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The New Language of Loss: Tech, Choice, and Redesigning the Way We Die
35 Plays2 days ago
What if the way we talk about death is the reason so many people feel lost when it finally happens?
In this episode of The Glam Reaper Podcast, Jennifer sits down with Symon, a thanatologist working at the intersection of end of life care and technology, to unpack why death education is outdated, why the funeral industry feels confusing to so many families, and how better knowledge can restore choice and peace during some of life’s hardest moments.
Simon shares their deeply personal journey into hospice work and research, explains what thanatology and death technology really mean, and explores how tools like AI could help people understand their options before grief and urgency take over. Together, Jennifer and Simon challenge common myths about funerals, pricing, and planning, and talk honestly about why pre-planning, cultural awareness, and open conversations can change everything.
Tune in for a real, eye opening conversation that will leave you thinking differently about choice, legacy, and how we prepare for the end of life.
Key Topics:
-Choosing to talk about death before crisis
-Finding meaning and comfort in end of life planning
-Honoring personal values over fear and pressure
-Expanding choice through education and awareness
-Building a more humane future for death care
Quotes from the episode:
“My goal is to make death education accessible, modern, and available before people are in crisis.”
-Symon Braun Freck
“Not everyone wants the same ending, and that’s something we need to respect..”
-Jennifer Muldowney
Timestamp:
[00:00] Podcast Intro
[00:18] Simon discussed their work at the intersection of thanatology and technology, and how research and AI can expand access to end of life care information so people can make informed choices with clarity and confidence.
[09:28] Simon reflected on how early, personal experiences with death shaped their path into hospice work and research, and why those experiences now guide their commitment to ethical, culturally aware end of life tools.
[17:07] Simon explored why the funeral industry often feels exploitative, pointing to a lack of preparation and education, and emphasized how early conversations can shift decisions away from fear and toward personal values.
[22:40] Simon addressed how urgency, limited options, and missing knowledge during grief restrict meaningful choice, reinforcing the need for better education, advocacy, and more flexible end of life pathways.
[26:45] Outro
Connect with Symon Braun Freck:
Email: symonbraunfreck@gmail.com
LinkedIn-https://www.linkedin.com/in/symon-braun-freck-833b94197/
Website - symonbraunfreck.com
Connect with Jennifer/The Glam Reaper on socials at:
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TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@therealglamreaper
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@TheGlamReaperMuldowney
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennifermuldowney/
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Email us - glamreaperpodcast@gmail.com
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Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
ultimate goal would be to go into academia to create a deaf education that's comprehensive and accessible to everyone.
Introduction to Thanatology and Technology
00:00:18
Speaker
Hi everybody and welcome to another episode of the Glam Reaper podcast. I'm your host Jennifer Muldowney aka the Glam Reaper and on today's episode I have the gorgeous Simon who is a thanatologist but quite specifically in tech.
00:00:32
Speaker
So we're going to get into some some little some little juicy techy bits today. Simon welcome. Thank you so much I'm so excited to be here. Welcome, welcome. So tell us a little bit about you. um So the intro I gave was obviously a bit sort of secretive. We're trying to keep people on their toes. And so tell us a little bit. Actually, if you wouldn't mind explaining canatology, because not everybody know everybody that listens knows what that means as well. That'd be great.
00:00:55
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So my background is in end-of-life care. um I've actually worked as a hospice volunteer since I was in middle school, and that led me into the field of thanatology. I always knew I wanted to study death and dying, but I didn't know that there was a field specifically dedicated to that study. And so what thanatology is, is the study of death and dying. So it comes from the same root as Thanos, like death and the god of death. um And ology is the study of. So thanatology.
What is Thanatechnology?
00:01:27
Speaker
More recently, I've gotten into thanatechnology, which is combining thanatology with technology fields. um I'm particularly interested in how increased access to different end-of-life care resources online helps people make more autonomous end-of-life care decisions. And I think that can be done through a bunch of different technological resources or advancements. um But that's kind of what technology and samitechnology have to do with one another.
00:01:58
Speaker
And it's such a fascinating space. And anybody who's been listening to the podcast, especially, I think, probably the last season and part of this season, season five, will know that I have a big interest in tech and sort of digital, digital death and like how we're preserving it our legacies and how it can help with grief and how it can hinder it and all of the different aspects, because it really is. I mean, in some ways, it's one of the things I always say pre-planning and planning. funerals, the environment and the digital tech side of of funerals. If I could, you know, those are my three obsessions, but each of them are such a massive thing that you have to choose. You have to choose one. So I'm fascinated always to have conversations with people who are in very much in the in the space of of one of those three.
00:02:42
Speaker
So do you you're in research mode at the moment? Are you writing? Are you speaking like what's what's is there an end goal or what's the process? Yeah, all of the above. So currently, i run a death tech startup where we have been developing an app um that we are currently calling AI Death Doula, but it remains to be seen what it will be called when we actually release it.
00:03:06
Speaker
The goal of compiling a bunch of different end-of-life care resources into one location where it can then be queried against to give location-specific answers to people either who are dying themselves or to grieving loved ones or just curious people who have questions about death and dying.
00:03:25
Speaker
i am also hoping to continue my research in a PhD program, and I'm in the process of applying and interviewing right now, so who knows? But the ultimate goal would really be to introduce thanatechnology into the thanatology education. Right now, there are very few thanatology programs. There's a couple for undergrad. There's one specifically for a master's program, and they just introduced um a thanatechnology course to that master's program at Marion University. But other than that, there's really no death education that's covering this. And in the U.S. s specifically, there is no comprehensive death education that's generalized or given to the public. um So you really have to seek it out yourself. And so my ultimate goal would be to go into academia to create a death education that's comprehensive and accessible to everyone.
Technology's Role in Grief and Digital Legacy
00:04:20
Speaker
Wow, that's ah fascinating. I did not, I mean, i did not know that, first of all. And second of all, yeah, it's like you just, which is I feel like always the way when you don't know something and somebody points it out, the obvious. It's such an important part and it's such an important part going forward of death.
00:04:37
Speaker
is, you know, what happens to our social accounts? What happens to all our assets online? Like what happens, yeah you know, these AI, like our voice getting taken, our physical, you know, the, what were they called? holograms and all of these, all of these things that can replicate us ah long after we're gone and celebrities and historians. And um I just find the whole thing fascinating. But again, i didn't even kind of consider the education aspect that yes, you have all these courses, mortician schools, all of these um ways that educate people in this space, but they're not necessarily up to date anymore and staying with the times, which is hard enough as it's for for each of us. But yeah, it's and they really need to be a part of the education.
00:05:21
Speaker
like could Absolutely. Yeah. And the landscape of death care switches so frequently, um depending on what laws are passed at different states, different counties have such different regulations. And so having a comprehensive death care education important.
00:05:37
Speaker
difficult There's also so many different professions within death care. And I think often people think of a mortician, a funeral director, and they don't think about a death educator, a death doula, a death advocate, um a grief worker. There's so many different paths, um palliative care, hospice, etc., that you can go down. And I think that ah to have an education just to teach people that there are so many paths out there would be really helpful because some point, all of us are going to die. We're all going to know someone who dies and we're going to have to help Yeah. Yeah.
00:06:16
Speaker
currently are still death avoidant um as a culture and we don't introduce that into education at any point yeah and yeah Yeah, it's and it's and and that's, I guess, just for anybody listening who doesn't know, like what you just talked about, like panatology is is different to mortuary school. So mortuary school is for you training to become a licensed funeral director here in the US. Panatology is the broader study of death and end of life. Right. Right. Yeah, dermatology encompasses pre-death work like planning, ah death care itself, and then post-mortem care um and grief work as well. So it's really the whole spectrum of death and dying. Yeah, yeah.
00:07:02
Speaker
um because i I've been to a couple of thanatology, whether it's conferences or, and I know quite a few, and but it's not actually as as popular. It's not not as many people, yeah, not there's not as many thanatologists even in the funeral space that you would kind of think of. I mean, as as you pointed out, it's only one, funerals is only one facet of thanatology, but even it's fascinating to see how few thanatologists are in the funeral space.
00:07:28
Speaker
It's kind of crazy. It is interesting. I think it's due to just the very few programs that are out there. And I think if you don't know the word thanatology, you don't really know to look that up. If you look up death care, it typically leads you to funeral care or to palliative care and hospice um and the thanatology more.
00:07:50
Speaker
ah academic route isn't typically the first thing that pops up in a Google search. And I think that that could be one reason. and that It's also a little bit daunting to some people. Like when I tell them what I study and what I'm interested in, um it's kind of all encompassing and big on a topic that people aren't naturally comfortable with because we don't talk about death and dying as much as we should. And so I think that could be playing into it. But it is a really
00:08:20
Speaker
diverse and young field which I think shocks a lot of people but yeah I find it just really fun to be in that community oh that's that's that's good that's interesting um I love the word fun in that space that's good that's great Um, I'm wondering now, then this is just, don't laugh at me. This is just me bringing a bit of fun, popular culture into the, um, did you, I wonder, was there an increase in the study of thanatology or anything or the search when, uh, what was that movie, the Captain America or the, the Marvel movie? Wasn't he called Thanos or something? Thanos. Yeah.
00:08:56
Speaker
I have no idea, but I bet maybe there is, or people at least understood like what the word meant now. Yeah. Uh-huh. Because people will be like, oh, like Thanos when I say Thanatology, which before they didn't as much. so yeah maybe yeah Well, if nothing else, I guess when you put in that search term, you're going to get either some Marvel comic character or the study of of death and um an end of life.
Simon's Journey into Thanatology
00:09:23
Speaker
um And what can I ask, like, you know, what brought you on this journey? Like what...
00:09:28
Speaker
I had always been interested in end-of-life care my entire life. I was always a little bit more comfortable with deaths than other people. um I never really shied away. It was really common in my family to have open casket funerals to be interacting with people. our deceased loved ones. My family's really large and I was lucky enough to know my great grandparents, for example. And so we were very much part of the death of our family members.
00:09:57
Speaker
um And that just made me more comfortable with it. And then when I was 12, my mom's dad was dying and my parents let me not go to the first few weeks of school and stay with him while he was dying at home. And we had in-home hospice um And that was really my first like interaction with hospice. I had known what it was, but I had never met someone who worked in hospice or been part of that. And so and I stayed. i learned pretty much everything i could and absorb in that moment um and read every pamphlet they gave us.
00:10:35
Speaker
And I knew that I wanted to start hospice volunteering. And so I went back home to Utah. He died in Virginia, um went back home to Utah and contacted a hospice facility in our area um and became the youngest certified hospice volunteer there in the state, actually. And I did that for a long time. I kept hospice volunteering on and off for about 10 years all through college. And that sparked my journey, but it was really a lucky coincidence along the way of me meeting the right people.
00:11:09
Speaker
um So coming into high school, I met B.J. Miller, who is a palliative care physician um who had worked at SEM Hospice, and he was doing some research in the field. And I was going to live on the Navajo Nation at the time. And so I worked with him to develop a survey of hospice end of life care practices on the Navajo Nation, um bringing them back to him if to do whatever he needed with that research. And from there, I knew it was kind of what I wanted to study. So um I went to University of Rhode Island to study thanatology for a year, transferred to University of Southern California, where I developed the thanatology program, um and was able to pull together a curriculum there, um completed my master's there as well in visual anthropology and made all of my movies about end-of-life care and
00:12:02
Speaker
It kind of just started my whole journey into thanatology and research. And I'm really grateful because I've had so many great mentors along the way, um specifically in the doula and midwife community. They've been really open to helping, being part of any project I have, whether it be on one of my YouTube channels or testing out a new app that I developed. um And so that's really how we got here. And what I'm really interested now is how do...
00:12:32
Speaker
different applications, but also advancements in um alternative burial methods or um digital memorials? How does that help people understand all of their choices in end-of-life care and move us away from the traditional? I either have to be buried in a casket that is quite expensive in a vault in the ground, or I have to be cremated. Like, there are other options out there, and you can make your funeral feel you. And if those more conventional methods are you, that's awesome. But just knowing that you have choice and you have the ability to tell people what you want um while you're dying. Yeah.
00:13:12
Speaker
Yeah. So is that all of that is going to be encompassed in this app you're working
Challenges in End-of-Life Care Technology
00:13:17
Speaker
on? The startup, you saying, that or is it? I love to compile all of what I know into one app, but that is quite hard um for a lot of reasons. they're When you're uploading content, there's inherent biases in the information you're putting into an app. And I feel that it's really important to have a comprehensive, ah culturally aware, a very um diverse amount of resources put into this application. And I think we just aren't there yet. We just don't have enough. in And so i don't feel it's
00:13:55
Speaker
ready for everyone to like publicly consume. But my ultimate goal would be to be able to pull from so many different people and areas of knowledge that we can have an app that can answer niche questions like, can I bury my mom in my backyard? Or if I want my dad to be at home with us for three days, what's the proper way to care for his body in those days um and things like that. It really, want it to be able to answer anything. And I want it to be able to answer it location specifically um with culturally conscious answers dependent on religion, culture, region, et cetera. And so that's my ultimate goal. Where we stand right now is i have been applying to a bunch of funding, um but currently
00:14:43
Speaker
funding is up in the air in the US. So who knows what's happening, especially with the and NIH and health research, which is where this falls. And so that's why I sighed because it's really out of our hands at this point. But I had an amazing team of students um pulled together all the code for this and worked so hard on developing the app. And it is a fully functioning app that can be downloaded. i just think it hasn't gone through the enough ethical um considerations to give it to grieving or dying individuals. Yeah. Yeah. Which, and that is a major, major bump that you have to get over. Yeah. It's, it's something that for, for me, you know, I came from a business aspect, you know, most people know my story, but I came from business, a degree in business. And then I went on into event management and, and PR and communications and all that sort of stuff. So, like coming into this space from that.
00:15:46
Speaker
and You know, there's lots of things I wanted to do and ways I wanted to market things, but you can't. Marketing to a couple that are looking forward to getting married and have saved for years is a completely different thing to somebody who is grieving and somebody who's dying either or has passed. And it's It's just it's marketing in this space is so difficult because you never want to hurt. You never want the outcome to be adding more hurt.
00:16:17
Speaker
um But at the same time, you are a business. And so this is what like the the the the argument in the funeral space about whether it's an industry or not. And I'm like, if if it is like it is. And I think we just call a spade a spade. It is if you're selling products and services to people who are going to consume them, this can, you know, the supply and demand, the profit.
00:16:38
Speaker
It's like to me it is.
Navigating the Funeral Industry
00:16:40
Speaker
and And I but I understand the other rhetoric where it's like, but they don't want it to sound like it's a car manufacturers or it's an industry like and you're in, you know, in the smoke and there's all this. I'm like, well.
00:16:51
Speaker
That's human beings. it ain't it is an industry. i mean, the funeral industry is one of the biggest industries in the U.S. and it has a lot of money funneled through every single day. um i think that to me, the way around that is a lot of pre-planning. Like if we were able to have the difficult...
00:17:10
Speaker
conversations earlier which and to different people that means different things but if you are able to talk to the people around you about what you want at your funeral do you even want a funeral are you hoping to have a party instead like there's a million ways to go about your end-of-life care um which I think encompasses funeral care and grief care as well and I think that if those conversations were had before they needed to be had it will kind of turn the industry on its head because you couldn't then really upsell someone in the time of grief because they would know the plan already and if they want to buy whatever it is that's being sold already that's
00:17:54
Speaker
great and they will know that um but i think the reason that the funeral industry right now gets a lot of shade is because it's coming in at a time when people are most vulnerable and they have never thought about themselves as a consumer within the funeral industry um Which is unfortunate because every single person is going to be at some point.
00:18:19
Speaker
um And so it's ironic that the one thing we're going to have to do is the thing no one wants to talk about. Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, you might not always get married. you might not ah Everyone doesn't have a bar mitzvah. Everyone doesn't have a um a baby shower. Yeah, but if funeral is the one party, we're all... we're all invited to at some point, whether, you know, and, and that's even whether you have a funeral, it's, you know, it's, that's another thing. And, and there's like, we've, I've worked with a lot of people and we've had several guests, um, where, you know, talking about home burials and stuff like that. And,
00:18:55
Speaker
I'm very much an advocate for the funeral profession in and of itself. Like I think there's incredible funeral directors out there. Not everybody's out to sort of beg, steal or borrow or whatever it might be and from people. But even the people who are at the higher end of it and who are charging certain prices like... I also, you know, I do defend that, too, because I'm just like, you know, as a consumer, like if I'm faced with a couple of different handbags, I might not want the cheapest one. I might want the the more expensive one. And it's about what we value.
00:19:23
Speaker
You know, if I value a giant soiree for my funeral and I've pre-planned it then like that's what I want. um And so I don't think to me it's so important. And I feel as a writer who's kind of a you know and journalist as in I've written for publications, I've obviously written my books and stuff.
00:19:41
Speaker
I wish we'd stop constantly were referring to price in this space because it's it's not. It's about what you value. Like I personally do not value a casket. I personally do not value embalming for me. And it's not to say there are incredible embalmers out there. I've seen their work. There's beautiful caskets out there. And there's people who make them by hand. and You know, I went to Guyana two years ago and saw them like hand making all these caskets.
00:20:06
Speaker
Like, so it's I just personally don't want it for me. And that's where I think we need to. sort of get rid of the word pricing and stop tackling the funeral space on pricing and this price gouging and all that. Because unfortunately, like every other industry, especially in the current climate, there's going to be tariffs and there's going to be taxes that we have to pay. I mean, all the caskets coming from Canada, China and Mexico now.
00:20:30
Speaker
That's going to be a fun time. um So, yeah, it's just I wish we'd I wish especially the media. I wish the media would back the F off on pricing and like share heartwarming stories of funeral directors have done. you know, share some, some good and some bad news in the space as opposed to, you know, it just being focused on pricing.
00:20:51
Speaker
and Like, you know, there were, there were some lovely stories and there were some horrific stories that came out during COVID of things funeral directors did and didn't do for families and, you know, stuff. So. I totally agree. i I think that a lot of that also comes from there's this idea that a funeral director is a certain type of person. And ah based off of what I have heard and the stereotypes that I know of, it's typically...
00:21:19
Speaker
older white male and from the people I know that is not what makes up the funeral industry and so I wonder if that is kind of all grouped in together with the pricing because I agree with you it should be who whoever wants that expensive casket or no casket at all and have a green burial. That is completely their prerogative. um And to me, what's important is that they know they have choice. And so knowing that you can buy that casket or you can order an urn off of Amazon or at any funeral home, you can...
00:21:58
Speaker
ask if you can bring your own casket with you. And there's so many choices out there that I think people don't even know about. yeah and to me, the conversation might move away from price if people are aware of their options, and because then the the expensive thing is just one of the other choices they know they have rather than feeling pigeonholed into one space or another.
00:22:24
Speaker
Yeah. And I do. I think that's where it also comes down to. It's the one time in your life you haven't pre-planned. It's the one time in your life that you are up against. act You're up against a clock, sort of. I know you I know you can have time and stuff, but. there is a there is an immediacy, there's like a an urgency, sorry, not should I say an urgency, and to making some decisions and to um making decisions on pricing. and so and And also one of my pet peeves as well is that sometimes the funeral director sitting in front of you might not know all the options. And and it's not that they're doing a bad job, like, or they're trying to be like a, a you know,
00:23:07
Speaker
car salesmen it's just that they don't know that oh I could actually drive you your loved one to another state to have them aquamated or to have them composted or whatever like there's there's in some ways for for a space that has a lot of continuing education there's actually not a there's a lot of funeral directors out there who don't have the knowledge um which I think is something that needs to be changed massively too absolutely absolutely Yeah, I was actually just working with a woman um whose parent died unexpectedly, and I was working as like a death advocate on her
Exploring Alternative Burial Methods
00:23:43
Speaker
behalf. And um her parent had wanted to have their body donated to science, but due to the circumstances of their death, couldn't have that happen. um And she really didn't think that they'd want to be cremated or buried. But the funeral director in their area truthfully just did not know of any other options and was like, we don't have anything else here. um And so we worked with a different funeral home in
00:24:14
Speaker
Washington state to have the body transported across state lines um to be terramated, oh yeah which is human composting. and And it was a fascinating process from my outside perspective, on because typically when I'm working with people, they kind of know their choices already. Like if you know about terramation, there's only so many groups out there and you're going to already have that knowledge in a lot of cases. It was interesting to see someone fully have to explore a new alternative in the midst of their grief. And it was within days, because if you want your body donated to science, it needs to happen typically in the first like 48, 72 hours. When that isn't on the table anymore um is when the pre-planning really does matter because you can know like, oh, my mom or my dad really wants this to happen. But if the
00:25:11
Speaker
paperwork wasn't in place, if they died in an unexpected way, if you want an autopsy now. There's so many factors that play into this that having that plan for like what's our plan B is so important. um And so I just got to kind of watch that firsthand happen. um And it it was a different experience than most people I have been alongside with in the death process, because usually there's not that switch up right at the end of like, okay, we're not going down this route, we're going a different route, because most people do still pick a conventional burial or cremation. And so it was ah an interesting process to watch.
00:25:52
Speaker
Yeah, for sure.
Closing Remarks and Future Aspirations
00:25:54
Speaker
Well, I wish you the best of luck with this app. I hope it because we're all about getting the right information to the right people in an ethical way. So and we wish you the best of luck with the um with the app and and with all your future endeavors. I hope you keep researching. I hope you get the PhD and everything and you will stay in touch and you'll keep us in the loop, hopefully, of everything. And maybe we'll have you on in season, I don't know, 10. Yeah. And you can give us an update on that. So that'd be great. Thank you so much for joining us, Simon. This was wonderful. Thank you.
00:26:27
Speaker
Thank you so much. I really appreciate the space.