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215- At risk of vegan burnout? Just cheat!
95 Plays5 days ago
Ok, so we've twisted Justin Brown's words slightly...but you could argue that this is the crux of his article from earlier this year: https://vegoutmag.com/lifestyle/j-i-discovered-why-some-vegans-thrive-while-others-burn-out-and-it-revealed-a-hidden-psychological-pattern-that-nobody-talks-about-but-everyone-needs/
Mark, Kate & Ant discuss the concept of 'perfectionism' in veganism, its impact (if any) on one's longevity as a vegan, and what has the most positive impact on the animals.
As ever, we love hearing your views on the topics under discussion (or anything else!) so do drop us your thoughts via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com
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Enough of the Falafel is a community of people who love keeping on top of the latest news in the world of veganism & animal rights. With the Vegan Talk podcast, we aim to develop listeners' (& our own) thoughts around key issues affecting veganism & the animal rights movement; giving our opinions, whilst staying balanced; remaining true to our vegan ethics, whilst constantly seeking to grow & develop.
Each week we home in on one topic in particular and pick it apart in more detail. If you have a suggestion for a future show, do get in touch via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com.
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Thanks everyone for listening; give us a rating and drop us a message to say "hi"; it'll make our day!
Mark, Kate & Anthony
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Transcript
Introduction to Flexibility in Veganism
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello everybody, welcome to Vegan Talk. Now, did you know that what helps vegans stay vegan longer is actually just don't be vegan some of the time?
00:00:10
Speaker
I'm Anthony and for this episode I'm also joined by Kate and by Mark. I think vegans go looking for trouble even when they're not looking for trouble. That's not what butter's used for.
00:00:22
Speaker
Brrrr! Take your lab-grown meat elsewhere. We're not doing that in the state of Florida. What about your protein and what about your iron levels? Should I call the media and say, hi, sorry? They're arguing like, oh, poor woe is me.
00:00:36
Speaker
Hang on a minute. You always pick the...
00:00:43
Speaker
of social injustice has connection with another. That's just what people think vegans eat anyway. As long as you didn't
Why Do Some Vegans Thrive?
00:00:51
Speaker
get the wee brunions with the horns, you'll be all right. Does veganism give him superpowers?
00:00:59
Speaker
I cannot fly around the city. I don't have laser vision. and Hello everyone, this is Mark here. Welcome to another episode of Vegan Talk. Thank you for being here. Hi everybody, it' Kate with you here. Vegan Talk is where a group of us get together and we chat about a particular subject and we've covered quite a few different things over the last few months and years in fact.
00:01:25
Speaker
And you can go back through the podcast feed and have a look and see what ah some of these subjects are and enjoy. Indeed, they're not going anywhere and they're not going out of date either. So they're there for your delectation.
00:01:39
Speaker
We are covering an article in this week's Vegan Talk. This is from Veg Out magazine. I think we've covered stuff on there before. This is written by Justin Brown. If you listened to an episode a few weeks ago, you might have heard us ah dispute whether the cited author actually existed or whether they were an AI bot. I've done some swatting up and I really do think Justin Brown is a real person. Either that or they've done a very, very thorough humanising of an AI bot.
00:02:11
Speaker
ah So Justin Brown wrote this article on the 26th of June, 2025. It is titled, I discovered why some vegans thrive while others burn out.
00:02:22
Speaker
And it revealed a hidden psychological pattern that nobody talks about, but everyone needs. Nice and clickbaity, big claims, It's an interesting article and like any kind of review or discussion show where we've got a bit of stimulus, whether it's not an article, a film, a book, a podcast, the best way we think to access this conversation is to pause the show, follow the link in the show notes and read it or or digest it, whatever the media is yourself.
00:02:53
Speaker
I would say looking through this, it's about a five to 10 minute read max, obviously depending on your reading speed. It's written in English, if that makes a difference to anybody. I am going to paraphrase it now ah for for a couple of minutes if you're just not going to pause the show and do that, but we'd recommend doing so because me, Mark and Kate have read the full article.
00:03:17
Speaker
For those of you who just wanna hear the paraphrasing, here we go. So the the premise of this is that Justin Brown has been talking to lots of people about how long they've been vegan, perhaps why they've stopped, perhaps what's helped them carry on.
00:03:32
Speaker
And the article starts with him talking to two people in the same coffee shop, one of whom has been going for, I think, over a decade. And the other, they, by their own admission, say, oh, I didn't even last six months.
00:03:47
Speaker
And they're trying to be consoled by the other people saying, well, you're choosing plant-based milk now, you know, but they're saying, yeah, but I'm not really vegan, am I? And over the retort
What Does Being Vegan Mean?
00:03:57
Speaker
is, well, says who? And this comes up quite a lot.
00:04:00
Speaker
Says, who says you're not vegan? Interesting quandary. This, according to Justin, reveals a pattern ah that he sees in lots of areas of life, not just with regards to animal rights or or veganism.
00:04:14
Speaker
He then cites the stories of lots of people who so basically say, I do my best, but then they that sort of reveal times when they didn't follow a vegan choice. And we we're not talking, to be clear, about accidents here, some eating something and then finding out a few days later, oh no, that actually had a ah vegan a non-vegan E number in it.
00:04:37
Speaker
This is almost intentionally having something that contains animal products or playing the percentages thinking, well, this probably contains animal products. I don't know either way, but I'm just going to do it.
00:04:48
Speaker
It should be clear made clear as well. Generally, the people that he's speaking to or referring to in this article are citing that they have been vegan for quite a long time. So we're not just talking about a few weeks. We're talking multiple years and in many cases, more than 10 years.
00:05:07
Speaker
There's a lot of talk about identity as well. So we've got, what's that phrase? Is it fluid integrity? Fluid fluid and integrity.
00:05:17
Speaker
Excellent. That wasn't a test, but well done. You both passed. There's a lot of talk about identity and this phrase fluid integrity comes up. So a lot of what Justin is talking about is saying it's not about being vegan. People are trying to sort of almost performatively be vegan, act like a vegan would act.
00:05:39
Speaker
No, no, no. Don't do that. Be Anthony, be Mark, be Kate, be whoever you are doing your best. You've got integrity. You've got this intention that you want to live your life this way, but be fluid with the context that you're in and basically don't beat yourself up if you're not able to stick to that rigidly, which you know we've heard that sentiment on the podcast before, but also you can do that and still call yourself rigidly.
00:06:08
Speaker
vegan. There's lots of lots of anecdotes and lots of things that kind of fall into this. There is reference to a study, the Epic Oxford study, that found that 73% of those who identified as vegetarian or vegan in the 90s were still following those dietary lifestyles over 20 years later, but also cited is a quote infamous statistic claiming that 84% of vegetarians and vegans abandon their diet.
00:06:36
Speaker
So there's a ah kind of conflict there, of course. Interestingly, and perhaps we'll talk about this in in a bit more detail, there's a a postulation as the article comes to a close, basically saying that people have lost real life community.
00:06:52
Speaker
These days, we don't have the same in real life community groups that we we once would have done extended family, or maybe it would have been the church or or things like that. So what people now cling on to for their sense of identity is is a real strong absolutist um thing, whether it's being vegan or whether it's being, well, I am a follower of this political activist, or I go to the gym religiously. There's a lot of references in the article for people who said they felt like they had to go to the gym every day and if they missed a day it would invalidate their personality. But I think that's the long and short of it. Just very quickly, Kate, Mark, would there be any loud things that you take from the article that you think I've missed there just in terms of giving a summary?
00:07:37
Speaker
No, I think you made a very good summary there, Anthony, and much better than I could. i Honestly, just, I read this. It was like the longest five or ten minutes of my life.
00:07:49
Speaker
oh I'm so sorry, Kate. I make you do such things.
00:07:54
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Self-sacrifice. But honestly, I just thought, ah first of all, I was like feeling uncomfortable. Then I started feeling really cross. And then i like I said, struggled to finish it.
00:08:06
Speaker
And ah just one of the first things that jumped out with me at me was, I hate anyone that tells me what to think. I really, really hate it. I think, no, I i you know i don't want to be told what to think about this.
00:08:20
Speaker
and There was a bit of a tone of that wasn't there and and this was a a common thing with ah the article we covered about a month ago along similar lines it's kind of saying no you're going about things wrong which is ironic because very often as vegans we're told that that's what we do to other people.
00:08:39
Speaker
Well, indeed. Yeah, exactly. But and I suppose he thinks he's vegan. i don't know. But it's just, A, it's about so much more than just food and diet, being vegan.
00:08:53
Speaker
Oh, God, B, what was I going to say? Yeah. Yeah, it's all coming from the me, me, you know, asking this the question, what would serve my growth right now?
00:09:07
Speaker
The answer might surprise you. And that surprise might be exactly what you need. Well, it might be that beef burger. I think I'll have that, but I'm still vegan. Oh, I don't know.
00:09:18
Speaker
There's so many, there were so many things wrong with this. You know, the word fluid integrity you know, it's an oxymoron. You know, you if you have a certain integrity as a vegan, the last thing you want to be is fluid about it.
00:09:33
Speaker
You know, a vegan, you're holding on to these deep set values. And if ah i'm I'm in a situation that, like, say, he he talks about somebody who's a family party,
00:09:48
Speaker
They know the cake has got animal products in it. I know some people do just accept the cake. But honestly, I know people, they go to a family party, they take the cake, and then the rest of the family are like, yeah, you knew you weren't really vegan, blah, blah, blah, and all of that.
00:10:07
Speaker
and And actually... It's an opportunity to advocate, I think. It's a lost opportunity to advocate. There's so many
Personal Vegan Journeys
00:10:17
Speaker
other things here which I could go on about. But yeah, it's kind of psychobabble and stuff, I think. It's just maybe so angry.
00:10:24
Speaker
but I was going to say, we we've we've definitely got your ah overall flavour of the article there, Kate. And there's some things i'd I'd like to revisit and to to ask you about further.
00:10:35
Speaker
um But Mark, why don't you give us your general response to it before we launch into a more complex conversation between us? I think, generally speaking, if if what is stopping someone from taking a step into veganism is because they're obsessed with cheese or they're addicted to cheese, or that if if and when they call around to their grandmother's house and she makes them something with dairy or or maybe even meat in it, that that they can't take that and they feel alienated from their family socializing and so on...
00:11:04
Speaker
I can understand if someone goes into veganism with that sort of ah framework, that ah there there will be times maybe 0.5% of my food might end up being non-vegan. And that's when it's ah a sort of a crucial point in the person's mind when they're at a family gathering, I would say, for instance. That that is a hell of lot better than not being vegan at all. ah Whether the person then has right to call themselves vegan or not,
00:11:31
Speaker
I'm not sure. But if if that's how they want to go into it, that's acceptable, I think. It can be a slippery slope. It's a loophole. It can be exploited by the individual.
00:11:43
Speaker
And essentially, they aren't vegan at all in the end. They're just someone who eats a lot less meat and dairy, but they're still an omnivore, if you like. and when When I went at vegan first, I was staunch vegan for about 20 years or so. And then I did a program, I think it was with you, Anthony, where I talked about falling off the wagon and I was back eating some dairy again for about eight years.
00:12:05
Speaker
Too much shame. And then when I decided to go back to veganism again, I did have this notion of my mind saying, if I find that I have the urge to eat something non-vegan really, really badly, i might do it and consider myself to having failed, but to pick myself back up again, the second after it was out of my mouth.
00:12:25
Speaker
And I did that once about a year into my vegan journey, my second vegan journey, when I was in my mid thirties, I think I was standing at a supermarket checkout and they have all the chocolate on display there for the kids to pester their moms into buying.
00:12:38
Speaker
And I had this urge, this, as if it was an addiction thing to have some dairy chocolate, right? This, I forget what it was. It was, it was so long ago and I did buy it and I ate it as I was standing in line and then handed the the cashier, just this, this empty wrapper that they, they priced up and I paid for.
00:12:56
Speaker
I ate It was completely underwhelming and I felt like a dick afterwards and I haven't done it again, but I had this going into it that I had to get out clothes that if things got too tough, that I would allow myself to do this, even though I knew that it would be wrong and it would be inconsistent and so on. But if it meant maintaining the general line, I was prepared to have that as a mind frame. And as I say, i sort of did it once and completely underwhelmed by the taste and overwhelmed by the feelings of guilt and inconsistency around it. And I haven't done it since. But as I say, if if that was the one thing stopping someone from
00:13:37
Speaker
going on that journey, then I'd say go into it and we with the knowledge that sometimes at a family occasion or something like this, you might get offered a slice of cake that is going to have a ah milk and eggs in it.
00:13:49
Speaker
if the ridicule or the social ostracization is too much for you, have that slice of cake. And as soon as it's gone, then you're back to being vegan again. I know it's inconsistent. It it it doesn't make logical sense.
00:14:03
Speaker
But as the article says, we we are humans. We're apes in shoes. We are liable to failure. Similar to someone giving up smoking, right? I i used to smoke for about 15 years, way, way back.
00:14:17
Speaker
And I tried a number of times to give up and you go out for a few beers on Saturday and night and end up buying 20 cigarettes and chain smoking them. And then the next day you get up and you feel awful because you drank too much and you smoked.
00:14:30
Speaker
And then you're back to being a non-smoker again. I know a lot of people who, as soon as they did that, as soon as they broke once, and were back into into cigarettes, they woke up the next day saying, I'm now a smoker again.
00:14:41
Speaker
And they continued on smoking. And it was like, there was an unwillingness to accept that, okay, so you fucked up, you made a mistake. Now it's time to to rectify that mistake and carry on as a vegan or as a non-smoker whatever the situation is. So I do get the thinking behind it.
00:15:00
Speaker
I also understand that it can be used as an easy get-out clause for someone who doesn't really want to be vegan but wants the sort of the psychological satisfaction of knowing that they're not causing suffering to animals but allow themselves to eat animals when the opportunity comes.
00:15:17
Speaker
so not arises, but and when it's it's too much for them to say no to. This is typically at a social location, like when cakes or a birthday or a wedding or something like this. So my advice to that person would be, if if if that's how you want to start off on this journey, okay.
00:15:33
Speaker
And what you will probably happen is that the the the longer that you refrain from meeting these beings, the more you will see them as individual sentient beings and the less likely you will be in five years' time to want to eat them even when offered a slice of cake at a birthday or wedding or some social occasion and in the in the office.
00:15:52
Speaker
My real feeling around that sort of social thing is that if they were really cared about you and were interested in you as a friend or a family member, they would accommodate your requirements and have a vegan cake.
00:16:05
Speaker
Just the same way as if you were Muslim, they wouldn't be offering you pork or whatever it is. If you were a Jew, they wouldn't be offering. other So religion, the religious impetus is a lot more respected in the general public's mind than an animal rights point of view, a basic sort of compassion point of view, which is really wrong. And it shows how embedded religious thinking works.
00:16:24
Speaker
has God in our society or or the place it has in our society. So if people are willing to make accommodations for a Muslim or a Jew or a Seventh-day Adventist, then they should be willing to extend that to someone who's just coming simply from and non-religious place of compassion around animals.
00:16:40
Speaker
And if that isn't happening on a regular basis, then I would question my place in that social group. But as as as a vegan, I have kids who I try to raise vegan, but when they go out to friends' birthday parties and they ask me, is it okay to eat the birthday cake? I say it's up to them.
00:16:59
Speaker
It's up to them entirely for whatever they want to eat. When they're in my house, I control the food that I buy. It's always going to be vegan. When they're out on their own, they're 8 and 11 now. It's up to them. that it is it is It is a choice that they have to make.
00:17:13
Speaker
I encourage them to make what I consider to be the right choice. But ah I allow for them to make that decision. And my son, who's eight, is really staunch around it. And he never touches dairy.
00:17:25
Speaker
My daughter, on the other hand, will eat cake ah knowing that there is dairy or ah eggs in it. But we'll never touch... touch
Social Acceptance of Veganism
00:17:32
Speaker
meat. I feel that if I was to try and impose this, I'll be on a losing game because I'm not around to control it anyway. I'd be making a scene around it, which would be deeply embarrassing for them.
00:17:42
Speaker
And I would turn them off the notion as they're growing up. And it might be detrimental to them being vegan when they're adults. So i also have a passion that I need to buy cat food for.
00:17:53
Speaker
And i just recently we we just recently acquired the cat. And found myself looking at products that are advertising how much animals are in the product, whereas this was completely alien to me for decades and decades. And now I'm buying products for my cat that are meat-based.
00:18:10
Speaker
I'm looking forward to the day when stuff like solene or lab-based meat is used in the pet food industry, which constitutes a huge amount of animal agriculture, about 20%, of all the animals farmed are slaughtered, tortured slaughtered to provide food for other animals, for pets.
00:18:28
Speaker
So ah is this is where something like clothing could make a huge difference as well. So yes, life is full of inconsistencies. ah Rigidity it really suits some people and it can be very intimidating for other people. So it's it's better to be 99% plant-based or vegan than not at all.
00:18:46
Speaker
And that's my general... approach to this. it's It's a really interesting article. like I really love it because sometimes when I'm reading it, I hate it.
00:18:57
Speaker
And other times I'm like, oh, that's a really good point. Oh man, we really we really need to sit up and listen to this. like this is This is really important stuff. i I take points of of of of both of your arguments there and there there are other bits that in there too.
00:19:13
Speaker
I think my main takeaway from it, and I can see you want to come in Kate, so I'll come straight straight over to you. I'm wondering whether we need an approach to to veganism as we want to expand it from a movement where 2% of the world are vegan to one where 20%, 50% plus a vegan for the sake of the animals.
00:19:34
Speaker
I wonder whether we need to approach things as, I don't know, like people people look at Please, I apologize for that for the really poor metaphor here, but people look at special needs with regards to things like, say, autism is seen as a spectrum. and And similarly, sexuality is, you know, it's not just binary. There are more evolved ways of understanding sexuality now. Understand that there's all all sorts of different ways of expressing one's sexuality. And actually, I'm wondering whether a kind of binary, you're either vegan or you're not,
00:20:09
Speaker
way of looking at things might have got us this far, but for us to then get to a stage where we've got 10 times as many people being vegan or 50 times as many people, maybe we need to look at things in different ways. And I'm i'm not advocating a situation where everyone's 50% vegan, but just in terms of the ways in which people express their veganism or the ways in which they come towards it, you know there's there's obviously a camp where it's like, you're vegan,
00:20:40
Speaker
You stay vegan. There's very good reasons for doing so. And I'm um'm really grateful for books that I read when I first went vegan. There was one called ah Hello, I'm a Vegan Freak.
00:20:52
Speaker
I don't think it's in print anymore, but if you can get a hand on a copy, then do so. But that was very blunt and black and white. And I was really grateful for that because when I started off, I was a bit wishy-washy and it really like set me straight. And I'm really grateful for to that.
00:21:06
Speaker
But maybe that's just my type of personality. And like like you say, Mark, some people just really like a strong sense of identity. It's black and white. I've got it tattooed on my arm and I put a V after my name on Facebook or Strava or whatever, and that's me.
00:21:21
Speaker
But actually, that's maybe that's not everyone, so we've got to approach it in different ways. Kate, you've definitely got more to say on this. Get in there now, quick. So I absolutely hear exactly what you're saying. I agree with you also. I agree that people, that horrible phrase, on a journey and all that,
00:21:40
Speaker
and But I think for his ah his ah argument is that not being flexible in this way and everybody not being flexible is um leading to burnout of ah vegans. Is that right? is that what you took from that?
00:21:59
Speaker
And I just think... Yeah, so um like my understanding as to as to one of the big turn-offs for people not going vegan in the first place or stopping being vegan after a while is the social ostracization, or not even ostracization, but the the standing out socially rather than it being too rigid an approach internally. It's the fact that they stand out. So when they go to a restaurant with all their friends and they're the one asking the... ah The ah waiter, is this has this got eggs or dairy in it?
00:22:26
Speaker
And they're they're not making a scene, but they're making a they're they're sort of standing out in a way that a lot of people feel very uncomfortable with. And when I read this, this was a study done in in Ireland about five years ago where it it highlighted this as being the the pivotal turnoff factor for people. it wasn't the accessibility of vegan food.
00:22:44
Speaker
It wasn't the that the health aspects. It was standing out socially, which I was really surprised by because I've never cared about what other people thought about me. I used to be a punk rocker with a Mohican and anarchy signs on the on the back of my jacket. and the whole I wanted to stand out. I wanted to I wanted it to be disliked by large segments of the population because i hated them.
00:23:04
Speaker
So the idea of standing out was a plus for me, but it's actually, it's a negative. So
Should Veganism Be Flexible?
00:23:09
Speaker
when when I, when I discovered that most people aren't like me, I was shocked to discover that it wasn't the, the lack of of availability, the availability of veggie burgers or their taste or whatever.
00:23:20
Speaker
It was the guy who stands out and says, is this vegan or not? And, ah can i you know it it It was that element rather than being too rigid about it. I would question the the statistic that the the article comes up with about 80 plus ah percent of people stopping being vegan after a few years.
00:23:37
Speaker
That sounds very, very, very high to me. ah Most people that go into veganism have very staunch reasons as to why they want to do this and aren't going to be put off by something that I would regard as trivial as asking a waiter an awkward question in a restaurant sort of stuff.
00:23:52
Speaker
i think I think his point is, though, I discovered what separates those who thrive from those who burn out, and it changes everything. but So I think he's trying to say that those that thrive are flexible, all of them, and those that burn out are the rigid ones, which is not yeah true I am obviously a black and white rigid person on the whole when it comes to veganism,
00:24:19
Speaker
I do my best. I realise I slip up. I'm not perfect, but I do strive to do my best. And if it's I'm in a particularly difficult a social situation, and i'm not going to I'm not somebody that's going to accept the non-vegan cake. I will very politely refuse.
00:24:38
Speaker
I accept that not everybody's like that. That's fine. That's fine for them. But i just what annoyed me was his attitude of this, you know, either you're like this Or you're like that. And I thought, well, no, that's not the case. It just isn't.
00:24:53
Speaker
But also there is, you know, the stories where he talked about, he interviewed people and Tom, a former professional athlete, who'd, during his peak training,
00:25:05
Speaker
you know because he wasn't obviously couldn't possibly get enough protein on a vegan diet had to eat his friend's backyard eggs you know that's fine isn't it no tell him you can get all the protein you need on a vegan diet and marcus that guy who who as a vegan became anemic so he had to start eating fish No, fish are not healthy.
00:25:32
Speaker
Who eats fish for iron anyway? you know And actually, there's no difference between vegans getting anemia and non-vegans getting anemia.
00:25:44
Speaker
Tell them to go to the doctor. Find out what is the condition. And vegans get sick, just like everybody else. But it isn't due to your vegan diet, unless you're just eating chips and ketchup.
00:25:58
Speaker
Yeah. So i don't know, there were kind of factual things that were wrong in it as well, which I just thought anyone reading this that doesn't know is going to go away thinking, oh dear, I better start eating fish then because I'm a bit anemic.
00:26:13
Speaker
What do you mean? I don't know. This I think is the is the trouble with our algorithm-fuelled world in terms of consuming content. in in that if you write a click-baity headline that's got big, bold claims, this this is saying, look, I discovered this thing.
00:26:32
Speaker
Well, you've spoken to a few people. This is not a peer-reviewed meta-analysis of 200 studies. Like you've spoken some people, it's brash in its content.
00:26:44
Speaker
It's probably, well, it's definitely telling people more what they want to hear rather than perhaps what they quote should do. And I completely agree with you, Mark. And I've i've said myself, you know, I've been very human at points along my vegan journey and and not stuck to it perfectly.
00:27:02
Speaker
But that doesn't mean that shouldn't be where we're aiming. We shouldn't be forgetting the animal victims. and And I think in a weird sense, the biggest argument for this approach that he's advocating is that I wonder whether it actually...
00:27:19
Speaker
helps more animals quicker than a completely staunch black and white, you're either vegan or you're not approach. I actually think that's probably not what is going to help the most animals in the long run.
00:27:33
Speaker
I think we probably do need to be a bit more fluid with things. However, however factual inaccuracies and and And just coming up with these sweeping statements of like, oh, well, what does your body need right now? it's it's it needs It needs nutrients and you can get those from plants.
00:27:51
Speaker
So that that's the end of it. You know, if if if if we're going to be as wishy-washy and like you say, pseudoscience, Kate, like... it It really is. It points. And I think that undermines it. And i think that's a shame. And I i hope our conversation now is is bringing out the fact that actually having some nuance in some, I think you said, Mark, like 0.5% of the time is when you're going to be coming up against these things. Because the vast majority of the time, which and unless we're children, we're choosing our own food,
00:28:25
Speaker
we're not in an awkward social situation. Like we can do this, you know, we really can. So it's only in very, very small range of situations that this even needs to be a thing.
00:28:37
Speaker
But I think it is something to consider because because the information about animal rights is out there. Like the the information about plant-based food being much better for you and the planet is out there, but still we're a minority. So I do think
Critiquing 'Fluid Integrity' in Veganism
00:28:53
Speaker
we do need to look at at different approaches and the black and whiteness of veganism is helpful, but I think it probably does hold us back and in some ways. So we need to be open to new approaches, but...
00:29:05
Speaker
With all due respect to VegAlp magazine, I don't think articles like this ah are going to be the only tool in our arsenal. But it will get through to some people, won't it?
00:29:16
Speaker
so Some people will read this, but they won't read a peer-reviewed journal, or they won't watch a documentary, or they won't watch graphic animal footage. And I imagine a lot of people coming across this article are not vegan, but it might show that actually, they could make plant-based choices. You were saying before that you didn't drink alcohol. So if you were to go along to a social occasion and people were to force beer on you, alcoholic beer, it would be completely out of order, right? you you You'd expect them, oh, aunt is coming, he doesn't drink beer.
00:29:45
Speaker
We'll get that 0% Guinness or or something else or kombucha or something. So people that really like you, that really want you in the social circle should be willing to make accommodations for you because they should know you and know what your moral baseline is in this case veganism and shouldn't be forcing something that's that's non-vegan on you and expecting you to eat it if it happens more than once it shows a disrespect i think once is a mistake and i didn't know you were coming or it's it's the only cake here and you know and and so on if it happens again and again it shows that they aren't listening to you and if they're not listening to you and understanding you then
00:30:20
Speaker
I would question whether they're the right people to be socialising with. And they definitely wouldn't be giving me kombucha anyway. ah good Goodness me, anyone that knows me knows my opinions on that particular vile substance.
00:30:31
Speaker
I absolutely hear what you're saying. We need to bring more flexitarians into the food choices that people make. And I ah don't know, I just get the feeling he's advocating more for flexitarianism rather than veganism.
00:30:46
Speaker
Which is fine, which is fine. That that will help the animals. I'm sure he's a lovely person. i'm very, very sorry. he lives in Singapore. i wonder if he's tried So Lean, whatever.
00:30:58
Speaker
I love the way he shoves a Brazilian shaman in there for good measure. you know Oh, yeah God, at that point, i was just like, oh, Justin, seriously, seriously, you've lost me there. to have to work hard to get me back after the the shaman reference.
00:31:14
Speaker
All due respect to shamans, it's fine. But like you know that that the fact is, he's talking about social science here, isn't he? He's talking about psychology. So you you know you've you' you've got to be able to say get people on board. He is, but he's totally made that phrase up, hasn't he? Fluid integrity.
00:31:32
Speaker
He's totally made that up. No, I tried finding out, and nobody knows what that is. It's interesting. If you go right down to the bottom of the article, there is a link to a an Instagram reel.
00:31:43
Speaker
that he's put on his profile that's sort of showing this sort of thing. And I did look through his profile um and I do think he does identify as vegan, is is my guess just from some of the content. He certainly talks about veganism a reasonable amount,
00:31:57
Speaker
but it's definitely not an animal rights or a vegan centric profile, you know? And so I don't think his priority is animal rights here. It's, I want lots of people to think what I'm saying is interesting and and valid. And that's fine. You know, if that's his job, then that's that's fine. We all we have to make animal rights take a bit of a backseat um it It points in life, whether it's our job, whether it's family, whether it's hobbies or whatever.
00:32:25
Speaker
But yeah, it it's certainly got us talking. It's certainly got us thinking. um So thank you, Kate. and thank you, Mark, for for sharing your opinions on that. Of course, dear listeners, we want to hear what you think.
00:32:37
Speaker
And I imagine... There's Kate and Mark and myself have ah put ourselves in various places on the Venn diagram there. I imagine each of you listening will put yourself in a different place too. So we really want to hear what you think about this article or any of the other episodes that we've put out there or anything else vegan or animal rights related.
00:32:56
Speaker
But you're going to need to know our email address. So here it comes. To get in touch with us, just send us an email at enoughofthefalafel at gmail.com.
00:33:07
Speaker
We see ourselves as a collective. Our listenership stretches all around the world and everyone's opinions, questions, feedback and ideas what helps shape the show.
00:33:18
Speaker
Go on, send us a message today. enough of the falafel at gmail dot com i've just been look I've just been looking at this this article again.
00:33:29
Speaker
ah wish I'd said it in the thingy, but I feel like he's really cherry picking. There's someone who's been an ardent animal rights activist for like two decades,
00:33:40
Speaker
and they ate a non-vegan birthday cake once, and that's the thing he's choosing to talk about. It's like, how about all the tens of thousands of meals where they've not, they've not just taken the easy option? know. I always feel like he's justifying his own choices. I agree.
00:33:57
Speaker
See? See? Even she, even she, she wants to be, don't know. It's just, just maybe so cross it's interesting though isn't it i think the the stuff that kind of evokes like strong i keep swaying like a pendulum on this one i think stuff like that's really really interesting even if we disagree with 90 of it all well yeah and some of it just didn't make any sense either it was just like just rubbish i thought what are you talking about makes no sense shut up
00:34:28
Speaker
I would say, i right that ah Kate, you you're right. I think he's trying to justify his own behavior by by making a a theory out of it. And the idea of fluid integrity is is a nonsense, really. um I think it depends on the reasons that that you go into animal rights are into veganism for the first place, if it's a concern and a visceral reaction to the torture and murder of animals.
00:34:48
Speaker
you will probably be vegan all your life. If it's just a health thing and a health fad type thing, or a bit abstract, like I'm saving the planet and there's no real tangible sort of feeling in there, then you will be swayed by this and you will make allowances and start eating. And you're you're sort of coming at it from a different place than if you are from ah principally an animal rights or an animal concern.
00:35:12
Speaker
It exposes the the differences in priorities that people have, I think. But if Justin Brown is 99% vegan and eats birthday cake just once a year, that's his way of navigating and so be it. I'm not going to...
Inviting Listener Engagement
00:35:28
Speaker
be be a too heavy on the guy, but it it can be a slippery slope and use it as an excuse to be an extreme flexitarian rather than a vegan. Yeah. And he's welcome to write on in, isn't he?
00:35:41
Speaker
Send him an email. Yeah. yeah you Shall I send him a recording of the of the show? yeah i Do that. And is react and then and invite them on to maybe discuss the issue because it it it is an issue for a lot of people.
00:35:54
Speaker
there isn't I think the 2% of the world who are vegan are the 2% who are really into veganism. And then there's a huge way that people who are almost vegan or a percentage plant-based, whatever, but can still themselves flexitarian for a whole load of reasons. One of them is that they don't want to be associated with the extremity in their mind of veganism. And they they make a conscious decision to not be entirely vegan because they don't want to be legal v vegan, not because they have a huge desire to eat a piece of meat or dairy.
00:36:22
Speaker
But he could have said all that without all the psychobabble and crap that went with it, couldn't he? And also, like I said, I'm just object to the fact that he's saying there's either these people that stay vegan because they'll, you know, they' they'll kind of take this and they'll do that. And then, hey, they're wearing it all lightly. Yeah.
00:36:43
Speaker
Or there's these people that burn out. You know, it's just rubbish. I think, shut up Which it's an interesting contradiction, isn't it? Because that's quite a binary way of looking at situation.
00:36:56
Speaker
Whereas I feel like his article is almost kind of saying, well, fluid, you know, fluid integrity is not a binary thing, is it? yeah Fluid integrity is rubbish. It's just not a thing. But like he's advocating for fluidity, spectrum, you know, everyone's different. Be yourself.
00:37:16
Speaker
You don't have to be in that box or that box. But then his our whole article is, people are either in this box or this box. its saying Well, yeah, that's very true. Yes.
00:37:26
Speaker
Yes. Oh, well. He's got us talking now. D minus. D minus. Must try me after class. awful Indeed.
00:37:38
Speaker
The next Enough of the Falafel episode will be out on Monday, 27th of October with Ant, Carlos and Dominic. And it will be the Vegan Week episode, which is our usual weekly roundup of the latest vegan and animal rights news.
00:37:53
Speaker
Yay. Anyway, well done. Thank you, Mark and Anthony, for all your contributions. ah That's enough of the falafel for this episode. Thanks again, everyone, for listening.
00:38:05
Speaker
I've been Kate, and you've been listening to Vegan Talk from the Enough of the Falafel Collective.
00:38:17
Speaker
This has been an Enough of the Falafel production. We're just a normal bunch of everyday vegans putting our voices out there. The show is hosted by Zencaster. We use music and special effects by zapsplap.com.
00:38:32
Speaker
And sometimes, if you're lucky, at the end of an episode, you'll hear a poem by Mr Dominic Berry. Thanks all for listening and see you next time.
00:38:58
Speaker
This episode may have come to an end, but did you know we've got a whole archive containing all our shows dating back to September 2023? That is right, Dominic. There's over 100 episodes on there featuring our brilliant range of different guests, people's stories of going vegan, philosophical debates, moral quandaries, and of course...
00:39:19
Speaker
around a dozen news items from around the world each week so check back on your podcast player to hear previous episodes and remember to get an alert for each new episode simply click like or follow and also subscribe to the show thanks for your ongoing support wherever you listen to us from