Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
S6.E5 - Gates of Fire - Book 5
31 Plays9 days ago
Adam “Flez” leads our discussion of Book 5: “Polynikes” from Gates of Fire: An Epic Novel of The Battle of Thermopylae by Steven Pressfield.
- How do we as men relate to the burden of leadership and weigh this responsibility in our professional and personal lives (0:42 - 15:22)
- What does courage look like in everyday life for men today? What personal challenges have required courage from you, even in the face of fear? (15:23 - 21:06)
- What is the opposite of fear, and how do you overcome fear? (21:07 - 30:17)
- How do you balance the tension between love and duty in your own life? Do you feel the tension between personal desires and responsibilities in your relationships? (30:17 - 39:06)
Next week we’ll discuss Book 6: “Dienekes” (pages 243 - 314).
You can buy the book on Amazon by clicking here.
You can also borrow it at your local library. Don’t have a library card, or unsure where your local library is? Search on Google Maps, or find your local library by clicking here.
Follow us on Instagram @booksbrotherspodcast
Email us at [email protected]
Please subscribe and give us a review! We would really appreciate it.
See you next week! Until then - read, reflect, and connect.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Books Brothers Podcast
00:00:07
Speaker
Welcome to the Books Brothers podcast. I'm Adam, aka Flez, and I'll be leading today's episode. I'm here with Matt, Garrett, Adam.
Exploring Gates of Fire: Leadership and Sacrifice
00:00:17
Speaker
Today we're diving into Gates of Fire by Steven Pressfield, a powerful historical novel that brings the life of the legendary leadership, courage, and sacrifice that define both the Spartans and their Persian adversaries.
00:00:33
Speaker
It's a story about warriors facing overwhelming odds and the personal and collective strength that's required to endure such challenges.
King Xerxes' Guilt and Leadership Dilemmas
00:00:40
Speaker
Today we're focusing on book 5, Polynikes, a section that explores the aftermath of the battle from the Persian perspective. We see King Xerxes struggling with deep guilt over the desecration of King Leoninus' body while his advisors offer conflicting advice on how to move forward. This part of the book also shifts back to the Spartans, showing their preparations for battle and how they manage fear and inspire courage in their ranks. Book 5 is crucial because it delves into the internal struggles of leaders and warriors alike. Xerxes, a mighty king, tastes his emotional turmoil while Spartan leaders like Leonidas and Dynakis demonstrate what it means to lead with honor and resolve.
00:01:19
Speaker
That exploration of fear, duty, and leadership in this section offers a lot of lessons that are still relevant to us today. The book starts off with Xerxes being haunted by nightmares after the desecration of Leonidas' body. His advisors, Mardonius and Artemisia, offer conflicting advice, should Xerxes stay to lead or return home to safety. Artemisia's view is that leadership is proven through deeds, which parallels Greek values, while Mardonius believes Xerxes is too royal to continue fighting personally.
00:01:49
Speaker
Meanwhile, Xioni's reflects on Spartan customs before battle, focusing on family, love, and duty. Ariti, Dinahki's wife, reveals her internal conflict torn between love and duty and her past love for Dinahki's.
00:02:03
Speaker
And finally, the Spartans arrive at Thermopylae.
Spartans at Thermopylae: Themes of Courage and Fear
00:02:05
Speaker
They rebuild the wall and prepare for the Persians. Themes of fear and courage are explored, with Leonidas and Dynakis teaching the Spartans how to face fear. Dynakis' lessons on courage highlight the value of leadership and composure under pressure, especially before battle. Okay, so the first set of questions is going to be about leadership and responsibility.
00:02:26
Speaker
In this book, Xerxes is torn between the responsibilities of a king and his own guilt and fear, whereas Leonidas leads by example, participating in manual labor and motivating his men through actions rather than words. So my first question is how do we as men in our thirties relate to the burden of leadership and whether in professional life, relationships, or personal growth, how do we navigate the weight of responsibility?
Leadership Portrayals: Literature vs. Media
00:02:51
Speaker
I just wanted to start kind of with leading in on how you're describing Xerxes and stuff earlier and in this section. And, you know, i'm I'm sure we've all watched the movie 300. And I think that the movie 300 makes Xerxes out to be this supreme bad guy who's like soulless and such. um And I thought this is it was pretty interesting to hear him having remorse for what happened in the 90s. And, you know, in this section we see that he really has this view of the Spartans, that these Spartans are separate, they're unique, and that Leonidas is unique and deserved honor. The whole narrative of this book is him essentially interviewing Zionis to find out more information on how Spartans became Spartans. And so I thought thought it was pretty interesting to just the person of Xerxes, very kind of complex person, I think made, I'd imagine this, you know, who knows what's true of how Xerxes really was, but portrayal in this book, I think it seems a lot more
00:03:48
Speaker
probably would be more accurate compared to like the movie 300 where he's essentially the soulless person but at the same time it's like you see the immaturity in him and that it's almost like he's like idolizing these Spartans but he's like so kind of caught up in his own power in that too.
00:04:03
Speaker
But yeah, so back
Personal Leadership Failures and Perceptions
00:04:05
Speaker
to your question. So how you know how do we handle the burden of leadership? I think I was talking about this last week or a couple of weeks ago, about how I feel like over the last year, I've reflected on my leadership abilities when it came to my professional background, because I was in a leadership role professionally managing a clinic for five years before I'm doing what I'm doing now.
00:04:24
Speaker
And I think that I've seen past failures in that. And I think my perception of what I wanted or what I was aspiring to be, how it mismatched at times, like how I was actually portraying. And so personally, it kind of causes some turmoil of how I want to be perceived versus how I am really. and you know, I think about this too in my marriage and family. It's like, I want to be a good father. I want to be a good husband. But I know I often don't do the best of this, you know, this week in particular, then just like a really busy week for work-wise with me. I spent a lot of time and had a couple of days or I've had to drive a couple hours for stuff related to work. And ah yeah, I've just felt honestly, as though I've i've failed somewhat in
00:05:06
Speaker
being like the husband and father that I like want to be and so for me it gives me a lot of guilt and I think that shame would be like another emotion that I can relate to in it that just not doing what I want to be doing or feel like I should be doing.
00:05:20
Speaker
Yeah. I don't know, man. You you lead the reaction a lot. I see it in your marriage and being a dad all the time.
Shame and Guilt in Leadership Roles
00:05:27
Speaker
So I wouldn't be too hard on yourself. But yeah, shame is tricky. I feel like a shame is essentially thinking that you're a bad person. Guilt is like, you think you did something wrong. Shame is like you think you're inherently a bad person. You're definitely not a bad person. So thanks, man. Yeah.
00:05:44
Speaker
I don't know, but I think that we're always going to be our toughest critic though. No, for sure. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I, yeah, I mean, I feel shame a lot for sure. Yeah. That's something I've very intentionally been aware of and worked on personally, because it's easy to, it's the strongest emotion. Shame can make you really hit yourself if you let it. So.
00:06:07
Speaker
Just to kind of answer the question that I asked, I guess for me, I mean, I've failed in the past in leadership roles in my personal life, for sure, thinking of marriage. I think both people are leading in different ways. And I feel like I definitely did not do my part in that leadership role, but yeah, it's a lesson learned. And same with like some business ventures that were failures, I guess, quote failures. And then you're,
00:06:36
Speaker
I don't know, we're always learning. And it's not like, I guess the burden of leadership is like, I guess as a man feeling like you have to take on so much, I guess, I don't know. I feel like it's changing though, because it's not like, it used to be like the man is the only one that works, you know, and we're like, our wives stay at home. That's not how it is exactly now. It used to be kind of like, man, I'm the one making all the money. If I lose my job, like our entire family is screwed. It's not necessarily like that anymore, but it still is like that for some some guys. That's a huge burden, I think. I felt that in my marriage because I was making more money than my wife. And the burden of trying to start your own business and then you're not making and any money anymore is... Yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot to face. Yeah, I feel that. That's what I was and stealing. I feel both of those things being the primary breadwinner in the family.
00:07:33
Speaker
That's a lot of responsibility to provide for wife and kids and pay the bills and trying to be that person who people turn to for answers, for basic needs. I think professionally being in a leadership position for me is trying to be the person with answers when they come to me with questions. I need to know their correct answer and how to do something if someone asks me a question.
00:08:02
Speaker
And also just to voice your opinion. So I'm on a the leadership team with my company. So all of the managers and execs meet biweekly and talk about business things. It's super exciting. But just being able to voice your opinion is one, it's ah I think it's good that they allow that space. But as part of the leadership team, it's important for you to voice your opinion.
00:08:31
Speaker
even if people disagree with you. At least in my company, it's encouraged, express your thoughts. And so the more people do that, the more people see who you are, especially with my company, we're all remote, we're all in different parts of the country. So it's a little bit more difficult to get to know people for who they are. So you really have to be able to to talk. But at the same time, it has to be, you know, good things because you're on the leadership team and your opinion matters and it's helping to drive the success and vision and future of the business. Yeah, I think just being knowledgeable, being wise with what you're given, being a good steward for that is super important. But at the same time, Salem, I can relate to the
00:09:22
Speaker
the shame and the guilt because I want to be this really good person, this really good father and husband
Balancing Personal Standards with Leadership
00:09:29
Speaker
and leader. But sometimes I don't meet my own standards and I feel like a terrible person whenever I fall short or I get frustrated with kids and don't act the right way that I expect myself to around them, even when they're being super annoying and don't listen to you. I think back on it after the fact and like, man, I should not have been that short with them. Even though they weren't listening, like I still need to be a good leader, be a good father. And yeah, so I think a lot of stuff is why we do this book club to become better men in all aspects of life, to learn, to grow,
00:10:18
Speaker
We all fall short. We all fail, but as long as we're trying, I think that's part of leadership and we're trying to get better. We're trying to to do better. And I think that's a big part of leadership there. Garrett.
00:10:32
Speaker
Those are all good things. One thing that I think of is loneliness and authenticity in leadership.
Authenticity and Loneliness in Leadership
00:10:41
Speaker
It can be a lonely experience, and then it can be hard to have authentic feedback. I had underlined on page 197 where it's Xerxes. I think he pulls Ziones aside by themselves and he says,
00:10:58
Speaker
how tiresome it becomes when people just like tell you what you want to hear. He's like, do my wives actually love me? Do these people actually, are they actually loyal to me? And he says, none speak the truth whole to a king, not his own brother, not even you, my friend and kinsmen, which is why he likes the onus so much. Cause the onus was like, Hey Xerxes, you suck. You know, he's like, finally someone who tells me how he really feels.
00:11:28
Speaker
And I agree with what you said at the beginning, Stalyn. The more I read this book, I realize it is a fictional interpretation of nonfiction events. So is 300. And the more I read this, the more I dislike 300.
00:11:43
Speaker
great yeah Especially as we're about to get to the battle, I'm reading it and I'm like, this makes so much more sense. How physically exhausted, how physically tore up they are. And in the movie, they like throw their spears a few times and they're like, woohoo. Yeah.
Spartans' Fear Management and Leonidas' Leadership
00:12:03
Speaker
but Always breaking rank. And just, and just how all the other, all all the other Greeks kind of play a part, bigger part. yeah yeah not sp right yeah Completely agree. And yeah, I think, yeah, Xerxes and Leonidas is a great dichotomy of experience yeah because it appears that a Leonidas does, you know,
00:12:28
Speaker
People can be real with him. And later on, when those three guys tried to desert the battlefield, he lets Dyna keys like handle the whole situation. and and And it says that he's just looking on.
00:12:45
Speaker
Or when that Egyptian comes and is like, y'all need to like peace out. And then all of a sudden he's like, who's is someone in spilly? Like he lets other people decide or like respond. And then he like comes in from the crowd and there's like, who's this old guy answering? Oh, oh, you're, you're, you're Leonina. Like you can tell it's like, I just got caught with my foot in my mouth kind of thing, but it's.
00:13:10
Speaker
is just completely two completely different experiences of how those kings are treated and viewed and experienced. And Lee Nyses is in his 60s in the book. He's definitely not in his 60s in the movie. Yeah. I knew we read The Art of War for a reason. All that stuff makes a lot more sense with reading this type of book. Like all the theory of war put into action. Yeah, no kidding.
00:13:39
Speaker
Yeah. Harder to relate to that book when you're thinking of like our current present day lives. than Yeah. you know Like office work in an office cubicle. right Me dropping off Halloween jokes to clinics all day. It's a battlefield, man. It's a battlefield. Why did the CPAP break up with the pillow? Cause it felt suffocated. Oh,
00:14:11
Speaker
I did like the part when Zionis is, he's talking to Xerxes and he looks him in the face, which is a big no-no, apparently, in that tent. You're not supposed to look at Xerxes, the God in human form. And he's like, I know you. I recognize you. And everyone in the tent is like, what? No, there's no way.
00:14:36
Speaker
You just saw him up above in the battle. Like, no, I recognize him in this exact tent. I was here. And we learned that they did a night raid and tried to assassinate Xerxes in his tent. ah So cool. So cool. And so awesome. And I don't know. I don't remember if the book will describe that part in more detail, but Alexandros, we learned, loses a hand in that night raid.
00:15:05
Speaker
He gets his arm cut off just as he was about to throw a spear at Xerxes. Yeah, it's it's book seven, I think. Leonidas, it starts, it details the raid. Okay. Cannot wait to read it. I ain't gone there yet. yeah I haven't either. All right, I'll move to the next set of questions. Next set of questions about courage versus fear. So Dinah Cuse teaches that younger warriors, that courage is not the absence of fear, but the ability to overcome it.
00:15:31
Speaker
The Spartan approach to fear compared to the Persian army's sheer size emphasizes the mental battle over the physical one. What does courage look like in everyday life for men today and what personal challenges have required courage from you even in the face of fear? So I am a little bit ashamed of answering this question because last night I met with a friend that I hadn't seen in probably 25 years. We were really good friends as little kids and just been up with him again last night. But I learned he is in the Air Force. And so he was talking about some of his experience in the Air Force, being on tours, being overseas and actually fighting wars. And I'm just sitting there and like, man, my life is so vanilla.
00:16:24
Speaker
I do absolutely nothing that requires real courage. I from home. I, yeah, like what am I doing? There's nothing courageous about my life. I can, uh, I can Grand Canyon, uh, this is coming to a weekend. There we go. That's why I got to, that's why I got to intentionally do uncomfortable things, right? Yeah. That's right. In all seriousness, I do think being strong in your faith,
00:16:55
Speaker
and being bold in your faith takes a lot of courage, especially today where if you were to talk about Christianity or your faith to non-believers, it's mostly pretty frowned upon to say, like, this is what I believe.
Modern Courage: Personal Challenges and Cultural Portrayals
00:17:13
Speaker
So just to to stand up for what you believe in with truthful, wise, and reasonable arguments takes a lot of courage.
00:17:23
Speaker
I think a lot of the things that I would say culturally are perceived as courageous now are tend to be more like long game kind of things. You know, if someone's been a ah good parent, you know, and that's not something that just happens on one occasion that happens over a long period of time, if they've been a, you know, faithful husband, faithful spouse.
00:17:44
Speaker
I think those kind of things are maybe some of the main things I think of that we maybe view as more courageous in our society now. You obviously mentioned the example of your friend who's in the Air Force and obviously it's extremely courageous and there's momentary things that are courageous, but I think that, yeah, I mean, I, as you asked that, i I kind of was struggling to think of like, yeah, what do people view as courageous? And I think a lot of it is more long-term character traits that we see as being more courageous in our current society.
00:18:14
Speaker
I don't know, I think it takes courage for me personally to get up and out my door. I don't have anybody telling me to like be anywhere at a certain time every day. you know I think it takes courage for me to force myself to get out the door, to get to like a clinic, to sell something. I think that takes courage for me to do that because it's unnatural. I'm not like a natural extrovert. And it's not easy for a lot of people. A lot lot of people need like that nine to five structure. So I just think that that's like an example of courage, but obviously not comparable to going into a battle.
00:18:51
Speaker
or being in the Air Force. But I think that I've had some courageous events in my past, like gunshots going off right by me in the city and then continuing to do my job and not like letting it impact what I'm doing out there and stuff like that. That's courageous. Borderline's stupid, honestly.
00:19:12
Speaker
I can't decide if it was courageous or just blatantly dumb.
00:19:17
Speaker
There could be a fine line there. But yeah, I really like your answer though, Matt. Just be courageous about voicing your your faith. I think that's very challenging to do. That's a great answer.
00:19:31
Speaker
The only thing I would add to that is it wouldn't, I don't think it's being courageous just with people who don't share the same building blocks of faith. I think it's it's speaking up for things within your own community of faith. So to not like dance around it, but to be courageous, some examples of that where There's not necessarily clear alignment in the Christian community is the topic of how to how to handle infertility.
00:20:03
Speaker
I mean, all all you know all the topics that are now hot topics, whether it's abortion or women's rights or LGBTQ spectrum of how does that intersect with the Bibles, teachings and and things like that. I mean, even within the church itself, your own denomination, your own local church, there's a dichotomy or a diversity of views.
00:20:27
Speaker
And you know i think of you know jesus was the example where the religious people didn't like him in the non religious people didn't like him. And a person that i really look up to still is look right. And for a while people within the christian sphere didn't like him and spoke really poorly of them and.
00:20:49
Speaker
he He wrote in his autobiography that he published five or six years ago. He's like, people within the church and without and outside the church both didn't like what I was doing. That was very similar to Jesus. So I figured I was doing something right.
00:21:02
Speaker
but ah That's cool. So then to piggyback off of that question, what do you guys think is the opposite of fear and how do you overcome fear?
00:21:14
Speaker
Perhaps to help with the question or to elaborate on it, like from the context of the book, I really enjoyed this part by Dyna Keys, where he's like the opposite of fear and Spartan culture is you have counterpoises to it. So you have consequences to being fearful. So in Spartan culture and ah collectivist cultures where you're part of a unit, not an individual is worse to be dishonorable than it is to die.
00:21:44
Speaker
and creating that culture so you're so afraid of dishonor that you don't fear death but then he raises the point he's like is but is that courage is not acting out of fear of dishonor still in essence act acting out of fear so you're replacing one type of fear with another And it was just a really fascinating thing, right? um I was talking to a coworker just last week about how, going back to leadership and interpersonal communication and dynamics, working with teams.
00:22:19
Speaker
the The primary driver of conflict in a work setting starts within yourself because you're primarily motivated out of fear. So maybe you're upset with something with a teammate or a boss and you don't address it because you're afraid of the repercussions of it. of What if it doesn't go well? You know what I mean? Like you could you could like splice this and dice this in any which way. And I just really enjoyed this part of the book where it's like, how yeah, how do you elevate beyond just fear in general, not trading one fear for another to.
00:22:59
Speaker
to just get a different behavioral outcome, but inside you, how do you rise above fear itself? So that's kind of the background of your question, I think in the context of the book, but I don't have an answer to your question. for so No, that's good. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know if I have an answer to your question and the book didn't actually give a clear answer either.
00:23:26
Speaker
Danike said he will tell us later. He talked about how courage looks different for men and women in Spartan culture, too. Like women have more courage because they are wives, mothers to these boys, these men, these warriors, and just watching them march off to war, not knowing if they're ever going to come back again. So they're just raising them, raising these warriors to go die.
00:23:57
Speaker
essentially. And they stand there watching, and these Spartan women are not crying at all as they march off to war. And so that takes a lot of courage. Like your natural instinct as a mother is to love and protect your kids, right? And you're just watching them walk off to probably die. And that takes a lot of courage. I love that part of the book and how he talks about women in this book, or the Spartan women. And it's like,
00:24:27
Speaker
The men's courage isn't really that courageous because we're kind of born to fight. You know, they're born to be warriors. They're born to fight. So when they go off to war, they're just doing what they were born to do. Whereas the women are born to nurture and to love. So when their son or husband goes off to war, they have to do the opposite of what they were born to do. You know, that's, that's, that's the, that's where Dyna Keys is like,
00:24:53
Speaker
who's the most courageous person, my wife, basically. That's what he says. know And he's they're like getting ready for battle. And he says the most courageous person he knows is his wife. That that was really cool. Yeah. But maybe maybe hope would be good the opposite of fear.
00:25:12
Speaker
And he kind of mentions that Paul and Nike's is a really good example of the Spartan warrior for one, but he's not afraid to die whatsoever. And he's one of the best warriors, one of the best athletes Sparta has ever seen. And he's, he does not show fear, but his hope is for glory in battle. And he kind of puts too much emphasis on that. So that can also be a bad thing.
00:25:42
Speaker
helping for too much glory, I guess, personally, I guess is what I got out of that part. But you could have hope for other things too, as Christians hope for the future with Christ in the perfect world. If you have strong enough hope, you can overcome fear. But when you put that hope in, you can it could be good or bad. You could be seen as crazy if your hope isn't the wrong thing.
00:26:12
Speaker
or it doesn't align with other people's beliefs. Dan, I think it's as I'm thinking about this, I think it's worth clarifying.
Fear in Life and Decision-Making
00:26:21
Speaker
I don't think the goal is to eradicate fear. I'm thinking of that rock climber who. Alex Honnold. Yeah, his ah his amygdala does not function properly, so he does not feel fear physiological issue that he has.
00:26:39
Speaker
Yes. Or he's just like, Oh, I'm just going to climb this mountain. It is what it is, you know, without any ropes. So part of our body working properly is to trigger fear.
00:26:51
Speaker
So I think it's like a clarify, you know, the more I think about it, perhaps Dyna keys was trying to eradicate fear, but I think the question is how can you eradicate the negative response to fear, which is fleeing the battlefield or running away or not speaking up or whatever it is. And, and, um, yeah, Matt, I think what you said is, is pretty spot on.
00:27:19
Speaker
This is a funny, uh, the, the movie, uh, it's not called live, die, repeat, but that's always what I think it's called with Tom Cruise and Emily blunt. And I know it's like a funny edge of tomorrow. Yeah. It's a funny movie to quote in this situation. I guess it's not because they're fighting and most likely going to die, almost certainly going to die.
00:27:41
Speaker
And the commander at the beginning says, uh, spoiler alert. Well, he just says, um, where there is no fear, there is no opportunity for courage.
00:27:54
Speaker
And I thought that was really cool. That always stuck with me since I watched that. So I think the the question is how do you, when you're confronted with fear, respond the positive way. And yeah, I think that goes to having your identity or your confidence, your faith in something that is sure and steadfast, right? So.
00:28:16
Speaker
if If Jesus is the example, he was plenty fearful, but made choices based out of the identity of of who he was his God's son to do what he was called to do despite that fear. So yeah, I just felt like clarifying that of like, you know, it's a good thing to feel fear.
00:28:38
Speaker
But ah the goal of not cratering and caving into your fears, but facing them and overcoming them when they need to be overcome with courage.
00:28:51
Speaker
One just kind of quick thing that I want to note just on just the general topic of fear. I mean, fear is not really a word that we use a lot, societally, culturally, I think. But I think we use another word a lot that means that we're kind of using it for the same thing. And that word is anxious or anxiety. I feel like I've even tried to. This has been something i've I feel like I've been the past couple of years. I've tried to change my vernacular when I feel anxious. And I've tried to acknowledge the times where I'm actually just fearing something.
00:29:21
Speaker
And I think for me, it's been helpful because I think fear feels like something that you can overcome, whereas anxiousness feels like something that happens to you. And so I feel like acknowledging the difference there. And and it's a very oversimplified axiom, but the axiom of fear is false evidence about reality. I think it's so simple, but yet wise when it comes to the topic where it's like, I think a lot of times for me, when I'm having a lot of fear, it's about things that I think might happen.
00:29:51
Speaker
There's real things that are scary when they're happening, but I think it's how and how we perceive them. You know, I think of like someone has a, like somebody loves me, you know, or maybe yourself has a really bad, like awful, like maybe like even a cancer diagnosis. It's like, yes, you can be fearful, but that doesn't mean that you don't have to be fully wrapped up in that. um And that fear can take different forms. It's good.
00:30:17
Speaker
All right, the next set of questions are about love and duty. So I read a story of love for Dinah Keys versus her duty to her first husband touches on the tension between personal desires and larger responsibilities. Her internal conflict mirrors the greater battle the Spartans face, the struggle between duty to the state and personal emotions.
Balancing Love and Duty in Relationships
00:30:36
Speaker
How do you balance love and duty in her own life? Do you feel the tension between personal desires and responsibilities in your relationships?
00:30:46
Speaker
Well, before answering that question, I think this section of the book confirms my theory that Diana Keys lied about having a kid. Yes. Yeah, it's it's not a theory or spot on. Yeah.
00:31:05
Speaker
They, it was addressed spot on when she's like, the gods are so cruel. Like she had not considered the fact that if she did that and he admitted that he'd get chosen for the 300. So yeah, this spot on. So it was a lie.
00:31:21
Speaker
So I'll share something pretty pretty vulnerable, I guess. I think some some of you may know, but the example that I can think of between love and duty is marriage and how the feeling of love can be is you know fleeting, right? Like it's an emotional state.
00:31:42
Speaker
But love as a verb is a choice, an active duty, I guess you could say. And there were a couple moments, there was like one very obvious moment where I almost like literally like blew up the, our relationship like blew up in our face before we even got engaged. But I basically got cold feet and communicated that.
00:32:08
Speaker
But then I also got like cold feet while we were engaged. And I remember my dad talking to me when and things kind of blew up in my face and he was like, teach me in that moment. And he, he goes, he was talking about the emotional part of it and the commitment. And I'll never forget. He's like, if, if you were going to like go back and pursue her and like apologize for what you've done, you can't do this again.
00:32:39
Speaker
So if you go and try to make things right, you got to like make it up in your mind now, even though you're not married, even though you haven't proposed that you're going to commit yourself to her. Cause it's like too hurtful to do that to her. I think at once, but especially a second time, it's just not going to happen. And.
00:33:00
Speaker
Yeah, there were moments, ah thankfully she forgave me and we got engaged and now we've been married 10 years. And there were times even in the engagement where I'd get like very afraid where I was like, Oh my gosh, like is, am I making the right decision?
00:33:20
Speaker
Am I rushing this? And I remember that conversation with my dad and I was like going into the wedding day. It was like a lot of different experience for me than probably.
00:33:31
Speaker
You guys experienced on your wedding day, maybe not, but probably most people where it's just, it was a great day. Wedding was great, but leading up to it, I, there was some fear and it was like, no, like I, I made this promise when I asked her to marry me and I, I committed myself. And then when we got married, we had a a rough.
00:33:51
Speaker
uh, first year and rough several years here and there. And it's like, no, there is a, there is a duty. I, there are a lot of times where I would feel like leaving or backing out or whatever, but I'm not going to let my, my emotions are not going to drive my decision. Like this is a duty that I have. And, you know, Lord willing will be married another 10 years and beyond that.
00:34:16
Speaker
But it's like, okay, we've made it 10 years. Like that's, that's something there's some evidence of, of actually walking the walk, not talking to talk about duty and stuff like that. And perhaps if people viewed it like that more, again, I'm not, I'm not trying to toot my own horn or anything. I've clearly made a lot of mistakes and stuff, but viewing marriage as a duty, perhaps there'd be less divorce and broken relationships.
00:34:43
Speaker
Yeah, I think duty is is not really a word that we talk about a lot these days. I think it feels like a dirty word and I guess some could say argue it is a dirty word. That's exactly what I was thinking this whole time.
00:35:00
Speaker
yeah oh do you like that yeah I'm not even joking. all i we are We are rebuking and our children for saying at dinner and all the time, you're a duty head. And now and then you talk to them about their duty, like what your duty is. my yeah But yeah, I think individualism is so big right now, like culturally speaking, that thought that we would have duties for people I think can feel essentially like negative to our very self. It's oppressive.
00:35:34
Speaker
Yeah, that's good. Yeah, that that to have a duty is oppressive. And I think that what I find over and over again in my life is that Matt is on one tonight. I think what I find over and over again in my life is that where my to my actions are associated with my duties.
00:35:59
Speaker
Tim, my actions are associated with my duties and I think that in the way that I act, like that's where my emotions then follow. you know um Marriage is a great obviously a great example for this. So if I serve my wife and I do things like give her a foot massage or if I spend time sitting down talking with her for a while, even though those are things I and know I should want to do, there are certain times where those are just challenging and those are more of duties. But then when you actually do those things, then the affection, the love follows.
00:36:32
Speaker
and Again, I think it has to do with when we get kind of outside of that individual mindset that we can often be in. And I think too, it's like we have we can have competing duties that compete for this too. And I don't know if Adam, that was what you were kind of thinking when you initially asked this, where you know my duty to to work and to be a working person can interfere with my my marriage at times. but my duty to work helps my marriage also because it helps us our for life. It's been time to get together to sit down and record this podcast. It's something that I like to do, I want to do, but you know and in ways I view it as a duty in which sometimes it causes increased stress for Ruth.
00:37:13
Speaker
Um, but yet she wants me to do it because she knows that it's good, you know? And so I think that, you know, you really got to link those responsibilities with the things that you love, the things that you care for. And so if you're trying to take on tasks and actions associated with the ones you love or the things that you love, then our sense of duty then becomes more worthwhile. Good stuff. My perspective on this is a little different now because I'm dating, but this girl that I'm currently dating, we we currently do have these intense feelings of love right now. And so it's definitely, it's a hard balance right now because we need to work, but we want to spend all this time together, kind of live far apart, but we like have those intense feelings of love. So we want to spend a lot of time together. So it's like, do we sacrifice
00:38:04
Speaker
a little bit of sleep, maybe a little bit of work performance so that we can spend more time together. That's definitely something that we're going to have to work on. But yeah, no, I agree a lot wholeheartedly with you both about love being a choice. Being in love and love are totally different. and In love is like the emotional like, man, this is new. This is like we have these intense, hard feelings like we just want to Kiss and you know, like, I don't know, but that's not always there. Whereas like love is this constant choice where every day you wake up and you choose to love that person. So regardless of if you hate them that day. but Yeah. yeah
00:38:45
Speaker
So to recap today's discussion, we talked about leadership encourage not being about being fearless, but about overcoming fear and taking responsibility. Love and duty often conflict, but both play critical roles in shaping character and life decisions. We encourage you listeners to reflect on your own experiences with these things.
00:39:34
Speaker
If you want to connect with us, you can reach us by