Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
211- Do vegans need to evolve their vocabulary?
77 Plays5 days ago
Earlier this year the Animal Think Tank released this 'mini guide' suggesting how animal advocates can change their language to better advocate for the change they want to see: https://animalthinktank.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2025/06/Language-Mini-Guide-2025.pdf
But do words really make a difference? And perhaps more pertinently, what difference might these particular suggested words & phrases make? Richard, Dominic & Ant get stuck into this piece of literature and try to work out what we can learn from it.
As ever, we love hearing your views on the topics under discussion (or anything else!) so do drop us your thoughts via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com
*************
Enough of the Falafel is a community of people who love keeping on top of the latest news in the world of veganism & animal rights. With the Vegan Talk podcast, we aim to develop listeners' (& our own) thoughts around key issues affecting veganism & the animal rights movement; giving our opinions, whilst staying balanced; remaining true to our vegan ethics, whilst constantly seeking to grow & develop.
Each week we home in on one topic in particular and pick it apart in more detail. If you have a suggestion for a future show, do get in touch via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com.
*******************
Thanks everyone for listening; give us a rating and drop us a message to say "hi"; it'll make our day!
Dominic, Richard & Anthony
Recommended
Transcript
Transformation in Vegan Lifestyle Choices
00:00:00
Speaker
hello Hello everybody, welcome to the show. Now, as a vegan, you've already changed the contents of your fridge, revamped your wardrobe. Your next task, however, for every level 17 vegan, that is, is to upgrade your language.
Introduction of Hosts
00:00:16
Speaker
I'm Anthony. For this episode of Vegan Talk, I'm also joined by Dominic, and I'm also joined by Richard. So I think vegans go looking for trouble, even when they're not looking for trouble.
00:00:27
Speaker
That's not what butter's used for. Brrr! Take your lab-grown meat elsewhere. We're not doing that in the state of Florida. What about your protein and what about your iron levels? Should I call the media and say, hi, sorry? They're arguing like, oh, poor woe is me.
00:00:42
Speaker
Hang on a minute. You always pick the...
00:00:50
Speaker
of social injustice has connection another. That's just what people think vegans eat anyway. As long as you don't get the wee brunions with the horns, you'll be all right. Does veganism give him superpowers?
00:01:06
Speaker
I cannot fly around the city. I don't have laser vision. Hello everyone, I'm Richard. Welcome everyone listening to this episode of Vegan Talk.
00:01:17
Speaker
Thanks for being here. Yes, yes, yes. My name is Dominic. Hello everyone. ah Vegan Talk is our show that we've been doing for ages. So if you wanted to check through your podcast feed, you'll find all the previous episodes where we pick a topic and we talk at length about that topic. pick.
00:01:41
Speaker
Indeed and because of that because we're not generally talking about the news in these shows they never go out of date so as Dominic says Go back into the archives in your podcast feed and listen back to some of the old ones because they ah will not have gone out of date.
00:01:56
Speaker
What are we going to dive into today?
Improving Language for Animal Advocacy
00:01:58
Speaker
Well, we have been sent, I think it was by one of our contributors, but to be honest, I've forgotten who. Somebody sent this rather interesting substack. I'm learning all about substacks.
00:02:09
Speaker
It's the new hip thing, didn't you know? And it's from an organization called Animal Think Tank. and they have put out this in their sub stack. It is a language mini guide where they're basically saying, here are some ways that you can improve your language use as an animal advocate.
00:02:29
Speaker
And indeed, would they even approve of the term animal advocate? We shall see. What we'll do, obviously the best way for you to appreciate this conversation is gonna be to pause the show now, follow the link in the show notes, click onto the download, It's a very small PDF. I think it's 19 pages, but very accessible.
00:02:50
Speaker
Most of it's pictures um and um and read it for yourself. However, what myself, Richard and Dominic will do is we'll give you a bit of background to the organization and the document itself before we start discussing our opinions. So if you want to kind of read it yourself before hearing other people's opinions, now is your chance to do so.
00:03:13
Speaker
So I'm going to start off by telling you a bit about the organisation themselves. So Animal Think Tank, they are producing quite a few different documents, bits of research, mini-series like this one, and a lot of what they're doing seems to be about...
00:03:30
Speaker
obviously changing our approaches to to veganism and animal advocacy, but basing it on research. Now, if you go onto their website, you'll see that their latest few publications aren't actually bits of research. They're like this. They're their guides. They're suggestions for how to do things in a certain way as animal allies.
Influence of Language on Perception
00:03:51
Speaker
But if you scroll back, on their website you'll see that um going back to 2023 that's the oldest stuff i could see there's been research that they have conducted and it's generally around what we what we might call social sciences so it's not how many animals are in animal ah agriculture what sentient threshold is there for animals it's not about that it's about people's attitudes changing How can we influence things better?
00:04:19
Speaker
um And this is one of those in that it's talking about our language use. Richard, the the document itself has quite a big, I would say, build-up experience.
00:04:31
Speaker
if you like, that the sort of second half of it from about page 11 onwards is suggestions of instead of this you word, maybe use this word. So that starts on page 11. But before then, there's there's quite a lot of background that they give, isn't there, in terms of like, well, this is a guide. It's not a gospel to follow to the letter. Would you be able to give listeners a bit of a background on those first few pages and the the kind of summing up that they do?
00:04:56
Speaker
Yes, I feel like before going to the guide, they needed to give some background of why it's needed. So the first part of it, it's kind of summarising why we need to change the language and what language does to our perception and visualisation or perception of the world.
00:05:16
Speaker
So it starts with explaining why it is important, why language matters. And the truth is, the way we say things, we say it because we've learned it from our parents, from our peers in school.
00:05:31
Speaker
And we just assume that certain expressions are the correct ways of defining an emotion or a state. And for example, um if you say you eat like a pig or something like that,
00:05:46
Speaker
Well, it teaches you or tells you that you're using an animal and a believed behavior to describe, in this case, a negative behavior, meaning you're eating a lot or you're eating in a disgusting way.
00:06:01
Speaker
So that's why they're saying why language matters, because how you use the language is how you build reality. And it works in a double in ah two-folded way.
00:06:12
Speaker
What you say becomes truth, and after the truth is how you say it. So when when you start saying, oh, you're a chicken, you're a chicken, you're a chicken, you just assume that's normal, and you infer back that behavior to the animal.
00:06:26
Speaker
Basically, that's most of the first part. Also, how that has been evolving, which means that obviously we we have so many different ways in which we use language. And we know i would say that we're not even aware of it, even as vegans many times. We'll just use certain expressions. And after, maybe you'll you'll just stick there for a minute and say, hang on a minute, I've just said this and it doesn't make any sense.
00:06:53
Speaker
So language should evolve according to the society we live in and should self-actualize, it should have self-correcting mechanisms to adjust itself to the new realities and to be more accurate in the definitions that you want to do. Yeah.
00:07:14
Speaker
and And that's kind of the the last point they make, isn't it, in terms of language evolves and and weaken we can inform that evolution. It doesn't have to be a ah passive thing. We as as animal allies, weaken we can help steer things in the direction we want.
00:07:31
Speaker
Dominic, I feel like listeners who have not looked at this document yet will be wanting to hear some so specific examples of language to avoid and and alternatives.
Suggestions for Language Evolution
00:07:42
Speaker
They they use a ah framework of saying replace, embrace, and then they give a why as to it. replace is the words that we don't want to use anymore.
00:07:51
Speaker
Embrace is the ones that are suggested as an alternative. And they do give a reason why. Do you want to give some of the the ones that stood out to you or just a little cross section of of some of these examples?
00:08:04
Speaker
So there's different reasons they give for different options of changing language. They speak about leading with a positive frame. So animals, someone, not something.
00:08:17
Speaker
rather than purely negative framework like animals are not products. So we're not reinforcing the the negativity. Animals are someone is a really positive thing to say. So that's their first one.
00:08:30
Speaker
Inclusive language. So rather than say non-human for animals, say something like our animal cousins. they put forward as a positive thing.
00:08:42
Speaker
ah To connect with people's identities and create a bigger us. So using identities like caring people or animal lover rather than vegans and meat eaters, which they see as very us and them.
00:08:58
Speaker
Industry terms, so beef cows, broiler chickens, is putting something before the animal that ah takes attention away from the life. So to say cows, chickens, to really be focused. And also there are gentler phrases that they they dislike, the gentler phrases like culling and tail docking, but to to say what it is, to say killing and mutilating, to be really clear about the verbs.
00:09:27
Speaker
To put the animals first in the language, so rather than racehorses, Horses forced to race. So we're putting word horse, the life first and foremost. ah Not zoo animals, but animals confined in zoos.
00:09:39
Speaker
To use active language. So not saying animal farming, but farming animals. And testing on animals rather than animal testing to emphasize that something harmful is being done.
00:09:53
Speaker
And finally, values-based language. So freedom, kindness, fairness, dignity, truth are all really clear things rather than abstract terms like rights and justice, which are more likely to move or resonate with people earlier on in their journey.
00:10:13
Speaker
Gosh, there's lots there, isn't there? There's lots there and we've already said it, but I really recommend just just clicking the link and and seeing these big long lists and suggestions in front of you. I'm sure there will be some that you look at and go, really?
00:10:29
Speaker
hadn't thought about that. As well as others that you might look at and think, oh yeah, I really resonate with that. That's a really good idea. Let's move on then to hear what each of the three of us thought about this document and indeed perhaps some of the individual words or phrases that have been suggested. Richard, are you happy to take get the ball rolling here?
00:10:52
Speaker
What was your general feeling on this document?
Power of Language in Shaping Reality
00:10:55
Speaker
I think it's excellent. I think it really summarises very well what language does in a bigger scale.
00:11:03
Speaker
And let me start with the bigger scale. I think we, from many years ago, we've started to knock all things by its name. Just to give two examples, I hope it's not too controversial.
00:11:16
Speaker
If tomorrow I go to work and they say, i no longer work there, they won't say I'm fired. They'll say, yeah we need to let you go. where oh Or the same, and this is more sensitive, it when someone dies, we say that person has passed away.
00:11:33
Speaker
So in a way, we're denying reality. We don't want to see reality. And the same and very explicitly happens with reality. with animals i mean the the the most important thing is we treat it as an it not as a he or she with because that denies the consciousness of an animal right i mean it's an object rather than a sentient being and from there it all trickles down as assuming behaviors and just putting behaviors as the main characteristic of that animal so I think this study really nails it when it just gives you ah very very good overview of how we use language to describe animals and
00:12:18
Speaker
how language is used to in a pejorative way to minimize the sentiment or the the the the feeling of that animal and how we can replace it. I think it's just brilliant. And there's many things I've learned, like, for example, there's a place or there's a page in this summary where it tells you what to replace,
00:12:43
Speaker
By what? And course, I always say, for example, animal exploitation, animal farming. It's the farming of animals. And when you think about it, it's like, gosh, yeah, that's true. I've been saying things all my life, which makes sense. Animal testing.
00:12:59
Speaker
it It doesn't feel that bad as if you say testing on animals. It's so much more clear. It gives you such a better picture of what's going on.
00:13:11
Speaker
I mean, you ask people, do you support, what do you think about animal testing? Well, I get this, I guess it's needed, I guess no, I guess blah blah, whatever. If you ask the question, what do you think about testing on animals? Surely the percentage of people that would be against it would be more than asking it in different ways.
00:13:30
Speaker
and I'll let you talk, guys, okay? But also it's like, just when you say, oh would you like to eat some beef? That creates the disconnection between piece of meat you're eating with the animal.
00:13:44
Speaker
You know, why don't we say, would you like a bit of cow? It's, it's, I think it's a tremendous, tremendous guide. And I would recommend everyone to read it because I think, you know, you can take so much out of this.
00:13:56
Speaker
Okay, thank you, Richard. Clearly a fan, clearly a fan. Let's hear what Dominic has to say.
Concerns About New Language Alienation
00:14:02
Speaker
Dominic, you you spend quite a lot of your time mulling over words and their impact.
00:14:07
Speaker
but I do. do spend a lot of time mulling over words and their impact and their... there Impact is different depending on the person to whom you're speaking. I'm not sure I am a fan of this. I don't know what my opinion is. And maybe throughout this talk, my opinion will change.
00:14:24
Speaker
At the moment, I'm not sure whether... the potential could be to push people further away with our language. um In this document on page 16, they talk about framing for other social issues, issues to do with people.
00:14:44
Speaker
And up until that point, I've been like, oh, I don't know what I think. I don't know what think. But then I really did when I looked at this because they give a lot of different examples. And, you know, one example is so they're suggesting replacing homeless with people experiencing homelessness, which again is ah putting the person first, just like in compare that to animals, putting the animals first.
00:15:08
Speaker
I do a lot of ah work with with people who are homeless. And that's not their that's not the words that they use. They just say homeless. They say, I'm homeless. You know, but they they use that. They use that.
00:15:22
Speaker
And I mean, something not in this document, I've even heard people saying that, oh, the correct phrase now is unhoused because you might have a home just because it's not a house. So you should say unhoused.
00:15:33
Speaker
If you use language that isn't the language other people are using, are you subtly saying I'm better than you. I'm more knowledgeable than you.
00:15:44
Speaker
Are you saying that? That's, you know, a question I don't know the answers. To compare the homelessness thing to what Richard just said, the animal testing thing. Of course, I agree with the theory behind this and I hear what Richard's saying.
00:15:57
Speaker
But like if somebody was talking about animal testing and they were using that rather than the suggested testing on animals and I used an other phrasing, the potential is seeing myself as is not not sharing the same ground, not sharing the same ground.
00:16:14
Speaker
I would argue that maybe using the same language that someone's already using and then going, oh, but what is animal testing? What's that entail? Is it necessary? Do we have to have it?
00:16:26
Speaker
might be more successful than what I see as a possible stumbling block to immediately use a different terminology to the to the words they're using and therefore put bit of distance between me and that person.
00:16:41
Speaker
So I don't know. The jury's out for me. The jury's out. That's interesting you say that that. That kind of brings me on to to my take on this, actually. and in In a sense, it's it's difficult reading a ah document that the weak and we can skip through um written text. We don't necessarily get tone. You know, how many arguments have you had with somebody because you've interpreted a text message the wrong way or an email the wrong way.
00:17:07
Speaker
um I did think if this was presented as a video, I mean, it would be quite a long video, I suppose, but we it it might be a bit easier to do a persuasive job of saying, actually, these could be different approaches you could take. Early on, they do say it's important to use different kinds of language and different tones with different people and tailoring your language for different audiences. And I wonder whether that's almost, well, i feel you were touching on that, Dominic, when you were saying like, actually, if we're too far different to to what somebody already uses their language, then are we going to
Adapting Language to Audience Understanding
00:17:45
Speaker
alienate? Are we going to make things
00:17:46
Speaker
more difficult And to to get a little bit academic, I was thinking of good old Vygotsky, those of you who've have studied psychology, um Vygotsky's Zones of Proximal Development. So the idea being that there is a sweet spot for learning, which is it's just close enough to what you already know about.
00:18:08
Speaker
But it's not completely safe, unknown. So you're stretching somebody. But if you if you fire something too far over someone's head, it just completely misses. And I think there's a real potential for somebody. I mean, they they credit Peter foot for one of these lists. And I kind of look at the list and it's like, yeah, it looks like a bloody Peter list to me. Yeah. I didn't think much to it. but But very often they will alienate people with their approach to things because they'll be saying, you need to completely change this thing. And people are sort of going, what are you on about? That's what?
00:18:45
Speaker
where Whereas just meeting people where they are and and kind of doing the next ask up. rather than doing the ask that's in 10 steps time. um I think I'm more of a fan of, and I i think that used well these language um suggestions for us to embrace, to use the article's zone own words,
00:19:10
Speaker
I think has got huge potential because this language does create the world that we live in. There's a risk that we lecture people and proselytize people saying, actually, I think you'll find the term that you should be using is a mother cow.
00:19:26
Speaker
That's not the way to go about it. And I think in fairness to the article, I don't think they're suggesting that you lecture people. I think it's it's about gradual shifts and raising awareness.
Playful Language Changes for Unity
00:19:35
Speaker
But my point was that there could be a subliminal tone and we're making a massive assumption on where people are on their journey. And sometimes people don't even realise that they're being turned off or something by the reasons they're turning off. It's just you've got off on the wrong foot by using an abrasive tone.
00:19:53
Speaker
Just say something in praise of the list, I actually, i think it's page 15, one of the... peter lists. um I actually enjoyed the peter list of reframing harmful sayings. So these are like, you know, colloquialisms, things like um kill two birds with one stone.
00:20:14
Speaker
Now, i before reading this list, I've got a wonderful ah vegan friend who uses the suggested alternative to kill two birds with one stone, which is feed two birds with one scone.
00:20:27
Speaker
And I think that myself, as a big camp gay man, what I like about these suggested ones is that they they they could be said almost a little bit like...
00:20:39
Speaker
Yeah, this is ridiculous, isn't it? this is right Because um mean colloquialisms are, by their very nature, abstract and odd and weird. So I think there's something really joyful about saying instead of more than one way to skin a cat, more than one way to stroke a cat.
00:20:56
Speaker
It's... I think if you said it with a smile on your face, because these kind if you if you've put this forward as like, everyone must stop saying more than one way to skin a cat, that's exactly what the Daily Mail thinks us vegans are doing, that we're prioritising what they see as absurd, and we're going around policing people's diet, their clothes, their attitudes, even their language. That's what we're seen as. We're seen as militant extremists with no sense of humour. And I think to be...
00:21:27
Speaker
choy To be like, oh, it's not can of worms, it's can of beans. I think I quite like the playfulness of that. And I actually think that could create a nice shared ground with someone because it's almost a little bit like self depreciating, like you're kind of making fun of yourself.
00:21:44
Speaker
perhaps by saying something that sounds a bit silly in ah in a nice way. I would like to to say in reference to what you've been saying, Dominic, that I get your point and I do understand what you mean about... It can be a bit... I don't remember the word you used, but I don't know.
00:22:03
Speaker
I can't remember the word you used. It's not offensive, but a bit pointless sometimes, times like having discussions about... Grasive, I think I said. Yes. Yeah. And I want to say that, for example, I believe with the example of homeless, it doesn't really matter to that much if you call it homelessness or if you call it person in homelessness. I can't remember how they said it. Because the argument about how to define a thing can never be as big as solving the problem itself. We need to solve the problem, not have discussions about, should we call it disabled toilet or individual needs?
00:22:41
Speaker
Well, what we need to do maybe is as a society normalize the fact that everyone needs access to toilet, blah, blah, blah. So maybe, I don't know if you were leaning towards that, but um but I see that differently as, for example, and I want to give a specific example that happened to me. Like someone said to me, talking about someone else, he said, oh, he's a chicken.
00:23:07
Speaker
And I know what he's a chicken means, but I used my Spanish accent to say, what does that mean? And they said, oh, he's a chicken. Yeah, yeah, no, I know what it means, like a chicken, an animal, but I don't understand the behavior you're meaning. What do you mean he's a chicken? He's what?
00:23:26
Speaker
I said, oh, he's a coward. I said, oh, so in English, saying he's a chicken means this. Oh, gosh, I'd never guess that. Because in other languages, chicken, if someone is a chicken, has different meanings. So you're associated with cowardness here. That's so funny.
00:23:43
Speaker
And i did didn't say it in a which it there with me but I didn't say it in know in a bad way just to get the person thinking about why they were using that term.
00:23:54
Speaker
I didn't at any point say, you shouldn't use chicken to define coward, you should say coward. Because I think when you question why you're saying something in a nice way, it's more powerful than just saying, do not use animal to define this behaviour.
00:24:11
Speaker
If that makes sense, you know? does make sense. And there's so many different reasons they give us to why, so many different reasons. And some of the reasons why change languages are inaccuracies, like...
00:24:22
Speaker
chickens aren't necessarily cowardly. If you meet an angered cockerel, then probably saying, oh, that's a chicken creature, isn't going to be accurate at all. They could be fierce.
00:24:34
Speaker
Similarly, like, you know, are dirty as a pig. I mean, pigs are really clean animals. And It is harmful and helps us see them as so otherly and beneath us and a bit pathetic and like, oh, they're not as good as us. Of course, they're lower down the food chain.
00:24:51
Speaker
So I totally agree that a lot of these phrases are rooted in inaccuracies. Yeah, I think that my reservations with this document are more about...
Debate on Labels: Vegan vs. Animal Lovers
00:25:05
Speaker
how we get to the stage where we can be using better terminology. I would say on the face of it, just from my point of view, at least 90% of the suggestions for phrases and words to embrace ah rather than the ones that are being replaced I agree with. And if you could, if I could take a pill and I could just start using those terms straight away, i would, because i think they are, they do most of the time raise awareness, question things.
00:25:38
Speaker
I mean, when I, when I used to run a cafe and we used to peak have people coming in and, and asking for dairy, oh, do you not do dairy milk? And we we kind of had a bit of a policy it at one stage where it was like, we call it cow's milk.
00:25:53
Speaker
if If the customer is talking about dairy, that's up to them. But we're going to refer to it as cow's milk. Now, again, in terms of meeting people where they are, I'm i'm sure there were points where probably myself more than anyone else, we were being two pointed in in calling it cow's milk. In fact, I think I probably went through a phase of calling it cow's milk.
00:26:12
Speaker
as well as in like, no, this is who it's for, it's not for you. Like you can do that in an unhelpful way. You can do that in a way that sets things back However, I think, as as you said early on, Rich, using industry phrases like dairy, like beef, like, you know, whatever it is. I mean, that they they go into examples like endangered species. I mean, that's not an industry calling um anything endangered species. That's generally a term that well-meaning people are using. But they suggest the example, if it was with regards to tigers, tiger communities threatened by, and then insert...
00:26:52
Speaker
the you know, the the thing that they are being threatened by, whether it's human hunting or or whatever. And i I think like these these suggestions are good. I think it's, we've just got to be careful about how if we do think that, yes, I do prefer that as a language upgrade, how am I going to go about it and finger wagging and putting other vegans down and making people who aren't yet vegan feel bad that,
00:27:20
Speaker
That's not the way to go about That's what I mean. It's the thing about, should we call it endangered animals or blah, blah, blah. I mean, it could be a group of people getting a plane to go to another country, have dinner based on ah all the animal products you can imagine, you know, and it's the actions that matter, not the language they use in that case. So The problem shouldn't be second to the definition definition or or the words you use.
00:27:52
Speaker
um Just that. Sorry, Dominic, go ahead. Yeah, thanks, Richard. I spoke about some of it potentially being abrasive. I think some of it, there's a lot of the phrases I dislike and I think sound a bit pathetic.
00:28:04
Speaker
pathetic I am going to put that opinion out there. So like they say that like, you know, forcibly removing a ah calf from its mother, don't call that exploitation. They say, call it tearing a family apart.
00:28:19
Speaker
Now, i've spoken before about I'm a gay man and the word family is a subjective word to me. Family means different things to different people. Family, I would say, is a social construct of people. I think that to say You know, to me, a gay man, family means... that It might not mean my blood relatives. it's It's an evocative word. it's ah and And I think that I wouldn't call a mother and calf a family. I wouldn't use that word. If if somebody else did, i wouldn't... I think that it's ah it's a word open to interpretation. And I think that...
00:28:56
Speaker
Yeah, i I think that you can say, I think that you can sound a bit woolly. I make the point about not that we're trying to appease the Daily Mail readers, but we're not trying to alienate anyone, are we? We're not trying to alienate anyone.
00:29:08
Speaker
So I repeat, as well as potentially sounding abrasive, I think we can sound a bit woolly, a bit wet behind the ears. I think that if I went to some, you know, meat-eating bloke around the barbecue and I'm like, we're tearing families apart, they're going to laugh my face.
00:29:28
Speaker
Yes, very possibly. can Can I can i ask ask you a question on something you've said there, Dominic? Parent and child then, like with regards to a dairy cow and her offspring?
00:29:41
Speaker
Yeah, I think that they're more objective terms with fewer definitions. Yeah. Yeah. No. I would say parent. I found it a big word, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah.
00:29:54
Speaker
And there were other examples. I'll scan through it as you're chatting and see if I can find another one that pushed my buttons. Yeah, well, I mean, it's it's it's interesting, isn't it? Because I think sometimes we will come across suggestions for approaches to activism or or whatever, and it will...
00:30:17
Speaker
flow in quite an obvious way and you can kind of predict what will be put forward and what will be put to the wayside. Whereas I would say with this document, that there are lots of things that I'm, I think I've said, um but the majority I'm looking at going, oh yeah, great, great, great.
00:30:34
Speaker
And then you'll just see an occasion in one and you'll be like, oh gosh, that's kind of, that almost seems to be going against something that's been said earlier. I wonder why that's been included. I'm interested in what the two of you and our listeners think about the suggestion on page 14 at the top, replace animal rights activists, vegan activists, vegans and consumers. So these are these are phrases that they're saying shouldn't be used.
00:31:03
Speaker
and instead embrace the phrases animal lovers, people who care, animal allies, concerned citizens. The reason being this is inclusive. It creates a bigger us rooted in shared values, not identity labels.
00:31:18
Speaker
I can see the logic. No, it's confusing because we see it all the time. Britain is a nation ah of animal lovers. We hear that all the time when the majority of people in Britain do eat meat and, yeah, do identify as animal lovers.
00:31:35
Speaker
So I think in terms of unless you've got a long period of time with which to hold someone's attention and explain exactly what you mean by animal lovers...
00:31:46
Speaker
It's a really confusing phrase to use. And I do hear their point that even the word vegan could be so repulsive to a person. Like, oh, yeah, yeah, you know, i don't want to hear you're clearly against me.
00:32:00
Speaker
So looking for something that is more inclusive might be a good thing, but not something that's confusing. Not something that's confusing. So I agree with you as a vegan.
00:32:12
Speaker
I like knowing that if someone one says they're vegan, most of the time anyway, it means that they are and they're sharing values with me. And that's, ah you know, we are a minority. We're not an oppressed minority. We're not, we've not been historically displaced from a land or anything like that, but we are statistically a minority of people. So to find someone else that I've got that in common with is great. So the label vegan is good.
00:32:37
Speaker
I just wonder about the long term impact for animals, because this is this is all supposed to be about animals. Actually, if the term vegan is a divisive one for most of the population, forget me in my book.
00:32:53
Speaker
my vegan buddies, we're a minority. If it's divisive for most people, even even though i completely agree, Dominic, of course, people say they're animal lovers. And if if everyone went around wearing animal lover shirt, I'd be like, well, I bet you're probably not. I'm not going to talk to you about animals because I'll probably be upset because I'll find out that you eat cheese or have had a barbecue last week with steak on it whatever.
00:33:15
Speaker
But the argument they're making is it is a common point between people who are vegan and not yet vegan. So is it not the starting point of a conversation? No, come on, you do love animals.
00:33:28
Speaker
You don't want to be doing these things to them. Is it not a starting point? i that They've got a long list of potential ones and I prefer animal allies, but but for the same reason that it is a little bit more politicised allies. you know i will also say that I don't necessarily agree with the fact that vegan is a word that repels people.
Significance of 'Vegan' as an Identity Marker
00:33:49
Speaker
We've spoken on previous Enough of the Falafels about how the word vegan is often misused and people leading a plant-based diet or not even a fully plant-based diet. there Maybe this is going slightly out fashion, but some people do just like the word vegan and use it incorrectly when they're not vegan. And as much as we don't want to be the vegan police going, oh, look at you, you have sinned. I mean, that's not what I want to be doing. Like I say, the focus is animals.
00:34:17
Speaker
that That's the focus, not on like, you know. But yeah, I... I don't know. I don't know. i don't know. For example, I was thinking if you substitute the word vegan for the things, like, would you say you're a... Would I say I'm a Palestine-concerned citizen? Well, it doesn't roll off the tongue, but does it not describe your stance?
00:34:43
Speaker
It does not describe how I would feel about Palestine. And the same here. If I say I'm vegan, it's not like kind of I'm saying... To your point, Anthony, I'm a plan-based follower because it's more than that. It means a way of life.
00:34:59
Speaker
it Can you imagine? i'm I'm not Buddhist. I just follow the prescriptions of Buddha. I don't know. its Yeah, I mean, maybe I'm just in a certain mood ah this evening as we record. but I kind of feel like as, as a movement, you know, we're relatively young.
00:35:15
Speaker
Some of you, um you know, relative to the, and's no, I mean a movement compared with the span of civilization, you plonker. And, and We're doing a reasonably good job. I mean, veganism is much more prominent now than it was 10 years ago than it was 20 years ago. But at the same time, we're still a very significant minority. I don't want to just completely change things for the sake of it. But I think that the act of radically reconsidering how we go about things, I think for for the sake of doing so for half a day or a few weeks or or whatever, trying things out,
00:35:53
Speaker
I think there might be something to be said for that because that there are sticking points. There are points where we don't seem to be making the progress we'd like to see. So I don't know, maybe maybe mixing things up and dropping the word vegan or completely changing phrases that we use. um There's no magic bullet, let's be clear. There's no one thing that we can do in animal activism that by itself exists.
00:36:21
Speaker
is going to make a massive difference. But I don't know, Veganuary was just like a couple people's idea. And it's it's had a massive, massive impact.
00:36:32
Speaker
And those two people could have very easily not had that idea. So i don't know, I think just radically changing something or or or trying something we don't want to,
Replacing Euphemisms with Clear Terms
00:36:43
Speaker
I think I can use the phrase throw the baby out with a bathwater without fear of contradiction from the yeah animal think tank.
00:36:51
Speaker
But we we we we don't want to go backwards, but um sometimes mixing things up to to find new pathways might be something we'd consider. What I do like about this list very much, because it's such a long list, there are so many, and it's good that we're talking about it's good to consider things.
00:37:07
Speaker
I like all the ones that suggest... changing an everyday current use of language, which is taking the sting out the situation or using a confusing terminology and replacing it by something that isn't fluffy, isn't wo he isn't necessarily abrasive, but it's just clear.
00:37:28
Speaker
I like that. I like the ones that are suggesting let's swap this language Gentle, current phrase, something clear. Examples are changing culling to killing.
00:37:39
Speaker
like I do think you know a lot of people don't necessarily even know what culling is. um Saying 1.2 trillion animals die every year, that's a very soft way of saying it.
00:37:50
Speaker
It's only a small change to say 1.2 trillion animals are killed. every year, which is the suggestion they're making. And I agree with them. I agree that saying die, swapping that very passive phrase to a kilt is a small difference, but a noticeable difference.
00:38:08
Speaker
And we talked earlier on about calling mother and mother cows and calves families. that I didn't like that, but very similar thing. like They talk about calf weaning.
00:38:19
Speaker
And I think a lot of people wouldn't know what calf weaning is, although I have heard the phrase calf weaning. And I agree with their suggestion saying mother-baby separation. I agree with that because that is what it is.
00:38:32
Speaker
And it's clear. So I think that within their list, there are some... phrases that are done for clarity reasons, but there are some that are done for what they're putting forward as ethical reasons. And it's the ethical ones I think sometimes are leading to abrasive or woolly languages that I could see being a hindrance. I do agree with you. And why not try it? Because everything I'm saying is theory, isn't it? And the proof of the vegan pudding is in the eating.
00:39:07
Speaker
Richard, is there anything you wanted to say before we round off? No, I think you've put the nail on the hammer and everything you've said. So think it's all brilliant.
00:39:18
Speaker
Do you know what? I love your idioms. And there is one that I always remember. that is So there's the phrase a double-edged sword. And I mean, I'm not criticizing you because you know that I can't speak a word of Spanish. Me neither, to be honest.
00:39:35
Speaker
ah yeah But you whenever I think of the phrase now, a double-edged sword, you're the double-sword edge. I just think of it now. Anyway, this has certainly got us talking and at Concerned Citizens Talk, that is what we like to do. We like to talk.
00:39:52
Speaker
So we'd like to hear what you think about this.
Engaging with the Podcast and Audience Interaction
00:39:55
Speaker
I tried to do a joke there with changing the word vegan with Concerned Citizens and it just completely went over Dominic and Richard's head or they didn't find it funny.
00:40:03
Speaker
It did. It did his name. Yeah, just completely stony-faced. Let's move on. I was wanting to say to listeners that we, of course, want to hear their opinions on this, especially if you've followed the link, had a read-through, and you've got your opinions because we are just three people.
00:40:20
Speaker
Can I say one more bit of praise? I'm rounding off bit of praise, Ant, if I may. Can I say that? Go on, go on. Yeah, pronouns. They're all the rage these days, people talking about pronouns. And I really agree with this list about being clear over pronouns. That's something that I have done before. And it is a bit abrasive, but I think abrasive in a general way to change a word it to she.
00:40:42
Speaker
think that's really powerful. You could argue this in the same category as when you were saying cow milk. But I don't think that was necessarily bad when you were in there and you were saying cow milk. I think it's like one short word.
00:40:53
Speaker
But yeah, like, I think that's all right. So I'm a big fan of pronouns. I think that I liked that on this list. was like, yeah, it. I don't find that respectful. I don't find that loving.
00:41:08
Speaker
I don't find that acknowledging of life. I think that saying she instead of it is a really positive thing to to be doing. And I just want to add, following on what you're saying, Dominic, when we talk about behaviours and all this, euphemism sanitise harm, because it's what you were saying, using the word culling instead of killing, processing, all these things just take us away from the real harm that happened.
00:41:37
Speaker
Absolutely. It has certainly got us talking. And I think listeners, if you do have a look at this document, it will certainly get you thinking too. And there'll be things you agree with and things you don't agree with. And we've given our opinions, but we'd love to hear yours.
00:41:52
Speaker
So here's how to get in touch with us. To get in touch with us, just send us an email at enoughofthefalafel at gmail.com. We see ourselves as a collective. our listenership stretches all around the world and everyone's opinions, questions, feedback and ideas are what helps shape the show.
00:42:13
Speaker
Go on, send us a message today. enough of the falafel at gmail dot com cracking stuff you can as well if you want a real quick way to help the show as well as like liking us and setting up alarm bells for the for the next episode and what have you on spotify you can comment on each individual episode so once you've listened to this one if you're listening on spotify you can just leave us a little comment and all of that helps push us to the top of people's search terms when they're looking for vegan content and stuff like that on their podcast feed we're more likely to come up so uh
00:42:46
Speaker
Do do that if you would like more people to listen to enough of the falafel. But I'm falafeling on now. and need to say thank you to Dominic. I need say thank you to Richard. I want to say thank you to both of you. being very careful with my words now. Otherwise, Animal Think Tank will be after me.
00:43:03
Speaker
Richard, why don't you tell listeners when they can next hear and enough of the falafel production? So the next Enough of the Falafel episode will coming out will be available from Monday afternoon.
00:43:16
Speaker
It will be with Mark, Dominic and Julie. It will be a Vegan Week episode, our usual weekly roundup of the latest vegan and animal rights news. Anyway, that is enough of the falafel for this episode. Thank you, Richard. Thank you, Anthony, for your contributions. Thank you, everybody, for listening.
00:43:38
Speaker
I've been Dominic and you have been listening to Vegan Talk from the Enough of the Falafel Collective. I'm just wondering whether ah the animal think tank would want us to be more specific.
00:43:51
Speaker
I don't know whether falafel is kind of like, you know, just smoothing over what happens to chickpeas in the production of traditional Middle Eastern and food. but Maybe we should be, oh ah have a think about it.
00:44:04
Speaker
Mushed up. You are falafeling now. Yeah, I am. Don't worry, that the the end the end music will be playing by now. Good stuff, gang.
00:44:15
Speaker
Fantastic.
00:44:19
Speaker
This has been an Enough of the Falafel production. We're just a normal bunch of everyday vegans putting our voices out there. The show is hosted by Zencaster. We use music and special effects by zapsplatt.com.
00:44:34
Speaker
And sometimes, if you're lucky, at the end of an episode, you'll hear a poem by Mr. Dominic Berry. Thanks all for listening and see you next time.
00:45:00
Speaker
This episode may have come to an end, but did you know we've got a whole archive containing all our shows dating back to September 2023? That is right, Dominic. There's over 100 episodes on there featuring our brilliant range of different guests, people's stories of going vegan, philosophical debates, moral quandaries, and of course...
00:45:21
Speaker
around a dozen news items from around the world each week. So check back on your podcast player to hear previous episodes. And remember to get an alert for each new episode, simply click like or follow and also subscribe to the show.
00:45:36
Speaker
Thanks for your ongoing support wherever you listen to us from.