Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Best of The Anxious Generation
51 Plays2 months ago
The Books Brothers’ best discussions from The Anxious Generation: How the Great Rewiring of Childhood Is Causing an Epidemic of Mental Illness by Jonathan Haidt.
Introduction and Part 1: A Tidal Wave (1:14 - 36:34)
- What are your thoughts on the author’s metaphor of “Kids [today] growing up on Mars”?
- When did you receive your first smartphone?
- The guys share their own negative experiences and consequences from their own phone use / screen time through the years.
Part 2: “The Backstory: The Decline of the Play-Based Childhood” (36:35 - 54:20)
- What are your thoughts on the author’s comments that there has been a decrease of risky play in the physical world but an increase in risky play in the virtual world?
Part 3: “The Great Rewiring: The Rise of the Phone-Based Childhood” (54:21 - 1:09:08)
- What are some specific ways you’ve combated against letting your phone and other technologies affect your spiritual life?
Part 4: “Collection Action for Healthier Childhood” and the Conclusion (1:09:09 - 1:29:28)
- How much do you agree or disagree with the statement Haidt addresses as it relates to technology / social media use: “I agree with making changes, but it’s too late”, and why?
- What is one thing you plan to apply from this book in your community (family, church, neighborhood, school, etc)?
- The guys share what’s next for the podcast, including our first ever panel interview, as well as the next book.
Additional resources
- Link to Let Grow: here
- Link to aligned organizations to Let Grow: here
- September is National Suicide Prevention Month. We all can help prevent suicide. Learn how here.
- If you or someone you know is in crisis, you can call or text 988 to reach the national Suicide & Crisis Lifeline and connect with a trained crisis counselor. You can also text HOME to 741-741 to reach the Crisis Text Line.
We’ll see you next week for our first ever panel interview! Join us as we speak with a Licensed Professional Counselor and a Pediatrician to discuss topics from The Anxious Generation even further.
When we return in October, we’ll read Gates of Fire: An Epic Novel of the Battle of Thermopylae by Steven Pressfield. You can buy the book on Amazon by clicking here.
You can also borrow it at your local library. Don’t have a library card, or unsure where your local library is? Search on Google Maps, or find your local library by clicking here.
Follow us on Instagram @booksbrotherspodcast
Email us at [email protected]
Please subscribe and give us a review! We would really appreciate it.
See you in two weeks! Until then - read, reflect, and connect.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to 'The Anxious Generation'
00:00:06
Speaker
Welcome back to the Books Brothers podcast, the podcast where longtime friends spread across the country reconnect over the pages of
00:00:29
Speaker
We just wrapped up our reading and discussion of the anxious generation, how the great rewiring of childhood is causing an
00:01:06
Speaker
about it. But until then, we hope you enjoy the best of the anxious generation.
Jonathan Haidt on Morality and Emotions
00:01:14
Speaker
Let's go through the introduction, shall we?
00:01:17
Speaker
I want to introduce the author, Jonathan Haidt. He is a social psychologist and a professor of ethical leadership who studies morality and emotions. His main scientific contributions have to do with figuring out the reasons we often make decisions based on gut feelings rather than logic and reasoning.
Impact of Smartphones on Gen Z's Mental Health
00:01:36
Speaker
He's written a number of other books, such as The Happiness Hypothesis, The Righteous Mind, The Coddling of the American Mind. And I, having read a couple of these, um I was just really impressed by the way he presents data, his conclusions, and how he also explores common counterpoints and counterarguments that are different from the one that he comes up with.
00:01:58
Speaker
So i'm excited about this one the book starts off by discussing the alarming rise in anxiety depression and other mental health issues among young people especially those born after nineteen ninety five or jinz. Author paints a picture about how many of these young people have been unknowingly subjected to an uncontrolled experiment as the first generation to come of age during the proliferation of smartphones, social media, and other attention-grabbing technologies.
Metaphor of Sending Kids to Mars
00:02:27
Speaker
He asked a hypothetical question to serve as a metaphor about the impact of technology on today's youth. Would we allow a visionary billionaire to recruit children for permanent settlement on Mars? How would it affect their growing brains and bodies?
00:02:44
Speaker
So what do you guys think about this metaphor? Was it too dramatic? And you know when did you guys get your first smartphone? Full disclosure, we're all millennials here. So I think we got a little bit of the tail end of this. But did you guys feel like a powerful pull from any of these things? Or do you remember that kind of as a younger person in high school or college?
Personal Reflections on First Smartphones
00:03:06
Speaker
So to answer the first part of your question, yeah, I did think that the metaphor about kids growing up on Mars was way too dramatic. That's the first thing that this book opens with. And then at my first, I was like, okay, this is just kind of far fetched and not a very relatable metaphor. You can have come up with something better than this. Well, why don't you write them books in Matt? I will not.
00:03:33
Speaker
I kind of agree. But, you know, thinking about it, it kind of makes sense. It's a, an area that no one had ever explored before. Nobody knew anything about it. Yeah. It's just all new territory for everyone. So I get how he came up with it. I just still didn't like it though. And then the second question, when did I get my first smartphone? I remember I got it when we were all living together minus Garrett in the Pentagon.
00:04:03
Speaker
I think it was over Thanksgiving break that I got my first iPhone. It was iPhone 4. And then I went back to Springfield and it was just me and Rob hanging out of the house. And I was setting up my phone. And one of the first things I got was Temple Run because I wanted to play a game on my phone. And I've just played it for hours and hours. And yeah, I got addicted to it.
00:04:28
Speaker
Not
Smartphones and Social Interaction Changes
00:04:29
Speaker
just Temple Run, it's a phone in general being tied to it all the time. I think we just had Facebook back then. I don't even think I had Instagram. No, because Instagram came out in what, 2012? I think but Facebook purchased it and acquired it in 2012. So it was around that. Yeah. So I really just had it for Facebook, some games on my phone, and then group texting. Group texting became a lot better with iPhones. so Yeah, I always thought that our age put us in a very interesting point when it came to smartphones. Because I think we all graduated in 2009, right? High school. Yeah, I graduated high school 2009. And I think that iPhone came out that year, like the year before. And so I feel like having an iPhone in high school would look so different.
00:05:19
Speaker
and the fact that we were a little older whenever we started getting smartphones, I feel like did make a huge difference. And I think I always kind of had thought that, but this book so far has really affirmed that. Wow. Yeah, really. I remember in um early high school, I distinctly remember a friend of mine complaining about how his girlfriend was like texting him too much because he only had so many characters he could send per
School Policies on Smartphone Use
00:05:44
Speaker
month. So many texts per month. Yeah. t nine So you compare that to, you know, having Facebook on your phone. I mean, it's so different how much communication happens. For us, it was, you know, we didn't really use our phones to communicate a ton through the day when we were in high school or definitely not middle school. But, you know, really just the next, you know, two, three years behind us is when that started happening.
00:06:09
Speaker
I still vividly remember receiving my first text message on my flip phone. I was like, wow, someone just like sent me this message and she's not even here right now. This is pretty cool.
00:06:22
Speaker
And then I remember my parents saying, Hey, when I give you this phone, you can only use it to call 911 or call us if it's a very urgent matter. Like that was their parameters because it costs so much money to make phone calls and stuff like that. So I had a phone and in high school, but it was a foot phone. And I remember at least at our high school.
00:06:47
Speaker
You would get one warning if a teacher caught you on your phone and then your second offense would be a four hour detention. I don't, you know, someone fact check me, but I feel like the schools have probably just capitulated and given up. Like we're not doing detentions. It's just part of life.
00:07:05
Speaker
Oh, like not. You're saying you don't think they're doing that all or for phones for being on your leg. If you were on your phone in class and the team, you'd get, you'd get written up and you'd go to the the principal's office. And if it was your second offense, it was an automatic four hour detention.
00:07:20
Speaker
I remember I had a patient and this was probably like six years ago that he was telling me that he used to take phones away from kids that you use them during class. And he would put them all in like a ah bucket or you know community area. um And he said that one time another student stole someone else's phone and he got sued. And the school didn't the school didn't like back him up, like but the parents sued him for that. And he was like, yep, I just let him be on the phone now. he's got um you know with how it is, like they're just gonna be on the phones.
Late Adoption of Smartphones and Social Media Influence
00:07:53
Speaker
What, in tarnation? Yeah. But I feel bad I didn't answer your question, Thomas. For me, um I feel like I was in college as well, Matt. I think I was probably either a freshman or a sophomore. And I think I've never been really like the most tech savvy. And so I don't really think that I was really good at utilizing a smartphone for all it was capable of at that time.
00:08:18
Speaker
I received mine for Christmas. It would have been January 2012 because I had just gotten back from studying abroad in China and I was in China past Christmas. So got my Christmas gifts at the turn of the new year and I got my first iPhone. And I remember it, you know, so Facebook, I had that in high school, but you had to go home, log on to your computer.
00:08:45
Speaker
Right. Chat up some honeys. Right. Well, no, that was aim. AOL instant messenger junior high, baby. They will never know. They will never know how good aim was, man. But then I do. I just remember like the quick adoption to your point, Matt, I download a temple run and boom, you played it for a few hours and never look back. I remember So that would have been within one or two years because I got it second semester, junior year. And I remember when I was president, yeah, so it would have been that same year. So in 2012, I remember threatening like at the chapter meetings. All right. When we go to initiation, like we're going to put, everyone's going to put their phones in a bucket or whatever. Because guys were just on their phones, like so many people on their phones during initiation, which was supposed to be the sacred time.
00:09:39
Speaker
People just like looked at me like, you're not taking my phone, like you're not in charge. you know it Obviously, it was like a ah power control thing on my end, but it was I'm sharing that to share like within the first year of me being back on the state side with a smartphone, with the majority of the fraternity with phones.
Smartphones' Integration into Social Life
00:10:00
Speaker
It was like, guys, like put your phone away for two hours during this initiation event, which is supposed to be like the most solemn, serious ah moment of the semester. And that's a very quick adoption and quick shift in our attention, moving to our screens on our in our pockets.
00:10:22
Speaker
So I was 16 when I got my first flip phone and it was just basically the call after games to come and pick me up. But then I don't remember when I got my first iPhone. it would It would have been college for sure. I just don't remember exactly when. I remember being more of a words of friends kind of guy.
00:10:43
Speaker
Remember that game? Oh, it's still big, I think. Is it? Yeah. There was another game I used to play all the time on there where you would build stuff. Clash of Clash of Clans, that was it. That's awesome. They got a lot of hours from Flez, I think.
00:11:09
Speaker
Yeah, but I don't remember being sucked into it though, like having a smartphone being an issue. Like now where it's, we have all these blockers out for screen time, you know, I don't remember there being so many apps. Yeah. Like internet was slow still back then, you know, like 2g wasn't very fast. Like it wasn't very fun to be on the internet on a smartphone until, I don't know, like almost after we got out of college, I feel like.
00:11:38
Speaker
and we were We were too busy
Addictive Nature of Smartphone Games
00:11:40
Speaker
yeah doing a bunch of shenanigans to be on our phones. Playing basketball. but Nerf basketball. Yeah. Lifting things up and putting them down. I remember before right before everyone got iPhones, we used to just knock people's phones out of their hands.
00:12:00
Speaker
ras Like rabs, rabs specifically. I remember one time we were bowling and Jordan Paskey had just finished bowling. And then Thomas did a crab walk up behind him. And then as soon as Jordan Paskey turned around, he had his phone out. Thomas kicked his leg out while doing a crab walk.
00:12:26
Speaker
it' fun with why that's all there there was Thank you, Matt. I had forgotten. Forget about that too. That's funny.
00:12:37
Speaker
I didn't get my first iPhone or first smartphone until graduating college. I was kind of a late adopter on multiple fronts. I didn't get my first phone till like sophomore year of high school. I think my parents just, yeah, it was too expensive at the time and it wasn't a necessity and I think it was fine. I think I would have been, the only thing I regret with not having a smartphone during college is all of the gold that was captured that ah Thomas recorded since he had a smartphone. yeah but all All of the college videos, and maybe some of those are okay that they didn't get recorded. but
Gen Z's Communication through Snapchat
00:13:20
Speaker
and man I recorded everything I could in low definition 480p.
00:13:30
Speaker
But Garrett, what you were talking about with the like taking phones away and stuff. So I was supposed to go on the conference that I go to with the teens that I chaperoned for this past weekend, but I i couldn't go just due to closing on the house. But we there's a part of the retreat that we take the phones away from the teens for like two days. And it is like the most joyful the time of these kids' lives because it's like the first time that they've ever been like held away from the things that aren't right in front of them, right? Or they have to focus on what's right in front of them and truly be present. And that's when they really come to life. So it's it's really cool to to watch how um taking away technology only helps people
00:14:23
Speaker
live more presently and fully and in community, which we all know about is we try to get connected, but we're probably less connected, uh, now than we've ever been in reality. I know Rob, but like you spend a lot of time with folks of this age group. And I feel like that's pretty invaluable for being able to reflect on this book because I personally don't, and it's really cool that you do. So I mean, like,
00:14:52
Speaker
I don't know. Do you think you've noticed like a big difference? If you can kind of remember back to how you were certain ages, like, have you noticed that? That, oh man, this is a lot different than when I was, you know, 14 or 16. I had one of these teens pull up their Snapchat.
00:15:10
Speaker
And he, no joke, not exaggerating, showed me 30 Snapchats all in a row from all of his buddies. And they were all just different angles of the other person's face on the other line. And they didn't say anything.
00:15:28
Speaker
like they were just like, or the or if they did say something, it'd be like a one word like sub or at home or whatever. But they were all just like, face selfies from different orientations. And it's just like, I'm so glad that I didn't grow up as much with that where it's like, that they're not even sending anything of value, you know,
00:15:54
Speaker
I recall whenever, so this is probably like 10 years ago, maybe eight years ago, Ruth and I used to help with the youth that are at our church. And I remember um one of the middle schoolers saying that if she had a picture she posted that didn't get 50 likes that she would take it down. I was like, that's insane. Yeah. Crazy. It's a lot of likes too, man. Shoot, I was happy with three. I've done stuff like that before.
00:16:21
Speaker
I'll admit it. Yeah. Yeah. yeah i'm I'm happy. I'm happy with three and one of them's me.
00:16:29
Speaker
Hey, that's how I am with books brothers podcast. Hey, like and subscribe. like You just got to get it to get the train rolling. fli you You can change it to, instead of it saying the light count, it just says and others. So people don't actually know the, Oh dude, I don't care anymore. I'm talking about like in my twenties, back in the day, you go man way to go. now You have, I mean, you have, to evolved. Yeah, you I mean, you have the most experience as a influencer, if you will, because you did have a lot of followers for a while. I have the most experience of the negative consequences of social media for sure.
00:17:11
Speaker
So before we get in that, let's go to Chapter 1 because I feel like that that's where it really starts talking about the ah consequences.
Data on Youth Mental Health and Policy Suggestions
00:17:20
Speaker
So Chapter 1 is titled The Surge of Suffering, and it discusses the surge of suffering among adolescents, why this is happening, and how parents feel powerless to help.
00:17:32
Speaker
So rates of major depression and teens has shot up over 140% since 2010. Rates of diagnosed mental illness among college students, anxiety among young people, and emergency room visits related to self-harm are also way up when compared to older age groups.
00:17:52
Speaker
um So in this chapter, there's a ton of great data, a bunch of graphs about different sort of consequences related to mental health in the younger age group. And the the author comes up with several solutions to address this. I'll just kind of skim over these. ah First, of course, limit smartphone use. ah The author suggests restricting smartphone use before high school.
00:18:22
Speaker
He suggests delaying social media until the age of 16 due to developmental timelines of children. He also mentions that it would be very easy to implement phone-free policies in schools. And lastly, he talks about promoting unsupervised play and encouraging children to get out and have face-to-face interactions a lot more often.
00:18:52
Speaker
So, Fles, let's go back to the the negative consequences. I mean, how do you feel like, I mean, I have my own experience, but I know that probably not really a whole lot compared to what you've been through. So what do you think, man?
00:19:05
Speaker
I feel like it's easy to get sucked into the virtual world and then your real world becomes limited. I mean, obviously he talks about that later on in this book, but I know from my experience, being in fitness and all that and trying to grow a following, grow a brand that almost becomes your life and that is your identity.
00:19:28
Speaker
Whenever that came to an end for me, that's when I really had struggles with mental health is because then at that point, what's your identity? You mean it came to an end like you're powerlifting? Yeah, that's like my Instagram is like me, like I'm a power lifter, like that's my identity. And so, um like if ever I ever ever got injured,
00:19:52
Speaker
and I couldn't post because I couldn't lift to post, then I would get to more i would get depressed. Um, and it's just kind of, does that make sense? Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think of a, uh, part of mainland is podcasts that I listened to on the way to Hawaii this last time, actually, where the guy talks about having like, it's like diversifying your identity in
Diversifying Identity Beyond Social Media
00:20:18
Speaker
a way. So like, okay, powerlifting, like I got injured, but I still have.
00:20:23
Speaker
my Bible study in Wednesday nights. I still have my, whatever, I don't know, pickleball club thing on Tuesday. It's like, but if it's only that, then like your whole world can go crashing down. And I think, I think that was my experience off and on in hindsight, but That's just from a fitness influencer standpoint. From like ah another standpoint, it's like if I make a post and like someone says something bad, it's like that causes anxiety. Or like if you post in general, it's like what's the response going to be? And then you have this built up anxiety.
00:21:04
Speaker
And i I noticed it later on whenever I was done with all that, that if I would post something, I would just get really bad anxiety because I was just like, what's the response going to be? And then it became, what's the point? Why am I forcing this upon myself? I'm done. You know, all I care about is you guys, my family, all these people that are real. So got out of the matrix.
00:21:30
Speaker
Nice. i I feel like what what you said about identity kind of reminds me a little bit of the last book we read about the psychology of money and the strategies that it talked about because it told you to diversify your portfolio and don't put all your eggs in one basket. And I feel like with social media, when you're online and you want attention, you do have to pick a brand like you have to pick a path and try and capitalize on that to get people's attention essentially, because there's a million other people out there trying to capitalize on whether it's fitness or the way you look or being funny or doing outrageous things. I don't know. like there's just it's so saturated It's such a saturated market that I do feel like you're right. It just makes people put all their eggs in one basket from like an identity standpoint. And then if that doesn't work out or they have to change,
00:22:25
Speaker
Or they feel like a failure in that particular path, like it's kind of detrimental because they don't have a whole lot of other outlets to be themselves, you know? I just want to first say, Fles, thanks for sharing, man. I think that it's always encouraging hearing you kind of talking through your history with that. And it's cool to see where you're at with it. And then kind of on more of a, as we started this, like doing this podcast, right? I think that this is something that we all had a concern about because we are a group of six guys who are Pretty not involved with social media and not really big about um projecting who we are on community platforms and such. And so I know that's one thing that we all had anxiousness about. And I feel like our our hope and our goal has always been to stay true to maintaining authenticity and knowing that
00:23:15
Speaker
these conversations that we have or they are they are authentic and we know that they can hopefully help encourage others.
Authenticity in Podcasting vs Social Media
00:23:22
Speaker
um And yet we're still being in a place where, yeah, we might you know encourage folks to listen in and stuff, but at the same time, and our our goal is to not necessarily become anything, but really just to be a part of helping a community of people. Absolutely.
00:23:38
Speaker
I don't know if you all ah would agree with that, but that's kind of, I know how I feel. And I know when we talked about things earlier on, uh, was a hope that we had. Yeah, I mean, even as we're playing in this new book, or this new season of the podcast, right, we're sending out messages to each other, you know, all right, who's leading tonight? And all right, Thomas, you got it. And Rob, you made a comment, like, I don't know if I'll be able to join that often. I don't know if I can do a lot on social media, or even like, I'll try to do I'll try to pick up the slack, though, the next book. And it's like,
00:24:13
Speaker
We're here to connect. it There's no expectation. you know This isn't about the pod. This is about the group. And if sharing our conversation encourages others to do the same and connect with others, then that's great. But it's it's definitely I've definitely felt that tension personally because it's been really fun to do. All right, how many people have listened this week? But coming back and re-centering what the ultimate value is. and and that's That's the idea behind technology. is It's like anything else. It's a tool. It can be used for good. There's a lot of good things. I love that I was able to FaceTime my parents when I was halfway around the world a decade ago. you know Or when we lived in Denver in the pandemic and we had a quarantine,
00:25:00
Speaker
And we just had a newborn that I was able to FaceTime my family and they could see my son, right? There's a lot of really good things, but like any thing in used in excess, whether it's money, you know, blue zones, talking about food, it can become ah it can become a bad thing.
00:25:21
Speaker
So I think ah something that helped me from this podcast was masking masculinity was in like total vulnerability. But for me personally, it forced rumination on past, which is a hallmark sign of depression. And so then then we read the about the Okinawans and how they deal with their stuff and they just live in the president. So that's that was like a healthy like, oh, yeah.
00:25:47
Speaker
It's good to live in the present and not ruminate so much on, like we've all been through stuff, but like the Okinawans have been through some crazy stuff and they don't live their life constantly, and you know, over therapy.
00:26:01
Speaker
ruminating. So thank God that varied books have been extremely helpful for all of us. And this one seems like it's going to be good too. But the other thing, I dated a Gen Z girl for like six months. So let's keep that in mind. And I got to say,
00:26:19
Speaker
The speed at which these young kids can view videos is insane. I mean, like, I had to be like, whoa, I didn't even see that last one. What happened there? You're already on the third video. Oh, like scrolling? Yeah. Yeah. Intentions, man, shortening.
00:26:39
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, again, like I was saying, our experience with like the 2G Internet just didn't allow for that. So, yeah, it's a different world. It's crazy how much it changed in like 10 years. A serious question when you dated her, was she able to like look you in the eye? She had to look down on him. What do you mean? She was six for five, right? So when you're when you're on the phone,
00:27:07
Speaker
when you were talking to each other. During what? and Amazonian.
00:27:14
Speaker
Got him. a This is what I mean.
Generational Communication Differences
00:27:18
Speaker
When you're on your phone all the time, when you're on technology, you you as we're reading the book, you you literally lose the ability, because you're not doing it, you're not spending time outside ah interacting with others, you lose the ability to interact with other human beings in real life.
00:27:36
Speaker
So I'm over, I would say I'm over the average age at my workplace for the first time in my life. And I work with a lot of people in Gen Z and ah we have one, you guys, I think I've shared, we have lunch together every day and you just sit by different people every day and you have to learn about their life. and I've learned someone, she's like 24 or 25, and she has shared she hates talking on the phone. ah She just doesn't want to do it because she's does it's not predictable. She doesn't know what the other person's going to say on the other line. and i'm like I thought she was kidding at first, and she wasn't.
00:28:19
Speaker
Like talking on the phone, that's how I grew up. Like if you wanted to call, if you wanted to call a girl or if you wanted to talk to a girl, you couldn't text me. You had to literally call her and hope that her parents wouldn't join the phone line. Stay married, Garrett. Please, truth of the love of God, stay married.
00:28:36
Speaker
So yeah, like we had a new hire this week and and so that's what I meant by like making eye contact. I go over, she's clearly very young and I shake her hand and I just noticed like she's like darting her eyes. Like she can't, she's not looking at me.
00:28:54
Speaker
um Maybe she thought you were really attractive. We're really intimidating. Too ashamed by looking at him. Hey, probably from what you had on your name tag, what'd you end up going with? Oh my gosh, Rob. you are I appreciate that you care about my job title so much. Bro, you asked us. You asked us for your body. No, it's funny you asked that. They're just now starting to print those out, so I still don't have mine. But what'd you submit?
00:29:23
Speaker
I mean, I put my real title, but I included slightly ginger on there, stuff like that. I don't, I don't remember. I think I put podcasting like interests of mine. The secret nipple. No, there's, there's certain things that must be. Is that, is that the title of ah our next book?
00:29:48
Speaker
Yes. this
00:29:55
Speaker
Yeah. So that, that's what I meant by like, what, what she, wasy did she look you in the eye was when you, I just said eyes. Sorry. If I made that weird, I just meant like you guys like went out to dinner and stuff like that. Like were you able to like hold conversations or was she on her phone the whole time? Was she able to like look did longer than a half second? and I'm not exaggerating. Yeah. I'm extremely intentional. So like if she would have been, I would have told her like, Hey, it's disrespectful.
Dating and Phone Etiquette
00:30:24
Speaker
um serious Let's clarify. They went to the park and then they went to mini golf. i reckon i I recommend you crab walk up to her and kick her phone. and not paying at I have deep conversations. What I mean by that is I have deep conversations with girls about stuff like this. So like, yeah, she wouldn't, she wouldn't have been, on no, we went up to dinner a few times and she wasn't on her phone.
00:30:53
Speaker
but I mean, that's a that's a good point for anybody listening who's younger and dating though, Garrett, because I yeah i don't know how that whole world works anymore. it fli you're You're the most enlightened one here. And from what I've heard, it's kind of tough. She would have argued that she was borderline millennial Gen Z. but okay so That sounds like a very Gen Z thing to do. this year sounds's very just I'm special. No, I'm special.
00:31:20
Speaker
I'm different than both. According to anybody older than us, we were special too. Everybody says that about us too. Yeah. I think that's a good point to bring up though, Garrett. The author in the intro, he kind of talks about the difference between the real world and the virtual world. And there's four main points that he lays out. um So when he talks about the real world, it means that They are interactions are embodied.
Real vs Virtual Interactions
00:31:51
Speaker
You can use body language, you can use physical interaction, and you can respond immediately to those reactions. The second one is synchronous, which means that they're happening at the same time um with subtle cues about timing and taking turns talking. And then there's either one to one conversations or one to several communication. And then the fourth one is a high bar for entry and exit, which means interactions within communities,
00:32:19
Speaker
People are strongly motivated to invest in relationships and repair rifts when they happen. Versus the virtual world, all communication is disembodied. There's no body language. That's asynchronous. So it could be over text or posts or things like that. So you don't get that immediate reaction unless it's alike or something, but you don't have that instantaneous body language reading.
00:32:46
Speaker
And then there's it's only one to many communications. So if you're posting on social media, you post something and then a ton of people see it. And then last one is in the virtual world, there's a low bar for entry, which means people can just block you or stop talking to you completely instantly. That one scares me the most. Yeah. So.
00:33:10
Speaker
I think Garrett's question to Fuzz was spot on. It's a valid question. Gen Z is used to growing up in a virtual world where they're just missing all these basic human interactions, social connections, physical connections that we all grew up with. Everyone in the history of the world grew up with, except for this generation.
00:33:35
Speaker
It's super sad, really. And it's not their fault, you know? They they didn't really know. and And I don't know if their parents did either, really. In that way, the whole Mars metaphor makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I actually like the metaphor. At first, I agreed with him and I was like, this is this is strong. And then as he started laying out his questions, it's like you'd ask questions like, hey, how how will their bodies respond to time and gravity and You would ask questions before you would just let the kids go on this trip with this CEO. Yeah, we asked almost zero questions and have little to zero, obviously zero parameters to blocking youth from creating social media accounts. Like you have to check this box if you're over 13 and anyone, like there's no verification.
00:34:31
Speaker
And yet but it is such a drastic, dramatic comparison. But when you think about the effects that he lays out throughout the book, it's like, ah these are having serious effects that to somewhat or extent mirror, like an equivalent dramatic experiences if you move to Mars. So I did, I did end up liking it. Let's take a quick break for a word from our sponsors.
00:35:00
Speaker
You did it again. You promised yourself you wouldn't. But when the time came, you gave in once more. No, I'm not talking about looking at porn. You clicked I agree to Instagram's monthly updated terms agreement when opening its app again. Despite learning that the social media companies evade every type of potential safeguard against your data,
00:35:22
Speaker
and sell your information to profit their shareholders and potentially expose your identity to the dark web, you just can't get yourself to spend 10 minutes combing through 6-point font legal jargon.
Satirical Take on Social Media Terms
00:35:34
Speaker
Besides, you already tell yourself you'll hit agree anyway. Don't worry, there's a solution for victims like yourself through our non-profit organization Hammer Time.
00:35:43
Speaker
At Hammer Time, we take your data privacy extremely seriously. Text or call 816-246-6050 and have a Hammer Time volunteer personally visit your house, take a literal hammer and destroy your phone. You won't have to worry about any of your data being sold any longer because you just won't have a phone. It's not your fault that these social media companies exploit your human psychological needs and use it for their profit and your demise.
00:36:10
Speaker
Call today and let hammer time do the work that you should have the self-discipline to do yourself. Hammer time because using a hammer is just more satisfying. That was good. Was that your number, the 816 number? was that That was my home number growing up. Somebody's getting all these calls. chat at least missouri And now back to the show.
00:36:35
Speaker
I think one thing that I also found really interesting in this chapter was, and you've already hit it on a little bit, Thomas, but the concept of lack of risk risky play in the physical world, but yet more dangerous play in the virtual world. Yeah.
Parenting Challenges with Online Activities
00:36:52
Speaker
What did you all think about that? And do you have any thoughts on that? Well, yeah, I think we need to give historical context as well for the reason why parents have started to be become like this and they've liked the term stranger danger. I remember him talking about how, you know, stranger danger and all the pedophilia from the church yeah and but boy scouts and all kinds of horror stories. So I mean, it's, you can't really, can't really blame parents for
00:37:24
Speaker
becoming more paranoid when all these kind of stories are coming out. That's a good point. And so I think that that historical context needs to be laid out before just as like a balance of, okay, this is why it's like this.
00:37:40
Speaker
But, I mean, he gives that quote, though, that's, you know, it's almost like shows how then what happens and if we're kind of like not putting in machines in the virtual world, where I think it was a 10-year-old who was quoted, she wrote an article, she wrote an essay in the Free Press. She was a 14-year-old, and she was talking about how at age 10 is when she was first exposed to watch pornography, or post-explores to pornography.
00:38:07
Speaker
And, you know, she ends with saying, where was my mother? She was likely in the next room making sure I was eating nine differently colored fruits and vegetables on the daily. And so I think there you see it's like, Adam, you're saying great intentions, but it just shows how the lack of the knowledge of the virtual world, yeah like how harmful that can be as like a parent if you're just like letting your kid go on to the virtual world. virtual world Again, it's kind of like growing up without it though, the parents have no context of how harmful that can be really as a kid yeah because they never experienced that. So like to them, as long as the kid's not playing out in the street and getting hit in my cars, like they feel like, oh, my kid's safer than if they're on the tablet in the next room, at least they're there, you know, at least I can keep an eye on them even if I really don't know what they're surfing on the web. So, I mean, both, but I think both of you guys have really good points about that.
00:39:06
Speaker
I would just add, and I'm curious what you all think. I struggle with comments like that because I hear them a lot. We didn't know in the past or this is the first generation. Parents didn't know when they gave their kids cell phones. I struggle with that because my parents did almost all of the things that this book and other books like would recommend.
00:39:35
Speaker
From the days of dial up, my dad had a like a covenant eyes, like internet blocker. I mean, naturally I would find ways around it, but it blocked all, you know, I mean, it blocked a lot. I mean, it really did. Like yeah when I say I got around it, it was, I would just say like PG-13, like very like, yeah, PG-13 stuff, which for a teen or, you know, at my age, a young teen, it was a big deal.
00:40:03
Speaker
But they they did that. And then I mentioned last week that they maybe keep the phone in the kitchen. I didn't have a computer in my room. I didn't have a TV in my room. And I think I sometimes just struggle. They didn't have they didn't have these books, quote unquote, they didn't have life before a cell phone. Yet they took precautions.
00:40:29
Speaker
So are they an outlier or what? I don't know. Uh, it's hard for me to reconcile when I hear like people just didn't know this is the first generation. It's like, yeah, but i have they were like, my, they were like, our son is a teenager. He's going to try to look at nudity if he gets a chance and nudity is on the way. I'm assuming that was, it was just like, they didn't need like 10 years of data and graphs to figure that out.
Parental Responsibility in Technology Use
00:40:56
Speaker
But what do you, I mean, I don't know. Well,
00:40:59
Speaker
Do you see my conundrum there with those statements? It's no it's no excuse. You're totally right. Well, and maybe, and maybe really what it is, is like a movement away from, it's like and another form of risky play. It's another form of like rebellion, like disobedience. Cause I mean, I think we can all like relate to the idea that in your teen years, in these definitive years, you have a desire to do things also that are just like what your parents don't want you to do. And so having connection to internet is just like one other form to access that.
00:41:33
Speaker
But I think, I think it's a good point Garrett. I think, I mean, I think that it is kind of a, you know, it's a comical cop-out maybe. Do you think that's what it is? And again, it's, I'm not asking rhetorical questions like,
00:41:47
Speaker
I mean, I have a lot of respect for my parents. Again, I hated it when I was growing up, and now I'm planning to emulate it almost to a T. I think it's more complex than that, though, because today's technology is so much different. Today's culture that the kids are growing up in puts so much more pressure on them to be online all the time. So i I think you have a great point in terms of not letting that be an excuse to let your kids run wild online. But I do think you have a much harder time dealing with modern pressures than your parents probably did back then, because like not everybody actually had a cell phone. It wasn't really normalized yet at our age, you know, at or at the young age that we were back then. Maybe. Should that answer, Garrett? I don't know. I mean, it still sounds like an excuse when I say it. So I think that hits on what I was saying earlier, though, that this book isn't about Gen Z. Do you know what I'm saying?
00:42:44
Speaker
Yeah, when we give kids a phone, it is for selfish reasons. When your kid is like, um I've done it when your kid is screaming. If I just give him a phone, he'll shut up. And then people won't look at me at this restaurant. And then you know, well what do you do? What do you what do you do when you're bored? What do I do when I get your phone?
00:43:10
Speaker
Pick up your phone. Oh, oh, okay. I give it to yourself. Yeah. I mean, yeah, yeah I get what you're saying. Yeah. i And that goes back to what I was saying earlier is like, these things are like passed down. It starts with the adults. and So yeah, I don't know if it's just like, that's a good point. I think of a statement that I heard when open AI our chat GBT first came out and then there was a lot of the concern from the very companies that created OpenAI and how they went before Congress and testified and were like, you all really need to put parameters and implement laws. They were like, hey, we created this and now it might get out of control. So you need to put like guardrails on us.
00:44:01
Speaker
I don't know. it's It's just like kind of weird. You know what I mean? It really seemed like ah an odd thing. And it's like, just handle it yourselves. Why do you need, you know, so I think sometimes it's like, Oh gosh, I just, I want easier parenting in the short term. So let me give you a phone. Let me put on three hours of TV or because then I can just do what I want or, you know, and it is hard. It's harder in the short term to not give into the easier things.
00:44:29
Speaker
but as we're seeing long term it's having consequences and i don't think i buy i don't think you're saying this thomas but What you are saying, it kind of comes off to me as like, we're more advanced, like we're smarter than the generations of the past. So it's like, Oh, it's harder now than it was 20 years ago. I just don't know if I believe that there are different challenges.
00:45:00
Speaker
But my it's what is the social media today will be something else 20 years from now. The example I gave 20 years ago or when we were growing up is TVs and computers in everyone's room.
00:45:17
Speaker
Like there's always, there's always going to be social pressure. And I think you hit on it. And it's a very key point that you said, Thomas is a lot of what we do with our kids is us being impacted by our own peers. Well, all of our, all of my friends are doing it with their kids. So I don't want to be that lone parent that doesn't, and my kids on the outside. Hmm.
00:45:43
Speaker
and And that's, that's kind of, I think honestly the main pressure today that is different than maybe for our parents because our, like I had mentioned in the last episode, my, my parents had a screen time rule for us.
00:46:00
Speaker
And after we had looked at screens for so long, we had to turn it off. But the technology was still so limited to where, yeah, you could get around things or kind of like sneak around and try to watch more TV or be on the internet more. But there are just so many more ways today for that to occur. And then there's so much more pressure today for kids to be online. I mean, like,
00:46:23
Speaker
The main motivation for me for watching TV or playing video games when I was a kid was just basically to not be bored. It wasn't social. That's because it didn't exist yet, though. And I think that's probably where like.
00:46:37
Speaker
we might just disagree, which is fine. I like when we have these kinds of conversations, but it's just like, I'm not, I'm not saying, I'm not saying it's any easier or harder necessary for parents to to put their foot down today than it was back then. I'm just saying that the landscape is much different in which these kids are growing up and that has to be taken into account when you actually try to implement something. You know what I mean? Sure.
00:47:02
Speaker
I think, yeah, I agree with that. I think the only thing I was saying is every generation has their own deal, whether it's the radio in the 20s or the TV in the 40s or, you know what I mean? It sounds so, oh, black and white TV. But it's like, yeah, I mean, I had kids who, or I had friends who couldn't fall asleep. Like, did did you all fall asleep to the TV on? Like, I can't do that. I like. No, heck no. Did you, Thomas? No.
00:47:28
Speaker
No, but I remember my parents had a TV in their bedroom and they would fall asleep. um I had friends who would do that. And I'm like, how is this possible? Like I'm only allowed an hour of TV a day or you know what I mean? Like it's like there's there have been screens. They just to your point, they look differently. But I think that.
00:47:47
Speaker
social pressures, the peer pressure, the the desire to fit in, not have your kids be ostracized or made fun of because they don't do that, have this, that everyone else. I think that is the same regardless of what the screen looks like or the pressure of the, but I feel like I'm being redundant. it So I'll stop. It's a good conversation though. Well, I like that. I like that you zoomed out.
00:48:10
Speaker
of Gen Z because we focus a lot on this one generation. And I think as somebody who's older, that's actually made me maybe not reflect on how these things affect me in real time as much like we did on in some other books that we've read. But we should be using this data, not only to kind of judge how You know, kids are growing up now and kids are going to grow up in the future, but also judge like, okay, well, these, we know these are extremely detrimental. These technologies can be extremely detrimental during the sensitive parts of your life.
00:48:50
Speaker
But we still don't know like long term effects for people our age, people older than us, you know, people that retire and all they do is sit on their phones, right? I mean, it it really affects every every age group yeah in different ways, probably. and And we still are in this ah experiment, right? Like we're just starting to figure that out. And what you also said about the different time periods with different technologies where you have radio that gets invented and all of a sudden listening to a radio programs, the devil, and it's going to corrupt you. and And then you have color TV. And then that's the next thing that's going to rot your brain. And then you have, you know, it just goes on and on. the whitepe so
00:49:38
Speaker
has every, I mean, has every generation that sees a new technology to grab our attention had people that were alarmist like the author of this book is. And saying the word alarmist kind of makes it seem like what this author is saying isn't true. I don't believe that. I think what he's saying is true. But yeah, I think every generation has its overreactions and fears.
00:50:07
Speaker
There really is, though, something to be said about really there's been a movement from reality to a to a virtual world that you can interact
Gym Culture and Personal Technology
00:50:17
Speaker
socially. Yeah, you can't interact with the TV. You can't interact with the radio in the same way. That's a big one. so I think that it is a bigger transition. And yeah, who's to say there may not be something else like that in the future?
00:50:32
Speaker
One thing that kind of makes me sad, I don't know what your guys experience is when you go to the gym now, but in high school when I would lift at the gyms, some people may have like wire headphones in, but typically there was music playing over the entire gym speakers and it was like fairly engaging with the people you're around.
00:50:51
Speaker
And I just noticed now everyone's got their own headphones and like the gym can be completely silent and no one's talking to one another. It's kind of like sad. You ah you go to a gym and they don't play music. Well, it's the company gym. So it's like I go. Oh, i yeah, it's not. It's not like a.
00:51:09
Speaker
They just play advertisements for your company on. It's like going to a hotel gym, right? yeah hotel gym Yeah, for sure. But I feel like if you can train hard in a hotel gym, then like you're a beast. It's true. Just go into like that tunnel. well Even if that music is on, the point being that people still got their own headphones in. Yeah. And there's not much engagement, but who cares? I'm rambling.
00:51:35
Speaker
Hey man, I've been working out of my clubhouse gym Mondays and Wednesdays and going to Baker box gym on Saturdays. That's awesome, man. Kind of reminds me of a hotel gym though. Yeah. I feel like if you can do that though, it's like, that's a separate level of discipline.
00:51:52
Speaker
that like that you can train in a place that has that, you know, it's just like much less stimulus. it yes It's just good. It's a challenge for me to not want to go back to st you know back to my old gym and pick up a yeah yeah yeah but pick up some heavy weights pick up some heavy weights, but I do that on Saturdays so that I don't have to, because my commute now is all wacky since I moved.
00:52:18
Speaker
Yeah. Do you think if you ah got a Bluetooth speaker and started blasting some tunes like at a regular interval every week at the complex gym, maybe put up some posters about how that's when you're going to be working out that people would want to join and ah enjoy the hardcore atmosphere that you, the vibe that you put off? The house mix, house mix, or the bass center.
00:52:45
Speaker
Yeah, there you you're gone. I think you might get some takers on that, man. Yeah. I don't know if I'm going to like what's going to show up or not, but we'll see. Hey, man. Start the in-person community there and just see what happens. No, you're right. You're right. In-person community is a good thing. Yeah. It's huge. Let's take a quick break for a word from our sponsors.
00:53:12
Speaker
Feeling down? You're not alone. Many people find that the modern world can be an overwhelming place. Traffic. Spilling your Starbucks. Tummy aches. Not being able to afford that Apple watch you wanted. It's stressful. Maybe you need someone to listen to you. Even a normal person to offer some perspective.
00:53:32
Speaker
What are you waiting for? Pick up the phone and call our hotline. We'll hook you up with one of our third world therapists. No, they aren't real therapists, but they can help. And we're trained in one of our call centers for at least two weeks. They'll attempt to understand your so-called problems and respond by telling you how insignificant they are. Lost your dog? Well, at least your entire village isn't facing famine and a cholera outbreak at the same time. Having trouble getting to sleep because your air conditioning broke?
00:54:02
Speaker
Most third world therapists don't even have electricity yet. Ignorance is bliss. Third world therapy. You have problems? We disagree. You just need an attitude adjustment.
00:54:18
Speaker
lets go and now back to the show Let's go ahead and move on to the last section of the reading here. So in the last section of part three, Haidt talks about how modern technology, specifically smartphone, affects our spiritual lives.
Spiritual Practices Disrupted by Smartphones
00:54:32
Speaker
Haidt, although acknowledging that he is an atheist, notes that there is abundant evidence that spiritual practices and improve well-being. And he argues argues that modern technology disturbs or disrupts these practices.
00:54:43
Speaker
Spirituality improves our mental health through the physical community provided, embodied activity, the silence or stillness offered by prayer and meditation, seeking higher virtues, practicing forgiveness and by finding awe in nature. If you look at all six of these practices, it is easy to see how a phone-based life can interfere.
00:55:00
Speaker
Hite ends this section talking about the concept of humans having a god-shaped hole. He then astutely states that if the hole doesn't get filled with something noble and elevated, modern society will quickly pump it full of garbage. That has been true since the beginning of the age of mass media, but the garbage pump got 100 times more powerful in the 2010s.
00:55:20
Speaker
So, as a group of Christian men, I think that this last section gives us a help reminder of the harms of getting sucked into a phone-based life. So, for you guys, what are some specific ways in which you have combated the desire to let your phone and other modern technology affect your spiritual life?
00:55:36
Speaker
Mindfulness and nature are my top two, for sure. The finding on nature part I can relate to a lot. Whenever I put my phone down and I'm in nature, I contemplate a lot more and I can experience more gratitude for like real world things. you know I get that a lot when I'm in nature and then meditation obviously helps my prayer life, helps me be more focused and attentive, can snap out of it when I'm doing like a bad habit, like looking at my phone, looking at my phone. Oh, I'm looking at my phone and then oh, no, I'm not looking at my phone. Like I'm much better at that. The catching it part if you're scrolling or something, I don't really do that that much anymore. Yeah.
00:56:19
Speaker
I think my hard things now are checking email. That's what I get urges for, is just checking email on my work phone. But that's something I've been working on, trying to set up times where, okay, like I check my email at like four o'clock and that's it. Or like at 10 a.m. and 4 p.m. and that's it. Trying to be work on that. I have to commend you, Fuz. You are very intentional about getting out in nature. and I have to, man. I have to.
00:56:50
Speaker
Yeah, but you don't like you actually choose to like you do a really good job And I just have to give you a lot of props because over the last couple of years I've seen You do a lot of things that I'm like, man. I should be doing that. That's really awesome. yeah I think it's encouraging For sure. So what is your we kind of all know for the most part? But did you mind sharing a little bit what getting out nature looks like for you?
Mindfulness through Nature
00:57:12
Speaker
Yes, I have a dog. If I have to take her on a walk, it's going to, you know, I might as well take her somewhere that's better than just my, cause I live in like a more suburban area now. So like a walk outside of my apartment now is not with as much green stuff. So I have to take an intentional trip somewhere now. It's usually the only five, 10 minute drive, even to like a short trail.
00:57:37
Speaker
Just to walk for, I don't know, half hour, a mile or two is all, I mean, it doesn't take a ton. I mean, you don't have to go do a 10 mile hike every day. I mean, shoot a mile or two in nature every day or every other day is extremely helpful. It's time where you can put your phone down and stop playing a video game and go out and do that. and You may think of something, that's when your mind wanders, you get creative. You might think of something, oh, I forgot to do X, Y, or Z, or, oh, I should do this. Or a lot of times I'll have thoughts like that where I'm like, yeah, if I hadn't gone into this walk and then I wouldn't have done that. That answer your question? Oh, yeah. Yeah.
00:58:17
Speaker
Thanks for sharing again. and As Thomas mentioned, I feel like you've definitely... I've always been trying to be an outdoors person, but I feel like seeing your passion for a girl has definitely helped my passion. Yeah. And I try to like once a month, I'll mark on my calendar a longer hike, usually somewhere where I have to drive to, but it's decent like on a weekend. And that kind of gives me something to look forward to every month, for sure.
00:58:41
Speaker
I'm really stoked to go spend some time outdoors with you guys soon. Heck yeah. Heck yeah. For me, just to answer your question, journaling has been big. You have to be focused when you're journaling. You can't necessarily multitask because you're using your hands to write. so That's one way that has definitely helped me stay off of my phone. I do use my phone to read parts of the Bible, like the daily reading. So I do that every morning. So I am using my phone, but I'm reflecting and it's actually a tool in that sense, rather than I would say something harmful.
00:59:25
Speaker
But yeah, I mean, just trying to, whether I'm going to church to like pray specifically, not just attend mass service, but to go there, it's important to flip my phone upside down, to put it on, do not disturb. I'm not going to lie. I mean, there's times where I check the time or I get distracted and.
00:59:46
Speaker
I think for me, it's the conscious effort of going out of my way to go there, to physically go there so that I try to maximize and make the most of it rather than sitting at home and saying, saying I'm going to pray, but then it only lasts five minutes and I'm back on my phone, you know, trying to inconvenience myself with it. But those are some specific ways.
01:00:11
Speaker
For sure. I found it interesting though. So did he claim or did he make the statement that he was atheist in this chapter? yeah dan I mean, it's powerful that he recognizes the the God shaped hole that is in everyone that needs to be filled with that. So I'd be curious to know what he fills that hole with. It is very interesting that he does concede that there are such big reasons that being spiritual or are good for us, but doesn't choose to do
Secular vs Sacred: Technology's Impact
01:00:41
Speaker
that.
01:00:41
Speaker
You know, yeah I love the quote about society pumping you full of garbage. Yeah. I mean, it's just so you can just see it everywhere, man. Such a vivid example, too. It's so true. Yeah. And it's so easy to fall into is the other thing. Like, I can't even blame anybody who gets pumped full of garbage because it's like, yeah, I could see how I could do the same thing.
01:01:04
Speaker
But, I mean, it's cyclical too. Matt had mentioned this a bit ago, but it's like you feel crummy, so you go to something that... And again, that's like we the addiction side where you are trying to do something that you don't want to do, you're trying to do it to help yourself, but it's like you can't do that. You know, I was just out in the middle of nowhere, basically.
01:01:27
Speaker
with very bad cell service, horrible internet for work for like a little over a week. And I found myself having a lot of time. to just kind of be bored, stare at the wall. Rob had mentioned there was a trend on social media where people are trying to raw dog a flight. And what they mean by that is they just stare at the wall the entire flight and don't watch a movie. They don't listen to music. They don't look at the phone. They just sit there. They stare at the flight map the whole time. They stare at the flight map and the tiny little plane moving across the screen. And they raw dog that flight the whole time.
01:02:05
Speaker
And I tried that for like 30 minutes. And I was like, oh my gosh, dude, this is so brutal. But it's crazy. Dude, I did that. I did that on the way to Hawaii because my headphones died. You scared at the map? You didn't even sleep? No, I didn't have anything to do. Like I just literally was in the middle seat. So there's a person next to me on each side and I didn't have anything to do because I just didn't prepare well, I guess.
01:02:34
Speaker
You're an absolute legend for that had to stare the ri good scene ahead of me because I could sleep either because there were people here was awful I mean I I mean the modern the modern human brain being so distracted all the time would get like PTSD immediately from having to do that like you just be like but you could handle what it dated I was like, you know what? This is going to be like a cool meditation thing in about five minutes. And I was like, was you're like i take taking me back. I hate meditation. I used to do these treadmill runs where I would turn the lights out and literally just stare at the wall for like a 50, 50 minute treadmill run. So lights off just the wall in front of me.
01:03:17
Speaker
no stimulus and it was like one of those things is like, it definitely is mind numbing. You know what I noticed though, you you know what I noticed though is like, I feel, I felt a lot more excited about things in my life in the future because I had all that time. I felt a lot more excited to like make plans for myself and think, Oh,
01:03:39
Speaker
Man, I really would like to do this. This would be really cool if I could achieve that. Or like, hmm, how can I get to this point that I want to be at in life? And when my attention is split up so much throughout the day, those thoughts never really arise all that much. You know, so like journaling and meditation and, or just being bored for once for us an extended amount of time, I think allows us a lot of time for like maybe some of these things that are almost subconscious.
01:04:08
Speaker
that we really want to do or to achieve or to kind of like aspire to, actually come through and maybe turn into an actual thought that could lead to an action that you're really happy you you acted on. You know, it's a one I've been doing is no headphones at the gym. Just the sound of the just the iron, whatever, whatever it is. Yeah. And they look around now and it's like, holy cow, everybody's on their phone.
01:04:34
Speaker
Nobody's talking like it's just like you're right next to somebody you're not saying anything to that person I don't remember being with that much rocking out to party in the USA by Miley Cyrus Blasting over the Chinese speakers. Maybe maybe just gives music was better. I don't know That's like being in a silent disco. and you Take your headphones off. Yeah Oh
01:04:59
Speaker
Back to what Rob had brought up there and with all of her talking about like with the god shaped hole, you definitely see how modern technology with this gives one a sense more of I can just find the thing that will make me happy. Because it feels like there's just so many more ah things, you know, quote unquote things out there to be entertained by, to steal our attention. And I think with that, it makes sense that, you know, we get more allured to these things or, you know, spiritual growth, spiritual development, like the inward spiritual growth, the personal spiritual growth, of the time that it spends praying, meditating, reading.
01:05:36
Speaker
I'm not the best with that. I know I could do better about really making the time to do that because i I know I can get distracted and justify it by, oh, I'm you know i'm getting community in a Bible study or i'm I'm going to church on Sundays. But for me, it's going in and out of those phases of being a consumer um versus being someone who's really kind of initiating that growth for myself. Matt, anything you you any thoughts on your end?
01:05:59
Speaker
I don't know if I have anything additional from what you guys already said. I do like being in nature a lot. When I was in Tennessee on vacation, I would just go on on the back porch and look out the view and just enjoy it. Enjoy the sounds of nature. Look for bears jumping the lake with me, Matt. Yeah, I will. I did enjoy this last chapter, particularly the secular definition of the profane versus the sacred.
01:06:28
Speaker
I thought that was really cool how the profane is ordinary, self-focused consciousness. Sacred is the realm of the collective. And when we do things with a group of people, doing those things together can raise you up on the sacred realm. And then doing things individually, like looking at your phone is just a profane thing.
Community vs Isolated Phone Use
01:06:52
Speaker
It's a downgrade and there's nothing sacred to that.
01:06:57
Speaker
And he he did make the difference of, you know, there are things like meditation and prayer that our individual acts that can be sacred. But his point is just looking at your phone all the time, being addicted to that is you're isolated from the community. You're isolated from everyone else and everything that you're doing is just inwardly focused. It's a selfish thing to do.
01:07:25
Speaker
Let's take a quick break for a word from our sponsors. Do you ever miss, you know, those bracelets? I'm not talking about Taylor Swift's friendship bracelets. No, no, no. I'm talking about the WWJD bracelets, which if you didn't know, stands for what would Jesus do? Before the age of phones, you'd have a nice bracelet to constantly remind you of how guilty you should feel about what you just did. If you're seeking some modern day nostalgic throwback to the 90s, you have to install the newest app, WWJD.
01:07:57
Speaker
What would Jesus do digitally? Would Jesus really just swipe left nonchalantly or would he stop and pray for her first? Would he send that text after a second glass of wine? Would he respond on TikTok after someone slandered his name or would he throw back to his place? conscious pilot trial and remain silent. The only way to find out, aside from reading the text, that is the Bible, not an actual text message, is to download WWJD using our patented AI technology called DJ, which stands for digital Jesus.
01:08:33
Speaker
will constantly monitor your screen at all times. When your mom comments on your Facebook post and embarrasses you, bam, a pop-up on your screen will appear on how to respond with a gentle word. And that's just the beginning. Download What Would Jesus Do Digitally Today? That's W-W-J-D-D. Because long before the internet age of W-W-W, there was W-W-J-D. Know what he'd do by installing the app today.
01:09:03
Speaker
That's amazing. idea And now back to the show. So you talked earlier, Thomas, which is so true, the mindset of like, I don't want to learn. I don't want to like learn how to do tech stuff, like not having a growth mindset. That's a very real thing. Height, the author started part four, this entire section, but almost first paragraph, quoting someone. And I feel like we've all heard it and we've all probably said it ourselves, quote, I agree with making changes, but it's too late.
01:09:39
Speaker
basically pushes back on that. And that's what part four is all about of him essentially pushing back on that. Do you agree with that statement or disagree when you hear things as it revolves to technology? I agree with making changes, but it's too late. Do you think it's too late and why or why not? I mean, his whole agenda on Instagram is pushing phone free schools and making changes. So I don't know how much he really feels that now, but that's his whole agenda. He's really campaigning that it's not too late. Yes. No, he, of course he believes it's not too late. He's saying when he talks with others, that's a common statement that
01:10:25
Speaker
In the public sphere, the public discourse, people say, hey, I agree, technology, kids are rude, but hey, it's just too late, Jonathan, it's just too late. And he's like, no, is that how we responded to the tobacco industry? yeah No, ah he does not feel that way. I'm just asking you guys, do you all feel like you you fall into that belief? Like, gosh, there is just no hope. Like, there we're never gonna do phone-free schools. Like, this is not gonna get better. It's only gonna get worse.
01:10:54
Speaker
It definitely feels like an uphill battle, given how rapid things have changed over the past 10 to 20 years with phones. It only feels like it's further going into that danger zone, which is AI on the horizon and all this buzz around artificial intelligence and all that stuff. but I don't know. I think it still does start in the home, right? So I do believe in the compound effect of the collective action where, man, if everybody sees the bad repercussions of this, then we, the people that are reading this book, the people that believe in it can rally around and try and change course. But I think it's, I don't think it's going to be an immediate thing unless, unless it becomes governmental.
01:11:43
Speaker
I definitely don't think it's late and I think really that thinking that way, it's almost like a victim mindset or like really just a lazy mindset of I don't want to change. That's good. I think that's a very ah wise statement.
01:11:59
Speaker
You know, really this book is talking a lot about Generation Z and really kind of the next generation's after, but really it's talking about all of us. And so everyone would have to change to to write the course as we discussed how really parents, adults are having this the same issue with phones and such. It's just that people don't want to change. But I think you can look at the six of us.
01:12:22
Speaker
When we do change you know big course or we do a 180 with something like that, I feel like the lessons learned from it can be even greater than sometimes having never gone down that road. Someone who was using or addicted to social media and then reverted from it and now no longer is. ah Those stories I think are you know, more telling and that person might develop more character to say than the person who never started using it in the first place. And so it's to say willingness to change one's behavior really does help us to grow on so many other in different ways, especially when when the mindset is focused at personal betterment.
01:12:59
Speaker
And yeah, I really think it's kind of a domino effect. If you start to develop discipline more in one area of your life, you're going to develop discipline in other areas of your life. And so it's not just that doing one change has small effects in your life, but rather it affects your whole life and it can affect your whole community too. Because as you're doing things, others are starting to see it too. And you know, Fles, you've shared some about your experience with kind of moving away from social media. I've moved away from social media.
01:13:26
Speaker
And it's no coincidence that you find groups of people that do this together in a friend group. You know, you'd see a whole group of friends that's not using it. It's because it has influence on others. I even think in a practical sense, reading, that's not social media, but I tell people I've read more since I joined the book club.
01:13:46
Speaker
than I had probably the last decade combined, the snow exaggeration. So you you join a community that values certain things, you start adopting those habits and reading is now a habit in my life, in my routine. It's good. Thanks to you guys.
01:14:05
Speaker
What I'm a little afraid of in terms of whether it's too late or not is that this is going to end up being like, um, yet another thing that kind of splits communities and cultures by privilege almost. So you'll see maybe certain schools opt with maybe more knowledge of these studies, more resources to do phone free schools while a school that needs the most probably, maybe with kids that aren't as privileged or as knowledgeable about the detriments of technology, don't, or they're not forced to do it. So I can see where a sweeping government change, like phone free schools, no matter what the school is, like public schools, period.
01:14:53
Speaker
That would be super helpful to to level the playing field in that way. Otherwise, I'm afraid it'll be changes only in certain communities that already have a leg up in a lot of ways.
Socioeconomic Status and Technology Use
01:15:05
Speaker
On that topic real quick, does anyone remember what the author wrote about as it pertains to different socioeconomic communities and how social media and technology has affected? so Basically, the concern when iPhones and smartphones rolled out was would poorer, lower socioeconomic communities be able to afford it? And it would but it only widen the gap between the haves and the have-nots. Well, it turns out 15, 20 years later, the answer is no, it did not. People from every socioeconomic group have smartphones. Where it is disproportionately affecting not as well-off communities is the lack of education and resources around the effects of social media
01:15:55
Speaker
and groups like support groups to help the single moms who are just trying to like work in two, three jobs. Like, hey, just turn the TV on, give the kid a phone to distract him. He's got to just take care of himself all evening, you know? So it's not the financial resources of getting a smartphone that's widening the gap between the haves and have nots. Rather, it is the social media usage and the negative effects that come with that.
01:16:22
Speaker
that is more disproportionately affecting the the have-nots, you could say. And you think about the number of people that are easier targets for these big tech companies, and it's the people who are in those sort of situations. So it's just like a lot of other industries, like the food industry, they target folks to buy a lot of the stuff that's not healthy for you, and they make it the cheapest thing on the shelf.
01:16:46
Speaker
And that's what they push the hardest. And so yeah that's the stuff that takes you from a place where you're not doing so well to a place where you're doing even worse. And I'm afraid that's going to happen with the tech industry and social media and everything else. And less like as a culture, we all kind of turn towards this new paradigm of tech use for kids. So we've reached the end of another book, season five.
01:17:12
Speaker
So a way, I guess, to kind of recap the whole book, talk about it in kind of a concluding manner. I'm a very practical person. I want tangible things that I can do to make a difference. As you think about this entire book, what you've read, some of your takeaways.
01:17:30
Speaker
whether you're a parent or not, we all are part of some community. So what's one practical takeaway from this section and just the book as a whole that you plan to actually implement in your home, in your church, neighborhood, whatever community you're a part of? I think for me, the big thing is just awareness.
01:17:52
Speaker
Okay. What do you mean by that awareness? Letting other people know about this book, just starting the conversation about this book and all the things that it talks about. And from there, having that, hopefully having that group of friends that are on board where we can link up together and try to do this together. You know, I have quite a few friends that have kids around the same age as my kids. And so if we're all doing this together,
01:18:22
Speaker
that'll make their lives better. So just spreading the word, spreading awareness, I think is big for me. Thanks for sharing, Matt. Fles, what about you? I only read half the book.
01:18:35
Speaker
are Yeah, but you successfully deleted your Instagram, right? That's true. So yeah, I mean, having a goddaughter that just started middle school this year, just like a couple of weeks ago, I think again, the preventing like kids from using social media until they're older is.
01:18:54
Speaker
What I think is the most important thing from this, in my opinion, just from like a mental health standpoint, especially for young women. And even though you guys said earlier that it's probably the hardest thing to implement as far as kids getting around it, figuring out ways, still think that that's something that should be focused on heavily.
01:19:16
Speaker
Just because something's hard or there might not be good ways to prevent kids from doing it doesn't mean that we shouldn't try. The phones, no phones in school is good, obviously. Help with focus and everything that you guys already said.
01:19:31
Speaker
But ah yeah, I just worry. I worry about my 11-year-old daughter going to middle school and what could happen if she started a social media account. There's fear there and especially considering that I got sucked into it and took me forever to get away from it. You know, I don't want somebody that's that much younger than when I started Instagram to get sucked into it.
01:19:56
Speaker
and to have all the negative effects of it happen at a younger age. That's an emotional thing for me for sure. Picking that one as my number one from the book, but I think it's the one that can have the most positive impact if there's things that can be implemented.
01:20:13
Speaker
Yeah. I know I shared with you guys just a little bit about this Sunday. Garrett, I know we talked about it yesterday, but I don't know all the specifics, the youth community that I'm involved with, with my church. The night went really somber and South really quick because a 14 year old boy took his life. Like an hour before, in theory, he should have been at where we were at because he attends that weekly function. And so I don't know all of the details, but based on what some of his friends were saying, it was a mental health
01:20:52
Speaker
depression type of scenario that escalated. He seemed fine that day, earlier that day, posting Snapchats, doing stuff with his girlfriend and stuff like that. And then hours later, it's done. And it's really sad. And and I'm sure that if it's depression, mental illness, that Maybe, ah I don't want to speculate, but maybe that is because of some social media involvement or I think that that could play a part, right? And so just looking back on our conversations, I think that protecting the youth is is important and
01:21:35
Speaker
parents to do a really poor job. I know we all kind of shared of us growing up and struggles that we dealt with and we found ways around them. And I think how do we become more intentional parents around protection when it does come to the virtual world?
01:21:51
Speaker
And so i'm I'm just personally motivated to treat technology as as a communication tool with between the parent and the child and and keeping that really limited to rather than just literally giving the world to them within their fingertips, right? And so that's something that I really wanna focus on implementing is not caving, standing firm to our beliefs, not really worrying about what anybody else thinks because at the end of the day, I think we're gonna form better children if we stand behind this purpose.
01:22:30
Speaker
Yeah, Rob, I like that word that you use intentional because the reality is, is if we just kind of let life affect us, if we go with the flow of what the culture is doing, we're definitely going to lead to more and more issues. and so i think you know The call for me as a person myself is being more intentional about my actions, my decisions when it comes to any screen time related things, any he social media rate related things, but then also as ah as a parent, hopefully to you have one child now and hopefully the more in the future, but to be intentional about how I'm going about raising them and not letting culture make those decisions of what they consume, but rather playing an active role of saying,
01:23:13
Speaker
this is how we're going to do things and this is why and explaining that. And because I also think on the contrary side, you know, we've talked a little bit about kids do find ways around things, but, you know, kids are kids are smart and kids, they do look up to their parents. And so if you if you just say we don't do this, and that's one thing. But if you say, hey, this is something that we don't do because of X, Y and Z, that goes a lot further. Either to be the change you want to see in the world.
Pervasive Influence of Technology
01:23:49
Speaker
No, I really, I really honestly think like the world's way too full of people trying to yell at everybody else about how to act and how to live and what to do. So all we can really do is to talk to people about why we're doing the things we're doing and why we believe that that's the best way to live. And I think because this is a cultural issue now, because tech is such a intertwined part of our lives, we just have to do everything we can to control and be disciplined and intentional. Like you guys said, for ourselves and our households,
01:24:19
Speaker
and then try to share that in a way that's not speaking down to others about why this is kind of the best path forward for our kids and ourselves and everything else.
Upcoming Panel Interview on Parenting
01:24:30
Speaker
Thanks guys for sharing. Uh, really enjoyed this book. I'm very excited for our panel interview. That'll be fun to hear from a child and family licensed counselor and a pediatrician. And obviously as more of us are entering the parenting world, you know, stainless when we started the book club, did not have a child now does. And.
01:24:54
Speaker
Couple of us now we have kids that are in actual schools and this is only gonna be more become more and more personal i was even thinking rob is your sharing.
Mental Illness Awareness vs Cancer Awareness
01:25:02
Speaker
and I appreciate you sharing that story i was thinking of we we're talking about baseball at the beginning. You know during the playoffs they'll have this moment in between innings where everyone stands up fans players and.
01:25:16
Speaker
It's stand up to cancer and they write a person's name that they know personally that's been affected by cancer. My dad, my cousin, everyone's got one because cancer is so prevalent.
01:25:30
Speaker
And when you were sharing that, it just made me think that we're already there or on like a similar trajectory of stand up to mental illness or whatever Philly, but just like where this is going to be a more and bigger problem. If we just kind of let culture stand still, right? Like what's stainless was saying, if we just kind of let life happen, but and everyone will be able to fill in that blank of someone we know that's taking their own life. or so i We probably already have that person that can come to mind right now, right? And we're standing on several whales, whether it's schools, family, whatever our communities are in, that we don't need to be fishing for minnows. We can take some steps now. So I appreciate you guys sharing and getting into another great book.
Mixed Reviews on 'Anxious Generation'
01:26:21
Speaker
What did you guys think of the vibe of the book in general? I personally felt like there was a lot of data, like almost two data too much data. This is like my favorite kind of book to read, I think, is like data commentary, data commentary. Did you listen to it, Thomas?
01:26:38
Speaker
Yeah, but maybe it was because it felt more repetitive because I listened to it. And then we had the same conversations that were very similar each time we met, too. I don't know. I i guess I wish it would have had maybe more personal stories of people and what they were going through or something like that, rather than just like the hard data, because it was kind of depressing just listening to the hard things are going in a bad direction.
01:27:05
Speaker
I'm still a kid at heart. So I'm reading a book. I'm like, man, this chapter's long. And I turned the page. I'm like, sweet, a graph. I only have to read half the page on this. That's so funny. I didn't have the graph separately, but it's not the same. ah No, no, the PDF thing. Not at all. I can relate to that Garrett.
01:27:26
Speaker
Especially when it's dense. Yeah.
Special Episode Announcement
01:27:28
Speaker
All right. Well, that concludes our discussion of the anxious generation by Jonathan height in two weeks. We'll release a special episode where the guys sit down with a child and family licensed professional counselor, as well as a pediatrician to discuss these professionals experience firsthand, working with children and the challenges they're facing with technology.
01:27:49
Speaker
After that special episode, we'll return in October for season six. It will also kick off year two of the podcast. For season six, we're pivoting topics and we'll read a historical fiction book called Gates of Fire, an epic novel of the Battle of Thermopylae, which is the battle that the movie 300 was based off of. If you are a millennial,
01:28:13
Speaker
and were teenagers when that movie released like we were. Matt and Fles, you both recommended this book. What caused you to recommend it to us and what are you excited about reading
Recommendation for 'Gates of Fire'
01:28:25
Speaker
it? I think number one is just it's a nice deviation from the books that we've been reading, like personal development or books like that. And then I personally love the history of this, of the Spartans. And I just think that they're badass.
01:28:41
Speaker
And, uh, love of the movie 300. I think that as like a group of men that are brothers, I think there's going to be some cool tie-ins to that and how they train and fight for freedom and come together and lead each other. I think there's going to be some cool stories in there that we can all learn from. I think you said it well, Flaz.
'Gates of Fire' Praise
01:29:03
Speaker
camaraderie is a word that came to mind. I've actually read this book before, and it's very memorable. It's really good, well written, written by Steven Pressfield. I think I read it 10 years ago or so, and I still remember quite a bit of it, but what I remember most is the realism. The movie makes it seem, you know, it's it's Hollywood style, but this book really gets you into the gritty details and the gore,
01:29:32
Speaker
and the exhaustion of fighting a war. And yeah, it's just a very good book. All right. Thank you. Yes. We're excited to read this book. And like you said, Flez, it will be a good deviation from some of the topics we've read in the previous seasons.