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Rebuilding Faces, Restoring Families: The Embalmer Behind Military Repatriations
30 Plays1 day ago
Why do we wait until someone dies to learn how to deal with death?
In this episode of The Glam Reaper Podcast, Jennifer Muldowney sits down with Jennifer Lares, a licensed funeral director, educator, and former U.S. Army mortuary officer who managed repatriations across Europe and Africa. Together, they open a side of the funeral world that most people never see — where compassion, ethics, and resilience meet REALITY.
Jennifer Lares reveals what it’s really like behind military and civilian funerals, how empathy and education can change the way we face loss. From exposing industry silence and scandals to rethinking Direct Cremation and modern airbrush cosmetics, this conversation challenges everything you thought you knew about death care.
It’s real. And it might just change how you see life, grief, and the people who serve behind the curtain of death.
🎧 Tune in to discover how curiosity, courage, and compassion can transform the way we say goodbye.
Key Topics:
-Honoring the fallen and the unseen work behind repatriation
-Redefining empathy and teamwork in funeral service education
-The courage to speak up in an industry built on silence
-Reimagining beauty, dignity, and goodbyes through modern death care
-Learning to face death with curiosity, not fear
Quotes from the episode:
“We know that we’re all going to die, and yet we don’t learn anything about it until you have to. So why would you not involve this in education when you’re growing up?”
-Jennifer Lares
“But if you don’t evolve, you dissolve.”
-Jennifer Muldowney
Timestamp:
[00:00] Podcast Intro
[00:29] Jennifer Lares shares her experience as a U.S. Army mortuary officer in Germany, reflecting on the challenges of repatriating fallen service members, cultural differences around death, and her mission to elevate funeral education through advanced embalming and training.
[10:23] She talks about teaching empathy-led teamwork, sensitive communication with grieving families, and modernizing end-of-life care through airbrush cosmetics and progressive education.
[21:52] The conversation moves to licensing and specialization in funeral service, the staffing challenges across states, and Jennifer’s honest take on the California mortician scandal—why abuses happen and why the industry needs stronger ethics and protection.
[32:30] Jennifer discusses gender bias, inequality, and society’s fascination with scandal and death. She calls for rethinking cremation, respecting diverse beliefs, and re-educating the public on the sacred value of ritual and the body.
[43:19] To close, she highlights the need for transparency, curiosity, and higher standards—urging the profession to embrace accountability, continuous learning, and stronger oversight to restore trust in death care.
[53:57] Outro
Connect with Jennifer Lares:
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/jennifer-lares-a09163302
Websites - mullingmortician.com
Instagram: @mullingmortician
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Email us - glamreaperpodcast@gmail.com
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Transcript
Introduction to the Glam Reaper Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
We know that we're all going to die, and yet we don't learn anything about it until you have to. So why would you not involve this in education when you're growing up?
00:00:11
Speaker
Why would we not make it comfortable with it, knowing it's inevitable before we have to? And I feel like...
Guest's Life in Germany and Role in Mortuary Services
00:00:28
Speaker
Welcome to another episode of the Glam Reaper podcast. I'm your host, Jennifer Muldowney, a.k.a. the Glam Reaper. And on today's episode, I have my fellow namesake. We have another Jennifer in the building. My gosh.
00:00:41
Speaker
um And what I love about this Jennifer is she actually lived for a spell in one of my favorite countries in in the world, I would nearly say. Definitely in Europe, which is not everybody's favorite. Everyone kind of goes to Italy. I do love Italy. But Germany.
00:00:57
Speaker
I love Germany and I love the Germans and I actually need to go back. I lived there for a tiny time myself. And here we have on the episode, Jennifer, welcome. Thank you Thank you for having me.
00:01:09
Speaker
How are you? I'm good. Thank you Of course. Good. Good. Well, tell us and tell us a little bit about you. So you're licensed funeral director and you were in this business in Germany.
00:01:19
Speaker
So you weren't doing what I was doing, which was just eating all the Nuschneckes and the chocolate milks up of the world, spending all the time in the bakeries. Oh, right. Yes. So I was doing that as well. There's a grocery store there. um I think it's called Vasco and they have a really nice little bakery. And so I did manage to frequent the bakery. I just now, I think, finally returned to my pre-Germany weight um because when I did get slightly fluffy ah while I was living there.
00:01:43
Speaker
So, yes. I did fall prey to their delicious food. Which is interesting because actually a lot of Americans tell me they lose weight when they go to York. Well, there was a lot of walking in a general sense, but I think that it was a little different for me personally because I had like a fitness community before I had moved over there that I kind of lost. And so I didn't quite have that over there. I never really quite found that, but I did find the bakery instead.
00:02:06
Speaker
um I indulged a bit more than probably I needed to and wasn't as active as I needed to be. But there was definitely a lot of walking. There are no elevators. The houses have stairs. So it was a good experience. like I really enjoyed I did. And I think Germany is kind of underrated, um you know, because there's a certain authenticity about the people of Germany, you know, that...
00:02:26
Speaker
They talk about how like Americans, if you walk by, you smile or you'll have these conversations with strangers like in an elevator or something that aren't necessarily organic. Whereas if, you know, a German person smiles at you, they authentically want to smile at you. So I feel like it's more almost more real.
00:02:42
Speaker
It's so true. I found them to be the most helpful people in the world. Like I remember in ah in a similar time, I went to France and I spoke. I had the same amount of French as I had German.
00:02:54
Speaker
And i so I tried in both and the French just wanted nothing to do with me. They laughed at me. Whereas the Germans were like, yeah, yeah, you know, like trying to help. And, you know, so I still have I still have a little I speak a bit of Deutsch still. and I really have to go back.
00:03:10
Speaker
I think once you have a language, I think it's the yeah it's like a muscle in the brain that just has memory. um And so it'll bounce back. So hopefully, yeah, I need a i need to go back for an Ilmoshnege.
00:03:20
Speaker
But tell us, what were you doing in Germany? So up until July of last year, i was a civilian mortuary officer
Challenges in the Mortuary and Funeral Industry
00:03:28
Speaker
at the U.S. Army Regional Mortuary. And we served Europe and Africa. So we would serve...
00:03:33
Speaker
Eligible personnel, active duty, their family members, civilian contractors and the like, and we would expedite and repatriate them back to the U.S. We had at the time we had Armed Forces Medical Examiner presence there as well. So we often perform duties similar to what Doverport Mortuary does in Delaware.
00:03:50
Speaker
only our territory was quite large. We covered all of your all of Europe and Africa and we handled the logistical movement. So if there was a death in another country, we had to be mindful not only of, you know, the DOD processes and and standards and the German laws, but we also had to take into consideration movement wherever the body happened to be and make sure we were abiding by whatever those local processes and documentation and things were. So it was really quite an interesting challenge sometimes because you'd have just this random place and and in like you know Czech Republic or somewhere, and you've got to figure out like the moving parts of getting that decedent into your care and then doing it expeditiously, but also within the constructs of whatever the requirements are. So it was kind of the neat um a challenge in that it's not something you would encounter day-to-day over here, I think, in the civilian sector.
00:04:42
Speaker
And I was there for almost three years, and that was my second time being... a mortician for the Department of Defense. I did serve in the Navy from 2007 to 2012. And during that time, I was active duty. So I entered the Navy at 30 years old. I was the oldest female in boot camp, put the uniform on, went through boot camp, became a hospital corpsman.
00:05:03
Speaker
And then ah the Navy is the only branch that has active duty license field directors and embalmers. And so when you come in, you already have your licensure and that knowledge. So you supplement the hospital corpsman knowledge with that. And that's really where your specialty lies. So that's what I did um for a little over five years. So had been i had worn the hat of a Department of Defense.
From Military to Funeral Service Training
00:05:22
Speaker
um mortician but it's definitely different amongst the branches. i will tell you that the, the air force army, all of that, they're, they're, you know, similar, but ah different at the same time. And I was able to kind of see that firsthand as well, working for the army.
00:05:35
Speaker
So now when you were in Germany, were you looking after civilians? As well as military or just military? now we we took civilian civilians as well so like if it was an active duty members family member or a retiree and there are a significant number of retired um u s service members that married a german and live in germany so Sometimes we would have them and they would want to be returned back to the U.S. for burial and final placement. So we would have those situations.
00:06:05
Speaker
um We would have certain contractors and civilian personnel that were eligible for our services. Sometimes they would have to pay you know the cost um or what our costs would be. But we did take care of people um in and out of a uniform.
00:06:19
Speaker
Okay, okay. But only those that were out of uniform, it was they were still attached to the military in some way, shape, or form. Correct, yes. They still had eligibility. Because like if you were over there and you're just, like say, a veteran, like I'm a veteran, I'm not a retiree. And if I had been over there like vacationing or something and died, I wouldn't be eligible for care because I'm not a retiree or in any way linked to have access to care through that mortuary. I have to have care through the German economy, which you can find...
00:06:48
Speaker
German funeral homes, especially in the area where our mortuary is, is very um highly populated with Americans. So you can find German funeral homes that are fluent English and are familiar with the Western ways of doing things and and get care in that way as well.
00:07:00
Speaker
Because we also did not do any type of cremation services. So if a person wished to be cremated, then they would need to be cremated locally on the economy with a German funeral home.
00:07:11
Speaker
Or we would send full body back to the States in a casket and they could have services and be cremated in the U.S., Wow. Wow. OK, so quite strict, really, on what what you could cover and what you couldn't.
00:07:23
Speaker
So if i I mean, I'm not American, so but if I was and I happen to be just holidaying in Germany, it's still, you know, if I died, it would be the kind contacting consulate and potentially just a funeral home over there working with a funeral home over here. It wouldn't be anything Yeah, we did get state department requests sometimes. um And so sometimes it's matter, you may have a state department request, there's a connection there.
00:07:47
Speaker
um But there's also repatriation companies there that are familiar. The consulate has lists of approved funeral providers that like U.S. citizens can use as well. Yeah. Now we have a similar similar vibe over here for the Irish consulate and all that sort of stuff. and Very familiar with us, unfortunately.
00:08:05
Speaker
and So tell us, you came back you're from Germany to U.S. Yes. So I came back in July and I had been adjunct teaching for Northeast Texas Community College prior to going to Germany cause I was over there for almost three years.
00:08:21
Speaker
And so I had been adjunct teaching in the funeral service education program when I left. I continued to do that. And then the timing worked out when I returned that they happened to have a full time instructor opening.
00:08:32
Speaker
And so I was able to become full-time faculty and I work out of San Antonio. And I also launched my own small business in May of last year. It's called Mulling Mortician. And I provide virtual and on-site training and consulting for funeral professionals. So I basically take their...
00:08:50
Speaker
processes, their clientele, and their supplies into context when I'm training with them so that it's applicable to them in a specific sense. I also do general training and I'm a CE provider. So i'm also CE provider with the Academy of Professional Funeral Service Practice, the state of Texas, and the state of Florida.
00:09:08
Speaker
So people can get credits as they're training with me. And I tend to be a problem solver, so I can work with directors or embalmers. But I like to kind of help them with um just elevating where they are in terms of technique or the firms looking for standardization.
00:09:22
Speaker
I've had advanced training in facial reconstruction and restoration. i was the first American to complete European School of Embalming Skills. And I did that literally the month before I came back. So that was in Belgium.
00:09:33
Speaker
And I did two weeks, a very intense reconstruction, and it was fantastic opportunity. I'm so glad I did that before I came back. um So I have experience through my career, but also within the context of that advanced training. And then I've trained with Bernie Fountain as well. So I can go into firms and assist them if they have a case that requires some reconstruction restoration. I can assist with that. Or if they just want some training, I can help with that as well.
00:10:01
Speaker
And then, of course, funeral directing. Great. So tell us, um so you're based in Texas, and but you also offer the CEs in Florida. And a CE, for anybody you doesn't know, is continuing education for a funeral professional.
00:10:16
Speaker
and And they have to have certain per year and for membership. Yeah. What is your favorite CE to
Teamwork and Specialization in Funeral Services
00:10:23
Speaker
teach for you personally? Well, I have one that I it's called Sweat the Small Stuff. And I like to do that particular course because it's inclusive of the whole team. And so basically what you're doing is you're kind of breaking down the experience that a client gets when they come into your funeral home. And so it's kind of a reminder of the value of each person's role that they play, whether they're carrying the flowers or cleaning, or they're the administrative side and they're doing documents and programs and things like that. But it's a nice like reminder of that collaborative element and how intertwined their roles are. And I like to kind of take a moment with them to explore that and just remind them of that through the through the process of that training. And I kind of remind them about what it's like to walk into their buildings when you're a consumer or the public.
00:11:12
Speaker
versus your day-to-day because it does look different when you're on the other side of the arrangement table and so I like to kind of remind them and put them in that vantage point just as a for perspective and so they can really see how even the smallest of gestures you know the way you pick up behind you know a service and clean up or the way that you hold the door open for someone the way that you answer the phone all these small details are a big picture they contribute to that customer experience and And honestly, I feel like service is the only differentiator or really left at this point and because people can get merchandise anywhere. And so it's nice to teach that class and see people kind of um kind of reignited with that feeling of empowerment and importance, because I think sometimes people forget how important their role is based on the title. And in the in the reality of things, all of those pieces are and roles are really important.
00:12:06
Speaker
And a field director can't do a funeral by themselves. They really can't. Like you have to have the drivers. Yeah. You know what I mean? But yes, we have the title and the license, but we can't do it without the team. And I think that also making people aware and reminding them that when you have a family or a decedent in your care, it's not so-and-so's case or, you know, oh, that's so, you know, I don't know that I'm not handling that. It really is more of a team effort. And if you approach your decedents and your and your cases as ours,
00:12:36
Speaker
I think that what that does, too, is you get more investment out of people from the leadership perspective. And I feel like we learned that a lot with COVID because you had people that couldn't come to work for a week at a time unexpectedly. And so you may start with a family and then you may have to turn it over to someone else without any type of of time and and expectation of having to do that. And so I think that just reminding people that we share relationships.
00:12:59
Speaker
those those cases as a team, as a whole, and providing for them. And I think that's really, it's nice to kind of remind people of that and and kind of see those things gl when they realize how intertwined their roles are. So I really enjoy that particular one.
00:13:13
Speaker
Yeah. And which do you prefer? Do you work in a funeral home? right So I do freelance work because am doing court content creation over the summer for Molly Mortician because I have the summers where I'm not teaching. That's usually when I'll start working more diligently on like the courses. I have one I'm finishing up and tweaking called Difficult Conversations. so I'm presenting in September for the Emerging Leaders in Texas. And that's going to talk about those instances where you have to maybe describe trauma to a family.
00:13:45
Speaker
Or brooch subjects that are just really uncomfortable, like when a person is of a size where they're going to require maybe certain types of caskets or equipment and just how to tactfully and gently have these conversations with while preserving the honesty piece.
00:14:00
Speaker
And so I'm available. Like I have a little reconstruction kit at my house and i have a ah ah little lab here in my house where I experiment um with different products and things just to kind of see, test out different products. I work a lot with Dynare, which is at the airbrush cosmetic company, and i've co-branded an airbrush kit with them.
00:14:20
Speaker
And so i actually do a lot of work with the airbrush cosmetic um to look at like how long It laughs and just kind of, you know, play with a little bit so that when I go to a place and I say, hey, this this is capable of doing this. Like I i know I've seen it my own self.
00:14:35
Speaker
And so I also practice my restoration ah sometimes when I have downtime, because I think if you can hone your skills when they're not and in a moment of demand. You have a little bit more of a relaxed way of approaching it because of the fact you're not like, oh, I got to hurry up. I only have so many hours.
00:14:54
Speaker
And so if you can, it's like sharpening your sword. If you can practice and hone your skills when they're not called upon, you're going to be that much more prepared when you do have to perform. And so I do that sometimes in my downtime, too. I do some writing for American funeral director as well.
00:15:07
Speaker
have some articles in there. So I like to stay busy. i read and geek out over all things funeral related. um And while I'm not attached to a specific funeral home, I'm available. i Like I said, I am licensed, dual licensed in Texas or Florida and I travel. So if a firm needs help, I will i will fly in or drive in and pretty much help out with whatever that is that they need that I can assist with.
00:15:29
Speaker
Which do you prefer? you prefer front of house or back of house? Back of house being usually aid stairs or whatever, like embalming and... This is more scientific. You I think it varies. I think there are times when you like to be in the back of the house because typically when you're providing care to the decedents, when you walk away from that task of embalming, you're done to an extent.
00:15:55
Speaker
And so and you get the immediate gratification of seeing change from start to finish in that in that time window. So you're not laying in bed later thinking about it. Whereas when you're funeral directing and you're seeing multiple families, you know, did I call the florist? Did I order the vault? Like it takes days for those to kind of start to finish. And even then you're you're done, but you have a relationship with the family.
00:16:17
Speaker
So I think it kind of depends on where I'm at energy wise, because sometimes I like the solitude of embalming because that is more of a one person task. But then I also like the creativity that can come into creating a funeral and and experience for a family.
00:16:32
Speaker
So it varies. I like to stay flexible on both sides of things. But if I had to pick one, if it's like I'm on an island and I can only a bone director embalm, I would probably pick embalming only because i I'm a bit of a nerd. And the capabilities that embalming allow when it comes to just recreating like that natural color and the contours and just that peacefulness is amazing.
00:16:59
Speaker
That's what kind of drew me in when I was a teenager into funeral service. It was what like I thought that was so powerful. And to be able to to not just witness that, but then to be able to orchestrate that is pretty incredible.
00:17:12
Speaker
And to give people the opportunity to like hold their child again or. um And I know, you you know, embalming is not required. However, it is recommended for a lot of different types of services. And I think that it definitely has its place and its value.
00:17:26
Speaker
And um I enjoy being able to do that, to be able to kind of restore people back into something peaceful, maybe prior to illness, prior to accident, so that that memory picture isn't... Sometimes the family's imagination is worse than a reality. And I think that when you're able to give them something that...
00:17:41
Speaker
That just soothes them a little bit, even if it's um not perfect. It's going to be better than maybe what they've conjured in their mind. And so I think that that having that capability is is pretty powerful and has ah there's a lot of responsibility associated with it. So I really enjoy that part of things.
00:17:58
Speaker
do you Do you take it, especially for ladies, do you take it all the way through to the end? So for women, like would you do you apply makeup? Because I know some people do the embalming, but then they'll have a makeup artist come in and do it. So I cosmetics as well.
00:18:13
Speaker
um and i And especially with the airbrush, I think it's it's kind of nice because you can... contour and highlight and use light and things as well. And one of the interesting things that I'm trying to kind of help educate people about is the possibility of applying cosmetic to unemball people. So and if a family choosing something more like green burial or cremation, or they're not having a public viewing They don't want a large crowd or a long period of time, but maybe they just need that that goodbye moment. I feel like we can be doing the goodbye moment as a profession better.
00:18:50
Speaker
I know that there are some firms that don't want to apply cosmetic because if the the person is not involved, they worry about contamination or hygiene and things like that. And I think that's where the airbrush can can solve that problem because it does not have contact with skin. It's just literally pushing air and makeup onto skin. And so I feel like we have the possibility as a profession to provide a better goodbye using the the airbrush and learning how to use it, learning how to use that makeup.
00:19:20
Speaker
And there's a lot you can do with it in terms of covering. And um that's something I feel pretty passionately about is not just doing the makeup, but really thinking about it beyond just the viewing and burial. Oftentimes there's that that link of, oh, they're having a viewing and then burial. They're having a viewing and then.
00:19:39
Speaker
But just because they're not having a public viewing, we can do more than just, you know, close the eyes, mouth and brush their hair. Like we can do a little bit. I think we can do better. And yeah will it take a little bit longer? Yes. But ah if you can give them a better ah better goodbye, why wouldn't you? And I feel like that's something I'm trying to help educate our profession about.
00:19:58
Speaker
And I feel like airbrush is the answer to that. And it's always been there, but it's not commonly used. And so there's a lack of education, training. And that's where. I've created education training for death care specifically when it comes to application of an airbrush and how to apply that makeup, how to select the makeup, like how to do all those things.
00:20:19
Speaker
And i'm I'm working on that. I have CE approved training on that. i actually go to sites and I set up little easels and actual airbrushes so that the that people there can practice in real time with things like saturation distance. Because when you have to do it in a moment and you're not familiar with it, that's when the pressure is on.
00:20:37
Speaker
That's not the time to grab the airbrush out of your drawer when it's been in there for five years. And now you're like, um maybe I should try this. And like anything else, the more comfortable you get with your equipment, your supplies, the more deft you know at adept you are going to be using it. And that's going to give you the confidence and skill that you need. it's just a matter of learning. And so that's like I made a video this I think last week I was cleaning it and I demonstrated how to clean the airbrush because it's actually quite easy.
00:21:03
Speaker
And I made a remark in there about if you're cleaning your brushes in the funeral home with this much attention, message me because nobody usually does, right? like You grab a brush and usually it's got color from something else. You're like, oh, no. Or you use ah a cosmetic brush and a bris the bristles come out. And don't you've ever had this experience on yourself when you're putting makeup on, like with a brush where bristle is stuck on your face.
00:21:25
Speaker
And nothing is worse than doing intricate work. like with restoration, and then there's a brush hair in it. And you're like, no. And so I think that's one of the nice things about airbrush cosmetic is you don't have to worry about that. And you still have texture. You're not creating a mannequin.
00:21:39
Speaker
You're getting coverage with pores and freckles and the natural age, the natural flaws that we have. You're not compromising those. to create viewability. And I feel like that's something that we really can explore and benefit from.
00:21:52
Speaker
Well, you and I have talked, I mean, I love makeup. I always have. I've worked in makeup when I was younger. and And you and I have talked about potentially doing a sort of a day's worth of CE classes together.
00:22:05
Speaker
The Jennifer, the duo effect. um And I'm super excited. Like, I'm not a licensed funeral director, but I'm like, I wonder if I could kind of attend the airbrushing because I just am fascinated with it. And, um you know, I've contrary to to popular belief, like just because I'm not a licensed funeral director, I'm not afraid of bodies and I've been around plenty of them and I've adjusted where I've needed to to do so.
Workforce Mobility and Licensure Challenges
00:22:28
Speaker
And and I do actually I'm going to ask your opinion on this because I do.
00:22:33
Speaker
i I would like to become a licensed funeral director I'm just not of the embalming ilk as I would say so if it was sort of dual licensed where it was front of house and back of house like which I wish it was and I think a lot of people would do both which is fine i personally would just like I'd be a great arranger um but you know I can't just do that so it's quite frustrating um what are your thoughts on that because I know it's in some states already it's potentially coming to New York State.
00:23:01
Speaker
and I'm actually not sure about Florida. So Florida, ah you can be either just an embalmer or both. And then Texas, where I'm also licensed, you can be just the director or both.
00:23:13
Speaker
And I think that because there's inconsistencies with that, what it does is it limits mobility for people. And I think some it puts some states at a disadvantage. Because if you only want to be a director and work with people and do the front of the house and you're not interested in embalming,
00:23:29
Speaker
then some states are not going to be able to easily go and get a license there, right? Because they're going to acquire that embalming element. And I feel like if states would look at these things separately. Now, as a director, yes, it's important to understand the basic mechanics of embalming to be able to speak intelligently and effectively to a family, ah right? yeah But that doesn't mean you need to perform the embalming.
00:23:51
Speaker
And as an um when you're dual licensed as an embalmer and you're only dealing predominantly with the back of the house, then... Like you don't need to know the mechanics of a Catholic funeral or you know what I mean? So I feel like when they do that combination, though, and they don't have have options, you're going to potentially find that your state will have less people, less than your workforce.
00:24:13
Speaker
And they're going to attract less people because if people only and I think it's so important to you to recognize where you fit best and. I think when you know that meeting with families is is more of what you are like good at and comfortable with or being in the back and working on care of the decedents is something.
00:24:33
Speaker
It's so important to recognize that and to recognize that in your staff. And I think when a person is more comfortable in one side or the other and they're dual licensed, sometimes you're at a disadvantage because that means that you can be put either or.
00:24:46
Speaker
and you get pulled. And I saw this when I worked in Seattle. I worked with a gentleman who he was actually Italian. And he's Italian was his first language.
00:24:58
Speaker
And he was kind of quite reserved. And he didn't like helping so much with like meeting talking to families. And so he preferred to be in the back. And I recognized that in him.
00:25:13
Speaker
And I remember at the time with our firm, with the size of it and the number of families we were serving, I couldn't avoid, because I was managing it at the time, I couldn't avoid him having to kind of work funerals and and do these things, even though he was an embalmer, he didn't really want to do those things.
00:25:28
Speaker
Later, our company became was acquired by SCI. And we were part of the steward acquisition. And so that was kind of a scary, uncertain time. We were the only firm in Washington state. So we didn't know what was going to happen to us for a while. So you go into work every day. You didn't know, are they going to sell our funeral? Like what's about to happen to us.
00:25:46
Speaker
And so when we were acquired, one of the nice things was they had a care center and he was so excited by the idea of being able to work in the care center where that's all he had to focus on.
00:25:57
Speaker
And when people are where they belong, You see them really thrive and it's more sustainable. They're going to do a better job. They're going to be more comfortable in their job.
00:26:08
Speaker
And because of the way licensure is structured in some states, it's not going to allow for that. And I think you're going and especially now when there's holes in the workforce and you have a lack of staffing and that's a real problem.
00:26:19
Speaker
In a lot of places, I think it's going to be more of a pronounced problem potentially in those states because of the fact, especially now, i mean, I feel like COVID was and I know i mentioned COVID before, but it was pretty significant event and it was relatively recent. And I think during that period of time, people had a wake up of sorts where it's like they started to see like what was important, what wasn't because people were dying around them.
00:26:41
Speaker
And being unfulfilled in your work is something that I don't think a lot of people will tolerate anymore. And I think that when you're in a role where you're not doing what you feel like like you could or should be doing, and you're not it's not going to be good for you over the long term.
00:26:54
Speaker
And I feel like that's an opportunity that states, I wish that there was like a licensing blanket.
Ethics, Diversity, and Inclusion in Funeral Practices
00:27:00
Speaker
And I know that that's not realistic. I think having a board exam helps because it gives some standardization.
00:27:06
Speaker
And the test scores have gotten better. i know that's been a big complaint about being a barrier to entry, but they have gotten better. The test scores have gotten better. But I feel like that's going to be it's going to continue to be a problem.
00:27:17
Speaker
I think there'll be a lot of change in the future. And there really, really will. And I think that leads us very nicely to, I wanted to guess here, your thoughts on the mortician that's out. um Obviously, it's scandalous. It's outrageous.
00:27:35
Speaker
It's all of the things. What are your thoughts? teach... Predominantly law, mortuary law. And one of the assignments that I give my students is to identify like a scandal or or ah a case within funeral service, and then they break it down. And that's one that I've seen commonly mentioned by students because it has such a variety of things in it. It's not just...
00:27:59
Speaker
like mishandling or misidentification. But that particular instance has so many just abuses of corpse and different things that that were happening. And also like the weird side activities, like beating up the competitors and having like football player dudes, like, you know, intimidating people. Like it's it's almost not it's almost not even real when you are watching it or hearing about it or reading about it because it just seems so outrageous and just exaggerated almost.
00:28:30
Speaker
And i feel like it's interesting when we watch these cases because everyone becomes ah obviously and rightfully like enraged by this but that this went on and i think it's fascinating when they talked and they interview him mr sconce and he says like he says that you know everyone's a sand when they're cremated and he he says that from a place where i think he authentically believes that i think he really thinks that even now and that's even more infuriating and
00:29:01
Speaker
I feel like, you know, it wasn't just him. It was a series of people. And you'll see that in in the show. Right. you know There was a series of people, even um I think it was was his mom or there was those the female that was running the funeral home that was also very aware of things. So people were very aware of things prior to it finally getting revealed.
00:29:22
Speaker
And I think it is one of those things where we talk about, oh, you know, if you see something, say something. and And I say that I made a video about that because we've had some bad um events in Texas recently at the time that we're recording this. And so it was a matter of, you know, things that are bad get it's just like with any type of customer service. Right. The complaint is going to get the attention, whereas when things are going well, everything is quiet.
00:29:47
Speaker
And it's like, why aren't we talking more about when things are going well? Like, why aren't we sharing things we're doing in the community? Why aren't we sharing our processes with families? but Like, if I had my own crematory and and i did all my own work, like, I would make sure families knew that.
00:30:03
Speaker
If I had a third party and I outsourced, I would make sure that I had eyes all over that place, unannounced even. Yeah. And I feel like sometimes, you know, when we see these things happen and it's like, oh, obviously someone should have said something.
00:30:18
Speaker
But then I also think about the challenge of saying something. And that's a very real thing. And I feel like if you are that person that says, I want you to imagine that you work for David Sconce and you're watching him have football players beat up his competitors and he has almost a larger-than-life persona. I think that we need protective measures so that if you do have the courage to say something, you're not fearful of any type of repercussions. Because I know, theoretically, there's not supposed to be any, right? A whistleblower or a person who says something is supposed to be protected.
00:30:52
Speaker
But the reality is, and And, you know, you could get blacklisted from being hired. And in that instance, with that particular case in California, because, again, it was larger than life, like you had to almost worry about your physical safety.
00:31:05
Speaker
But I feel like in a general sense, if you were to take even a small... version of that really outlandish situation and just make a small thing you see in a funeral home. And I say small in comparison to and I'm saying if you see like a mouse, I feel like, yes, we should be able to say something. But what do you do when the person who's doing it is is the owner of the leader?
00:31:27
Speaker
And I feel like that's conversations that we need to kind of have. It's like, yes, we know that, you know, we should say something as a profession. And I will say, like, amongst the cases that have been discussed in Texas, I know one pops into my mind where the staff contacted, like, the board and...
00:31:45
Speaker
Like the the funeral home itself, when they realized what had happened, they contacted the right authorities when they realized what the employee had done. So they reported it themselves. They did self-reporting, which is good, right? Which is how it should be if you notice something.
00:32:00
Speaker
I think we need to have conversations to help navigate what you do when it is the owner or it is the leader or they threaten to pretty much, you know, spread lies about you that can impact you getting a job and things like that. We need better protections for people to feel like they can say something without it damaging their career or in the case of like that wildness in California without them having to worry about someone spiking their spaghetti with oleander whatever that madness was and and potentially causing them harm.
00:32:28
Speaker
But yeah. It's a lot. Yeah, it's it definitely is. I mean, I've worked in funeral homes and with funeral homes where I have seen that sort of carry on happen and it get reported and then get just dismissed. I've been victim like I think every woman has of you know, sexual advances, ah unwanted sexual advances and stuff like that in this business. and Although I will say, I'm saying this business, I do want to preface and I'm i'm very much, i don't like I don't like people, nor do I like to call wolf, you know, am in in crying wolf in in that sense.
00:33:08
Speaker
It happens in every business. I've worked in multiple different industries, marketing, corporate, you know, even the back in the makeup days for corporations. and And I've worked in bars, restaurants, all across the board. And in every industry, there's some form of predators and there's some form of jackasses, honestly, and who always, they're always in leadership roles. they're I mean, look at the cut this country right now. They're always in leadership. And it's like, how how are they?
00:33:33
Speaker
I actually am and not going to name, I probably should, but I'm not going to name the brand. But it It disappointed me to no end. And there was a social media post I saw recently where and they were talking about their speakers at a recent conference that they threw. It's relatively small private company, am but they threw this conference and every single one of the speakers was a white man over the age of, I would say, 45, 50. I mean, i you know, every single one of the speakers, and I think like 10 different speakers. And I was like...
00:34:06
Speaker
And I know that women in leadership in that company, so I'm not saying that, it but it was just like, really? Really? There's nobody else we can find. And I'm not saying because I also, which I've had arguments with my friends over this, is I'm not saying to hire somebody because they're female or because they're black or because they're Indian or because they're Asian or whatever it is, or because they're gay. I'm not saying you hire them because that you hire the best person for the job. And maybe in this instance, the best speakers were all men.
00:34:34
Speaker
I mean, i don't know. I certainly didn't get an invitation. You didn't. Maybe we're not good enough. Maybe we don't make the cut. I don't know. um But it's it is very frustrating. And, you know, yeah I have just seen and experienced it from my own point of view. So I completely get where you're coming from.
00:34:52
Speaker
um Mental health is a huge issue. thing I try and help people with, um especially women, and because that's the area I know. That's my little box. And it's just, it's really hard. Yeah. Like if there's somebody who, like, I can only imagine being somebody who worked for that guy, David, and seeing this, I mean, my gut reaction would be just get the hell out of there and just move on, you know, and then, but then therefore he's getting away with it.
00:35:22
Speaker
Now, I will say, and this is going to be really controversial. I really don't want to say it. But I will say that one of the things that interested me or has interested me is how scandalous this is. Right. That didn't that doesn't shock me, because look at Making of a Murderer and the Menendez brothers like that. These shows meant thrill and excite. And it's like human beings, we we love car crash. is, you know, we love car crash TV. So it's like, um you know, when it comes to the the funeral world, it's like when somebody's saying, oh, what when somebody died by suicide, the next question you get is, well, what happened? What do they do?
00:36:00
Speaker
And, you know, how wrong that is to do to say that to a grieving family. But yet, and I i am I've always controversial in my thoughts, but yet I'm like, but why? We always seem to want to know those details. It's like a human thing in us.
00:36:15
Speaker
Like whenever you get in traffic, whenever you get stuck in traffic, nearly 70% of the time it's because of people rubbernecking. It's because they're literally slowing down to look at the airport. I don't know what they're hoping to see. It infuriates me so much. i actually make a point of never turning my head and just keep going. But one of the things with the sconce thing and the lamb funeral home, and by no means of agreeing with him, I want to make that crystal clear.
00:36:41
Speaker
Is when he did say about cremating multiple bodies, right? I'm sure he's not the only person who's done that in the world. I'm sure he's not the only person who believes what he believes in that if the person's gone, throw them in, right?
00:36:56
Speaker
You know, we do that to our dogs. and Like when when my dogs died, you're presented with, do you want a ah communal cremation or singular where you know the ashes are getting back? I'm not saying it's right.
00:37:08
Speaker
um But I think there are certain people out there in the world that do believe once we die, that's it. We're done. Our soul, if they believe in that, our soul is gone or they're just atheists and they're like, that's it. it's I don't need to see the person. I don't want to see them again.
00:37:25
Speaker
They're gone. Now I have to grieve. um And these people aren't unhealthy people, by the way. But they do just believe what he believes. like Once we're gone, we're gone. And I'm just, rather than going on the defense, which I feel like the whole of the industry is doing, I'm more like, can we pick apart the things that are coming up here?
00:37:44
Speaker
Is there room? And again, I'm not saying it's right, but is there room for communal cremation? Maybe that's something that is offered somewhere in the world, i in in the country. I don't know.
00:37:56
Speaker
Because there are people who don't, can't afford funerals, right? and And end up getting in debt because of them, similar to weddings. People go crazy and they get in debt.
00:38:08
Speaker
And, you know, if this was, I don't know, i don't know. I just, I'm just like, gosh, that's such a fascinating thought process. It is not something I personally would want for anybody I know or love.
00:38:21
Speaker
And I think the body is a precious thing. I think a funeral is precious, but a bit similar to what's happening with the conversation of direct cremation. Funeral directors are allergic to direct cremation. They think it's sacrilegious. It's insane that it doesn't. And yet I'm like, yeah, but that maybe that's what people want. And that's OK. If that's what they want, that is OK. We're not all the same. We're not all built the same. We don't all think the same.
00:38:45
Speaker
And maybe they have services in their own way, in their own. They have ceremony and ritual in their own way. Well, I don't know. i know that this is completely insane. And you're probably like, Jen, absolutely not. It's an interesting idea. And i think that like when we talk about the body and the value of the body, I feel like the profession, we have to undo things that we have done ourselves. And I think one of it was with we created the direct cremation process.
00:39:11
Speaker
idea without properly really exploring options with people. And I think we did that back when we thought cremation wasn't here to stay, which is kind of ironic because the first crematory was built in Pennsylvania in 1898.
00:39:25
Speaker
So it's not like it just started. But there was a resistance there. And I think when you did that, you created ah pattern where, oh they want cremation. So you didn't offer them all anything else, right? You didn't offer them supplemental service or explore what ah an honorable tribute would look like for them.
Adapting to Consumer Preferences
00:39:45
Speaker
Because like you said, people, it it's not always in the chapel. it' And I think that when you can explore the essence of who the person was in that family and what in and really collaborate. And I think that's the thing too.
00:39:56
Speaker
He's a funeral director. Yes, we direct things, but it's really collaboration if you're doing it the right way. And so we're having to undo the idea that, um you know, direct cremation means that you're, like you know, we're not going to memorialize in any way or or celebrate the person or just kind of recognize the loss.
00:40:14
Speaker
And so there's that. But i when you're talking about the value of the body, it's fascinating because, you know, depending on different cultures and like what you're describing. Right. would And I think a lot it's cultural. Right.
00:40:26
Speaker
And I think that the the idea of it would have to do a lot of time. So like theoretically, let's say that that was able to be done. You'd have to find the right equipment for that. And then you'd have to find a company willing to make it.
00:40:41
Speaker
There'd be so many little things, but nobody's going to want to touch that. But like, I am a Buddhist faith. So I, you know, everything's transitional, right? And in our belief system. And, and the idea is that, you know, this body is serving me for now and then whatever happens next happens next. And I try to remind myself, like for me personally, for my family, like I have a certain way I value my body when it comes to that. However,
00:41:08
Speaker
My husband, he's Mexican-American. he was raised Catholic originally. And their culture is different. And so he will likely want to do something with my body present when I die.
00:41:20
Speaker
And so I told him whatever... And that's another thing, too, when we talk about like pre-planning is great. Pre-need is great. It is. However, you have to remember that it's not for you.
00:41:32
Speaker
it's It's for the people that are left behind you. And so sometimes I think when we go in with very rigid, structured arrangements that are finely detailed and we've done all the legwork.
00:41:45
Speaker
There's an area there where the family may want to participate or contribute and that we have to make sure we still are preserving space for that. And so like when I talk to my husband or people say, oh, I'm sure your husband knows exactly what you want.
00:41:59
Speaker
I said, honestly, it's not about what i I told him. Yes, I'd like to be cremated. Ultimately, i am a veteran. I am entitled to a space, whatever. But whatever he does before that, I don't know the circumstances of how I will die or how old I'll be or the condition of my body anything.
00:42:15
Speaker
financially where we'll be so I don't want to create expectation when I'm not going to be here to like see it through so i try to I'm kind of food with whatever people want to do and I try to be respectful like you said you know Like we with animals, you know, I worked in a shelter and they bag up the dead animals that go to the landfill or whatever it is, or like communal cremation.
00:42:40
Speaker
Like that was presented to me when my dog died and I made a choice about that. And it wasn't like this atrocious idea. But I wonder if because of history and because of the incidences that we are all aware of that did involve communal cremation when they were done in ah and horrific way, if that's thrown the idea of it in a dark, bad place. So that even if it were like an eco, like let's pretend it's the most eco-friendly option that there is and we could do it. But I'm wondering if it's already been tainted by past experiences where it's been done the like with ill intent.
00:43:16
Speaker
So... I do think it's interesting to explore that. And that's where it sort of comes into play is that even when, and and as I said, by the way, I'm not condoning anything that he did because doing anything that isn't in any form of consumer retail, and regardless of what the exchange is, if you pay somebody money,
00:43:39
Speaker
to do something, that is what you should get is exactly that. Whether it's a cremation or a burial or a dress or a sermon, whatever it is, there should be no subterfuge. There should be no sort of underlying um like criminal activity, like 100% not.
00:43:57
Speaker
But I just think it is interesting, exactly as you said, how we've built this To our own detriment, in one sense, the funeral space to be what it is and and ah and and the negative impacts. Like one thing I've tried to do over the last five years with the Glam Reaper podcast is open up different ideas and what ifs. and And it's just about being curious. It's not saying anything's right or anything is wrong. Well, certain things are wrong, but...
00:44:23
Speaker
it's It's more about being curious and leaning into that. Like I know i would get annihilated and if I compare certain griefs and I just personally don't think any grief should be compared.
00:44:36
Speaker
and I personally am huge fan of pre-planning, am but I totally agree with what you're saying that there sometimes does need to be a little bit of wiggle room. um Actually, my favorite thing when I'm doing my and pre-planning classes and workshops is hearing back from couples who are like we had totally different ideas oh my god and the development of that and actually how much closer it brings them together um but it's just I always just think it's it's quite interesting to just be curious rather than immediately going on the defense of things like this show um and all that is just be curious and sort of see well where are
00:45:14
Speaker
where in God's name did this come from and this idea and you know is there any validation in things at all and again you know not condoning any of it it's I mean it's it's just such a wild show but I do think there are other people like him out there. And while I do my level best on this show to show the good side of the funeral space, like every industry, like every space, and I know people even hate the word industry for God's sake, um is like how pedantic can you get, is there is cowboys, there is jackasses, there is horrible people in every industry.
00:45:53
Speaker
And it's about vetting your funeral home, vetting your funeral director taking care of you. And honestly, it's kind of how I even started doing what I do, actually, Jennifer, because but way back when I was a wedding planner and it took sort of two friends of mine down. My grandmother passed away. We'd lost our dog as well.
00:46:08
Speaker
and And I could not believe in Ireland where we don't actually have licensure and we don't have a board regulating us. We still do OK. But that is another topic for another day.
00:46:20
Speaker
Is that I was like, there is no event as an event planner. There is no other event in the world that I know of where you would go into the event planners, in this case, funeral home, hand over a check.
00:46:35
Speaker
Or at the time I used to say 5000 euro because that's what it was in Ireland. But hand over a check, a blank check, really, for and and just say, go for it. knock yourself out there is no other event in the world where you wouldn't be tasting the K now I know that's a different story but where you were checking vetting who the planner was vetting the venue vetting and whatever mute the musicians all of these different ass amounts And yet we do it with funeral homes.
00:47:03
Speaker
And it's just such a fascinating, you know, and again, i was back then i was curious. I was like, OK, but why? And can this be different? And how can we do this? Which is how at the time I was called say air Farewell Funeral Planners, how that was born and then how my book came out.
00:47:19
Speaker
um And so I do think it's just always ok to be curious um And it goes back to, again, when the industry started, how we put all the profit money into the casket. And now that's changing. And now we're upset with that.
00:47:33
Speaker
And again, we're, you know, not us particularly, but the industry is on the defense. And oh, well, now there's direct cremation and nobody wants these caskets. And are we supposed to make money anymore? Well, I mean, look at what happened with, I'm always getting this confused, but i'm I know Kodak and iPhone are is is a good example. But like, if you don't evolve, you dissolve. no that's true. I just came up with that.
00:47:57
Speaker
clearly going to use that one but if you don't evolve you're you're gone you're you're toast it's a very very i hope that this show brings a bit like the death doula trend which i've talked about before i hope these things because they're hitting social media which is the best way hell truth and fake news you know but it is the best way for discussions to come to the fore. And I really, truly hope that they help evolve the industry into something much better than what it currently And I hope that they provoke conversation. And, um you know, that's such a void when it comes to education, because we know that we're all going to die.
00:48:39
Speaker
and yet we don't learn anything about it until you have to. Right. So why would you not involve this in education? Right. When you're growing up, why would we not make get comfortable with it, knowing it's inevitable before we have to?
00:48:57
Speaker
And I feel like as a result of that, it really puts like a set disadvantage when it comes to having to make those decisions. And if nothing else, if people watch the show and it makes them have conversations that revolve around death or funeral home selection death,
00:49:14
Speaker
Anything in that category with each other? Like, because sometimes a couple will assume what the other wants. And then until they have that conversation, then they're like, wait a minute, what? And then they'll put it off. And then it comes, well, whoever dies first gets to pick or something. You know, the other person gets to pick.
00:49:32
Speaker
And my hope is that at least, if at ah at a minimum, if we can if it'll at least spur conversations with people, with each other, with their families, um and then regulatory
Regulatory Needs and Industry Standards
00:49:43
Speaker
agencies. And that's another thing. You know, we pay money for license renewals.
00:49:48
Speaker
Funeral establishments pay money to be properly licensed and registered and all these things. And regulatory agencies are responsible for some degree of oversight. And I think that's been kind of lax in some places, too. And I think that...
00:50:01
Speaker
That's why it's, you know, yes, the California case that happened years ago in the documentary, but there have been recent events in Texas. And I feel like as a result of that, you're going to see changes within regulatory agencies. And who do you think is going to pay for that?
00:50:16
Speaker
The licensee is more than likely. Right. So we're going to probably see and I'm not psychic by any means, but. Logically, you're going to see an increase in your costs to renew your license or obtain your license or have your funeral establishment properly licensed and registered and all these things because they're not like imagine Texas, you know, big Texas is It's like you drive and drive through Texas for days, literally. And I drove from from Seattle to Florida.
00:50:44
Speaker
one time and I felt like I was in Texas forever. and the only benefit e the benefit of being in Texas was the s speed limit was higher. But I was like, why are we still? It's huge.
00:50:55
Speaker
And when I worked for Wilbert Funeral Services, I was a South Texas marketing manager. I had a third of the state was my territory. And I mean, you would drive through nothingness for the longest.
00:51:05
Speaker
And if you're ah responsible, if you're a little regulatory agency in Austin and you're responsible for this massive state, And there's like, don't know, a handful of you working there. Like, that's not going to you're not going to pop into places effectively or you what I mean? I feel like they're going to have to look at really and not just Texas, but in a general sense, as these things, especially because the documentary correlate like all these things at the same time. It's like a perfect storm where everyone's going to look over at the regulatory agencies and say, so what are you guys do exactly?
00:51:36
Speaker
And so it's an interesting time where I foresee some changes and in that even, um um which is not a bad thing. um And that's where processes and standards and all of that is so important. And I help firms with stuff like that, you know, due diligence and processes and and standard operating procedures. That stuff's so important because then it it's not subject to change when different people come, right? You have your way of doing things.
00:52:03
Speaker
And I feel like if you work with a third party, If you need to be so careful because think about at that third party has keys and access to your building and they have employee changes, you don't even know.
00:52:14
Speaker
So you don't even know if they fire or somebody quits and still has keys or access to your codes, right? have to be so careful with stuff like that um and exercise that added level of caution when you're dealing with third parties for like cremation or or prep care or whatever it is because of that, because you're not going to be Crivey to their staffing changes and what access When I was leading a funeral home, I had when I was in Florida, i actually had a couple of chapels, a cemetery, a crematory.
00:52:44
Speaker
And every time we had a turnover of a staff person, we changed codes. And so access was always changed. And I feel like, I mean, is it, you know, tedious? Yes. But just small things like that, even. i think we just need to tighten up a little bit and and kind of pay attention.
00:53:00
Speaker
And that's it. And that's a wonderful end. to the episode is really and truly what we're ending on a we've kind of I feel like we've come full circle is basically get your education hire your standards don't be the next footage for Max to Donnery do not be that Exactly. We don't need that. The next one should be more of a, well, because we need to replace Sex and the City because that's gone down. Shut up and things like that show. Have you seen that? That's the spinoff. It doesn't have Samantha. That's terrible.
00:53:35
Speaker
Absolutely terrible. Watch The Mortician instead. and But maybe we'll have a real wives are of the funeral world or something. There's there's that. will be fashion Anyway, Jennifer, thank you so much for joining us.
00:53:48
Speaker
um I hope you all guys all learned a lot. And hopefully we'll hear from you again soon, Jennifer. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I've really enjoyed our conversation.