's so good for the planet on which we all live. So I think a gateway of showing joy is a really good way of negating the privilege. What's your view,
00:44:09
Speaker
um I mean, i I think it's fantastic that this is being shared, you know, vegan food and living. We've critiqued them in the past, but what they're excellent at is their algorithm. So their stories go out to a lot of people um far more than...
00:44:25
Speaker
you know most animal rights organizations' websites. So great to educate folk who have an interest in these things. might and Unfortunately, I'm going to put a bit downer on it. I think folk who are skeptical of eating vegan themselves are possibly in the same bit of the Venn diagram as people who don't have as much concern at the moment, or they've not yet been enlightened enough to have concern about people who are in food poverty. So I think whilst the facts are there, there is still either a job of persuasion to be done for for such people, which have ah and which is related to education and and and stuff like that, or it just becomes something that but world governments say, look, this is not sustainable.
00:45:12
Speaker
We can't continue this way. we We need to simply change the rules, change the systems, as as Carlos says. so um That was just something that popped into my head. But I think the bottom line is it's ah it's it's one of the first bits of vegan education I i remember, actually, when I went to.
00:45:30
Speaker
that vegan fair many, many moons ago that where I decided to become vegan, it was the fact that actually this is a really ineffective way of feeding people. Animal agriculture, you know, just eating plants ourselves is far more efficient. So good to get that message out there. Cause I, I'd say we don't hear that much of it.
00:45:49
Speaker
It's not a front and center argument of veganism that you hear a huge amount. So good to get it out there. Definitely, Ant. Thank you for that. And thank you, Carlos, for choosing that story.
00:46:00
Speaker
We're going to segue onto Ant's Pick of the Week.
Health Benefits of Plant-Based Diets
00:46:04
Speaker
And Ant's Pick of the Week is also from a veganic publication. Ant is going to share a story from Plant-Based News about preventing death.
00:46:15
Speaker
Are vegans becoming immortal, Ant? Is that the key takeaway of this tale? Yeah, absolutely. I'm i'm actually 342 years old. um So that it's interesting because the that the kind of headline here is basically switched to, it's not actually a plant-based diet, um the planetary health diet, but it is significantly plant forward or plant-based focused.
00:46:42
Speaker
But that yeah, the the the headline is if we switch If everyone in the world switched to that kind of a diet, it would prevent a huge number of deaths because of lifestyle disease. I mean, this doesn't go into the environmental impact that animal ag has that, well, leads to deaths or the kind of toxicity of rivers and air pollution and things like that. It's just talking about the dietary side of it.
00:47:07
Speaker
And I pick this as my pick for the week because I think, generally speaking, as as vegans, I mean, I'll speak for myself. When I when i see articles like this historically in in my time as being a vegan, I would think to myself, well, that's great. That's another way to persuade people. You know, basically, plant-based eating is far healthier.
00:47:29
Speaker
And Dr. Michael Greger and you know, all all the other plant-based health professionals. There's reams of, you could spend your whole life watching YouTube channels extolling the virtues of whole food plant-based diets. And very interesting it is too.
00:47:44
Speaker
You know, went through a phase where that was my favorite thing to watch because it's fascinating re-educating yourself on stuff that generally when we're brought up with, we're not told these things. So it's interesting stuff, particularly when you're already doing it. it's It's nice to be told that what you're doing happens to be really healthy, even if that wasn't the reason that you were doing it.
00:48:04
Speaker
I work in a setting where most of my week I'm working with young people who arguably are not having the best start to their life, that generally if they're spending their time with me, you know, they're not top of the class at school or Or things like that, you know, whether we might see that as a good thing or not.
00:48:24
Speaker
And something I've been increasingly aware of is just the food that they come into. It's a woodland that I work in. the food that comes in their lunchboxes, my goodness, you know, so processed, all packaged up.
00:48:38
Speaker
And actually, I'm starting to feel that, like, from a vegan perspective, like, veganism is about compassion for animals, and humans are animals. And actually, ah there's no one other than animal rights activists and vegans advocating for innocent animals in animal ag. So i'm I'm not saying that this is more important than that.
00:49:00
Speaker
But actually, there's a very strong argument for us saying, do you know what, eating healthily, eating a plant-based diet, eating whole foods, really, it's the compassionate way to eat for us as as humans. Because, you know, do do we want our prime minister, our doctors, someone who's about to, I don't know, be your psychiatrist or anything like that,
00:49:21
Speaker
Do we want them to have filled up on a packet of Oreos before they're having an important cabinet meeting or doing some surgery? Or do we want them to have had a really nice, healthy, plant-based whole foods meal? we We want the latter, don't we? you know The thing that the processed unhealthy foods do to us It's not good.
00:49:43
Speaker
It's not good. And there's social justice problems with why we're in this situation. It's it's capitalism. It's greed. it's It's all those inequalities that cause all sorts of problems in in other systems too. So I kind of, I don't know, I just had a moment where I was like, a although this, as I say, although this diet that they're advocating isn't without animal exploitation, there are animal products suggested it but they are at a minimum.
00:50:13
Speaker
I think there's a very strong argument for saying, do you know what? Eating this way is is more compassionate for us as humans and obviously for animals too. So I thought it was it was good that it was being put out there.
00:50:27
Speaker
We need to see more of that really. what what What do you think, Dom? Am I am i um um missing the point, really, in terms of... We we don't want to be too human-centric, do we? I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that everybody can benefit, ah humans and non-humans alike.
00:50:46
Speaker
I certainly always feel good when I cook a meal for people and they say how healthy they feel afterwards and It's a lovely falafel co-host Julie has often said about don't just be positive. Follow it up with. a Yeah, you can keep on with this, can't you? When's your next vegan meal going to be?
00:51:09
Speaker
And looking after ourselves. How can we look after anyone else if we don't look after ourselves? And a healthier diet is a great way to do that. I mean, i i should say as well that, I mean, the the Bearded Vegan podcast that I've recommended, they they don't actively record anymore, but their stuff is still online.
00:51:28
Speaker
they They do a lot of talking about the problems in the animal rights and vegan movement. with people body shaming and saying, if you're not your healthiest, then you're not being the best advocate for the animals. And I completely agree with that.
00:51:42
Speaker
And that's that's not what I'm saying here, just just to be clear. Like, it you know, if if you want to eat in an unhealthy way that's completely plant-based, I do understand that that's your right. and And, you know, no one should be shaming you for that.
00:51:58
Speaker
um But I'm specifically coming at it from a, what should be our default in terms of bringing up children and bringing up future generations. And I think this report is talking about the future and what are what our baseline should be to kind of default the best health and well-being for for the planet and its inhabitants.
00:52:19
Speaker
I'm going to play a little bit of devil's advocate here. And and while i while I agree with everything you said, ah lot of people have unhealthy diets in terms of a lot of processed food and so forth because they just don't have the time ah to cook, which is very unfortunate. But this again, this is a systemic problem. It's not a is not a bad people doing bad things or not caring about their health problem. It's just...
00:52:40
Speaker
It's just that, you know, we we live in a time where everybody's people have got a job and then after the job, they they kind of still get emails from work after time and then long commutes.
00:52:52
Speaker
They would have to go and buy the ingredients and cook them and plan things in advance. And there's a lot of distractions. And this podcast is not is a distraction too for some people, maybe. um So it's it it's so it's a far more complex than just people being slackers with their cooking or not caring about their own health. Because I would say that you know if you ask people if they care about their health, they would definitely say they care about their health.
00:53:16
Speaker
But there's a lot of circumstances. Although I do like about this report that it equates... a plant-based diet with a healthy diet, because that's often one of the arguments used against veganism is that it's unhealthy because it doesn't include iron or B12 or something.
00:53:31
Speaker
So I do appreciate this. and And let's not forget that this healthy diet is also the one with lower emissions, which helps the climate, which helps the environment, which ultimately helps the animals, including the human animals who live in that environment too.
00:53:46
Speaker
So it kind of, to me, it all kind of tight ties together. Yeah, I think people can cook whilst listening to this podcast. I think this podcast isn't necessarily a distraction. I know you were saying that in a light-hearted way, Carlos.
00:54:00
Speaker
But it is, you know, we've spoken a lot on this particular show about privilege and the privilege of time. But seeing cooking as a fun activity, seeing cooking as a group activity can be a wonderful thing to do. And I think that if we...
00:54:18
Speaker
have a change of mindset about creating food or eating food as being a chore, a necessity. We all want to have fun.
00:54:29
Speaker
And this is why I do think stuff like the MasterChef story is so very, very positive. Because if we can encourage people to do something enjoyable and not a competitive thing, not like are you the best cook ever?
00:54:45
Speaker
But just isn't it fun to like get a load of ingredients and hear those sizzling sounds and smell those aromatic flavours. You know, what a joyful thing to to do with people.
00:54:58
Speaker
Yeah. and And to Carlos's point, I completely agree. And wouldn't it be wouldn't it be brilliant if there were not subsidies for animal agriculture and those subsidies instead went towards arable agriculture,
00:55:14
Speaker
So that the only shop in my village, the little Morrisons at the petrol station, instead of selling 90% processed food that has got animal ingredients in, maybe we can see shelves and shelves of things like naked bars and you know plant-based things that you can just grab and go for those who are time poor, as most of us are these days, it seems.
00:55:38
Speaker
and And they're a lot cheaper because it's it's fabulous how many more things like Deliciously Ella and Naked Bars and things like that are available in in the UK now compared with 10 years ago that are completely plant-based and are relatively speaking healthy.
00:55:53
Speaker
But they cost more. They cost more than the equivalent. So it's it's not going to appear to people. But I wonder if we if those subsidies didn't exist for animal ag. I wonder how much more expensive they would be and I wonder how much cheaper the plant-based versions would be.
00:56:08
Speaker
Very good point, Anthony. Very good point indeed. Yeah, we need our own ah falafel political party, don't we? Ant for Prime Minister. That's what I say. That's what I say.
00:56:21
Speaker
Well, that's what I say. But what do you say, listeners? We are always really keen to hear your opinions because we're just a group of folks who are chatting about the news. None of us profess to be experts on anything.
00:56:35
Speaker
We're just people who choose spend our time speaking about stuff over which we have great passion. So please do let us know what you think.
00:56:46
Speaker
Here is how you can get in touch. To get in touch with us, just send us an email at enoughofthefalafel at gmail.com.
00:56:58
Speaker
We see ourselves as a collective, our listenership stretches all around the world and everyone's opinions, questions, feedback and ideas are what helps shape the show.
00:57:10
Speaker
Go on, send us a message today, enoughofthefalafel at gmail.com. Well, thank you everyone for listening today's show. We really hope that you have enjoyed it.
00:57:22
Speaker
um I said I was going to get back to you all on whether or not Mr. Muscle is vegan. I'm afraid it's not. The the parent company, there their policy is to test on animals, regrettably, even though some of their products don't contain animal ingredients.
00:57:37
Speaker
That is a baseline. So ah yeah, don't be buying any more Mr. Muscle. Anyway, more importantly than that, you need to know in the next episode, from Enough of the Falafel is coming out. It's coming out as usual on Thursday. That is our regular pattern, Mondays and Thursdays, in case you hadn't worked it out by now.
00:57:53
Speaker
It's gonna be a vegan talk episode. It's gonna be me, Carlos, and Kate, and we're gonna be discussing what is the point of animal save vigils. Anyway, that's enough of the falafel for this episode.
00:58:06
Speaker
Thank you, Dominic. Thank you, Anthony, for your contributions. Thanks ah again, everyone, for listening. I've been Carlos, and you've been listening to Vegan Week from the Enough of the Falafel Collective.