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Ep. 10: Natasha Hirst on Surviving Domestic Abuse as a Teenager
135 Plays5 years ago
Trigger warning: In this episode Natasha tells me about some of the domestic violence she experienced as a child and teenager.
In the final episode of this series, I have the privilege of talking to Natasha, who was physically and psychologically abused by her mother’s boyfriend from quite a young age, until she left home to go to university. Now a photographer and writer, Natasha has taken her experiences of domestic abuse into journalism, activism, and charity campaigning to improve the lives of others who’ve experienced similar.
Natasha is also deaf, so we also talk a bit about how that contributed to a low self-esteem that led her to tolerate the violence at home.
What is domestic abuse?
One of the things we discuss is what actually constitutes domestic abuse. I was shocked when Natasha told me that she tolerated her treatment because she didn’t realise that it wasn’t normal, or because she was told it was her fault. I think Natasha’s explanation is a really good place to start if you’re wondering if something’s not right about your own situation.
Disability and consent
We also discuss consent in relation to how we approach a disabled person – it’s a fascinating insight from someone who’s often on the receiving end of well-intentioned, but unwelcome attention from strangers.
Where to get help if you're at risk of violence at home
- Government advice - a starting point if you're in a violent situation, or you're worried about a child
- Childline - confidential advice and information if you're a child suffering from domestic abuse, or seeing it happen in your home
- Women's Aid explains what constitutes domestic abuse, and what you can do about it
- Refuge
Domestic Abuse and Covid-19
Some emergency measures available to victims of domestic violence during Coronavirus lockdown:
- Rail companies offering free travel to those fleeing domestic abuse
- Boots Pharmacies are offering their consultation rooms as a safe space to victims of domestic violence
If you'd like to connect with Natasha you can find her here:
- Seeds Wales - Natasha's charity website.
Thank you so much for listening! Subscribe now to the Teenage Kicks podcast to hear about the new series when it begins. I'll be talking to some fabulous guests about difficult things that happened to them as teenagers - including losing a parent, being hospitalised with mental health problems, and battling an eating disorder - and how they overcame things to move on with their lives.
I'd love it if you'd rate and review the podcast on iTunes too - it would really help other people to find it. Yo
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Transcript
Introduction to Teenage Kicks Podcast
00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome to the Teenage Kicks podcast where we take the fear out of parenting or becoming a teenager. I'm Helen Wills and every week I talk to someone who had a difficult experience in their teens but came out the other side in a good place and went on to make a real success of their life.
Impact of Domestic Abuse on Teenagers
00:00:26
Speaker
Today I'm asking a difficult question. Have you experienced domestic abuse? Or are you coping right now with a home situation that's violent or controlling? It doesn't matter whether it's a partner or another family member, feeling like you have no say in your own home isn't right. And when it's happening to a young person, it's potentially even more damaging.
Natasha's Journey from Abuse to Success
00:00:56
Speaker
In my final episode of this series, I have the privilege of talking to Natasha, who was physically and psychologically abused by her mother's boyfriend from quite a young age, until she left home to go to university. Now a photographer and a writer, Natasha has taken her experiences of domestic abuse into journalism, activism and charity campaigning to improve the lives of others who've experienced similar.
00:01:24
Speaker
Natasha is also deaf, so we talk a bit about how that left her feeling somehow less than other people, and how that contributed to the abuse that she tolerated. And I had no role models, I had nobody to look to. You know, when you have these aspirations for what you want to do when you grow up, I was always being told all deaf children can't do that. One of the things we discuss is what actually constitutes domestic abuse.
00:01:54
Speaker
I know that sounds like a really silly thing to say but I think it's important because I was shocked when Natasha told me that she tolerated her treatment because she didn't realise that it wasn't normal because she was told that it was her fault. I think Natasha's explanation is a really good place to start if you're wondering if something's not quite right about your own situation.
Recognizing Subtle Signs of Domestic Abuse
00:02:21
Speaker
If you're having to tiptoe around people, if you're having to drastically alter your behaviour to accommodate somebody else's moods, if you're finding yourself having to second guess, you know, you're scanning someone up and down when they walk into a room and you've got to work out, are they about to kick off about something or are they alright?
00:02:39
Speaker
If you think a child or a teenager is experiencing domestic abuse, even if it's just seeing it happen within their family as opposed to it happening to them, it's important to do something about it. As Natasha points out, her own experiences didn't just harm her childhood, it had a lasting effect on her adult life as well.
Impact of Childhood Abuse on Adult Life
00:03:02
Speaker
I didn't recognise those achievements, I constantly thought I still need to do more, I'm still not giving up. So then when somebody comes into your life and takes control, it was like a familiar behaviour, I was familiar with that way of living in existence.
00:03:20
Speaker
We discuss so many issues in this episode, including a biggie, consent.
Consent Issues in Vulnerable Interactions
00:03:26
Speaker
Especially how it relates to our behaviour towards a child, and also in how we approach a disabled person. It's a fascinating insight from someone who's often on the receiving end of well-intentioned but unwelcome attention from strangers.
00:03:44
Speaker
Before we get started, I'd like to ask a favour. If you like the podcast, please do head over to iTunes and rate it. I'd love it if you subscribe and maybe leave a review as well. It just helps to boost it in the charts so that other people can find it.
Podcast Sponsorship and Recommendations
00:04:03
Speaker
This series is sponsored by Blue Microphones. If you're thinking of making a podcast or any kind of audio recording, their YetiCaster mic is fantastic.
00:04:14
Speaker
especially for beginners like me. Have a look on blue-designs.co.uk Now let's hear from Natasha. Today I'm here with Natasha who's a photographer and a writer. Natasha is deaf so it's not surprising that she's often involved in disability campaigning as well as activism surrounding equality issues.
00:04:39
Speaker
She works a lot with the National Union of Journalists and actually was just with Samira Ahmed yesterday who just won her case against the BBC on equal pay. So that must have been fun. That must have been fascinating. And you introduced her, is that right, for your speech? I introduced her to the TUC Women's Conference.
00:05:01
Speaker
And she is fantastic, really great person. What she's achieved has been amazing and she's done that with the support of the union as well. But there was so much solidarity across the union movement and from women all over the UK supporting her case.
00:05:16
Speaker
TUC Women's Conference is all about bringing women to a union activist together from across the UK to talk about the issues that are important to women at the moment so there was a whole range of issues we were talking about including menopause and ametriosis, homelessness, equal pay, sexual harassment, just
00:05:40
Speaker
Yeah, brilliant. So fascinating things you get involved with them. It is, it is. And you meet some amazing people who are very passionate about social injustice and equalities and campaigning. So I always come away feeling quite inspired from that. Yeah, I bet.
00:05:55
Speaker
So before we get started on this conversation I just need to give a friendly trigger warning to anyone that's listening that might have suffered any kind of domestic abuse because Natasha is going to talk to me about being physically and psychologically abused by her mother's boyfriend as a teenager
00:06:21
Speaker
Natasha, maybe just if you can get us started by talking me through a little bit about your young life growing up because I know you also were abandoned by your mother.
Challenges of a Deaf Childhood
00:06:35
Speaker
Yes, it was a bit of a chaotic childhood in many respects. My parents separated when I was about seven. My mother actually left me and my dad for someone else. I went to live somewhere else. And there was a very sort of long period of upheaval where I was living with my dad and then suddenly my mother turned up, took me off to a new life with her and her new boyfriend somewhere else. And then
00:07:05
Speaker
you know, my behaviour I think got quite difficult, quite difficult to manage both at school and at home and the next thing I know I was being dumped on my gran and left with her for a period of time. So you just never really knew where you stood? No, not really and also there was never any directness about
00:07:26
Speaker
why, why these things were happening around me, you know. So my mother disappeared, came back, disappeared again. Then I was with my dad, with her, with my gran, then back with my mother again. That must have been really confusing. It was, it was, and I can remember sort of
00:07:45
Speaker
this feeling at that time. So, yeah, I was about seven, eight years old. And I can remember being at school and thinking, well, I've got to be the girl that fights with the boys so that I don't get picked on because I was always the new kid. I was always turning up out of nowhere in the middle of a school term and having to kind of establish myself. Yeah. You know, exhausting.
00:08:09
Speaker
It was and it was tough because I'm deaf as well. And have you always been deaf? I was born deaf. And I've been hearing aids since I was three years old.
00:08:20
Speaker
But then at school I had to wear a radio aid to access the classroom environment. So I was often very misunderstood. Teachers weren't aware of what I was following, what I wasn't following. There was an assumption that I had hearing aids, I had a radio aid, therefore everything was okay. And they didn't realise that
00:08:44
Speaker
you know, the level of concentration it takes to follow and to lipread and to understand. So it was quite hard in the classroom? Yeah, it was very tough because at most of my schools, I went to five primary schools altogether. Most of them, I was the only deaf child there. Teachers didn't have experience or understanding of deafness. There was an assumption that because I had my hearing aids on, I was wearing my radio aid.
00:09:10
Speaker
that I could follow everything but actually I couldn't because I've always needed to lip read, I've always needed to see faces to understand. Teachers move around the classroom, they turn their backs and you only have to miss one word in a sentence
00:09:27
Speaker
and you've lost the meaning of the entire thing. So I would really struggle to keep up, but then I would struggle socially as well because I couldn't hear, you know, my peers around the table, I couldn't hear out on the playground, I couldn't hear when we were doing PE. All these things where you need to develop your relationships with other kids around you. I didn't have support for that, I just really struggled with it.
00:09:56
Speaker
And that's not something that your average kid would think about or even be aware of. They're all focused on just doing all of that for themselves. Of course, but even going through it myself, I didn't understand what I was struggling with so I thought I've not understood anything so I'm stupid.
00:10:18
Speaker
I didn't realise I've not understood anything because I haven't heard half of it. You don't always know what you're missing and you can't hear it. And because I didn't know any other deaf children, I was always different. I was always the one that was a bit weird and that other kids didn't really understand, didn't know how to deal with.
00:10:38
Speaker
And I had no role models, I had nobody to look to. So, you know, when you have these aspirations for what you want to do when you grow up, I was always being told, oh, deaf children can't do that. And you look around if there's no one to prove that wrong. So that really limited my aspirations for myself as a child. It limited, you know, what I thought I could do when I went out into the big wide world.
00:11:03
Speaker
And you internalise a lot of that negativity and stigma. So when people constantly say, oh, oh, when we found out you were deaf or we were so disappointed, you know, I cried all day or you internalise that deafness is a bad thing. Yeah. And you're not hearing positive messages about deafness or about yourself. So I think that, you know, I grew up with
00:11:28
Speaker
just this sense that I wasn't good enough, I was never going to fit in, I couldn't do the things I wanted to do in life and that really damages your confidence and your self-esteem. Yeah, it must do. So you were taking that feeling about yourself back home every night and how did you come then to be living presumably, did you end up living permanently with your mum and her boyfriend?
00:11:57
Speaker
Yes, although the boyfriend that she left us for, everything went wrong. My dad helped us find a new house so my mum and I, we had our own house and my dad was just at the road at that time. Things settled but I think my mother had always struggled with her own mental health which then impacted on her parenting. So quite quickly she got into another relationship
00:12:25
Speaker
and he moved in with us when I was about nine. Okay. And initially it
Beginning of Abuse at Home
00:12:30
Speaker
was fine, it was fine because I was a cute enough little nine-year-old. But then I think, I remember the abusive behaviour starting when I was about maybe 12, 12 years old. Right.
00:12:45
Speaker
And it sort of stemmed from difficulties that we had with neighbours, actually. So there was stress in the household because of difficulties with the neighbours and there was stress at work. And at school still, presumably, in secondary school? Well, this was my last primary school, my fifth primary school. And this was the first time I met other deaf children because that school had a unit for deaf children. Oh!
00:13:12
Speaker
And it was a game changer for me. Yeah, I bet. Because it was the first school where I was understood, I was just accepted, I was able to participate socially as well as academically. And it was a brilliant school, I loved it, it was the best school. Amazing. Yeah, it was just really, really good.
00:13:32
Speaker
So I was still mainstreamed, but I had the support I needed in that environment. Which is what everybody wants, if it's possible, is just to access a school where everybody else is, but have the additional support. And to just have that level of inclusion that every child should have. So that was a great school. So things were stressful. What was the first thing that happened in terms of
00:14:02
Speaker
The abuse beginning. So I don't know if I can remember the first thing because it's one of those things where I think behaviour towards me started changing gradually. Right. And it was smaller, low level things. So I don't really know what quite started it other than me just getting a bit older.
00:14:27
Speaker
I don't think I was a difficult kid. You know, you do kind of look back and reflect on yourself and say, well, did I do something that was wrong? And actually, you know, I don't think I did. But it would be things like...
00:14:41
Speaker
having to tiptoe on eggshells around him and being just constantly told what I could and couldn't do. But in a quite unreasonable way. So things like from 12, 13 onwards, it would be my job to clean the whole house on the weekend. It would be my job to do all the washing in the island. Okay.
00:15:07
Speaker
And so you're told to do this by your mum or her boyfriend? By my mum but so for example I've got to clean a house but I have to wait until he's finished his Saturday mid-morning nap before I can do it so that I don't disturb him and it would be little things like
00:15:27
Speaker
You know, if I'm walking up the stairs and he wants to come down the stairs, it doesn't matter if I'm one step from the top, I have to walk all the way back down to the bottom for him to walk down and pass before I can go back up the stairs. Those kind of controlling behaviours that show, you know, I'm in charge here. And I remember just not having any privacy at home. So he would just walk into my bedroom whenever he felt like it.
00:15:57
Speaker
And if I complained, he'd say, well, this is my house, it's not your house, I let you live here. And this is my room in my house. I can walk in there if I want to. So this is the beginning of the psychological abuse then. And that's quite, I mean, that is controlling and abusive. It is. I mean, I'm not allowed to rightly walk into my kids' bedrooms, they're 12 and 15, without asking.
00:16:26
Speaker
appropriately so you know so I didn't feel safe at home because I had no privacy my room wasn't my safe haven and you need space don't you everybody needs time alone and space to be exactly who they are at times I think it's hard living in a family anyway to get privacy and space but
00:16:51
Speaker
For a kid growing up and a teenager especially, their bedroom is that space.
Controlling Behavior and Denial of Abuse
00:16:57
Speaker
Yeah. I remember one time when he walked in and he wanted to know what was in my cupboard. I was like, you're not going in my cupboard. And because I'd said that, he was determined he was going to go in the cupboard. And I actually, and I remember this as being the first time that I really stood up to him. I just stood there and screamed in his face to get out of my room, to leave me alone.
00:17:19
Speaker
and that he could not go in my cupboard. And what was in my cupboard that I was so terrified of him seeing was my sanitary products. That's what I didn't want him to see because that was so deeply intimate and personal to me and it would have been mortifying for him to open the door and see that.
00:17:41
Speaker
And I've no doubt that when I wasn't there, he went in and had to look anyway. You know, there was no way for me to protect my space or protect my privacy. But then those kind of behaviours would escalate into... I'm putting this in air quotes, playing. Physical attacks, but playing. So he would push me and shove me and trip me up and knock me down and...
00:18:08
Speaker
and would escalate to the point where he was punching me but he was only playing so that for me in my head I'm like well I'm not comfortable with this I don't like this but this is just playing
00:18:23
Speaker
And you knew it was just playing in her quotes because he said so? Because my mother said so. So I would go to her and I would say, you know, can you please ask him to stop this? I don't like it. Please ask him to stop. And I would show her the bruises. You know, I would have bruises on my arms because he would hit me with his knuckles.
00:18:45
Speaker
And was he angry when he did this? Or was he in his mind? Clearly in his mind he wasn't playing, but was he pretending it was play? He was pretending it was play. So it wasn't like something had happened, he was angry and I got hit. He would just walk into my room and start on me.
00:19:02
Speaker
And I had, I remember when I was about 14, I had glandular fever, it was really quite unwell. And I'd come home from school and I'd be exhausted. And as a deaf kid you'd come home from school, you're exhausted anyway because of concentration fatigue. And I would just have to go to my room and get an hour's sleep before I could sort of function and do homework. And at one time I woke up because I was holding a pillow down over my face.
00:19:29
Speaker
and that then escalated into him stuffing socks in my mouth and pinching my nose so I couldn't breathe or actually holding me by my neck against the wall choking me. And at this point that's not playing, is it? Obviously not, but I was still being told that it was.
00:19:52
Speaker
Right. And I was very socially isolated at high school. So I was at my high school. I was the only deaf kid. We lived in a rural village where you had, you know, a couple of buses a day going through. You know, I had no way of getting out. I didn't have friends who I was close to. I didn't have that sense of looking at other people's families and recognizing how they function very differently to mine. I don't see my friend's dad.
00:20:20
Speaker
choking her. Why is that happening to me? So I didn't have that comparison. Right, yeah. It's not like you could talk to a friend and say this is happening at home and then I don't know what to do about it and then be shocked and say that's not normal. But also yeah, I just didn't know that it was abuse. I did not know that this was abuse of behaviour. I didn't know it shouldn't be happening.
00:20:43
Speaker
And also, you know, I'd go to my mum. And it did depend what mood she was in, so she'd either say, oh, he's only playing, or she'd turn around and say, well, you deserved it. And so I began to think, well, if he's behaving like this towards me, it's because I'm a bad person, it's because I've done something wrong, it's because, you know, this is what I deserve.
00:21:08
Speaker
Was he being abusive to anyone else? Was he doing anything to your mum? I don't think so. Because with previous partners, where they started to become abusive, she has left very quickly. But it seemed to be a different thing that the abuse was happening to me. So I'm sure that he was controlling, as in, created an atmosphere where
00:21:36
Speaker
you know, she was also walking on eggshells, but he definitely wasn't, he definitely wasn't physical towards her. And I think, you know, in her head, she was able to minimise what he was doing to me that made it okay to just kind of carry on. Did she not see any of it? Yeah, she did. There was one time when he came into my room and he was, he'd been choking me.
00:22:01
Speaker
I managed to get away from him and was trying to sort of run down the stairs. He grabbed hold of me and he actually pulled my arm up behind my back and was trying to push me down the stairs. And I was screaming for help. I was just screaming for her to help me. And she came to the bottom of the stairs and shouted up at me, I'm fed up with you. I'm just fed up with all of this shouting. Why can't you two just get along?
00:22:29
Speaker
yeah and wasn't she wasn't seeing what was actually in front of her she didn't want to see it do you think she really wanted to be with him and felt that she needed to be with him and was therefore minimizing everything and trying not trying not to see what he was like with you just trying to see it as almost
00:22:54
Speaker
Like I get sibling bickering with my kids and I yell at them and tell them to stop just riling each other and causing each other aggro. Not that they're physical and I would never tolerate it if they were and they know that but they do henpeck each other a lot when they're in that mood because siblings do. Do you think she was seeing it as just that kind of behaviour that you and he
00:23:24
Speaker
just didn't gel, rubbed each other up the wrong way. Yeah, I think she probably did and I think also she had issues with her own mental health and self-esteem. Yeah. That meant that she probably couldn't visualise.
00:23:39
Speaker
or didn't want to. Didn't want to have to deal with this question of, oh, should I stay? Should I go? You know, they shared a mortgage on a house together. There would have been all of that upheaval in her life had she taken steps to protect me. And that's part of the whole, you know, I've been really lucky never to have experienced domestic abuse in any way.
00:24:10
Speaker
But we were just talking before the podcast about the new charity that you've just set up to educate service providers about domestic abuse. Because you were saying people who are involved in domestic abuse don't even perceive it. They don't even know that it's domestic abuse a lot of the time.
00:24:35
Speaker
They're not able to label it as such. And even, and because it's insidious and it begins slowly like it did with you, they're in it deeply before they've realised that it is a thing. And then it's really complicated trying to walk away. Is that right? Am I understanding it correctly? Yeah, absolutely. And also I've experienced domestic violence as an adult.
00:25:04
Speaker
And it is exactly that situation, is that you are suddenly in too deep before you realise, oh my god, this is just not okay, this is not good, but then you don't know how to get out.
00:25:16
Speaker
And also the way that perpetrators work is that they constantly blame the victim. They will accuse the victim of doing the things that they are actually doing. And there's always excuses. There's always, I lost control because I was so upset because I love you so much. And they feed you with all of these excuses that, for your own survival in a way,
00:25:44
Speaker
you perpetuate those excuses. You want to believe them. Yeah, and that's what coercive control is about as well. Right. And gaslighting, and you're constantly having your brain hacked into you by this perpetrator's behaviour, by the words they use, by the way they frame what's going on around you.
00:26:09
Speaker
And they use tactics that just stop you from being able to think things through for yourself. You cannot think to the end of a sentence in order to properly analyze and challenge what the perpetrator's doing. And you know that if you do challenge it, you're going to suffer the repercussions of that. And so, you know, for your day-to-day survival, you learn how to manage that situation to try to keep peace.
00:26:35
Speaker
So as an adult in an abusive relationship, it took me a very very very long time to recognise that it was abuse and it wasn't okay that it was happening. And the only reason I left is because I knew I would end up dead.
00:26:52
Speaker
So even though you've experienced it before as a teenager, you still didn't recognise it when it began happening as an adult. Because it was never resolved for me as a teenager. Yeah.
Unresolved Trauma into Adulthood
00:27:05
Speaker
Because what I went through as a teenager, I never fully kind of understood what had been done to me and that it wasn't my fault. Yeah. You know, my low self-esteem and low confidence continued, you know, right into my 20s.
00:27:21
Speaker
even though I went on to uni, even though I did all sorts of amazing stuff, you know, I've achieved so much. I didn't recognise those achievements. I constantly thought I still need to do more. I'm still not good enough. Right. Yeah. And so then when somebody comes into your life and takes control, it was like a familiar behaviour. I was familiar with that way of living and existing. And it's only kind of coming out the other end of all of that.
00:27:50
Speaker
my life haven't gone to absolute rock bottom, that I've been able to sort of look back and with support from women's aid, with support from other survivors, to then be able to, in a critical way, analyse perpetrated behaviour and recognise, well, that happened to me, that happened to me, that happened to me. And it happens to so many other women as well. You're not alone.
00:28:15
Speaker
And so understanding how perpetrators work and the tactics they use has helped me to now finally move on from that. So whereas there were red flags and relationships that I missed early on. The love bombing, always wanting your attention, always wanting your time.
00:28:34
Speaker
always wanting immediate responses to messages. Yeah, which you consider a positive when you're in that first flush of a relationship. Exactly. It's like, oh, he loves me so much. This is amazing. Actually, it's incredibly unhealthy. But we're conditioned to think that that's what a relationship should be like. Look at films, look at TV programmes.
00:28:57
Speaker
besotted in love. Yeah, and actually that's not love at all. That's control. Well, and it's just interesting what you said about control and not asking if you could come into your room and not asking before we touched you.
00:29:17
Speaker
It came up in another podcast recording just recently that consent is an issue not just around sex, it's an issue around anybody in your personal space. And that we shouldn't even, we should even be very careful with our little kids when we're tickling them and they say no. If they say no, we should stop until they ask us to do it again.
00:29:43
Speaker
because otherwise you're teaching them that actually they don't have any say in when and how someone touches them or what someone does to them and kids need to know that actually no one can do anything physical to them
00:30:02
Speaker
without their say-so. That's another issue for disabled people actually. That issue of consent is that people often assume disabled people need help, that they can't do things for themselves. So for example people stepping in and pushing somebody's wheelchair without asking as to what you actually need. And you think you're being, I mean I've done it, I have got involved with people and it's not the right thing to do. It's interesting, I saw an old lady fall
00:30:30
Speaker
It was a few years ago now, in the street, she fell. And immediately I rushed over to the other, I was on the other side of the road. I rushed over, so did another woman. And I went to put my arm underneath her arm to lift her, to sit her onto a small wall that was nearby to get her off the floor. And they didn't ask her. And they didn't think to ask her. I just thought, this poor woman's on the floor, we need to help her. But the other lady,
00:30:59
Speaker
stopped and said, right, now what's your name? And let's say it was Phyllis, I don't know. I can't remember. Phyllis, is it okay if we lift you now? And I thought, God, yeah. That's what we should do.
00:31:16
Speaker
Yeah, because it is just that basic issue of consent and that making sure that whatever situation a person's in, that they feel that they have autonomy, they have control, they have say over what is happening to them. And yes, they might need help, but it's up to them to say what help they need. And not for somebody else to assume that they know best for.
00:31:41
Speaker
Yeah. A complete stranger in a situation that they might not really have an insight into. Yeah, absolutely. That's such a good point. Yeah. But, you know, you can understand people's reaction being, oh my goodness, I want to help. Yeah, of course. Yeah. But it is, you know, it is important to consider your actions around other people. Yeah. And not disempower them by just taking over. Yeah. Yeah. That's, I feel like we should have a, we should have a podcast about disability rights as well.
00:32:10
Speaker
So while all this was happening at home, you were obviously having a tough time at school anyway because of your deafness.
00:32:21
Speaker
Did the abuse have an impact on how you were at school, do you think? Yeah. Yeah. I was very, very withdrawn at school. Right. So school was hard for me socially anyway. Yeah. But with all this going, you know, I was always very conscious. You know, sometimes I'd be invited around to a friend's house and often I would say no because I knew I would not be able to reciprocate. I wouldn't be able to invite them back.
00:32:49
Speaker
Was that because of him? Yeah, because I didn't want to bring somebody into that environment where I was going to have to tell him, you know, we've got to be really quiet at Shush, tiptoe around the house or be trying to keep them away from him because I could never... He was unpredictable. I could never be quite sure how he might be around somebody else and I didn't want somebody to be subject to that rudeness. Yeah, it's embarrassing.
00:33:15
Speaker
And it meant that also, because Where We Were was quite rural, I would generally need a lift. You know, friends at my school, we had a massive catchment area, so they'd be in other villages. I'd need to have a lift. And he would never be willing to drop me off at some of his house and pick me up afterwards.
00:33:37
Speaker
And the same with after school activities. If there wasn't a free late bus, I couldn't stay after school. So if I wanted to be involved with a school play, I couldn't do it because there would be nobody to pick me up from rehearsals. So from a practical point of view, it impacted. Were you stressed or anxious? Did it affect your mental health in a big way at school? Not hugely.
00:34:08
Speaker
And because I was very withdrawn socially, so there were very few kids I'd engage with. And the only kids that were really friends with me were generally the weird kids, who everybody else picked on anyway. So I'd end up as part of this group of kids that was always picked on. But weird kids. That is how we used to describe them, isn't it? In hindsight, I would say
00:34:36
Speaker
We were different, we were quirky, and it's those strengths that have actually seen us on through life. Well, yeah, and we definitely need to talk about that because this is a common thread in all of these recordings, but yeah, definitely. So, you know, my differences have ultimately been my strengths. And I'm grateful. And they always are. It's always the case. Yeah. But so did you get good exam results? Did you get what you needed to? I did because
00:35:07
Speaker
I mean, I hated school, it was a terrible environment for me, but I hated being at home. And I recognised that my education was my key out of there. And so for me, just...
00:35:21
Speaker
I did everything that I could do to put my guts out to get good grades. And I did. I got, I don't know, seven As, a B and a C in my GCSEs. I got two As and a B at A level. And I got to uni. I got out. I got away. It's really interesting.
00:35:41
Speaker
Quite a few people have described going to university in that way as being an escape from what they lived with before. It was my chance to start my life on my terms. Although I moved to Cardiff when I was 18.
00:36:03
Speaker
I often say I grew up in Cardiff because that is where I found myself as a person, that's where I became me, away from the control of my mother and her boyfriend. Amazing strength actually to do that and become the person you want to be away from home without the support that most kids do get from their home because
00:36:33
Speaker
you know mental health at university is another thing that I'm really interested in exploring because I feel like university is often bigged up as the most amazing time of your life and you're going to have a fantastic time and you're so lucky and this is where it all begins which you know clearly it was for you but for so many people the shock of leaving home and being
00:37:00
Speaker
out of your normal environment away from your friends, maybe a boyfriend and everything that you know and having to fend for yourself as well as start a whole new support network and social system for yourself is really tough and I've had contact with a lot of first year students who have responded to me on Instagram when I've talked about it.
00:37:23
Speaker
University is the first time for me that I found other people like me. I had one Baker friend at high school who I'm still friends with now and we're both quirky different people and that
00:37:37
Speaker
Yeah, that bonds. Yeah, we're solid. We'll be solid for our entire lives. But apart from that, university was the first place where I found there are more people who are different. There are more, you know, not the trendies, not the cool kids, but more people who they've had their own struggles and that has shaped them. And they've come to university with a different
00:38:01
Speaker
perspective. So I wasn't at university to party.
University as an Escape and Empowerment
00:38:05
Speaker
I was there because I really wanted to get a good degree and be able to start building that life for myself. And also I didn't have money. I've never been a partier. So for me university wasn't about the party side of things.
00:38:24
Speaker
but socially I did start to find people who I really kind of connected with and who I've built really solid friendships with who are still in my life now. That's brilliant. And so that for me I think really helped. I did go into my course thinking
00:38:42
Speaker
I'm not going to get through the first year because academically I could be good enough to do chemistry. I did not believe I could be good enough to get through. That's so sad. I mean my dad was always very supportive. Where was your dad in all of this? Well he didn't know what was going on because I didn't tell anyone.
00:39:01
Speaker
I think he just assumed that my mother was looking after me. He paid more than his share of child maintenance that he needed to. He'd see me when he could, he'd take me on holiday, he'd have me on occasional weekends. And why didn't you tell him?
00:39:17
Speaker
because I thought it was my fault. I didn't want him to know that I was this horrible, hideous person. OK. So this is going back to what you were saying before about not having resolved it and understood that none of it was your fault before you left the situation. Yeah. And then as I got older, I didn't want to tell my dad because I didn't want him to carry the pain of
00:39:44
Speaker
knowing that these awful things had happened to me and it was too late for him to do anything about it.
00:39:49
Speaker
Why do we as kids feel so much responsibility for our parents' feelings? I don't know. This is coming out time and time again in these conversations. Certainly I always felt very responsible for my mother. I often felt like I was the adult and she was the child in that relationship. Because her self-esteem was so poor and that came out in the way that she talked to me. So she would tell me her secrets and confidence. When I was a little girl and tell me to
00:40:18
Speaker
you know, lock these secrets up in my heart and throw away the key. Which, you know, when you look back, it's a really appalling thing. Yeah, it is, yeah. But it must have made you feel quite special at the time. Or did it make you feel worried? It made me worried, you know, and I can remember especially when things had kicked off with the neighbours that we weren't getting on with. And I found my mother used to write poetry. It was always very melancholy. Right. Yeah.
00:40:47
Speaker
And I found a poem that she'd written. She left it out on the kitchen table. And she wasn't there. She was usually, you know, she wasn't there when I got back from school that day, when I was about nine, ten. And I remember thinking, oh no, she's gone off to kill herself.
00:41:04
Speaker
And I went and we had train tracks nearby and I just went running out, running out, looking for my mum, looking over the bridge and looking around the train tracks because I was convinced that she must have gone out and tried to kill herself. And then as I was out, she was coming back from the shop, you know. I shouldn't laugh, oh my God. But I think
00:41:27
Speaker
you know, she overburdened me with her emotions when actually she needed to talk to somebody who was qualified to take that. Yes, rather than putting it on her child. So, going back to what you were saying about
00:41:49
Speaker
kids not even knowing that what they're experiencing or what they're seeing maybe is domestic abuse if it's not them that it's happening to if it's happening to a sibling or their mother or their father. What would you say to a teenager or a child even who
00:42:12
Speaker
is just wondering if this is not quite right, if something isn't really right at home in their family. What would you say they need to do? Well suppose, I mean there's a child line.
00:42:26
Speaker
You know, you can call Childline and have a conversation with someone. You can describe, you know, what's going on and you can get, you know, the point of view of somebody who is completely unconnected to your situation. Right. Yeah. But it's hard to tell somebody that you know because then they're involved. Well, this is just it. Once I did try to tell a friend's mum. So it was the one particular evening. So my mother would sometimes be quite controlling with food.
00:42:57
Speaker
and there's very little that I don't like in terms of food but when I was a kid I didn't like curry she left curry so one particular night she'd made a curry she knew I wasn't going to eat it and she said well you're not having anything then and so I said well can I make myself a sandwich she wouldn't let me she wouldn't let me have anything to eat but I had not had lunch at school that day
00:43:23
Speaker
because I hadn't been given any money to buy lunch. So I'd gone to school. I'd gone to school without breakfast. I'd then not had lunch at school. It was the evening I hadn't eaten. And then she refused to even let me make something for myself. And it was just one evening where they were just both pecking at me, both going on at me. And I just thought, I've got to get out. So I went round to my friend's house.
00:43:52
Speaker
And they'd just finished dinner and there were all their pots and pans and plates left in the kitchen. And my friend's mum caught me stealing potatoes off a plate. And she said, oh, hasn't your mum fed you? And I said, no, she wouldn't. She wouldn't feed me tonight.
00:44:06
Speaker
And so she gets straight on the phone to my mum. Why haven't you fed your daughter? You can imagine. I cooked her a lovely meal. She refused to eat it. She threw it in my face. Blah, blah, blah, blah. So then, you know, my friend's mum gets off the phone and starts telling me of how dare I lie about my mum. My mum does everything. Everything for me. Why am I lying about a horrible child? Go back home. Go and apologise to your mum.
00:44:37
Speaker
So I tried to disclose and I wasn't believed. And there were repercussions for that. And so that just shut you up. I just gave up. So actually, although it feels very official to ring someone like Childline, actually that's confidential and it's somebody who is there
00:44:59
Speaker
to be on your side. Yeah, yeah. But I guess I'd say, you know, if children aren't sure whether what's happening is abuse, if you're having to tiptoe around people, if you're having to drastically alter your behavior to accommodate somebody else's moods, if you're finding yourself having to second guess, you know, you're scanning someone up and down when they walk into a room and you've got to work out, are they about to kick off about something or are they all right? Is it okay for me to just stay here or do I need to get out of the room? Right.
00:45:29
Speaker
If you're having to make those kind of risk assessments when your parents are around, or your step-parents, or even your siblings, older siblings maybe, if you're feeling uncomfortable, if you're feeling that your space is not being respected, there's an issue. And there should be people that you can go to to talk to, there's a teacher that you trust.
00:45:55
Speaker
Obviously this has to have had an effect on what you've chosen to do with your life. Tell us a little bit about your activism roles. Well when I got to uni I'd done some volunteering when I was at school and it was really important to me to continue to find opportunities to carry on as a volunteer. And I knew that I lacked
00:46:17
Speaker
skills and volunteering was a good way of building up those skills outside of academic work. So I got involved with volunteering and I was working on a befriending scheme with disabled children.
00:46:29
Speaker
Oh, amazing. But then through that I found about the political activities in the Students' Union. Right. And there was a disabled students campaign, so I got involved with that and got involved with just campaigning and lobbying to make the university more accessible for disabled students and through that I got involved with the National Union of Students
00:46:52
Speaker
involved with other campaigns, campaigns around, you know, campaigning against the introduction of tuition fees at that time. Oh god, yeah. You know, loads of stuff going on, campaigning for better standards and quality of rented accommodation for students.
00:47:10
Speaker
All these kind of things that were affecting our lives and I was realising there were things that affect my life and I actually have a voice. I can take part in campaigns, I can be part of this collective voice trying to influence change and make the world a better place. There's no better place than university to do that, is there? Exactly, exactly. It's a real hotbed of activism. There's so many things you can get involved with. Whatever you're interested in, there is something there.
00:47:40
Speaker
And so yeah, so I got really involved with loads of stuff and started to meet more people, connect with more people and then start to realise I like being around people. Yeah. The communication barriers, you know, are difficult but when you meet people who are prepared to kind of make that effort to be inclusive, your world changes, you know.
00:48:05
Speaker
And you will meet those people eventually if you put yourself out there. Yeah, you've just got to be prepared to step out of your comfort zone. Try new things. Join a group. Go on an adult learning course. Get involved with.
00:48:19
Speaker
It doesn't matter what it is, extinction, rebellion, or amnesty, or whatever you feel passionate about. Or a local community group. If it is, you will then meet people who are like you. Yeah. And you will connect. I like that about getting outside of your comfort zone. Because actually, if you stay comfortable, you'll never move, will you? Yeah, yeah. And so all of the ways that I've developed in my life, and I've overcome my fears, have been through just saying, OK, this terrifies me.
00:48:49
Speaker
but I'm going to give it a go. The worst that can happen, it might not work out, but I'll learn something from it not working out. I love that. Yeah, exactly. So you were saying earlier about how the things, I can't
00:49:07
Speaker
express it the way you did. I can't remember how you said it, but basically the hardships that you went through have been what's made your life what it is. Can you elaborate on that? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've had challenges, many challenges in my life to overcome, but they've all shaped me and I've learned from them. And I think when you're on the receiving end of great injustice,
00:49:36
Speaker
you then see injustice around you and you realise it's kind of woven into the fabric of society. And so for someone who has experienced that, I want to do everything that I can do to remove those injustices from society so that the people who come behind me
00:49:54
Speaker
are, you know, have the opportunity to reach their full potential that they're not constantly held back and excluded by a society that isn't built for them and doesn't care about them. Yeah. Yeah. And is that why you've set up your charity as it seems well? Yeah. So there's a group of eight of us
00:50:15
Speaker
We're all survivors of domestic violence and we all strive to make a difference to the way that services are provided. So all of us in our stories there have been missed opportunities, there have been opportunities where we've tried to get help
00:50:36
Speaker
or we've come into contact with services who've then let us down. And for every single one of us, being let down by services very nearly cost us our lives. I could be another statistic, I could be another one of those women.
00:50:54
Speaker
who had been killed by their partner. And those are horrifying statistics in terms of the numbers. It's awful. Yeah. It's awful. And I think all of us are very conscious of that. And so what we do is about educating service providers to improve their policies, improve their practice, and improve how they provide services for women and their children who are experiencing domestic abuse, domestic violence, sexual violence.
00:51:23
Speaker
and just to make sure there are better systems in place for supporting women. But it's also about how do we tackle change in the culture and the attitudes that allow women to be treated this way in the first place. Because one of the things when you get involved with the domestic abuse sector, yes all of our stories are a bit different
00:51:49
Speaker
But you know what, they are so familiar. You speak to another woman about her experience of domestic abuse and you think, did all these perpetrators go to the same school? Have they all been, you know,
00:52:02
Speaker
taking their lessons from the same toolkit. They're all doing the same things, it's the same behaviours, same kind of phrases, same way of gaslighting and manipulating and controlling.
Advocating for Better Domestic Abuse Handling
00:52:13
Speaker
But all of us thought at the time that we were alone and that we were at fault and we didn't realise the only person who's responsible for abusive behaviour is that perpetrator. So we're all about raising awareness and creating change in the system.
00:52:30
Speaker
to try to reduce those numbers of women and children who are experiencing domestic abuse. That must feel really satisfying when you do manage to help somebody. It is, and when we see a service provider, you see that light bulb go on for people, like, oh my goodness, oh, okay, and this is what we should be doing. And you see that kind of commitment to
00:52:55
Speaker
Okay, we're going to take this to our board, we're going to take this to our senior people. Because no one legitimately wants to say, well yeah, it's fine that that happens. They obviously want to change it, but actually having it explained to them how they can change it.
00:53:11
Speaker
To be instrumental in that must feel amazing. Yeah, it is. It can be draining at times as well. Because whenever you deliver training or you give a presentation to a conference, in order to have an impact, you've got to draw on a very kind of personal story that is quite hard to keep pulling out of yourself. Do you get quite emotional sometimes?
00:53:36
Speaker
oh yeah yeah and it's um i've been doing it long enough you know i can i can do it but then i need to know that i've allocated time after this to recover to decompress to uh do something nice for myself yeah totally i get that completely i um i give talks to um parents whose children have been diagnosed with diabetes
00:54:05
Speaker
for the charities that I'm involved with. And I don't realise it at the time, but when I finish, I'm so incredibly tense. And I do just need to, like you say, decompress for a period of time. And I have actually built that time in to go somewhere nice or come home and just watch Netflix for an hour, whatever it is.
00:54:32
Speaker
It's really important to self-care when you do that kind of work. It's really, really important. It really is, yeah. Thank you so much. This has been a brilliant chat. Natasha, where can people find you if they want to be in touch or find out more about your work? Well, I'm on Twitter, on Hearst Photos, which is H-I-R-S-T photos. I'm also on Instagram, on electrodeaf14. It's no wonder I didn't find you there.
00:55:00
Speaker
Electrodaff 14. Yeah. Okay, I'll put this all in the episode notes. Okay. So those are the main places that you'll find me. Okay. And your charity is... Are you online? Yeah, it's called Seeds Wales. We're on seedswales.com, but it's a holding page at the moment, but keep checking back. There is some exciting stuff coming up. Yeah, brilliant. Oh, thank you so much. Thank you for having me.
Natasha's Positivity and Advocacy for Justice
00:55:32
Speaker
What I loved about Natasha's episode is the fierce positivity she has for turning around any kind of injustice. She talks about how important it is when you're in a difficult situation to put yourself out of your comfort zone and speak up.
00:55:48
Speaker
either to change things for yourself or to learn something that will carry you forward to a better place. Natasha has absolutely taken her own awful experiences and used them to not only improve her own life but to advocate for others who might be in vulnerable situations. Have a look at the episode notes for information on her domestic abuse education charity and there are also links you can visit if you're worried about either yourself or a child you know.
00:56:20
Speaker
There are loads more episodes of the Teenage Kicks podcast. Do have a browse and see if I've covered anything else you might find useful. And if you have a suggestion of something else you'd like to see talked about on the podcast, please do email me on teenagekickspodcast.gmail.com
00:56:39
Speaker
The next series I'm really excited about. I have some fantastic guests coming up who will help families navigate some of the most complicated but wonderful years of parenting. I've also got some posts on the blog that might help you in the meantime with other teenage parenting dilemmas so do pop over to Actually Mommy if you fancy a read. There's a link in the episode notes.
00:57:03
Speaker
As I said, this is the last in series one of my podcasts. I have loved it and I really hope you have too. It's been such a privilege to take part in these chats. Completely honest and sometimes raw conversations. My guests have all shown up for my listeners so that anyone who is dealing with something difficult can see the most important thing in my mind. It's possible to come out the other side and be happy again.
00:57:31
Speaker
no matter how bleak your situation looks right now. Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode I'd love it if you subscribe and come back soon for series two. I've got some really exciting guests lined up so please spread the word and I'll see you very soon.