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Cemetery That Breathes Life Grief, Joy, and Greenwood’s Magic
40 Plays18 days ago
What If Talking About Death Could Actually Bring Us Closer to Life?
In this powerful and unexpectedly uplifting episode, we sit down with Gabrielle Gatto—death doula, cemetery educator, and creator of Grim Reaper Gossip—to talk about what it really means to face mortality with heart, humor, and humanity.
Gabrielle opens up about working at Greenwood Cemetery during the pandemic, how she turned personal purpose into public healing, and why she believes we need to bring death back into everyday conversation. We talk about grief in all its forms—from the loss of a loved one to pet loss and unspoken sorrow—and how judgment has no place in healing. You’ll hear stories of family, culture, legacy, and the small things—like a chocolate-scented lip balm or a keychain—that can make a lasting difference.
Whether you’re in the field of end-of-life care or simply human (yep, that’s all of us), this conversation is a warm invitation to reimagine death as a natural, even beautiful, part of life.
Tune in to hear why grief needs more compassion, why death work is a team effort, and how honest conversations—however awkward—can open the door to deeper love, purpose, and peace.
Key Topics:
-Working Through Grief at Greenwood
-Finding Purpose Through Death Care
-Normalizing Grief in All Its Forms
-Community Over Competition in Death Work
-Making Death Conversations Less Scary
Quotes from the episode:
“Death work is ancient work… we've been living as long as we've been dying.”
-Gabrielle Gatto
“I may not be a licensed therapist, but I can still sit with someone in grief and be a vessel for them to pour into.”
-Jennifer Muldowney
Timestamp:
[00:00] Podcast Intro
[00:57] Gabrielle opens up about what it was like to work at Greenwood Cemetery during the height of the pandemic, sharing the emotional moments that shaped her and deepened her connection to the work.
[09:28] She talks about how her love for family, culture, and meaningful connection led her to create Grim Reaper Gossip—a heartfelt, creative way to help people feel less afraid to talk about death.
[19:12] Gabrielle and Jennifer dive into the many faces of grief, including pet loss and overlooked pain, and why it’s so important to hold space for all of it without judgment—especially through honest, gentle conversations.
[27:16] Together, they reflect on how everyone in death care—whether a doula, director, nurse, or friend—has a unique role to play, and how working together with respect and heart can truly support the people we serve.
[37:14] Outro
Connect with Gabrielle Gatto:
LinkedIn- linkedin.com/in/gabrielle-gatto-391677113
Instagram - @gabriellegatteaux
Connect with Jennifer/The Glam Reaper on socials at:
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jennifermuldowney/
TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@therealglamreaper
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@TheGlamReaperMuldowney
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennifermuldowney/
Facebook Page - https://www.facebook.com/MuldowneyMemorials/
Email us - glamreaperpodcast@gmail.com
Shop Merch - https://the-glam-reaper.printify.me/products
Listen to The Glam Reaper Podcast on Apple Podcasts:
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
Death work is ancient work. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. We've been dying as long as we've been living. We've been living as long as we've been dying.
00:00:18
Speaker
Hello, hello everybody and welcome back to an episode of the Glam Reaper podcast. I'm your host, Jennifer Muldenny, aka the Glam Reaper. And on today's episode, we are with all the
Gabrielle's Role and Community Programs
00:00:30
Speaker
G's.
00:00:30
Speaker
We've got Gabrielle Gatto in the house. ah Gabrielle, welcome. Hello. Hi, thank you so much for having me. A dream actualized.
00:00:42
Speaker
and We are, listen, the two of us, where where we're like those little um Grim Reapers, Glam Reapers. We're like two beat two peas in a pod in the this realm. 100%. us a little bit, I mean, if you don't know who Gabrielle is, which I would be highly shocked if you're following the Glam Reaper, you should know the queen of Greenwood Cemetery. Oh, you're far too kind.
00:01:06
Speaker
But you are ah you are. So tell us a little bit about yourself and youre your day job, I guess. Sure. um My day job that's on the graveyard shift. Yes. You have to be open to making some some puns just to get through because... So yes, I'm Gabrielle. I work at the Greenwood Cemetery here in Brooklyn.
00:01:26
Speaker
And um I see so much every day. So much. um A lot of grief. But also a lot of joy. Greenwood is absolutely a living cemetery. It's 478 acres. I think it's a complete oasis. Just ask any bird that's migrating. yeah Hanging out at one of our glacial ponds.
00:01:48
Speaker
Lovely. Yeah, so I get to do the death education programs there with my incredible public programs team, Dr. Harry Weil, Dairy Emergent, Teva Bolloy, and everybody at Greenwood.
00:02:01
Speaker
ah They've really championed and supported me since I started on, and I know you know this, Jennifer, but I started on March 4th, 2020. Wild. In the events department.
00:02:14
Speaker
It was... It was a really wild time. And I was lifing then. Yeah, yeah. And I just learned really quickly on hyperspeed what it meant to work at a cemetery operationally and also emotionally, how to show up for people in your community.
00:02:30
Speaker
And out of that, Amy Cunningham, our good friend, I had already kind of established with the rest of the team before I had gotten in there like death cafes and tours of the crematory and lectures.
00:02:43
Speaker
And then, you know, when I came in, I said the community wants and needs more. And we just worked really hard to develop more. So I'm eternally ah grateful for that platform.
Impact of COVID on Cemetery Visits
00:02:56
Speaker
Yeah, it's I mean, it's one of the most beautiful cemeteries in in New York, you know, for sure. um and I've been to quite a lot. um And i I will say a part of it is, I think, because it's so local as well. i mean, New York is known as the concrete jungle and just a stone's throw away is this beautiful cemetery where... Stone man? Yeah, where you can just totally get lost. I remember...
00:03:21
Speaker
during COVID, speaking of COVID, and I'm still laughing at you starting your, like, career. Like, not your career, but, like, starting genetic. No, you're right. Literally. you done it yeah I was working film festivals before that. So, yeah. Listen, I did that too. I did the Jameson Film Festival back home in Ireland. Yes. Oh, okay.
00:03:42
Speaker
I don't think we ever knew that about each other. um So, but yeah, I remember during COVID, I ran and in cemeteries. I walked in cemeteries. i was living in the cemetery belt in Queens.
00:03:53
Speaker
I met friends for lunch in cemeteries. Like, in cemeteries, I think got a lot more, I got left locked into one. That was fun. Jerry? Jerry. But the gates closed at four o'clock and I was like, wait, what? Close?
00:04:08
Speaker
Hello? had to scale the gate. Oh my God. Oh, Jennifer. I know. My mother was like, what do you mean you're locked into a graveyard?
00:04:20
Speaker
Oh God. i really should write a book, Fiddle. Anyway, I would say cemeteries got actually a lot more traffic during COVID. Absolutely. i got the data. I got the numbers for you.
00:04:32
Speaker
ah It was pretty wild. On average, sometimes we would see like before COVID, like 2000 people on a weekend at Greenwood. And there was one weekend that it was well over 10,000.
00:04:44
Speaker
um And, you know, we were training a bunch of, we have an incredible volunteer program, trained a bunch of volunteers on the rules and regulations. So when a hearse was coming in, to come to the crematory. There weren't people playing with beach balls, but, you know, mindfully contemplating walking.
00:05:02
Speaker
um And all of a sudden, it was this new green space in New York City that... People were discovering lot of spillover from Prospect Park. So it was a really wild time. But yeah, I mean, we we found a way to make it accessible to any and all who came through the gates. We opened the gates for longer and at additional entrances. um But yeah, it was it was certainly a wild time.
00:05:28
Speaker
Like, honestly, it's it is one of those things that I do feel like, gosh, not to take a morbid turn on a podcast called The Glam Reaper. Yeah. moon I do think on my deathbed, hopefully like, what, 50 years from now, i I think it will be a wild thing to say,
00:05:45
Speaker
I lived in New York during COVID. I think of all the places in the world and obviously being from Ireland, I was highly connected with what was going on there. But, you know, i just think New York was hit in an extraordinary way during COVID and is still recouping from it, honestly.
00:06:02
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Oh, I saw processing. That's what therapists are for. Yeah. yeah for itchy And its it's like so many places closed down. and And that's another thing I think that a lot of people don't realize about New York. I certainly didn't when I came to visit from Ireland and on shopping trips and stuff. Like that was what we sort of did back and back in the day is that there are, there are so many mom and pop stores.
00:06:26
Speaker
and yeah Yeah. To like the villages in Ireland. Like it's not, yes, there are the Victoria's Secrets and the Macy's and the big corporations, but there are actually so many little Yeah. And so many of them got lost. Oh, made me so sad.
00:06:40
Speaker
and I actually remember I a photo
Gabrielle's Death Doula Services
00:06:42
Speaker
shoot in Greenwood. I'm just reminding of all these things now. I did a photo shoot. Pre-Glam Reaper. Yeah. injur jury I think it was towards the end of COVID.
00:06:51
Speaker
I think we were kind of allowed a little bit out a bit more. but Yeah. Yeah, I will say what's interesting is, you know, at the height of things too, i there's so much grief whizzing around and the tiny moments of people trying to find joy. And I just remember someone was like, I saw you on a dating profile. Like you were in your company van, like driving by and somebody had taken a picture in front of the Gothic arch. Yeah.
00:07:19
Speaker
Apparently, there there were a lot of um folks that went on dates there and and found solace there. And i just think that's that's really groovy and really cool. and And yeah, I found so much purpose in it. And I'm so happy. humbled that I'm in in the league um of like death care ah you know professionals such as yourself. I never thought I'd be a death doula.
00:07:45
Speaker
And it just I felt like I just was answering a call of how I was already feeling so purposeful of working in the crematory and working to take burial orders with funeral directors and things like that. And now, I mean, I have, um so G Gatto Parting and Healing is um my death doula business services, et cetera. It is a play on words. My father's business is called Gatto Plumbing and Heating.
00:08:13
Speaker
So this is G Gatto Parting and Healing. love that. Yeah. Yeah. That's so And you are so keenly orientated. I love that about you. You're so, you know, big Italian class.
00:08:27
Speaker
Well, I will say this, though, and I feel like this is a good reason ah of to as to why we get along so well. I just there's something about Irish and Italian, especially an Irish American, Italian American.
00:08:42
Speaker
um We love being loud with our families and our chosen families and our friends. And when we grieve, we grieve loudly. When we're joyful, we're so joyful. I don't know. I feel that you've had that experience, right?
00:08:57
Speaker
100% yeah no absolutely I think it's exactly why we get on and it's just it's also those cultures you know both of those are so important in the US in terms of like immigration I mean you know and yeah Irish typically married into Italian, Italian into Irish. So there's so many like of those families that then co-created.
00:09:20
Speaker
So we're very intertwined. i mean, yeah, it's it's very interesting that those two nationalities seemed to find each other over here. um And I do think it's the it's the New York love story. It's a New Orleans love story, too. And yeah we're talking about port cities and just the way our cultures have mixed and and evolved. I just think it's a gorgeous thing. So been ah Speaking of my uncle Vinny, who I talk about all the time, you know, this my uncle Vinny married my aunt Diane. So my cousins are obviously gorgeous Italian Irish Americans.
00:09:52
Speaker
And, um you know, he was like he just was the first person that showed me to go back to, you know, women tell stories in circles when we were talking about like, you know, thinking about your deathbed.
00:10:05
Speaker
I think about my deathbed and I like, like get tears of joy and sadness well up with me at the same
Cultural Connections and Family Influence
00:10:12
Speaker
time. Because um when I think about his life, the way he approached family, um who he was in his community and the FDNY, how he showed up for his brothers and sisters and siblings within that community. i just, when I close my eyes, I want to make sure kept him proud, kept like family at front and community at front and, you know, had some laughs along the way you know, i mean, what we do is crazy. I cannot believe.
00:10:44
Speaker
um i i almost had my cord phone to bring on here for um the Grim Reaper gossip bit of my life. I'm perpetually carried on this cord phone, which is actually, you know, in honor of my great grandmother who like loved to gossip on the cord phone.
00:11:00
Speaker
But yeah, I think about my deathbed all the time. And I'm like, I just want to make sure that the purpose, you know, was fulfilled as much as possible. I'm rambling now. What else do you want to go? Oh, you're fine. You're fine.
00:11:15
Speaker
I love that. Actually, I'm going to take a tiny little and slot out. I don't know when this recording will will air, but I want to just give a little shout out to my dear friend, Michelle, who just got promoted to deputy chief in the FDNY.
00:11:32
Speaker
i mean, absolutely delighted. I love seeing women making moves and no better woman to kick some ass. um so it's Amazing. current climate in America. I love to see it. And so I'm very proud of her. So just since you mentioned the NYM, which is the fire. That's incredible.
00:11:49
Speaker
Yeah. So, and but to actually you mentioned something there. And so we've got, you've got your, so you're working in Greenwood. I mean, you're a busy lady. You're working in Greenwood in the cemetery. You're a program director there.
00:12:00
Speaker
um And you mentioned at your death doula business. And you also mentioned the Grim Reaper gossip. So tell us a little bit about the Grim Reaper gossip, and then we're going to come back and kind of connect. Well, you know what's funny is I remember before I knew you, and i just was like, who is this fabulous lady with this, like, Glam Reaper podcast and this awesome, like, Goff Barbie logo?
00:12:23
Speaker
Yeah. No, I love the pink. It's so good. um Yeah, so Groom Reaper Gossip was kind of just born out of this need for, um you know, I had some death doula colleagues that were like, you know, and sometimes it's really difficult to start conversations with with parents and family. And I don't know, I'm an only child of parents that had me late in life. So if there are any only children out there listening, reach out.
00:12:52
Speaker
ah we have We have stuff to chat about. And, um
Joyful Approaches to Death Conversations
00:12:56
Speaker
you know, i was like, oh, I don't have that problem at all. I'm so Italian. Like every month it's either a wedding or a funeral in my family. Like I'm no stranger to this, you know.
00:13:05
Speaker
But a lot of people i was like, wow, okay. Like how can we... have these conversations more. And, um you know, there was just this thing brought up one day of, well, you know, your mom likes reality shows and gossip. Like, why don't you talk about a funeral, either fictional or from a reality show or something or from a show, you know, see what comes up when you're using that external agent to invite an actually real authentic conversation. And
00:13:36
Speaker
And I just realized how beautiful of a tool that was to really work for a lot of folks, right? Because like, think about it this way, Jennifer, just, oh my God, there was so many lilies there. That's so tacky. I've seen it done a thousand times. I want cabbage flowers at my funeral. Like...
00:13:53
Speaker
There's a little nugget of of something really important. So Grim Reaper Gossip is a little bit more outside of the traditional um death doula services I offer. It's ah like an event space where I can either, you know, curate like a death deck game night at your house ah to really get the conversation going, um you know, curate experiences around it. For example, I'm very emotional but my parents and I went to like the estate planner and lawyer together and it was ah i like walked in there Jennifer and I was like um yeah I'm a death doula and I work at a cemetery and um this is gonna go great and I was like oh oh my god you're giving me the house when you die like happy wood not okay it was hilarious actually I was like
00:14:42
Speaker
Because when it's you, it is different. Right. And um yeah, I said to my parents, I was like, whatever happens in that room with those lawyers and that paperwork, we're getting expensive sushi dinner after this because we're going to carry a really good memory around one step in the end of life care process.
00:15:01
Speaker
Right. So that's kind of what it's about. i will help you have that experience tailored to your family and your your loved ones, right? Hey, I really like going to Six Flags. You're going to have a really hard Saturday where, you know, you talk about management of possessions and and what you want your dream deathbed to look like if you're lucky enough to to go that way, to leave this um leave this earth that way. um And then let's attach something really meaningful alongside Yeah, I love that. We actually had, I'm not sure if for season one or season two. It was a total fangirl moment for me.
00:15:39
Speaker
we am i had the absolute honor of having and Dr. Catherine Mannix on the podcast. ah I mean, just one. ah Like that book just changed how I think about like death and dying myself. Yeah.
00:15:50
Speaker
think I think like similar to what the thought you had going into the lawyer's office. I think a lot of people look at us in this field and assume we're OK with everything. And it's very different when it comes to your own family. i mean, right I might sit down and do a preplan with my mum, which I have done. But like we cried, we laughed, we did all of the stuff.
00:16:10
Speaker
It doesn't mean I'm looking forward to her going anytime soon. Like I will be broken, like absolutely no question. um And so it's it's just interesting how people make these assumptions. But I remember um Dr. Catherine Mannix, she had said when I asked her about sort of approaching because ah we got that a lot is how do I approach this topic with my parents? They're elderly.
00:16:33
Speaker
yeah I don't want to think about them dying, but I you know, we need to get this sorted. And that's exactly the advice she gave, which was attach something good to it, whether it's afternoon tea or a treat in some way and just make it ah make it a better memory.
Personal vs Professional in Death Care
00:16:48
Speaker
And, you know, that works for some people and it doesn't work for some for others. It was some sort of a workshop in Greenwood. And this woman behind me, um i don't know if she knew me or i think she knew me or something. ever We got chatting anyway.
00:17:02
Speaker
And she asked me, she was kind of going through this issue. And as much as you can, maybe try and attach a treat to her. Attach a treat to the situation.
00:17:12
Speaker
It works for some people. It doesn't work for others. Like for me personally, but rightic key But it's a tool to try. and that's right so Put it back in the data box and pick something else up. Exactly. Like for me, I mean, one of my closest friends, he literally has said it to me like the last couple of times we've seen each other. He's like, and we haven't done yet. But because again, you have to wait until people are ready to receive it.
00:17:33
Speaker
But he's like, I really want to do a preplan with you. And he said, what I love, I mean, obviously we're best friends, but everybody said, what I love about you is you talk about this in just such a fun, normal way. Like it's normal.
00:17:44
Speaker
And so similar to the situation, well we didn't need to add a treat to it because it was just a fun, it was, we just opened a bottle of wine. we we went through the questions. It was not daunting. It wasn't, you know, we cried at this. sort of And we had,
00:17:59
Speaker
a laugh which I've told the story a gazillion times about how she wanted Rod Stewart's Maggie Mae played at her funeral where I wanted wind beneath my wings. Courtney! Courtney!
00:18:14
Speaker
z Well you know. So we had more laughs and tears when we were doing her funeral so we didn't need to attach a treat. The treat was just us spending time and enjoying it. m Yeah.
00:18:25
Speaker
So and I think you're probably similar in so far as you know We take a really dark topic and, you know, we we make it light. and It's going to happen to us all. it's There's no getting out of it alive. Even you, Elon Musk.
00:18:38
Speaker
Right? no um There absolutely isn't. and And that's the crux of it too, Jennifer, right? as How do we make this something that we can successfully return to talking about? yeah If you have that one initial having a bottle of wine with a friend,
00:18:55
Speaker
writing out some of the answers to the both big and small questions, all of a sudden it becomes more accessible to return to. All of a sudden you're like, I never thought I'd be listening to this glam reaper thing, but this lady has some really good tips and tricks when it comes to end of life care.
00:19:12
Speaker
yeah And then it's a beautiful snowball of people just interacting with death, dying, grief, and loss. And, in these bigger profound ways. And I also, i am so curious to hear from you if you've um kind of felt like this unearthing as well from so many folks just that they're recognizing grief, not only with human loss, but I know you do such amazing work with like pet celebrancy and pet loss and with pet parents. And, um you know, i work a lot with like, like disenfranchised grief. I've so I you know, I myself don't have siblings, but I know so many wonderful people in the space of talking about and writing about sibling loss, because that's something that when we survey people,
00:19:58
Speaker
at Greenwood and we say, how can we show up better for you? You know, what else would you want on your roster besides death cafe and grieving and weaving, which is so much fun. You have to come. We knit and crochet and collage. And it's so much fun.
00:20:11
Speaker
um You know, what else would you want on the roster? And, you know, someone suggested a panel on sibling loss. And I was like, I met some really amazing people at the grief-tastic book fair with ah Megan Reward and Jarvis. She put together a great panel about siblings.
00:20:25
Speaker
sibling loss chock full of awesome authors and you know now we're going to explore how to how to connect with with that and and bring that to the community and yeah so I would love for you to just talk about like non-human loss a little bit and how that's shown up yeah it's interesting I actually um last year um which it is interesting and I talked about this with somebody else um is I have realized I'm not an academic So last year i went back to school, 42 years. so
00:20:59
Speaker
Like I think previously the last diploma I got was maybe like, I don't know, 2014. I don't know.
Cultural Practices and Hierarchy in Grief
00:21:06
Speaker
Anyway, it was a good, it was a good, like like long time ago, I would say. Now, I'm constantly learning, always reading, doing all the things, but like actual academia, going back to college, going back school, whatever.
00:21:16
Speaker
So I did a course in AI, PEPF laws and grief and bereavement. Right. Yeah. Wow. That's that's a triple. That's a that's a combo.
00:21:27
Speaker
Yeah, that is a combo platter. Doing those three, I was like, okay, that's it. We're done. That's it. Academia, not for me. and Just because, and it's not that there's no place for this. i actually think there's an incredible place for both.
00:21:40
Speaker
I just, I've really realized that I'm definitely more of a practical, real person. As in, I'm not saying that an academic isn't. I'm just more real with situations.
00:21:51
Speaker
And I just, I feel like there is a lot of judgment out there. on types of grief and different types of losses. But there's also judgment insofar as, well, are you a licensed therapist?
00:22:05
Speaker
Are you a professional? And I know this is a huge bone of contention in the community between funeral directors, licensed funeral directors, death doulas and all that sort of stuff.
00:22:16
Speaker
um but I definitely found that I know I'm really good at my job my job being I'm a celebrate event planner and it's taken me a long time to get there to actually say those words thank you be used in humble Ireland I'm not okay good at anything um I know all about that yeah yeah like those families thank you thank you for that healing the inner child um but what I am what I There's grief in that too. Enjoy 100%. Yeah.
00:22:50
Speaker
But what I noticed is I learned from my experiences and I've been doing this for 16 years. And when I say I know I'm good at my job, like I never pretend to be something I'm not. I'm not a licensed child.
00:23:02
Speaker
I'm not a death doula. I am not a lawyer. i am not a licensed therapist. however still sit with somebody in grief i can still be a vessel for them to dump their feelings worse and i was actually at the grief european grief conference in dublin and just there before christmas which was an incredible experience but they were talking take me with you next time we're a virtual next year girl we're going actually i do i do want to talk to you mate i can't it's top secret but i'll talk to you at something after the recording sorry everybody me on the hangar
00:23:34
Speaker
You'll hear about it soon. i i I think leaving those breadcrumbs, I hate people that leave breadcrumbs. and So, but anyway, you're at the conference, they were talking about how how can we support and and encourage community.
00:23:51
Speaker
and have Like, and sort of like, okay, I might have lost my mother, my father, my brother, my and sister, my dog, right? I could have lost her. but So I'm grieving.
00:24:02
Speaker
um I may a not be able to afford a professional or I might not be able to get to a professional, right? Okay, now we have Zoom. It's making everything a little bit more accessible. So how can we still support people? Like, what about my neighbors, my family, out like friends that are left?
00:24:19
Speaker
So it was just such a, oh, it just turns the cards in my brain so much where I just thought this is it. And then just because I had been bad doing all these other things and and And I've totally digressed off point, but I am circling back to it, is that I did a pet loss one and I actually did a grief and bereavement one. And I chose to do high assignment essay, my kind of finale on pet. Yeah, it was interesting. Like, I just I thought i was doing this essay and I was writing it out. And yes, it was like to me, it was very academic. and
00:24:52
Speaker
You know, I don't think they they they thought it wasn't as an academic as it could be. and i come apart You're like, I'm a poet. Well, I just, yeah but just, it it kind of just put it in my head that I thought, okay, but is writing a textbook, like a heavy academic book about loss, is that and better worse than somebody just talking about? Like I have been told and so many times, oh, well, you're not a a licensed funeral director, so you shouldn't be doing this. Or you're not able to...
00:25:22
Speaker
Listen, you don't want somebody who's not like trained as a brain surgeon doing surgery on a brain. I get it. And I do think when it comes to the physical body, there are medical things that need to be followed. And I do think, you know, in our lives, we don't even have licensing. So um' we're why are you still dressed? But...
00:25:40
Speaker
but I guess the point is that there's just so many facets to this and we used to deal with bodies in the home. We used to wash them ourselves. so who ourselves And when did it become this sort of crazy, you know, professionals only, therapists only, licensed only sort of field?
00:26:01
Speaker
And I just, and when it comes to losses of all type, including pet loss, and and ah what I ah wrote my essay on was non-human
Collaboration in Death Care Industry
00:26:10
Speaker
loss. And I probably will publish it at some point. But I just, it it's kind of goes back to the TEDx talk that I did, which I'm so glad it's not out date in terms what I was trying to say, which is just to take judgment out of the equation.
00:26:21
Speaker
And this is something that I do believe, and rather than judging somebody for their degree that you don't deem as appropriate. I'm like, why are we why are we using a hierarchy?
00:26:32
Speaker
Why? Yeah. iing That, okay, you've lost your mom. So I think the jig is up on that one. I definitely do finish your thought. Cause I have a whole train that I'm going to. Yeah. And so I just, and then, you know, so, so it's like judgment when it comes to our grief, but then it's equally like in this community of professionals coming together.
00:26:51
Speaker
and right I do think I agree with the licensure for a funeral director. I do agree with it. I don't agree with how it's designed because I, for example, would have loved to have actually become a licensed funeral director, but I do not ever want to embalm a body. I don't want myself embalmed unless my parents want to, which they don't.
00:27:10
Speaker
I don't want them embalmed. It's not for me. I've seen embalming. I think the people who do it are incredible human beings. Yeah, absolutely. It's just not for me. I am a people person similar to yourself. I'm a people person. I could gab all day, yeah you know, talk about the, uh, you know, like, um, the gift to the gab. And so it's like, I do think it should be split into, you know, the two different things. I think you should have an understanding of the science behind embalming and all. Yes. Yeah. not
00:27:41
Speaker
So, um, so it comes down to, ah for me, I think, um, the death doula thing, I think is also an interesting topic. Um, and obviously I know you being one, um, is And as a celebrant, i have I've noticed this trend of death doulas coming to the fore, if you like.
00:27:57
Speaker
And I love and hate it I love it because it is trendy. And so it is putting it out in popular culture, which is amazing. I'm here for anything. I'm both so excited and also like, oh, now you know what I was talking about for you, you know? yeah it is funny. but um ah So what I will say, though, ah based off of everything you just said, i think what... And of course, like, you know, the the space, it's a little bit of the Wild West right now, right? um I've seen that used in in even, like...
00:28:30
Speaker
you know, just literature about where we're at in death care. And what I am such a firm believer and proponent in Jennifer is why can't we figure out a way to all be on the same team? Because that's how I have always, yes, that is how I've always seen it.
00:28:45
Speaker
um Example I always give just for anecdotal evidence, my Aunt Loretta died last year and ah she had Down syndrome. She was such a spitfire. One of her dreams was to like live in her own apartment with her friends.
00:28:57
Speaker
It broke my heart because she was living with us, but ah She went and she lived with her friends in this group home. And they, the director of the of the home was like, you know what? A lot of our residents are getting older.
00:29:09
Speaker
i believe that they should they should die at home if that's what they want. So they converted the computer room into a hospice room. um And that's where we we've moved my Aunt Loretta.
00:29:20
Speaker
And, you know, the hospice doctors and nurses were incredible. The people that took care of her in the home were incredible. The funeral director, once she went, a good family friend, was incredible. I'd stayed with the gravediggers while they lowered her down, and they were incredible.
00:29:39
Speaker
They're on my team. But me, as the death doula, I walk in and i see bare walls. And I know her my whole life. And I know that we lose so much moisture in our lips at the end of life. And I knew she loved chocolate pudding. So I ran to Walgreens and got Lip Smackers chocolate chapstick.
00:29:57
Speaker
I, you know, put lavender oil on her hands. I gave them my Amazon password so that she could watch... and dirty dancing on a loop but because you know she could sound right and so also you'll love this uh you know a few weeks before she died i called my aunt rosemary and i was like uh you know what are we gonna do for the funeral favors and she was like how could you talk about that at a time like this And I was like, well, she's in hospice.
00:30:28
Speaker
You know, like we know she is leaving soon. she She lived well, and I want to make sure she leaves well, too. And, um you know, she loved keychains. So we gave everybody a little L keychain at the funeral. And for weeks and weeks and weeks, whenever someone called...
00:30:48
Speaker
to ask us how we were doing, they had this anchor point. They had this thing to refer back to, to say, oh, ah you know, like my one friend at the cemetery that came, she she was like, oh my goodness, Aunt Loretta saved the day. I couldn't find my keys and the key chain was, you know, hanging on the hook.
00:31:06
Speaker
just the right way caught it or um you know one of my dad's friends who is you know an older dude was able to find an access point that he probably normally didn't have of say oh hey rich yeah you know i'm i'm using loretta's keychain like how how you doing it's been a few weeks now and then my aunt was just like oh my goodness That was incredible.
00:31:32
Speaker
i You know, what a small detail.
Integration of Death Doulas
00:31:34
Speaker
But yeah, I mean, in order to get 100 keychains to Long Island in time, we ordered them a week before she died. I am on that team. I was like, well, this is what I know I'm good at and what I can facilitate and the experience I could curate. And I asked her questions and we talked about trusting her body and that it knew exactly what it was doing and for her to, you know,
00:31:57
Speaker
I mean, one of the last things, like she said, I was like, Patrick Swayze is on TV. She's like, I know. I love you. Thank you. And it was the cutest moment ever. But anyway, so back to this whole idea of being on the team.
00:32:09
Speaker
I work at Greenwood. I work in the crematory doing paperwork on the weekends. I'm not a licensed crematory operator. I love working in concert with them, though. I love making sure that the paperwork that I do, that I put in these legal documents, that is the last great act you can do for someone is to make sure, you know, you put their name in the system, right? So when their great, great, great, great granddaughter comes to Greenwood um to, you know, memorialize them and be at the site of their cremation or or just connect,
00:32:38
Speaker
whatever they choose to do, um you know, that's all right and proper, right? um And that's the thing. it's It's everyone in admin that is, you know, stamping the paperwork from the funeral director. These funeral directors come in. I love working with them.
00:32:53
Speaker
um And I do think we ought to consider ourselves all on this larger team. Death work is ancient work. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. We've been living, at you know, we've been dying as long as we've been living. We've been living as long as we've been dying.
00:33:08
Speaker
And I just firmly believe, hey, death doulas, it's a non-regulated thing. It's non-medical palliative care. Every death doula has something different to offer. Maybe that's the exact right space for that to happen.
00:33:20
Speaker
and maybe there will be regulations that come along or maybe every hospice in America has a death doula on staff. works with hospice volunteers. Maybe funeral directors have a resident death doula. Like we joke at Greenwood, I'm like the resident death doula at Greenwood. um You know, and i I, that's how I can help and I can help guide them into, you know, what is best for them but before they go talk to our memorial counselors. So they're more empowered to have that conversation when they get to that person on the greater team.
00:33:51
Speaker
So I think we need to hang out more. Yeah, put it very simply. I think the funeral directors, the hospice doctors and nurses, the celebrants, ah people in the pet loss and non-human loss space, people that cemeterians. What am I forgetting?
00:34:07
Speaker
but I mean, there's so many facets. You were right when you said that. Yeah, there is actually so many. And it's so mind blowing to me. um to still to this day see it it be so fragmented and so yeah it doesn't need to be so let's change it my area yeah and and it's for me i'm not saying let's all join hands and get all muddled in the middle like all right exactly like even as an event planner as a memorial planner i'm very much like stick to your lane
00:34:39
Speaker
Like, you know, if you're children yeah you' the musician, if you're the florist, you're the florist. right you know Right. Let the florist be the florist. Let the funeral director be the funeral director. Yeah, exactly yeah yeah I'm always joking. I'm like, nobody's the Cheesecake Factory, okay? You can't do everything.
00:34:57
Speaker
but Wait, I love that so much. Yes, there's so much truth into that. It's each person in the team has has a role and that role should be celebrated and
Conclusion and Gratitude
00:35:07
Speaker
understood. And then all of a sudden the pieces of the puzzle really can come together.
00:35:11
Speaker
Exactly. Exactly. yeah no I think it's I think it's brilliant and I think that's a wonderful way to end this episode as much as I think you and I could waffle on these weeks months I don't think we truly could yeah we've burned the ears off everybody so we might have to just get Gabrielle back on the episode maybe we'll have her like every season or maybe maybe you'll just be a recurring guest or maybe we'll join forces who knows i mean sounds good to me wilder things have happened wilder things have happened and thank you so much for all the work you do and and just generally like yeah putting like follow her on socials and stuff like that because you do you just put good juju 8 to the world and and good vibes just you know all that zhuzhy stuff and um yeah we look forward to watching this space
00:36:03
Speaker
Yeah. Thank you so much. Everybody stay glam. Keep gabbing about death care. um And I hope we get to talk soon.