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209- Walking dogs is OUT, but eating horses is IN: Mailbag Episode #8
96 Plays26 days ago
The Iranian government may be cracking down on dog walking, but wild horses are on the menu in the USA and Danish Zoos are accepting elderly pets...as food for the carnivores. In other news, our 'Classic Episode' rerun of vegetarians being triggering for vegans...triggered a vegan!
Paul & Ant sift through the mailbag & discuss your correspondence. Thanks Shane for your prolific volume of messages towards this show!
To feature on our next mailbag episode, or to get in touch in general, send us a message via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com
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Enough of the Falafel is a community of people who love keeping on top of the latest news in the world of veganism & animal rights. With the Vegan Talk podcast, we aim to develop listeners' (& our own) thoughts around key issues affecting veganism & the animal rights movement; giving our opinions, whilst staying balanced; remaining true to our vegan ethics, whilst constantly seeking to grow & develop.
Each week we home in on one topic in particular and pick it apart in more detail. If you have a suggestion for a future show, do get in touch via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com.
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Thanks everyone for listening; give us a rating and drop us a message to say "hi"; it'll make our day!
Paul & Anthony
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Transcript
Introduction to Vegan Talk Mailbag Special
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello everybody, goodness me, it has been so, so long since our last mailbag special that the mail is piling up, we can barely open the door. We had better record another mailbag special and joining me, Anthony, for this episode of Vegan Talk is my good pal and co-host Paul.
00:00:21
Speaker
So I think vegans go looking for trouble even when they're not looking for trouble. That's not what butter's used for. Brrr! Take your lab-grown meat elsewhere. We're not doing that in the state of Florida. What your protein and what about your iron levels? Should I call the media and say, hi, sorry? They're arguing like, oh, poor woe is me, oh no.
00:00:41
Speaker
Hang on a minute, you always pick fire.
00:00:48
Speaker
of social injustice has connection another. That's just what people think vegans eat anyway. As long as you donna get the wee brunions with the horns you'll be all alright. Does veganism give him superpowers?
00:01:03
Speaker
No I cannot fly around the city. I don't have laser vision.
Why are Vegans Triggered by Vegetarians?
00:01:08
Speaker
Hello everyone, as I said at the top, my name is Anthony. If this is your first edition of Vegan Talk or of any Enough of the Flaffle podcast, welcome.
00:01:17
Speaker
Great having you with us and indeed anyone. Thank you for joining us. We definitely wouldn't do this without you. Hello everyone, this is Paul. Yeah, so Vegan Talk, this is different to our Vegan Week episodes that we have where we look at the week's news typically, um sort of 10 or so stories.
00:01:37
Speaker
Vegan Talk, essentially where we focus in on a particular issue or subject and this time it's one of our intimately regular mailbag shows ah that we'll be going through today.
00:01:49
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. and And any of our vegan talk shows, the kind of theory with them is that they don't go out of date. So um you you'll see this is episode 200 and something.
00:02:00
Speaker
um So about half of our episodes are all vegan talk ones. So you can go back through the archive, listen to old ones, and they shouldn't be out of date, even if you're listening way out into the future. um But as Paul says, we are going to be reading out your emails and questions in this show. We've got three that we're going to focus on.
00:02:19
Speaker
um and one of them focuses on two particular news stories. So we've got quite a lot to get into. So read out the first one. It is from Guillemé Carlos. I really apologize if I've pronounced either of those names wrong.
00:02:34
Speaker
Here is the email. It says, hello folks first of all i wanted to thank you for the wonderful job you've been doing for veganism through the podcast for the last couple of years you bunch a great oh in excellent start to an email ah definitely got our attention ah just listened to the repost of episode forty three and gosh that was triggering the ah episode was, why are vegans so triggered by vegetarians?
00:02:58
Speaker
Guillemet goes on to say, recently I've been thinking a lot about this subject, so the episode had perfect timing. I feel sometimes i get triggered by vegetarians more than omnis, just because veggies know the pain and suffering involved in the meat industry, but at the same time,
00:03:16
Speaker
They lack the connection or willingness to make the next logical step. How can you be concerned with the horrors of death but turn a blind eye to slavery and exploitation?
00:03:29
Speaker
Someone mentioned in the episode that the lack of receiving no made them spoiled and I firmly agree with that. At the very moment they got annoyed, F the animals.
00:03:40
Speaker
especially in today's world when we have a bunch of plant-based options on the market. I know the taste is not the same, but the same goes for goat and buffalo cheese, and they still buy that.
00:03:52
Speaker
Am I being too critical? I don't think so. Thanks for listening to my rant. And then he finally adds, big shout outs to NARA, National Animal Rights Association, here in Ireland for pushing a massive campaign on the ban of pig farming.
00:04:08
Speaker
Civil society and politicians are quite engaged on this one and they deserve to be recognised. Thanks again for the hard work, for the cause and for the animals.
Challenges and Opportunities for Vegetarians
00:04:19
Speaker
Now, Paul, you were on that original episode with Kate and Julie and myself, as I recall. This email raises some some interesting episodes, but also it was a year and a half since we recorded that. So youre your feelings, your experiences might have changed.
00:04:35
Speaker
like what What did you make to that email? Yeah, I mean, it was, I mean, this is, this this I remember the episode, it was a really good one, and and I think I remember saying that, you know, I understand why, exactly for the reasons that are mentioned in this email, but why people think you all might, you know, if it's kind of a case of going over hurdles in a hurdle race, it's almost like you've got to the got to the last hurdle, but you just youre just kind of not willing to jump over it, you want to run around it, or kind of ignore that it's there, and We assume in most cases people will be aware of the cruelty and suffering that's associated to, say, milk or eggs or honey, etc.
00:05:15
Speaker
um and And I think probably for the majority, I'm guessing that that is the case. But there are those that won't be aware of it or don't know the full... the full wins and outs of it. And then, you those people might need some help understanding that.
00:05:29
Speaker
And I also reflected on, and I think I might've mentioned this in the show and see how, you know, we know, i certainly know most people that are vegan didn't let go straight vegan. They went,
00:05:41
Speaker
vegetarian and vegan and then you know we've talked about our own journeys um and and you know the awareness being open to kind of actually recognizing the suffering that's involved in those industries to actually put it side by side to something very visually obviously obvious like meat and then saying yes you know i can equate these two things therefore i should do neither of them rather than just like meat on a plate dead animal easy to comprehend milk what's a drink and you know um Nothing's nothing's killed for it as far as I can see until you start obviously understanding the process and what does happen there.
00:06:15
Speaker
So, yeah, I don't think my views changed. I think it's I understand that the frustration. But as I think I mentioned also on that episode, it's like ah maybe try and turn that frustration into seeing it as a lower hanging fruit.
00:06:30
Speaker
Good phrase maybe here to try and to try and help. those people on the journey to being vegan because they should be more open to the idea of it um in theory, but you just have to kind of work out there their touch points for it, you know, um and also the resistance points because, you know, we've talked around the whole, you know, well, I like i like my cheese too much or, you know, that that kind of thing. that And it's kind of introducing other products and getting people to try these things. And, yeah, so you might have to kind of help rather than
00:07:03
Speaker
just get angry with him Yes, I i ah really welcome and value that the email that Guillemet has sent. There are points that I disagree with. i I don't think it's necessarily correct to say that the all veggies do know and understand the true extent of of suffering.
00:07:24
Speaker
I know I certainly didn't. Some will, you know, some will have had great advocacy for Like you're suggesting that, you know, vegans have said, oh, you're vegetarian. Let me tell you a bit more because you'll probably want to be vegan.
00:07:36
Speaker
And they are are willingly putting their head in the sand. But I think a lot of people don't. And in terms of the point of kind of like reaching a certain point and then saying, oh, fuck the animals, you know, what my taste buds are more important or whatever.
00:07:51
Speaker
I'm not excusing ignorance or putting your head in the sand or or kind of being in a bit of denial. But I think there is a difference between saying like, ah I feel a bit awkward asking for a different option. i'm just going to eat this cheese or this egg.
00:08:07
Speaker
I think there's a difference between that and saying, well, ah know I'm supposed to be conscious with my choices, but I don't care. I'm going to still keep eating eggs. Fuck their hens. They don't matter that much.
00:08:18
Speaker
you know that there will be some people that think things like that but i i think probably the the biggest fallibility that the vegetarians face is the fact that they're human beings and and we're not perfect and we will we'll do mental gymnastics and that makes no difference to the animals and that's why we should keep campaigning for people to go further but i i think um I think it's tempting to say that it's a, oh, fuck the animals. I'm not so sure, but that's just my opinion and listeners can...
00:08:51
Speaker
can send ah ah reply to the reply and and say, no, Anthony, you're wrong. And encourage you to do so. We've got other emails to get
Ethical Dilemmas: Wild Horses and Unwanted Pets
00:09:00
Speaker
to. So I'm going to suggest that we press on and read out our next one.
00:09:04
Speaker
And that is from Shane. um Shane is from Houston in Texas. And in some parts of the world, Shane would be a male name, um but in this instance, Shane is a female. And Shane, she says, Hey Anthony and the Enough of the Falafel team.
00:09:22
Speaker
I know you're on vacation right now and I hope you're enjoying the time off. I read two articles in the Washington Post yesterday that I wanted to share before I forget. Each article touched on the fact that people are fine with eating some animals and not others.
00:09:37
Speaker
One article is about eating wild horses in the American West. The other is one you probably heard about because the BBC World News covered it. It's about a Danish zoo seeking unwanted pets to feed their carnivores. I actually hadn't come across that one.
00:09:52
Speaker
until you shared that one, Shane. So thank you for sending it across to us. Shane goes on to say, it's disheartening to see people doubling down on eating animals, not by challenging why they eat some and not others, but arguing it's okay to eat all of them.
00:10:08
Speaker
That's obviously not the direction we need to go. Anyway, I thought these might make for an interesting topic or news item, but I'm sure you'll have a lot to cover when you get back from your holiday. Well, we are recording this as our first recording session since being back off our break, Shane. So you've jumped to the front of the queue there.
00:10:26
Speaker
um Shane finishes off saying, thank you so much for your podcast. I listen to every episode. I'm living in Houston, Texas. Houston is great, but I loathe Texas and the Republicans and don't know many vegans.
00:10:39
Speaker
I also learn so much from you guys. I learned all about Morris dancing after you mentioned it. Sorry about that, Shane. I'm sure there's far more valuable things you could be filling your brain with other than my petty hobbies.
00:10:51
Speaker
Anyway, let's learn a little bit about these articles. There's obviously links in the show notes for listeners to read the full articles themselves, but we'll summarize them now.
00:11:03
Speaker
So the first one is talking about eating well. wild horses in the West of America. The author basically says, well, why why do we eat cows and pigs, but not horses and dogs?
00:11:15
Speaker
And they say it's down to custom, down tradition. We're used to it. That's all. And the author goes on to say, we should absolutely positively eat the wild horses that are wreaking havoc in the American West.
00:11:29
Speaker
They say the horses are a problem and have been for decades. They mention land getting overgrazed and horses struggling to find enough to eat. They say in the far past four years, the BLM, which is the Bureau of Land Management, has rounded up just over 46,000 horses.
00:11:47
Speaker
Less than half of them found adoptive homes and the rest of them live out their lives in BLM holding facilities. Right now, there are about 60,000 horses in those facilities costing about $100 million dollars per year to maintain. The article goes on to say that the Bureau of Land Management does use some contraceptive methods on a relatively small percent of the wild herd, but shooting contraceptive darts and rounding up animals for vaccines is difficult with far-flung herds.
00:12:19
Speaker
They say the idea that we should eat overpopulated animals that are doing environmental damage is mostly non-controversial. for animals that aren't horses, such as lionfish, Asian carp, wild pigs, and Canada geese.
00:12:33
Speaker
Finally, they say that humans can, with care, give horse a more humane death in a slaughterhouse than it's likely to get in the wild. The way that we raise livestock in the US has, for the most part, lost its moral compass, and that's because we've become inured to keeping animals in small cages or overpopulated barns,
00:12:54
Speaker
Interestingly, the end, which I don't know if this will be the first point we talk about, Paul, they say, if you're thinking about ways to reduce the impact of your diet and your only objection here, i.e. to eating horses, is visceral, maybe it's time to reconsider.
00:13:08
Speaker
If that seems like a big ask, I've got some vegans who would like a word. Not quite sure what they mean by that. Maybe we'll ignore that for now. But what what were your takeaways from this article, Paul?
00:13:20
Speaker
Obviously, we don't agree. Yeah, i mean... With the author, with the author. Yeah, with the author, yeah. I think it actually raises some... It actually recognises some very significant vegan arguments. So obviously it recognises that people are prone to holding this view of loving animals, but actually separating animals out into animals that are food, animals that are pets. Yeah. And we we talk about that all the time, don't we, about how, you know, commodification of animals seems to allow people to kind of go, yeah, but it's a pig and that's that's ham or bacon or whatever.
00:13:53
Speaker
Whereas, no, but my dog is my part of the family and, you know, he's got his own place on the sofa. and he's got a personality and you know because pigs haven't obviously not um but yeah so it's quite interesting that it kind of recognizes that and it does with that last point as well which we'll come on to like you say but i think the difference is it's kind of made the same argument but reached ah the total opposite conclusion whereas they say well because of this let's see everything and we've said because of the same argument, let's not eat anything like that.
00:14:24
Speaker
So it's almost like it's the same argument with two completely opposite. um So I suppose both arguments recognise the ridiculousness of holding those two different views, you know, the cognitive dissonance.
00:14:37
Speaker
there So on that we'd agree, but it's just kind of like, what is your conclusion based on that observation? Us is like, well, if you if you love dogs, one type of animal, then why not love all animals? Theirs is, well, if you eat this type of animal, you should be willing to eat every kind of animal. So yeah it's it's kind of an interesting interesting one,
00:14:58
Speaker
I think the biggest difference, you're you're right, that there there are similarities, but then the the kind of differences do kind of get highlighted. that There's also something, and and I think one thing that's really interesting that I see a lot in people is this narrative that human civilisation is on a constant journey of getting better the whole time. We're getting wiser all the time.
00:15:26
Speaker
We couldn't possibly go back on a decision. Like, the only way is to move forward. And I think, like, when they're talking about, oh, the horses have become a problem, um and, you know, we we couldn't possibly renege our power, our dominion of things.
00:15:43
Speaker
Like, the only way forward is one where we continue or even increase our dominion. like that it It seems there are very few people out there who are willing to be humble enough to say, actually, we fucked a lot of things up and maybe what we need to do is just lead things to happen because, you you know, animals have always been suffering horrible deaths in the wild. I mean, ah up until really quite recently, humans would starve. and And of course, there are still millions, tens and hundreds of millions
00:16:22
Speaker
of of humans across the world who still are malnourished and, and, and suffer really horrible deaths, kind of similar to a, a situation where there's, there's too many horses in a, in an area or whatever. But like, really, is it, is it the worst thing in the world of,
00:16:38
Speaker
the The area is overpopulated and some of the horses starve. Yeah. Like, ah ah I don't want a horse to starve, but but I can't control nature. I don't want to control nature. And that has always been part of nature.
00:16:53
Speaker
Like, what why are so obsessed with with just... and Again, like with a lot of these stories, it doesn't really, know, it says about it becoming out of control and was it was it um a menace or something like that?
00:17:05
Speaker
But it again, it doesn't say why. it It almost feels like, oh, if we say it's a problem that is like generic, no real evidence to it, that's a springboard to then say, well, we can do what we want then now, really, whether that's, um you know, the what we've covered many stories of saying, oh, population out of control, um ah will set up a a very and kind shooting people from shooting shooting animals from helicopters situation.
00:17:33
Speaker
It's like, you know, um like you say, what, why not? Why not let it go on? And I mean, I think that does come to does come out in the article later on because they say, oh, well, um, They try and, interestingly, they try and play the environmental card. Again, quite a vegan argument, I guess, saying, well, there's all this output of ah gases from these horses. thinking, you're that worried about that, then that's where you need to start talking about the abandonment of eating meat rather than eating all the meat, because...
00:17:59
Speaker
you know you've got farm-produced meat that is producing all all this methane as well as these horses. like Surely the argument there is to cease all animal eating. If that's your argument... There's rather a lot more cows in animal ag than there are wild horses.
00:18:16
Speaker
and and And if we're talking about species getting out of control, like which species is it that's flying up in helicopters, you know firing contraceptive darts and...
00:18:28
Speaker
and and you know, come on, come on, like, let's let's take a look at o ourselves. There's a very clear contender for out-of-control species. Yeah, know and also our species, ah you know, ah impacting on the land that these animals could have as part of their yeah But no, we want to use them for other purposes as well.
00:18:47
Speaker
So yeah, that's an interesting one, I think, in terms of a slightly, again, trying to use another argument we might be quite familiar with. That one doesn't, that one seems to be a bit more and tenuous, though, I think. It does all come down to control, doesn't it? I think that's what it's about, really. It's kind of like, and it's about money as well. They're talking about the the cost of this.
00:19:06
Speaker
Do they all need to be in in in these sort of cotton wool type
Zoo Practices and Animal Treatment Hypocrisy
00:19:10
Speaker
environments? I don't know. i mean... yeah I wouldn't want to see him like loads them die in the wild or just come out on the streets kind of thing. But do we do we do we need to be that kind of protector? these are These are wild animals, ultimately. And, you know, we're very prone to kind of trying to make them into sort of a more more like kind of pets and subjects, really, aren't we? So, yeah, I think that's it.
00:19:31
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Let's move on to the other story that Shane has sent us then. So... This is a Danish zoo, Olborg Zoo. i went on a Danish exchange when I was 15. Very jolly it was too. And we we went to Olborg. I'm probably pronouncing it wrong. So I clearly didn't learn very much.
00:19:47
Speaker
Anyway, they're seeking unwanted pets to feed their predators. ah The zoo said donated pets would be gently euthanized to help replicate the food chain.
00:19:59
Speaker
of its animals. They're accepting chickens, rabbits, guinea pigs and horses. No annoying children, interestingly, from humans. Online, critics balked at the idea of pets being fed to zoo animals, calling it a cheap publicity stunt, disrespectful and sick.
00:20:19
Speaker
Now, experts say that donation can be a more cost-effective and natural way of feeding zoo animals. I don't think it really takes an expert to say this. Cheaper for you to give zoos animals for free. But there we are. Thank you, Mr. or Mrs. Expert.
00:20:35
Speaker
They say that these zoo animals might otherwise be fed meat from commercial sources that can come from animals raised in poor conditions, such as zoos, perhaps. um In a statement, spokeswoman Pia Nielsen said the practice of feeding carnivorous animals with smaller livestock has been used at Alborg Zoo for many years and is common in Denmark.
00:20:58
Speaker
Now, a vet at Copenhagen Zoo, also in Denmark, they said that the initiative by Olbog Zoo is logical because it gives dying animals a quieter death than actually going to a slaughterhouse.
00:21:11
Speaker
He added that some of the backlash to Olbog Zoo was because of this culture, which I think comes from the over-romanticising nature and the world that Disney-fying things a little bit.
00:21:25
Speaker
Zoos in other countries also accept donations of livestock or deceased animals to feed their predators. The Wild Spirit Wolf Sanctuary in New Mexico, for example, states on its website that it accepts donations of livestock that have passed away or need to be humanely euthanised to feed their wolves.
00:21:42
Speaker
The Alaska Zoo in Anchorage recently put out a call for frozen meat and fish donations for its animals. Mimi Bekechi, Vice President for the UK and Europe at the Animal Rights Group, Peter, unsurprisingly,
00:21:58
Speaker
Disagreed said that predators should not be in captivity in the first place. Just for some context, it's not been clear from this article how the donated animals would be euthanised.
00:22:09
Speaker
On Facebook, the zoo said it did not administer lethal injections because the liquid could accumulate in the body. and should not be given to the animals, i.e. the animals that have been killed, the lethal injection would stay in them so the animals eating them then could be getting that injection. and It said trained professionals work to make the deaths as quick and painless as possible.
00:22:33
Speaker
Obviously, Paul, from a vegan animal rights perspective, We've not really got sympathy with zoos and their methods and what they're standing for and a lot of the PR, humane washing that goes on.
00:22:47
Speaker
However, interesting again to see people's responses to this. I guess our first article that Shane shared, the author was anticipating certain responses from readers, whereas here we are genuinely seeing responses from readers on social media so it comes with ah a big dose of hyperbole what do you make of this one like if if we should we to start with assume that so you know we're not going to question zoos and their motives to start with and then perhaps we will we will do so but if we take zoos as a given is this fair game
00:23:26
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's a difficult one because I really struggle to get past that without saying, but, you know, we wouldn't have to get get to this point if we didn't have zoos. None of us kind of, you know, were very actively against zoos So it it, in a way, it sort of makes it difficult to open one's mind to look at it.
00:23:46
Speaker
neutrally because you've kind of almost said well zoo shouldn't be there in the first place however if you try and do that i can see how this argument could play out with some people who think oh i may be helping the zoo out i like the zoo i'm gonna i've got this but you know old chicken or whatever like that that i for whatever reason um i don't know Maybe in the nicest way, they've been to the vets and they've said, this chicken's only got a week to live. We recommend that you euthanise because it's got a horrible disease.
00:24:16
Speaker
You know, that's could that might be a ah might be ah almost a i don' idealistic kind of scenario there. Other times you're just thinking, people are going, oh, I don't really want this animal anymore. i'll just I was gonna going to stick it in that carry a carrier bag and stick it in a canal, but maybe I'll give it to the zoo sort of thing.
00:24:33
Speaker
um You know, don't know. arguably maybe a better outcome but again we still don't really know like you said about what is this mechanism it feels it sounds like almost they're gonna like oh yeah we'll stun them and then uh they'll still be twitching a little bit so the animal eating them will feel like it's kind of hunting and it'll be all good you know great so yeah it it still feels um yeah it's very difficult for me to get behind it i'm trying to be objective about it but it it's never going to be yeah great idea Well, I think one thing that I really felt undermined the the vet from Copenhagen Zoo who is who's commenting on this. Obviously, it's not the zoo that they work at.
00:25:14
Speaker
But the saying like, well, you know, this is logical. And a lot of people have this romantic, Disney-fied view of the world. And I thought, hang on, you work for a zoo, mate.
00:25:25
Speaker
Like and these zoos are ah like that their prime mission is to romanticize their mission. like I'm on Copenhagen Zoo's website at the moment, and it's full of jolly little things that the animals are getting up to. And they talk about their their mission, their purpose is ah as a zoo. And that, oh, oh where we're breeding endangered animals, and we're doing research and conservation. It's like, No, no, no Like, who's romanticising things? Who's PR washing?
00:25:56
Speaker
Like, it's it's you yourselves. Don't talk such nonsense. it's Sorry, I'll say, in this we should probably draw comparisons to the very similar sort of stories we've had not that long ago now where zoos have had i've taken the decision to kill humans.
00:26:13
Speaker
Again, what they say is oh overpopulation of
Cultural Control: Iran's Ban on Dog Walking
00:26:16
Speaker
a certain animal. And these are usually not animals that are endangered. It's just like, oh, we only wanted, you know, 20 squirrels. We've got 100 squirrels now. Or we need to get rid of some squirrels.
00:26:26
Speaker
We might as well feed them to the animals, you know, of make make use of them because they're just objects, obviously. So there's there's definitely comparisons with what the zoos themselves are willing to do. And, you know, this almost expands out that approach to sort of, oh, well,
00:26:42
Speaker
once this animal has become, does not, does no longer serve its purpose as a pet or an entertainment, you know, this is the kind of worst, more worst case scenario rather than genuinely suffering from illness or whatever.
00:26:54
Speaker
Um, or more, oh, it's a bit old now. We might well, know, bin it off basically. Um, yeah, it's kind of, it plays into that narrative, doesn't it? I think. Yes. I, I have mentioned before on the show, I,
00:27:07
Speaker
did volunteer for about six months at Whipsnade Zoo when I was 20 years old. I was vegetarian at the time, thought I was doing a good thing. And they talked about certain things that they would and wouldn't do. And one thing that they wouldn't do is put live prey that's bigger than a certain point. So they they might put live crickets in a reptile's enclosure.
00:27:33
Speaker
um But they wouldn't put a live chicken or a live deer into the enclosure of a carnivore predator. And again, i kind of think, well, why not then?
00:27:47
Speaker
If we're being logical, if we're being circle of life, mate, about it, why not? If your old guinea pig is on its last legs, why does it need euthanising?
00:27:59
Speaker
you know if you you've want to... give the these animals in in their zoo enclosure some proper hunting stimulus and make them work for their food. You know, why not? it's some The hypocrisy is is there. It's clear to see It's loud and clear.
00:28:15
Speaker
And obviously, no one on this podcast is ever going to advocate for a zoo or its mission. So I'm quite ambivalent about whether this means that more or fewer people attend their zoo. it's so A zoo is a zoo is a zoo.
00:28:30
Speaker
at the end of the day, regardless of where they are getting their food for their carnivores from. Thank you for sharing those two with us, Shane. Our final email of this episode also comes from Shane. She has been prolific this month and we thank her for it.
00:28:47
Speaker
Another news story. from another corner of the earth. We've been in the Western states of the US, we have been in Denmark, and now we're going to Iran.
00:28:59
Speaker
This was sent to us several months ago, and we were about to feature it on a show, and literally the day we were recording, there was some hideous global political ah context between Israel and Iran that just made us think, do you know what?
00:29:15
Speaker
Us reporting on this particular story it doesn't really seem to, it pales in comparison really with with other things going on. However, from an animal rights point of view, it is interesting be interesting to hear what Paul and the rest of you listening out there have to say about it.
00:29:35
Speaker
So this comes from the New York Times. The headline, dog walking is a clear crime, Iran's latest morality push. Again, the full article is available for listeners to view if you follow the link in the show notes. I'll give a quick summary now.
00:29:53
Speaker
So the government in Iran regards pet dogs as a sign of Western cultural influence. They are also considered impure in Islam. And now there is a crackdown. So Iran banned dog walking in 2019. Yes, you heard me right.
00:30:10
Speaker
Banned dog walking. Few dog owners back in 2019 were all that worried about the order, so says this author. But after years of lax enforcement, officials in recent days have pledged to crack down, according to the state news media.
00:30:27
Speaker
Mohamed Hussain Darudi, the prosecutor in Mashhad, told reporters on Monday, dog walking is a clear crime. Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, Iran's supreme league leader, has issued a fatwa,
00:30:42
Speaker
or religious order. Explaining the logic, a dog's saliva or hair would render anything it touched, like a person, clothing, or a surface, impure.
00:30:54
Speaker
Some Iranian vets and pet surgeons like Dr. Damoon Ansari, are sceptical of the recent moves, however. Each summer, new plans emerge to regulate citizens' morality or lifestyle, Dr. Ansari, who is based in Tehran at the capital, said in a phone interview.
00:31:13
Speaker
This year, the focus is on dogs and dog walking. It's like a fashion, isn't it? This year's trend is a crackdown on dog walking. though probably not in that accent. Mr. Darudi, the prosecutor in Mashhad, said that the enforcement had lapsed over the past two years, but that officials now plan to be far more strict.
00:31:31
Speaker
He said that violators in Mashhad, in Iran's second most populous city, would first receive a warning and that they could be fined or their dogs could be confiscated if they fail to comply. i wonder how they confiscate them without touching them and making themselves impure.
00:31:48
Speaker
Dog walking is considered a threat to health. It's farcical to read it. And is considered a criminal behaviour under the name of harassment of women and children, Mr. DeRudy said. That is the prosecutor.
00:32:02
Speaker
We are experiencing economic difficulties, but the dog lovers are spending billions of dollars each year for dog food, he said. We need that money.
00:32:13
Speaker
For more important things, I mean, I wonder what the dogs think is more important, but yeah, interesting point. Some even view walking a dog in public as a quiet rebellion against the Iranian government, which has long tried to enforce an Islamic lifestyle and, I mean, and I would say a very strict Islamic lifestyle and restrict citizens' civil liberties.
00:32:37
Speaker
Abbas Najavi, the prosecutor, said that dog walking was considered a threat to health, comfort and tranquility of citizens. Just to finish off now, ah Dr. Ansari, who if you remember is a vet, is not worried. However, clinics are still operational, he said,
00:32:55
Speaker
and people are willing to do whatever it takes to protect and pick up after their beloved pets. He says, citizens are accustomed to such plans and know to keep a low profile until enforcement eases.
00:33:09
Speaker
And he said, pet ownership has continued to grow despite the restrictions. This trend is unstoppable, he said. The dog walking trend that is unstoppable in Iran.
00:33:22
Speaker
Obviously, Paul, our culture is not one where these values are felt or even would be entertained to any degree. So we are sort of out of the cultural loop.
00:33:35
Speaker
it makes for interesting reading, interesting listening, and, I mean, quite quite farcical. but But, I mean, from the point of view of of dog owners and dogs and those who are clearly against it, it's a really interesting context, isn't it?
00:33:50
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I did wonder, with that statement, you know, dog's saliva or hair would render anything it touches impure. And you're thinking, that's quite... a doubt I mean, I just wonder if someone...
00:34:02
Speaker
needs to invent the lint roller in Iran or something like that because it would be maybe that's what they're missing here I don't know but um you know well I was at a folk festival for ah ah a few days doing quite a lot of vigorous Morris dancing over the weekend and I was definitely impure by the end of that I mean far worse than any dog you know it's as i was I was caked in sweat yeah probably too much information But the um I wonder whether the real reason is kind of hidden in that um comment about its it started to become perceived as a almost like a small act of rebellion against the state. And you think is this the dog walking is irrelevant. It could be about hanging a flag or slaying.
00:34:49
Speaker
using certain language or watching a certain TV show or something like that or or we're you know wearing a certain colour clothing, umbrellas or something like that. just think it might be more about whatever it is, it doesn't matter. But if there's a if there's just a chink of rebellion amongst the masses,
00:35:07
Speaker
We're going to come down on it hard. And, you know, the reasons are kind of almost like we'll just make them up. It doesn't really matter. they They're totally irrelevant. We're just going to stop this thing that makes us look in any way potentially weaker because, you know, we want complete control.
00:35:22
Speaker
Yes, and and and it seems to be, if you know, my basic understanding of Iranian culture and what this article seems to be saying is that generally dogs are not seen as particularly favourable in a very strict Islamic context.
00:35:40
Speaker
view of the world and therefore spending money on them, spending time and effort on them will be seen as going against that that way of life. I think that it might be disingenuous to say...
00:35:56
Speaker
you know, we've got people living in poverty, there are lots of issues that we need to spend money on. I think that's a bit of a ah cheap shot. I don't believe that really. i That to me is in the same league as Reform UK and Brexit Party saying, oh, look, at all the money we could be spending on the NHS if we weren't in the EU. I just kind of think, well, no, no, no, you you just want people to live your lifestyle and your cross that they're not doing it and and good for people for not bowing to that you know it's it just it feels like a say small act of civil it's yeah it could have a dog civil dis i can't say my joke's lost now i was going say you could have a a dog civil disobedience classes it's a it wasn't even that fun it wasn't even that funny but there you go no but we appreciate the effort paul goodness it's how it's aware it's aware of them Yes, yes, absolutely.
00:36:50
Speaker
I'm interested that they're targeting dog walkers. I'm not saying, I mean, you've you've got a vet going on record here. assume it's his genuine name. They've not said they've used a pseudonym. Surely if you were really cross about this, you'd be you'd be shutting down vets and you'd be cutting them off at the pass and cutting off the supply.
00:37:11
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. I mean, i mean watch the I don't know what the view is on, say, other, well, wow other people. Typical pets that we would know, like, so what's the score with cats? I don't know.
00:37:22
Speaker
Over in Iran, is that a... Are they a thing? I have no idea, but... Yeah, so yeah I think there's the underlying thing here is just not this is is not the story itself. It's just a more of a, you know, we want we want to be able to ensure that there is no sign of rebellion that would encourage more rebellion, like small acts might lead to bigger acts, etc, etc. A bit like the sort of umbrella protests and stuff like that. It's kind of like anything like that, the symbolism of it is is just as important as the actual thing itself.
Listener Feedback and Community Engagement
00:37:53
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:37:53
Speaker
Absolutely. And, um you know, for for what it's worth, that you know, aside from religion This isn't a comment on any particular religion, but I'm really not a fan of any kind of oppressive state or culture, as as I'm sure many of our listeners are not. So aware if the dogs uprising ah helps set up some sort of resistance and rebellion against oppressive attempts by a regime to control its people, then up the dogs, I say, and up the vets who are looking after them.
00:38:27
Speaker
Right, well, obviously Paul and I have given our opinion on on those stories. um Shane clearly knows our email address. Gillamay has found it too and got in touch. We really do enjoy hearing from you.
00:38:40
Speaker
So whether it is to send us an email to feature in one of our mailbag shows, or you just want to give us some feedback on something you've heard, or an idea for the show, or just to say hello, because you are far more than just numbers on our little downloads map.
00:38:54
Speaker
We love hearing from you. So here's how to get in touch with us. To get in touch with us, just send us an email at enoughofthefalafel at gmail.com.
00:39:05
Speaker
We see ourselves as a collective. Our listenership stretches all around the world and everyone's opinions, questions, feedback and ideas are what helps shape the show.
00:39:17
Speaker
Go on, send us a message today. enough of the falafel at gmail dot com Jolly good, jolly good. What that jingle didn't say was you can also help us out if you don't want to send us a message. You can like ah the show, you can review it, you can subscribe. um You can definitely on Spotify as well, each individual episode, you can leave a little comment saying,
00:39:40
Speaker
great show guys, Paul, I love your voice so much, or what a load of rubbish, Dominic, what you said about that was nonsense, and all of those things help new people come across the show, ah we get more and more people listening each week, and um you can you can help spread the love but yeah by liking, commenting, and doing all of that jazz, so thank you in advance for doing that, and thank you Paul for for this episode, great stuff.
00:40:05
Speaker
Yeah. And just to remind people that the next enough of the fellow next stargate cat ass in my face. It's enough of enough of the anus.
00:40:17
Speaker
it's it's and Right. Yeah. And just to remind listeners, the next enough of the falafel episode coming out will be available from Monday with Anthony. Dominic and Julie it will be a vegan week episode a use your weekly roundup of the latest vegan and animal rights news anyway that is enough of the falafel for this episode thanks again Paul for your contributions thanks everyone for listening and everyone who sent in an email for us to discuss too I've been Anthony and you've been listening to vegan talk from the enough of the falafel collective