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219- Can we measure animals' suffering?
80 Plays2 days ago
...and if we can, what should we do with that information? In this episode, Shane, Dominic, Julie & Ant examine the work of the Welfare Footprint Institute (https://welfarefootprint.org/) and ask if there is value in quantifying the lived experiences of animals subjected to animal agriculture.
During the episode we refer to this article from Vox too: https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/461815/broiler-chicken-animal-welfare-footprint
As ever, we love hearing your views on the topics under discussion (or anything else!) so do drop us your thoughts via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com
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Enough of the Falafel is a community of people who love keeping on top of the latest news in the world of veganism & animal rights. With the Vegan Talk podcast, we aim to develop listeners' (& our own) thoughts around key issues affecting veganism & the animal rights movement; giving our opinions, whilst staying balanced; remaining true to our vegan ethics, whilst constantly seeking to grow & develop.
Each week we home in on one topic in particular and pick it apart in more detail. If you have a suggestion for a future show, do get in touch via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com.
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Thanks everyone for listening; give us a rating and drop us a message to say "hi"; it'll make our day!
Julie, Shane, Dominic & Anthony
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Transcript
Introduction and Host Introductions
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello everybody. Now, could we one day be able to quantify how much animals suffer in animal agriculture? And moreover, if we could, what would we do with such information?
00:00:12
Speaker
I'm Anthony. For this episode of Vegan Talk, I'm also joined by Shane, Julie and Dominic. So I think vegans go looking for trouble even when they're not looking for trouble.
00:00:24
Speaker
That's not what butter's used Brrr! Take your flat-grown meat elsewhere. We're not doing that in the state of Florida. What your protein and what about your iron levels? Should I call the media and say, hi, sorry?
Perceptions of Vegans and Social Justice
00:00:37
Speaker
They're arguing like, oh, poor woe is me.
00:00:40
Speaker
Hang on a minute. You always pick
00:00:47
Speaker
of social injustice has connection another. That's just what people think vegans eat anyway. As long as you didn't get the wee brunions with the horns, you'll be all right. Does veganism give him superpowers?
00:01:03
Speaker
No, I cannot fly around the city. I don't have laser vision. and Hello everybody, Julie here. Welcome to this episode of Vegan Talk.
00:01:14
Speaker
Thank you very much for being here. This is Shane and in the Vegan Talk episodes we hone in on one topic relating to veganism or animal rights and we discuss it in more detail.
Welfare Footprint Institute Overview
00:01:26
Speaker
These episodes are evergreen meaning that they can be revisited in and a few months or years and still be relevant and you can find all of our Vegan Talk episodes in your favorite podcast app. Yes, yes. Hello, everyone. My name is Dominic.
00:01:39
Speaker
And if you listeners are anything like me, you might not be that aware of the Welfare Footprint Institute. And that is absolutely great because we're surrounded by folks here who know far more than me. And that is what we're here to discuss today.
00:01:58
Speaker
The Welfare Vegan Institute. No, we're not. The Welfare Footprint Institute. I don't even know what it's called. We need to discuss the Welfare Footprint Institute. I can always rely on Dominic to put everyone at their ease and not feel like things are are too esoteric, which is a word that... Welfare for footprints.
00:02:23
Speaker
Indeed. Right. Come on, let's get on with it. Let's get on with it. So let's let's go for a bit of a rundown on on who the Welfare Footprint Institute are and why we should care.
Measuring Animal Suffering
00:02:35
Speaker
So they are a non-profit research organization and their aim is to quantify animal welfare impacts to inform policy, investment and purchasing decisions by using a unique metric called the Welfare Footprint Framework. So the idea is that you're trying to measure units of suffering effectively for animals they're not completely nefarious they're not saying we need more suffering the idea is if you can measure it then you can advocate for reducing it there's lots of different more detailed ways that you can you can do this and if you follow the link in our show notes you'll be able to go to their website to to see those in more detail but
00:03:18
Speaker
The key aspects of their work are objective measurement. So instead of saying, well, it looks like they're suffering a bit more than those ones, they want to objectify it, make it quantifiable all in numbers rather than just sort of being a bit more touchy-feely. The aforementioned welfare footprint framework.
00:03:37
Speaker
So they say this provides a biologically meaningful metric So time in effective state. So are you spending, how long are you spending in mild pain? That's a bit annoying, but you can still carry on with things.
00:03:52
Speaker
How long are you spending in significant pain? So like, that's the main thing that you're needing to focus on. How long are you spending in excruciating pain where you cannot focus on anything else?
00:04:02
Speaker
Obviously it's horrible stuff to think about, but you can see an argument for, for trying to shine a light on it more to improve outcomes for animals.
Collaboration to Improve Animal Welfare
00:04:11
Speaker
They say that stakeholder collaboration is important to them, so they work with academics, producers, ah by which we mean farmers, animal exploiters, policy makers, animal protection organisations, investors and certifiers, so people like dolphin-friendly tuna and all those good people that we have such high esteem for, not.
00:04:32
Speaker
They also say transparency and rigour is really important to them, impact-driven approach. So they they want to see that they are making a difference. They're not there as just a quango that just sort of sits there and doesn't really do much.
00:04:44
Speaker
So before we kind of get into the, I don't know, that the specifics of the Welfare Footprint Institute, Dominic, if I can start with you, like, do you do you think it's possible to quantify an animal's suffering?
Ethical and Feasibility Concerns
00:04:59
Speaker
Like, do do we do we think this is even something that is possible? Yeah, my starting point is I am troubled by the language being used, really. like It is sounds, as someone who, you know, this is a new thing for me discovering and finding out, like, is it even possible? And is it
00:05:23
Speaker
what is the of the the most important really? Like who who are we? Who are we to say like acceptable levels of pain? Is any level of pain an acceptable level of pain?
00:05:34
Speaker
I'm a bit on like the back foot being like, um and usually I'm all the ones speaking out for like, you know what? This group are doing a good thing. Yeah, maybe it's not turning the world fully vegan overnight, but it's a step in the right direction.
00:05:49
Speaker
But I don't know my starting point. which I'm very, very open to being directed in another way. My starting point is this feels like a misdirection of attitude to me. That's how I feel. Thank you for that.
00:06:03
Speaker
Shane, if I can come to you next, you very helpfully shared amongst the rest of us um before we recorded an article from Vox.com. We have featured stuff from them before. their Their tagline is free speech needs fearless journalism, which I really like.
00:06:19
Speaker
They've put forward an article showing how the Welfare Footprint Institute put forward a paper effectively in this journal, Nature Food, basically showing how much different kinds of suffering was being experienced by chickens in animal agriculture and actually measuring that and then saying, here's how we could change it And here's how much it would cost. And actually the kind of the headline of the article is the cheapest way to stop animal cruelty, how to prevent one hour of animal suffering for just one penny. Like the numbers were quite
Practical Applications and Costs
00:06:57
Speaker
affordable. Obviously, we're talking in very utilitarian terms here and not not really focusing on on sentimental things here.
00:07:04
Speaker
What was your take on that kind of really practical application of the Welfare Footprint Institute? Because all the numbers are there. So first, I want to call out Kenny Torella, because he was the author of this article, and he is frequently publishing wonderful articles about animals and animal advocacy in Vox.
00:07:20
Speaker
And what he looked at was how the Welfare Institute is using behavioral observations, neurological markers, and so on to quantify broiler chickens' pain.
00:07:32
Speaker
And so he found that, or in their his research, the Welfare Institute found that these chickens have 50 hours of disabling pain, which is pain so severe that it significantly limits or prevents normal activities and functioning.
00:07:46
Speaker
334 hours of what the researchers call hurtful pain or moderate pain that causes distress. 325 hours of annoying pain, which is mild but distracting discomfort. And 30 seconds of excruciating pain, which I assume is when they're being slaughtered.
00:08:02
Speaker
So if you add that up, that's about 700 hours of pain. They only live about 45 days or 1100 hours. So then you have pretty much some level of pain for all of their waking hours.
Usefulness of Quantifying Animal Pain
00:08:14
Speaker
So looking at the numbers, what they decided was that it would be more beneficial to switch to slower growing chickens because then those chickens would not face as much pain throughout their lives. But then the, believe it or not, the ah National Chicken Council has argued that that wouldn't be an environmentally sound practice because,
00:08:41
Speaker
If you have slower growing chickens, you have to raise more chickens because they wouldn't come to be able to be slaughtered as early. And so then you'd have more environmental problems.
00:08:51
Speaker
So that was kind of my takeaway. with that There was another there was another kind of suggestion, wasn't there? That, oh, actually, if you if you pay this money, like that the the quote of, oh, it's just like a penny per hour or what have you.
00:09:04
Speaker
it's it's it only reduced that suffering from like 700 hours down to 600 hours or something. So it was saying, oh, you you can pay this money, it's really cheap. But then the outcome was still, well, they're still spending over half of their life in an amount of pain, which which doesn't seem okay.
00:09:21
Speaker
So that the application there is not great. But Julie, if I can come to you, if if there was, if if these boffins in the Welfare Footprint Institute said to you, look, we can quantify your sheep, the sheep in your life, we can quantify like when they're suffering, what kind of suffering there they're having.
00:09:40
Speaker
Would that not be of use? Well, whether or not that information would be of use to me as someone who has given animals a kind and caring home for life and whether that information is of use to chickens in a factory farm are two different things, you know.
00:09:58
Speaker
i um And that isn't the ah kind of topic. so So yes, it might be of use to me. I wouldn't suspect that an outsider, i don't know if I know how much pain my sheep are in.
00:10:13
Speaker
you know what mean? And I see them every day in life twice a day. But I am pretty certain that humans in general, researchers, have not got a full understanding of an animal's suffering and pain only being part of their suffering.
00:10:30
Speaker
I think that is an absolutely fully anthropocentric point of view and that's not one that I take. I don't think it can be quantified and personally I don't think it's worthwhile trying.
00:10:46
Speaker
It's lucrative. The people who are doing this work are getting a lot of money for it. But and I don't think it's a question worth
Motives and Moral Obligations in Welfare Research
00:10:55
Speaker
asking. I don't personally think there is a right way to do the wrong thing.
00:11:00
Speaker
To my mind, animal welfare is doing the wrong thing. a little bit better in inverted commas in some cases or even just in theory but that's it's still the wrong thing as far as I'm concerned and as humans we absolutely cannot comprehend observe objectively or quantify animal suffering whatsoever ah ah My fear is that this work might involve adding the amount of research that is done on animals, which is a horrible thought.
00:11:34
Speaker
And if somebody is measuring suffering, they're not intervening to stop it or alleviate it at that moment. They're letting it happen, aren't they, so they can measure it. I just think that's horrific.
00:11:45
Speaker
And we all know that animal agricultural establishments are all different. They don't all work to agreed standards, even when the standards are really low. So you can't say, oh, well, you know, chickens in this type of factory farming setup suffer this amount because some of these farms are the heating's broken or, you know, they're in different parts of the world that have different climates or, you know, whatever it is. And there are far too many variables, I think.
00:12:15
Speaker
am To my mind, sorry, I'm just going on off on one now. a It's distasteful. How would people feel if someone decided to set up an institute to look at the amount that babies and children suffer when they are subjected to certain kinds of abuse?
00:12:34
Speaker
We don't have to do anything to make that less abstract. We just accept, don't we? you don't abuse children, it's wrong. You know, we don't have to justify that. We don't have to anything.
00:12:45
Speaker
Well, it should be the same for animals. They are saying that animal suffering is an abstract concept and they want to shift that to something measurable as if there's something wrong with something being an abstract, you know, it like it's an insult or we can't have something that's an abstract concept.
00:13:03
Speaker
Well, if they don't like abstract concepts, morality, isn't an abstract concept when it comes to things like exploitation and slaughter.
00:13:14
Speaker
That is absolutely clear cut. Yes. I think you don't need to measuring that. um I mean, this big business.
Moral Implications of Animal Welfare
00:13:23
Speaker
I've looked at who's on their board and who their advisors are and,
00:13:28
Speaker
They will be getting a lot of money for the work that they're doing. um In terms of grants, they had one and a quarter million over three years from an organisation called Open flore Philanthropy.
00:13:41
Speaker
Another nine, what was it? £980,000 from them. That must be, maybe it's dollars. No, I think it was pounds.
00:13:51
Speaker
And 50 grand from animal charity evaluators. You know, they're getting a lot of money for what they're doing. They're wanting the warning like best of both worlds, aren't they? They're wanting to appeal to what we've established before is not an uncommon sense of attitude towards animal welfare. Like, you know, if we've got some cartoons of some animals happy chickens on the side of some eggs like happy hens well that's seen as a great thing because that's all the evidence we need that the hens are happy so like that they're showing some acknowledgement that like there is an idea of oh we don't want animals to suffer but then the idea is just to shift it into you know what you know, and that they're having their cake and eat it, aren't they? They're having their cake and eat it because they're they're they're pandering to a concept of like, you know, animal welfare, when actually not even mentioning, oh, here's a possibility. What if there was no suffering?
00:14:57
Speaker
What if there was none? is that Is that in the equation? No, that's not even and a consideration that all of it's unacceptable. The starting point, the hypothesis is that some level of suffering is acceptable.
00:15:10
Speaker
That's the starting point, isn't it? I'm hearing that none of us would seed this idea ourselves. We we wouldn't initiate this ourselves.
00:15:21
Speaker
Is there nonetheless a pragmatic approach here? that is my My mind is going to, um but don't know if any of you have heard of geocaching or listeners have ever done geocaching before. but but I know geocaching.
00:15:34
Speaker
yeah You're using yeah your GPS technology. And this started before smartphones. So you had to probably buy a proper GPS device and you'd follow these coordinates and it would take you like into a bush where someone had hidden a little plastic box with a little figurine in it. And you signed a little piece of paper to say, I found the little plastic box with the figurine.
00:15:56
Speaker
And I saw this T-shirt once and someone and it said geocaching using... billions of pounds of the military's money to search in bushes for plastic boxes or whatever. And the point was, people wanting to do geocaching could never fund this themselves.
00:16:13
Speaker
However, they've managed to do derive some benefit from this thing that the military has put in place, these big satellites, to take something from it. We're not wanting to see this idea of quantifying the exact units of pain that is experienced by a broiler chicken.
00:16:31
Speaker
However, the fact that there are big bucks out there and there are people doing it, is there something from those findings that we can use as advocates for animals?
00:16:43
Speaker
Or is it so abhorrent that we want nothing to do with it? I just kind of, I i feel like the the latter perspective, I i don't want to say it's churlish, but I just, Looking at this Vox article that Shane shared earlier in the week, it does show that chickens have doubled in size due to animal ag in the last 75 years.
00:17:04
Speaker
It does say in quantifiable terms, a chicken's life in animal ag is miserable. Do we not share this information on principle? Can we be canny about how we use it?
00:17:16
Speaker
But we knew that before this institute did all that. We knew that anyway. But for for the sake of animals currently suffering and future animals suffering, we need more people to know that. So if the Welfare Footprint Institute is putting things out there that gives a number behind these things and that makes a headline, like is that not doing some good i know we would it doesn't sound like we're designing it i'm going to argue no it isn't because the starting point is that some level of suffering is acceptable that's the that's the that's the starting point at no point is it like so let's get rid of all of it and there are other things that we can show to people that do show we do not need to wear animals we do not need
00:18:05
Speaker
to eat animals. We do not need animals for our entertainment. you know There's plenty of other sources. you know ah you know i live in England where we have a load of wonderful vegan festivals with really accessible information. And I i think because the information here is so skewed in one direction that suffering on A-level is acceptable, that that poisons all the data.
00:18:37
Speaker
Because, you know, i wouldn't I wouldn't choose this to show anybody. We can find the same information from elsewhere without that bias. Yeah, because it's not even just about the fact that the suffering is inevitable.
00:18:51
Speaker
It's that animal agriculture is inevitable and it is not. And the other thing that made me part company with them was I looked up some of the research topics and articles and I saw the phrase humane slaughter and I just thought, ah, get out here.
00:19:08
Speaker
you know We all know that's an absolute freaking fairy story. So for anybody who's a so-called intelligent academic to be going around, bandying around that phrase, they are not intelligent as far as I'm concerned. I don't care how many PhDs they've got.
00:19:24
Speaker
Humane slaughter is an absolute myth. And the other thing that their measurement of suffering and whatever else they're measuring utterly ignores, and they own this,
00:19:36
Speaker
is that they don't take into account premature death and actual death. So animals losing their lives doesn't count to them, you know?
00:19:48
Speaker
And actually, I think that's the ultimate in suffering, is to lose your life. So no, um I am happy that to be called churlish.
00:20:00
Speaker
I came to this with a very open mind. I thought, oh, this looks interesting. Yes, any ammunition is good ammunition. We need to, it's always very tempting when you're trying to make the world go vegan to think that everybody will agree with you if you just find the right words. They really do sort of think along the same lines as you. You just need to find the right way to just get through to them and persuade them.
00:20:24
Speaker
But the older I get, and I'm getting very old, the more I realise that some people's brains are just wired totally differently and they will never be changed in their point of view when it comes to things like animals and food that they like and eat and blah blah, all of that.
00:20:43
Speaker
So I thought, oh, well, here is something maybe for these totally intransigent individuals. But the more I looked into it the more I just thought this stinks to me.
00:20:54
Speaker
And that one of their advisors, the man who advises him on the shrimp business, I am pretty sure he is somebody who's connected with this shrimp welfare project.
00:21:07
Speaker
And they sell devices to kill shrimps, but to kill them in a bit of a nicer way, folks? No. ah It's just, I could save them so much money. All this money that they're getting to do this work could be channeled into helping farmers out of animal agriculture altogether, never am mind making the cages a little bit bigger. Yeah.
00:21:32
Speaker
Can I ask, um Shane, like we we spoke before recording about each of our stances on this. And like I think very often like an an approach that that many contributors on our podcast will will take will will be one that could be called abolitionist as opposed to welfarist. The latter being, well, there are animals alive right now.
00:21:55
Speaker
and we want to improve their welfare. We want them their lives to be less crap than they would have been otherwise. Would you be happy to explain, like from your point of view, why the latter, that that the welfarist point of view, doesn't sit comfortably? Because I don't know that it... Often these are the filters that we will talk about news stories or topics about, but we don't necessarily go into why we might hold that position ourselves.
00:22:24
Speaker
So from my perspective, someone who is a welfarist is someone who wants to make incremental changes to the lives that animals in a factory farm or a laboratory live to make their lives better, since in that way, create a path to ending the animal suffering.
Incremental Improvements vs. Ending Suffering
00:22:42
Speaker
But I think that what we found is that doesn't work because there's been so many campaigns, especially, i mean, and like in California, they've had campaigns to end crates for pigs gestation or ah battery cages for chickens.
00:22:55
Speaker
And what happens is you have companies like McDonald's or Burger King or whatever who agree to these, and then they end up going back on it after time passes yeah or they, do they act like they're going to do something. But then what really happens is, is that the reality of chickens being like free range is is just as bad as being, or almost as bad. i mean, how do you know what's bad as being in a battery cage? Yeah.
00:23:17
Speaker
So I think that these little small incremental changes just don't work. And I also think that they're just a slippery slope because you also have people already who eat meat who are going to say to you and who have said to me for sure, oh, well, i I eat pigs, but it's just one bad day for the pig because they're buying into the propaganda that farms are a wonderful place.
00:23:38
Speaker
So now you can look at this information that they're that they're getting and and saying, oh, but if we have slower growing pigs or whatever, then their lives will be better. And then they'll say, oh, well, now the pig only faces X days of hurtful pain and Y days of annoying pain. so So what I'm doing is fine because it's no longer this many days of hurtful pain.
00:23:59
Speaker
So I just think that the only way really forward, and we have limited resources as a movement, is to advocate for completely ending it, ending suffering of animals.
00:24:10
Speaker
that That finite resources part is is part of it, isn't it? I mean, and and Julie, you really well put how the the fact that actually researching this stuff to get this data is arguably making stuff worse for animals in in the process too. But it's not like these numbers have just landed out of the ether and and no one's had to spend any time and no animals have been used in the collating of this data.
Welfare Schemes and Consumer Misunderstanding
00:24:37
Speaker
Like if it just landed, I think there could be an argument that, oh, well, that, you know, somebody who won't watch an animal ag video, who won't listen to this, for a ru look, here's some numbers, look at these numbers, will that persuade you?
00:24:51
Speaker
I think then it it could have an incremental impact on on some on some people. but but as The danger is it becomes a little bit like the RSPCA Assured Scheme and the Red Tractor Scheme in the UK that you might get some meat in the supermarket that's only a two or something like that. And people go, oh, this is higher welfare. Oh, well, we can have this. This is all good.
00:25:16
Speaker
No, it doesn't. isn't you know so yeah it's still legitimizing and validating the whole idea that humans can dish out exploitation abuse and slaughter to animals and even own the definition of the extent of that and be the judge of how bad that is and justify it by saying oh good for us look we're doing it a little bit better and all the rest of it It is very, it is total anthropocentrism and I hate it.
00:25:50
Speaker
It is really confusing for people who are at the start of an animal welfare journey or just, you know, don't consider themselves part of it. The number of times I've had labels, like you say, like the, the,
00:26:06
Speaker
sort of dots and numbers that currently exist. And, you know, people go, oh, does this mean this is something that you can eat over like a slab of beef? Or it's like, can you eat this then? Because this has got the dots on it. And it's like, no, no, it no, no.
00:26:20
Speaker
he says It's just... really confusing. I'm i'm wondering, like Dominic, you're you're ah you the salvager of lost causes and and you know you can you can see some positives in things.
00:26:34
Speaker
i'm just I'm just wondering if there is a crumb of comfort to somebody from the Welfare Footprint Institute somewhere? Is there some practical... Just because, like, we came across them because of the work that they'd done on trout suffering. It was a news story we reported back in June.
00:26:54
Speaker
And they'd done this thing on trout suffering, and it it kind of raised the profile of it. And obviously, like like we've said, all of the things that they were suggesting were basically as bad.
00:27:08
Speaker
but it did raise the profile of it. is Is that that the best crumb of comfort we can take, that sometimes it will make a
Recognizing Pain Across Species
00:27:15
Speaker
headline? I think that speciesism that we're all conditioned into to having, you know, from the our earliest age, that that, you know, we see some lives as so different to to others, I think that a crumb of comfort is that some people wouldn't even acknowledge that fish could feel pain.
00:27:37
Speaker
Nirvana say it, Kurt Cobain, it's okay to eat fish because they don't have any feelings. Like, I think that they're not just looking at those lives, though, they're looking at chickens and cows. And I think that the most meatiest of meat eaters already knows that if you, you know, attack a pig,
00:27:59
Speaker
the the the reason the pig's recoiling is because it's experiencing pain so i think that the yeah maybe there's a difference if we're we're at the such basic level as to like can a trout feel pain then yeah that is a positive but oh my gosh that is soul destroying to think that we're at that level yeah yeah it can I struggle to accept that there is anyone who doesn't know that a pig cannot feel pain.
00:28:31
Speaker
So no, i don't I don't find many crumbs of comfort in this. I've not i've not been impressed. Well, thank you, Dominic. Thank you, Shane. And thank you, Julie, for your comments on that. That is really, really fabulous. Obviously, the content that we were focusing on we wouldn't say was fabulous, but I think hearing that insightful commentary ah will have brought value to our lovely listeners. So thank you very much for that.
Closing Remarks and Podcast Engagement
00:28:57
Speaker
And we want to remind everyone that we love hearing from people and to get in touch, you can email us at enoughofthefalafel at gmail.com. You most certainly can. So the next Enough of the Falafel episode will be coming out available from Monday.
00:29:15
Speaker
It is going to be our vegan week, which is where we have the usual weekly roundup of the latest vegan and animal rights news.
00:29:27
Speaker
Anyway, that's enough of the falafel for this episode. Thanks Dominic, Shane and Anthony for your contributions. Thank you everyone for listening.
00:29:39
Speaker
I've been Julie and you've been listening to Vegan Talk from the Enough of the Falafel Collective.
00:29:50
Speaker
This has been an Enough of the Falafel production. We're just a normal bunch of everyday vegans putting our voices out there. The show is hosted by Zencaster. We use music and special effects by zapsplap.com.
00:30:05
Speaker
And sometimes, if you're lucky, at the end of an episode, you'll hear a poem by Mr Dominic Berry. Thanks all for listening and see you next time.
00:30:31
Speaker
This episode may have come to an end, but did you know we've got a whole archive containing all our shows dating back to September 2023? twenty twenty three That is right, Dominic. There's over 100 episodes on there featuring our brilliant range of different guests, people's stories of going vegan, philosophical debates, moral quandaries, and of course...
00:30:52
Speaker
around a dozen news items from around the world each week. So check back on your podcast player to hear previous episodes. And remember to get an alert for each new episode, simply click like or follow and also subscribe to the show.
00:31:07
Speaker
Thanks for your ongoing support wherever you listen to us from.